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View Full Version : Alt Fuel discusson, Hummer 0-60 in 6 seconds and gets 80 MPG?


Az Gardener
11-20-2007, 02:47 PM
I found an article in Fast Company magazine. The cover say's "This Mechanic can get you 100MPG today with stock parts why can't Detroit" I don't really want to discuss why Detroit isn't getting the job done I do want to get some education on what am I (or all of us ) missing here.

The guys bread and butter is taking new Hummers putting Duramax engine with the Allison transmission into Hummers. He then runs them on a blend of Diesel and used veg oil "strained through a pair of old blue jeans. This doubles the reg mileage from say 16 Mpg to 32 Mpg I guess he is using a 50/50 mix? Then he has an injection system that injects small amounts of Natural gas or ethanol this increases the horsepower tremendously.

I am not mechanically gifted so the injection part is out of my league. But I am capable of getting used oil from a local restaurant straining it with something better than blue jeans and adding it to my fuel tank. I know the cold is an issue and being here in Phoenix I think I have that problem minimized.

Anyone have any reasons this wont work for all of us with Diesel's?

lawnmaniac883
11-20-2007, 06:32 PM
Thats a complete hoax.

Kirkshire Lawn Care
11-20-2007, 06:42 PM
Hoax.....think again. Mechs have been able to tamper with mpg since intro of the car. This is worthy of usage

CPOonfinal
11-20-2007, 06:49 PM
B.S. Vegatable oil is gummy unless you remove the sugars. I suppose a person could squirt some natural gas into the intake for every compression stroke but I'm not convinced there would be a significant HP increase. I guess, to be blunt, I don't buy it.

JoeyD
11-20-2007, 07:21 PM
Can you post a link to this article? I would love to read this. I have been more and more interested in the whole bio diesel movement.

Az Gardener
11-20-2007, 08:53 PM
It is in a business magazine called "Fast Company" The guy has done Lennos and Schwartzehagers vehicles and Been on MTV pimp my ride. I will get the guys name and see what I can find, I gave the Mag to my father in law.

EMJ
11-20-2007, 09:09 PM
Propane injection increases horsepower. And I know that you can run veggie oil in a diesel. They were originally designed to run peanut oil.

CPOonfinal
11-20-2007, 09:15 PM
I've read and understand fully, biodiesel. I know today's diesels can and do run on biodiesel. However, to filter spent cooking oil through blue jeans and run it in today's H.O. diesel engine is suspect at best. Being that I've been a heavy equipment mechanic (diesel, hydraulic, gas, turbine, etc...) for 17+ years I have a, well lets say, okay understanding on how things work.

BTW, in my last post I said "Significant HP increase". Not that I don't believe HP would increase with the use of natural gas.

hosejockey2002
11-20-2007, 09:39 PM
The guy has got to be using special filtration and a preheater to run straight veggie oil in that engine. You could probably run straight biodiesel in it, but biodiesel is NOT the same as vegetable oil. There's a lot more to making biodiesel then pouring used vegetable oil through a pair of blue jeans. Natural gas, or more commonly used propane injection can make more power, sort of like using nitrous on a gas engine. Maybe it will improve your fuel mileage, but definitely not your fuel economy. When you factor in the cost of the gas injection system plus the cost of the CNG or propane itself, those costs will more than eat up any gain you get in fuel mileage.

IA_James
11-20-2007, 11:48 PM
I have serious doubts that a Hummer would be able to get 32 mpg going down a mine shaft with a tailwind, diesel or not. He might be getting 32 miles per diesel gallon, when you count the vegetable oil mixed in. But he's not getting 32 mpg. If all he's doing is filtering his oil through a pair of blue jeans, he's going to be buying new sticks, and probably a new IP, before too much longer.

Dirty Water
11-21-2007, 12:59 AM
Vegetable Oil conversion kits are readily available for a lot of vehicles. Up here in the Pacific Northwest, we have a lot of VW Jetta TDI's running around on fry oil, its a pretty liberal area.

Here is a Forum dedicated to converting vehicles, and a thread on the Duramax:

http://www.goodgrease.com/help-and-howto/duramax-6-6l-wvo-conversion

Usually it involves a separate tank, a fuel heater, and some modifications to the fuel lines.

Az Gardener
11-21-2007, 09:17 AM
Great link Mr. water. Thank you!

CPOonfinal
11-21-2007, 10:46 AM
Per the original post, the author described putting a duramax diesel and an allison transmision into a Hummer (aftermarket). Just a quick question, how much does that cost? I figure it to be around 20K. That equates to 5,700 gallons of diesel at $3.50/gal. If you consider a 30 gallon tank at 16mpg for the factory Hummer you're looking at 190 tanks of fuel at a total mileage of 91,000 miles. That's just to put the new engine and transmission in the Hummer. Hardly seems worth it.

If I were this guy, I would buy the Biodiesel plant and put it in my garage and make my own fuel. Regardless of fuel consumption I would come out WAY ahead. Lastly, you CANNOT take spent/used cooking oil and filter it through blue jeans and NOT expect to have problems in a diesel engine. Just like the two previous posts, there is a lot more to making biodiesel. The biggest thing is getting the sugars out of the oil. The next thing, water. Look, biodiesel is a good alternative to diesel. This original post is cost prohibitive and sketchy at best. JMO

MarcSmith
11-21-2007, 12:53 PM
Trust me if detroit could get that kind of mileage, and maintain power especially with fuel prices the way they are, don't you think they be doing it so they could sell a boatload of cars/trucks....

JoeyD
11-21-2007, 01:02 PM
Message Deleted

JoeyD
11-21-2007, 01:03 PM
The guy has got to be using special filtration and a preheater to run straight veggie oil in that engine. You could probably run straight biodiesel in it, but biodiesel is NOT the same as vegetable oil. There's a lot more to making biodiesel then pouring used vegetable oil through a pair of blue jeans. Natural gas, or more commonly used propane injection can make more power, sort of like using nitrous on a gas engine. Maybe it will improve your fuel mileage, but definitely not your fuel economy. When you factor in the cost of the gas injection system plus the cost of the CNG or propane itself, those costs will more than eat up any gain you get in fuel mileage.

Whats the difference in Fuel Mileage and Fuel Economy?

IA_James
11-21-2007, 01:33 PM
Whats the difference in Fuel Mileage and Fuel Economy?

Fuel mileage being how many gallons a particular vehicle is able to travel on a stated amount of fuel, usually one mile. In this case, he speaks of Fuel Economy, the cost to be able to travel the distance with the stated amount of fuel.

Example 1. Buys H1. Leaves it alone. Gets 8 mpg. He'll spend about $38k on fuel to drive 100k miles.

Example 2. Buys H1. Gets 8 mpg. Decides to buy a $7k motor and $3k tranny. Spends $500 on a home vegetable oil conversion kit. Now gets 16 mpg. Spent about $10k plus labor, plus the veggie kit, to double his mileage. While he does use less fuel, the economics of it are poor, because he would have been able to buy over 3300 gallons of gasoline. He would have been able to travel 26,400 miles on the money he spent buying this stuff. He will save approximately the cost of the conversion in 100k miles. That's assuming diesel fuel remains at approximately the same cost vs. cost ratio to gasoline.

Scag48
11-21-2007, 02:06 PM
Veggie oil strained through blue jeans? Please tell me you don't believe that load of BS. He's a top mechanic and the best straining tool he can come up with is blue jeans? LMAO. Even if this was true, the guy would be a complete idiot.

Veggie oil doesn't burn any hotter than diesel, propane injection, on the other hand, does. Sounds like this guy we're talking about is making a killing converting vehicles for morons.

There are physics calculations to determine the amount of power needed to move an object from a stop and sustain a constant speed. We did some basic calculations in my physics class last week. We were calculating the amount of energy, in watts, that were needed to get a vehicle moving and sustain its speed. I'm sure there's some sort of conversion somewhere to figure out how much fuel it would take to produce so many watts of power. 32 MPG from a Hummer doesn't seem realistic to me.

MarcSmith
11-21-2007, 02:22 PM
heck a ford escape hybrid can barely squeek out 30 mpg....

SiteSolutions
11-21-2007, 02:34 PM
Spending tons of money on the H1 doesn't seem to be out of the ordinary for some people. I doubt cost (or even mileage for economy's sake) is the objective on a Duramax swap into one of those. Being able to pass every other filling station without stopping to fill up (better range, convenience) and get from 0 to 60 in less than a half minute (better performance) seem like more likely motives.

I would bet the quip about "filtering veg oil through jeans" was just a "aw shucks" way to refer to a more elaborate scheme for making biodiesel.

And there are ways to improve the performance and economy of what comes from the factory, but it costs more in time and attention to detail. Auto manufacturers are hard pressed to not only make vehicles to basic standards but to make a LOT of them every year, hundreds or thousands every day. A good mechanic could get a lot of improvements to an individual vehicle to make it perform much better, but on a mass scale there would be no way to implement these improvements in a cost-effective way. No way I want some collective bargain guy massaging the ports or tinkering with the fuel map firmware etc... on my truck. Tuning a car or truck to an individual's specific purposes is just not something that can be done by the manufacturer.

hosejockey2002
11-21-2007, 02:59 PM
Whats the difference in Fuel Mileage and Fuel Economy?

Fuel mileage= miles per gallon

Fuel economy= miles per dollar

JoeyD
11-21-2007, 04:52 PM
Ahhhhhhh.........No such thing as Fuel Economy in Southern California!! LOL

topsites
11-21-2007, 05:06 PM
It's not a hoax but more than a few hypermiling applications are not practical when taking safety and everyday considerations into account. There are competitions out there with guys getting dang near 200mpg per gallon of fuel but we're also talking about over-inflating tires 40 and 50% past recommended... It's not just very unsafe but this won't work for everyday driving, neither will rolling through red lights when the intersection is deserted, thou both do increase mpg drastically.

I've taken trucks rated for 8-10mpg to 14 before, a lot is in the driving and the tuning of the engine (parts, specifically).

Now if you have an open mind and a bit of horse sense to keep you from plugging up your intake and your exhaust while heating the fuel (no kidding), then perhaps this site is a good place for starters:
http://gassavers.org/

I myself am a hypermiler, my most common techniques are EOC (Engine Off Coast / Glide) and DWB (Driving without Brakes).
These two techniques are likely the biggest mpg boosters, along with a very light foot, but it takes practice.

Trust me if detroit could get that kind of mileage, and maintain power especially with fuel prices the way they are, don't you think they be doing it so they could sell a boatload of cars/trucks....

No, they wouldn't.
For as long as I've been driving what comes off the assembly line is sub standard quality. Crappy 7mm ignition wires and a standard cap and rotor for starters don't even deliver 100% of the spark, maybe 80 or 90% at best... Then the air filter is usually another piece of work with corrugated duct work and other illogical air flow obstructions...

Granted an aluminum header is more expensive, but why can't they shape a steel header correctly for optimal flow to begin with, why do they stick these square exhaust manifolds on cars where air has to round sharp edges to get OUT? Why can't they smooth these things out, it's a machined application so all it would take is a one-time study and set it up and from there you get every last manifold shaped just right, hey what a stroke of genius but somehow I suspect I'm hardly the first brilliant mind. :laugh:

What would it take to get these folks to put 8mm or better yet 10mm wires on cars in the first place, a high performance cap and rotor ought to be the only thing sold anymore (it's only $5 more) and how about opening up the intake so the engine can get some air flow? Heck, a Mr. Gasket high performance filter is $20 and it improves performance you can feel, to me an engine that's optimized for performance always gets better mpg so long drivers can keep their foot off the throttle.

What are we talking about here, an extra 3-400 dollars by the time it hits the dealership, wow the car's $30,000 anyhow
so what difference does it make?

But this has been going on since at least the 60's, so unfortunately I'm far past holding my breath.

CPOonfinal
11-21-2007, 07:58 PM
Someone help me out, when was the last car, sold in America, produced using a rotor cap and rotor?

Dirty Water
11-21-2007, 09:11 PM
Someone help me out, when was the last car, sold in America, produced using a rotor cap and rotor?

I don't think TopSites has looked under the hood of a car made since '95 or so.

Intake and Exhaust manifolds have been radically tuned on most stock cars these days, they also all seem to use direct Coil on Plug ignition.

Aftermarket manifolds can actually hurt economy, There is a lot of science that goes into tuning the runner lengths. Certainly a lot more than some average joe with a die grinder trying to smooth out ports.

TopSites, modern vehicles actually have some roughness on the intake manifold and ports because it helps with fuel atomization.

wellbuilt
11-23-2007, 10:43 PM
There is a guy that is making fuel out of fry oil. It costs $39 bucks to get the info and fuel additive. His system dose not need to be cooked down. you just mix in 4 house hold supplies filter the oil , add the fuel additive and dump it in the truck.sound to good to be true (and probably is) but i think for 39 bucks it would make good reading . I am trying propane injection .I have all the parts and mite drop it in the truck on sunday.I no the propane gives you lots of extra power and that would be nice. Im hoping for more MPD. I have a ford LCF with a power stroke I get around 16 mpg.If i have a heavy load i get about 10 mpg .

Az Gardener
11-24-2007, 03:52 AM
I know someone who did the propane injection on a ford F-350 it would only work when the turbo was kicked in and it did increase his power. The only problem was he burnt up his transmission within a few months. A little too much power evidently. You might try natural gas, it is easier to ignite than the propane so possibly you could get it to work at lower speeds.

I too am probably going to try the diesel secret stuff. I blew that much money tonight on "entertainment" with -0- ROI.

topsites
11-24-2007, 11:58 AM
I don't think TopSites has looked under the hood of a car made since '95 or so.

Intake and Exhaust manifolds have been radically tuned on most stock cars these days, they also all seem to use direct Coil on Plug ignition.

Aftermarket manifolds can actually hurt economy, There is a lot of science that goes into tuning the runner lengths. Certainly a lot more than some average joe with a die grinder trying to smooth out ports.

You speak the same language the dealers speak which tells me that's likely where you got it from, but that's like a sheep asking the wolf if it's true that wolves eat sheep... For direct coil to work you need 8 coils for an 8 cylinder and I have seen a FEW like that, the '91 bmw 318 came with it but are they high performance coils and are the wires 8+mm? We'll never know, bmw won't let anyone make aftermarket wires or coils, so there's no comparison testing.
Most likely they're not and don't even start with the garbage about factory wires are so good because they're not, in the case of the bmw at the tune of $300 a set they might be but for every other car it's just the dealer talking because he wants to sell the vehicle, to you or anyone else comes along asking, of course your car is different but everyone else's is not, yeah right.

Why would I believe a new car is better, of course it's newer so that helps, but in and of itself that's not enough.
I have 400 horses in mine and get 11mpg with a gross empty weight of 3.61 tons, and I suspect the luxury cost me (club cab and a/c) but my 1986 outfit only weighed 2.7 tons empty (with trailer) so you're going to convince me the aluminum and plastics made my newer truck lighter, and if in 9 years no improvement was made that it did happen in the past 12 when it hasn't happened since cars first started being manufactured?

LOL!

Of course the vehicles have more power and to a point better mpg, rail injections and computers take care of that, as do larger engines, but that's all they've ever done is stick a bigger engine under the hood AND dump more fuel down the throat, then spout off technological nonsense to make the uneducated believe that somehow a miracle has happened when in reality nothing has changed, so why would things change now?

I'll take a look sometime, but I already know I'm wasting my time expecting to see something other than what I already suspect is under there, and on that note I'm not even bothering because I don't get paid enough to waste my time.

CPOonfinal
11-24-2007, 12:10 PM
My head hurts.......

GravelyNut
11-24-2007, 01:46 PM
You speak the same language the dealers speak which tells me that's likely where you got it from, but that's like a sheep asking the wolf if it's true that wolves eat sheep... For direct coil to work you need 8 coils for an 8 cylinder and I have seen a FEW like that, the '91 bmw 318 came with it but are they high performance coils and are the wires 8+mm? We'll never know, bmw won't let anyone make aftermarket wires or coils, so there's no comparison testing.
Most likely they're not and don't even start with the garbage about factory wires are so good because they're not, in the case of the bmw at the tune of $300 a set they might be but for every other car it's just the dealer talking because he wants to sell the vehicle, to you or anyone else comes along asking, of course your car is different but everyone else's is not, yeah right.

Why would I believe a new car is better, of course it's newer so that helps, but in and of itself that's not enough.
I have 400 horses in mine and get 11mpg with a gross empty weight of 3.61 tons, and I suspect the luxury cost me (club cab and a/c) but my 1986 outfit only weighed 2.7 tons empty (with trailer) so you're going to convince me the aluminum and plastics made my newer truck lighter, and if in 9 years no improvement was made that it did happen in the past 12 when it hasn't happened since cars first started being manufactured?

LOL!

Of course the vehicles have more power and to a point better mpg, rail injections and computers take care of that, as do larger engines, but that's all they've ever done is stick a bigger engine under the hood AND dump more fuel down the throat, then spout off technological nonsense to make the uneducated believe that somehow a miracle has happened when in reality nothing has changed, so why would things change now?

I'll take a look sometime, but I already know I'm wasting my time expecting to see something other than what I already suspect is under there, and on that note I'm not even bothering because I don't get paid enough to waste my time.
You want to come look at my 2001 Silverado 3500? 8.1L V-8 and has a coil for each cylinder. Yep, that's right, 8 of them. And it came that way from the factory. Best mileage to date is in the 14-15 MPG range with a load. And that is a truck that weighs in empty at 3.5 tons. I've driven a van ( 1977 Chevy Caravan ) with a 350 that couldn't get that good a mileage, empty. My 1991 G-20 with a 5.7L only got a best of 20MPG empty and weighed 1/2 what this truck does. Things have changed. The 77 and the 2001 both have the same rearend gearing too. 4.10:1.

GravelyNut
11-24-2007, 01:56 PM
As for filtering veggie oil thru denim, check back in your history of the Diesel engines and you might find filters for the fuel that used cotton waste for filtering. That waste came from the mills that made blue jeans. Running veggie in a Diesel has been done for a long time. Straight sunflower oil was tried in JD tractors over 20 years ago. Result, cleaner running engine and better performance too.

hosejockey2002
11-24-2007, 06:27 PM
I don't think TopSites has looked under the hood of a car made since '95 or so.

I think you're right. My '93 Explorer has coil packs. Nearly all cars and trucks made now do.

Az Gardener
12-01-2007, 03:02 AM
I finally got the mag back from pops. I googled the guy, Johnathon Goodwin, and there are pages of his stuff. Here is the link to the fast company article I read. http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/120/motorhead-messiah.html

PROPERTYLAWNSERVICELLC
08-30-2011, 11:09 PM
http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/trucks/0608dp_2006_hummer_h1_alpha/viewall.html

Theres a reveiw of the 6.6 duromax in they only get 12ish mpg 30 would highly unlikely with engine running atleast.
If you had unlimited amounts of money I guess almost any thing could be possible .

punt66
08-30-2011, 11:14 PM
http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/trucks/0608dp_2006_hummer_h1_alpha/viewall.html

Theres a reveiw of the 6.6 duromax in they only get 12ish mpg 30 would highly unlikely with engine running atleast.
If you had unlimited amounts of money I guess almost any thing could be possible .

this thread is 4 years old :drinkup:

JDiepstra
08-30-2011, 11:19 PM
this thread is 4 years old :drinkup:

Haha yeah and the claims are still bs :laugh:

Patriot Services
11-19-2014, 12:17 PM
Winter time. Time to bring up old topics and see if anybody has any new,updated or personal input on the topics. This subforum is one of my favorites as I feel its the inevitable future and deserves looking at now.
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