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cat2
11-20-2007, 06:02 PM
I was talking to this guy he works construction, he runs a Cat mini excavator and a Cat skid steer. Thats all those guys run is Cat. He said he isn't impressed with the Cat machines. And the service isn't that good either. One time Cat had to come out and fix something, and he was really rude. He said they are seeing more and more John deere skid steers and equipment. Out his way

bobcat_ron
11-20-2007, 06:43 PM
It's all in the dealership's attitudes.

cat2
11-20-2007, 06:48 PM
got that right:)

Fieldman12
11-20-2007, 07:01 PM
Deere is doing very, very well around here with skid steers, CTL's and mini excavators. Deere, Cat, Bobcat is the tops around here.

Scag48
11-20-2007, 07:38 PM
Depends on the dealer. Cat here is the best there is.

PerfectEarth
11-20-2007, 07:43 PM
Just today, we had a new (not in production yet for the next year) CT332 Deere demo dropped off- with a survey and everything. We had to sign confidentiality papers so that we wouldn't leak anything!

We had the similar Cat machine last week- and so far, we like the Deere much better. We didn't care for our Cat treatment much.... The Deere machine is a BEAST. I like the door style too- flip-up.

bobcat_ron
11-20-2007, 07:44 PM
Same here, There are 2 Bobcat Dealers, one is good and the other is not so good, I'd say worse but I'm afraid they are tracking my movements.

Dirt Digger2
11-20-2007, 07:47 PM
...thats why we don't buy Cats...that and they are one of the most expensive machines to fix...we have our radiator pulled out of the 955L right now and cat wants well over $2000 just for a new core...if you want a great machine with excellent dealer support around my area you go Case

Fieldman12
11-20-2007, 08:37 PM
I am not really what I would say die hard loyal to any brand. I will say that Cat, Deere, and Case are my top choices for equipment with Cat being my over all favorite. I could run other brands though such as Takeuchi, Bobcat, New holland, Komatsu, and Volvo. Really all of these brands mentioned have at least one piece of equipment they make that is really good. I go for not having to drive far to get parts, descent price on most parts, having a good service department if I do need them to work on it and resale. Deere still does not have the greatest resale on skid steers but I look at it this way. Who ever orginally bought my machine took the biggest hit. I have been pricing my machine and it still is worth about the same money I paid for it a year ago. Case and Bobcat have really good resale on there skid steers.

dozerman21
11-20-2007, 09:17 PM
Just today, we had a new (not in production yet for the next year) CT332 Deere demo dropped off- with a survey and everything. We had to sign confidentiality papers so that we wouldn't leak anything!

We had the similar Cat machine last week- and so far, we like the Deere much better. We didn't care for our Cat treatment much.... The Deere machine is a BEAST. I like the door style too- flip-up.

I won't ask you what info you're not allowed to talk about... just tell me how it's different than the current CT332?:)

PerfectEarth
11-20-2007, 09:21 PM
I think the interior controls are different and the hp is in the 90's now....

Construct'O
11-20-2007, 09:25 PM
Just today, we had a new (not in production yet for the next year) CT332 Deere demo dropped off- with a survey and everything. We had to sign confidentiality papers so that we wouldn't leak anything!

We had the similar Cat machine last week- and so far, we like the Deere much better. We didn't care for our Cat treatment much.... The Deere machine is a BEAST. I like the door style too- flip-up.

Interesting !!!!!! Care too fill in the blanks? If it is confidential why did they let you have it to demo? Thats why they have proving grounds.

If they are letting customers demo then there went the confidentiality looks like to me.:rolleyes:

If their wanting feed back from customers before production ,does that mean there is changes still in the making?

It's good to hear you got a chance to demo at least two of the brands.Demo some of the others,then report back!

Also would like to hear about Cat treatment? Was they testy about demoing other machines or what:confused:If so they need to get over that.

Good luck:usflag:

P.Services
11-20-2007, 09:25 PM
I think the interior controls are different and the hp is in the 90's now....

you think didnt you run it??? i want all the info come on man please please please send me a pm i swear i wont tell

qps
11-20-2007, 09:28 PM
Same ole threads...mine is better....there service sucks...blah...blah...blah.....:hammerhead:

PerfectEarth
11-20-2007, 09:49 PM
We were given the machine after another company (a tree company/ large, large land clearing company we do business with) demo-ed it. So we have a connection.

Guys, I'm no pro on this stuff- and no where near as knowledgeable on MTLs as most of you are

We were told they wanted to know EVERYTHING about the machine we liked and hated. Aparently, they can plug adjustments into a computer and tune the CT... It came with a neat little "sales" book, comparing the rival loaders. Gonna flip thru it tomorrow. And a DVD...

I have not run it yet honestly, the boss man did- said it was jerky (very sensitive) but strong. The tracks seem to be much less complex and easier to adjust than the CAT.

The CAT guys were at times "rude" on the phone when we needed service.

The Deere came with a bucket and a Bradco landclearing attachment.

Fieldman12
11-20-2007, 09:59 PM
I know Deere does some of this with there AG machinery. Allot of there big customers such as custom harvesters often get to run some of the stuff that is not too far away from production. What better way to find out what future customers think than to give it to one of these guys that sets in them almost around the clock. They will be able to tell ya what needs changed and so on. Granted they dont always find everything but neither does countless hours of testing in a lab type environment.

P.Services
11-20-2007, 10:04 PM
did it have piolt controls?

qps
11-20-2007, 10:19 PM
We were given the machine after another company (a tree company/ large, large land clearing company we do business with) demo-ed it. So we have a connection.

Guys, I'm no pro on this stuff- and no where near as knowledgeable on MTLs as most of you are

We were told they wanted to know EVERYTHING about the machine we liked and hated. Aparently, they can plug adjustments into a computer and tune the CT... It came with a neat little "sales" book, comparing the rival loaders. Gonna flip thru it tomorrow. And a DVD...

I have not run it yet honestly, the boss man did- said it was jerky (very sensitive) but strong. The tracks seem to be much less complex and easier to adjust than the CAT.

The CAT guys were at times "rude" on the phone when we needed service.

The Deere came with a bucket and a Bradco landclearing attachment.


Have disagree on the difficulty of the controls on the CAT, if you can't push a button to a setting from one to nine to control the speed...well :hammerhead:...don't get to wrapped up in sales books and numbers on a piece of paper...use it...that tell's the tale....I tried a 332 and liked it...alot...except for the out dated CASE controls....(KSSS will be all over me for that one)....:laugh:

PerfectEarth
11-20-2007, 10:27 PM
The controls are the same as the CAT- boom and bucket on right and machine direction on left. SORRY- I was probably unclear in a previous post where i said "controls are different" or some thing like that.... I meant- I think the displays and "buttons" are different.

Again, I somewhat new to the MTL game so take what I say with a grain of salt!

minimax
11-20-2007, 10:31 PM
Are cat dealer sucks big time up here I tryed to get a price on a 303.5 last year four times and never could get one???
Are deere dealer is great up here,I"m demo a CT322 this weekend.

minimax

Scag48
11-20-2007, 11:04 PM
Are cat dealer sucks big time up here I tryed to get a price on a 303.5 last year four times and never could get one???
Are deere dealer is great up here,I"m demo a CT322 this weekend.

minimax

We were working across from Cascade this summer and the Cat guy showed up, asked Nesje why he went with Yanmar Vio55 instead of Cat as he was looking all all the machines available. He told the guy straight up that their service is no good and the guy begged and pleaded for him to rent stuff from them. Sounds like NC on the westside sucks terribly, Pape is eating there lunch up there. NC out of Tukwilla isn't bad and NC in Wenatchee blows the doors off Pape in Wenatchee. Guess it just depends on where you're at.

AWJ Services
11-21-2007, 08:44 AM
The controls are the same as the CAT- boom and bucket on right and machine direction on left.

Pilot Control?

bobcat_ron
11-21-2007, 10:20 AM
Pilot controls = joysticks control.

YellowDogSVC
11-21-2007, 10:33 AM
Same here, There are 2 Bobcat Dealers, one is good and the other is not so good, I'd say worse but I'm afraid they are tracking my movements.

You can be sure they are reading your posts.

bobcat_ron
11-21-2007, 10:35 AM
That explains the sudden drive by's with white Ford Pickups at the beginning and end of every day..........

P.Services
11-21-2007, 11:19 AM
do you guys not know what the f pilot controls are??

Scag48
11-21-2007, 12:52 PM
do you guys not know what the f pilot controls are??

Probably more so than most people. Do you know what pilot controls are? And don't say joystick controls because that is NOT the correct answer. Thanks for playing.

bobcat_ron
11-21-2007, 01:53 PM
Pilot controls got their name from.....Pilots. Duh.

Scag48
11-21-2007, 02:04 PM
Pilot controls got their name from.....Pilots. Duh.

Hahaha, yeah...:waving:

You got that new 247 yet?

bobcat_ron
11-21-2007, 02:07 PM
Some time today, temporary insurance had to filled and PDI before I can try the demo out.

AWJ Services
11-21-2007, 03:18 PM
I was asking if the JD he demoed had Pilot controls not what they were.

Maybe a litttle lesson in reading comprehension.:rolleyes:

cat2
11-21-2007, 03:35 PM
The Deere dealer has been great. One of the bobcat dealers up here were like Duh:dizzy: there was one nice guy in there. Anyway i orderd a part for my 753 never got it, checked up on it they said its going in the mail today. Still never got it to this day and thats been like 2 years ago. So I moved on to the next close bobcat dealer and they are great thats were I bought my s-160. There awsome there. I just call them up tell them what I need and they ship it right out. I really don't have time to drive down there its like 70 miles one way.

P.Services
11-21-2007, 05:16 PM
Pilot controls = joysticks control.

this is why i asked if you guys know what pilot controls are. i think one of my first questions to him was if it has them or not. i just spoke to a salesman, electric over hydro pilots, in the 90's for hp and a pressurized cab in 09.

P.Services
11-21-2007, 05:20 PM
I was asking if the JD he demoed had Pilot controls not what they were.

Maybe a litttle lesson in reading comprehension.:rolleyes:

i was asking the same thing on the second page to, maybe a little lesson in reading. he stated they "were like cat controls" and then a later post said pilot controls=joystick. what ever that means. thats why i asked if he knew what the f they are. its a yes no question.

AWJ Services
11-21-2007, 06:48 PM
i was asking the same thing on the second page to, maybe a little lesson in reading. he stated they "were like cat controls" and then a later post said pilot controls=joystick. what ever that means. thats why i asked if he knew what the f they are. its a yes no question.

Was not necessarily directed at you.

I was actually reiterating your original question.

crab
11-21-2007, 07:10 PM
Geeez were getting a little pissy tonight,its not like i insulted gravel rat or something.Happy thanks giving to all ,even those in the northern empire.:canadaflag:

Scag48
11-23-2007, 03:21 AM
this is why i asked if you guys know what pilot controls are. i think one of my first questions to him was if it has them or not. i just spoke to a salesman, electric over hydro pilots, in the 90's for hp and a pressurized cab in 09.

Electric over hydraulic pilot controls do not exist.

Pilot controls are small, miniature valves below the joystick that control the larger pump block that provides flow to various circuits on the machine. Electric over hydraulic controls removes that miniature hydraulic system and uses electrical signals instead to determine motion in the joysticks. Since pilot controls are hydraulic, essentially, they have feedback and feeling to them. There is zero feel, or less anyway, in electric over hydraulic.

SiteSolutions
11-23-2007, 09:40 AM
Electric over hydraulic pilot controls do not exist.

Pilot controls are small, miniature valves below the joystick that control the larger pump block that provides flow to various circuits on the machine. Electric over hydraulic controls removes that miniature hydraulic system and uses electrical signals instead to determine motion in the joysticks. Since pilot controls are hydraulic, essentially, they have feedback and feeling to them. There is zero feel, or less anyway, in electric over hydraulic.

From my experience, I would say little feedback in pilots, and NONE in Electric over hydraulic.

P.Services
11-23-2007, 06:10 PM
Electric over hydraulic pilot controls do not exist.



oh but they do. the new ct332 has them and bobcat is going to them in 09. call your deere salesman and he can tell you also.

Tigerotor77W
11-23-2007, 08:45 PM
oh but they do. the new ct332 has them and bobcat is going to them in 09. call your deere salesman and he can tell you also.

I'm going out on a limb because I'm repeating what Scag just said (and you just denied), but EH pilots? That doesn't make much sense to me... it would add some level of feedback into the controls, but I can't see it being cheaper than using straight pilots or straight EH.

EH controls alone, of course -- Bobcat's already got them, and I wouldn't be surprised if they made them standard.

YellowDogSVC
11-23-2007, 09:26 PM
Electric over hydraulic pilot controls do not exist.

Pilot controls are small, miniature valves below the joystick that control the larger pump block that provides flow to various circuits on the machine. Electric over hydraulic controls removes that miniature hydraulic system and uses electrical signals instead to determine motion in the joysticks. Since pilot controls are hydraulic, essentially, they have feedback and feeling to them. There is zero feel, or less anyway, in electric over hydraulic.

what about the sensation of feedback similar to a highend joystick for a computer game? I'm sure that something could be developed that would provide the feel and feedback. I know that some of the mini submersibles have that feedback in the joysticks to help the operators navigate. Could that not be applied to a skidsteer?

bobcat_ron
11-23-2007, 09:27 PM
Feed back blows.

I ran the new 247 today an I never want feed back again, gives me the shakes.

AWJ Services
11-23-2007, 10:21 PM
Feed back blows.

I ran the new 247 today an I never want feed back again, gives me the shakes.

Amen Brother.

I like driving with my fingers.:)

P.Services
11-23-2007, 11:30 PM
all im doing is repeating exactly what i was told by three diffrent deere dealers, im not the expert at all on this. but i have heard it over and over again from deere.

Scag48
11-24-2007, 12:50 AM
oh but they do. the new ct332 has them and bobcat is going to them in 09. call your deere salesman and he can tell you also.

Sorry dude, the salesmen you are talking to are seriously misinformed. They obviously doesn't understand the systems used in the equipment well enough. Why combine electric controls with pilots? With what you're saying, there would be two control systems instead of one sending iinformation to the pumps, more stuff to screw up when you only need one. It's either pilot controls (small hydraulic signals) or E/H (complete electrical signals), combining them makes absolutely no sense.

The push for E/H was reliability, relatively zero moving parts. The downside is the lack of feeling in the sticks. I understand that you could essentially piggyback a pilot system and an E/H system to control the main pumps, but I see zero reason, you have twice as much going on to produce the same action that could be easily done with one system alone. Doesn't make sense to me. If this is true, Deere is seriously shooting themselves in the foot, I cannot see any advantage to having that setup. This is assuming your salesmen are correct, which I doubt, because guys toss "pilot" controls around all day and they really don't understand what the word pilot means when talking about equipment joysticks.

As far as E/H goes, I hear the new C series Cat's aren't too bad for feeling in the sticks. Can you imagine running an excavator with E/H and you couldn't feel anything? No resistance in the sticks at all? Next time you're on an excavator, barely push the stick or boom stick and feel how you can either move it a little or a lot given how hard you push on the sticks. You can get it all the way to down to the point where it barely moves, but still is moving. With E/H, this hasn't happened yet. It's either moving 100% or not at all, no feathering whatsoever. It also works the other way, when the machine becomes in contact with an object, the reverse happens. You feel the lines stop or slow doing the movement of fluid, pushing that all the way back up through the pilot controls in the joysticks. This allows you to feel when you've hit something even if you're operating blindfolded, aside from feeling the machine rocking and moving, etc.. I believe the fault in current E/H is the lack of pulse modulation in the electrical signals. There is no measurement for how hard you're pushing that joystick, it either reads on or off. I've studied this through digital music instrument technology, heavy equipment has no adopted this electrical stuff quite yet but I think it will get there.

Tigerotor77W
11-24-2007, 12:22 PM
all im doing is repeating exactly what i was told by three diffrent deere dealers, im not the expert at all on this. but i have heard it over and over again from deere.

And I'll believe for the moment that Deere's got something going -- and I promise not to shoot the messenger if this isn't what actually happens.

As far as EH feedback goes, there's a very slight possibility that something of combining two systems is what's going on -- the Boeing 777 (albeit on an entirely different price game) has feedback in its yoke even though the plane is fly-by-wire. That being said, a pilot asking for an idea of whether his plane is about to fall out of the sky is a little different than a contractor asking for some indication of what he's pushing. But maybe the technology's come down in price enough to make a difference? I guess we'll find out in '09.

Construct'O
11-25-2007, 04:51 PM
I found this on another site,it was in the backhoe section,but this is probabaly the new system they are going to be using in the new CTL and skid that was demo.Might shed a little more light on to the first part of this thread.:usflag:

Going on to the new Total Machine Control option on the J series. A friend just traded for a 310SJ w/TMC, the technology is impressive but it's a totally different world verses a standard control machine. I had a very hard time getting use to it. I spent very little time on it though. It was as if you were in front of your computer with 2 computer joysticks. No feel or feedback.

The machine has 3 work modes, low/medium/fast. Its hard to find the right "spot" to be. I have never seen a backhoe so fast. 1/4 throttle and it will move faster than any backhoe Ive ever seen on the back end.

On this machine you loose the ability to be able feel the valves open and be able to cushin your movements. Standard pilot controls don't have the same feel and response as mechanical controls but still give feedback. TMC to me has it's own brain, you just tell it what to do.

AWJ Services
11-25-2007, 05:33 PM
My TL140 has a thumb lever that runs an electric over hyd valve for the aux and it is infinitely variable.
It works great and feedback is way overrated.
I think the major stepping stone is if you are used to the feedback and then not having it any longer.

bobcat_ron
11-25-2007, 05:41 PM
I thought having no feed back on my 247 MTL would be an issue, especially with the anti stall, but after sitting for a year on a D4 Hystat with joy stick control, I find feed back irrelevant to what I'm doing, if the bull dozer wasn't pushing fast enough, just step up the speed some more, no biggie.