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Gravel Rat
11-23-2007, 04:25 PM
Watching the news last night and the slowing economy in the US is affecting the forestry based communities. The lumber sales to the states is falling off because the construction industry in the USA is slowed down to nothing. A community like where I live is going to be affect pretty good.

If the loggers get laid off they are not spending any money. Parts stores and business that cater to the forest industry will have to lay people off. Another industry that will be affected will be the gravel mines because quite abit of gravel is barged to the USA close to 10,000 or more tons a month just from one mine. Less production at the mines more job losses another higher paying jobs gone.

The economists say you guys south of the boarder are in for a recession how about getting Bush to spend some money on your own country than overseas. Your country is 9 trillion dollars in debt :eek:

Not good news there will be quite a few famillies in this area alone will be hurting this winter if they loose their jobs. The repo man might be knocking on the door of some of these guys because they are my age just bought a house have 2000-2500 a month house payment and a familly to feed. There will be lots of equipment operators looking for work that are used to making 24 to 30 dollars per hour. There might be allot of used equipment on the market if there is no work for it.

RockSet N' Grade
11-23-2007, 04:31 PM
One of my favorite movies is Kelly's Hero's. Odd-ball, the tank driver, keeps telling one of his crew "that ya have to adjust your attitude, 'cause your negative vibes are killin' me". In this case, as in the last and the one before that..........second verse same as the first. Another good one that comes to mind is the story of Chicken Little. If this response seems trite, it is .....

qps
11-23-2007, 05:38 PM
It's been a couple of months since we've had a economy thread from GR....:cool2:

AWJ Services
11-23-2007, 06:56 PM
It's been a couple of months since we've had a economy thread from GR

Has it been that long?
Seems like Yesterday.:hammerhead:

RockSet N' Grade
11-23-2007, 07:23 PM
:cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry: :cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry: :cry::cry::cry:

Dirty Water
11-23-2007, 07:47 PM
http://fallingsky.blogs.com/falling_sky/_2007_06_sky-is-falling.jpg

wanabe
11-23-2007, 08:28 PM
All of the US is not having a recesion. Home building is down a little bit in my area, but the big construction is not. In fact is is crazy. Local labor hall is going to be out of help in a very short peroid and is ready to hire anyone off the street. Anyone who wants to work can and will have a job. The lumber market has been slow for the last 2 years. I put over 100 lumber cars in the storage yard last summer and they are still have weeds growing up arround them.

bobcat_ron
11-23-2007, 09:16 PM
Me personally, I like to live one equipment payment to the next, but I also enjoy wearing tin foil on my head to keep the aliens from taking my thoughts.

Gravel Rat
11-24-2007, 01:32 AM
There is already 200 guys out of a job this month on Vancouver island because the lumber sales to the West Coast of USA is slowed right down. The logging contractors in my area are struggling for work because there is no lumber sales so no point in cutting the trees down.

When the logging is slow equipment sales are slow you will see the dealers and salesman take a big hit. The forest industry alone accounts for 50% of the sales at equipment dealers with large machines. Forestry contractors will buy couple excavators in a year to replace old machines. When they are buying brandnew 35 and 45 ton excavators thats a big amount of money.

The fuel the forestry contractors buy from the fuel suppliers will also drop off. On the average a logging contractor buys 20-25,000 dollars a month in diesel fuel. A bush fuel truck holds 10,000 dollars worth of fuel most contractors go through that pretty quick. Each 350 Excavator goes through 120 gallons of fuel every 2.5 days. The helicopter logging operations go through 10,000 imperial gallons of Jet fuel like nothing.

Tire dealers are another store that will see some business drop off. A example one tridrive logging truck can eat up a set of 12 drive tires in 3 months at 4500 dollars. Set of supersingle steers at 2000 every 8 months and a set of trailer tires every year another 4500 dollars. One truck needs about 15,000 dollars in tires each year. The off highway trucks are about 45,000 a year for tires but those tires are 2500 each the 10 on the truck and 8 on the trailer.

Anyhow I laugh when I see you guys that are turning a blind eye to the problem and maybe you guys should get your president to do something about it. Stats on the net there is 3.1 million manufacturing jobs lost in the USA. House forclosures and the repo man knocking on your door. In the Washington state there is something like 3100 foreclosed properties forsale. California is seeing the biggest drop and the problem with that is B.C. sells lots of wood products to California and millions of tons of gravel is sold to California.

For guys like Bobcat ron the economy in the Lowermainland is good because there is lots of stupid people out there buying houses for redicolous prices driving the housing market. People are buying condos etc that are not even built yet. The cheapest house now in Vancouver is 500,000 dollars. A condo is 350,000. The work in Vancouver to the Valley will probably last till 2011 then after that ?

You can move to Vancouver to get a job but there is no affordable places to rent or live. You can rent a basement suite for over 1000 a month and its probably a dump. Vancouver is one of the most expensive Cities to live in.

I'am watching the economy because I want to go back to construction again but if the job market is going to be short lived I don't want to leave a full time job. When the forestry jobs disapear then there will be 150 guys in the area looking for work. The housing market has already slowed and almost stopped so nail pounding jobs are hard to find. The developers have stopped spending money because they are not getting any returns (no house sales).

Working for a excavation contractor is not a option because they are having hard enough time right now keeping the employees they got working. The trucking companies have seen the freight hauling work dropped off.

The niche market is non existant. Excavation contactors are doing everything now it used to be mini excavating was a niche market not any more. What I used to do was a niche market now every landscaper does it.

Ride out the winter and see what happens if the housing market stays the way it is then it won't look good for the guys in the construction industry. Its hard to make equipment payments on work levels we seen in the 90s.

The gravy train is over it is back to normal work wise but the cost of houses are still 100,000 to 200,000 overpriced still no affordable housing available. Community events are canceled because there is no places for visitors to stay. The motels and accomodations have been knocked down and turned into expensive housing developments. Tourists in the summer time have no places to stay. Resorts that people used to stay at are gone.

The B.C. gov't needs to make minimum wage 14 dollars per hour heck 21 dollars per hour like I make is poverty level.

If the Canadian dollar keeps rising we can call the USA Mexico pretty soon :laugh:

qps
11-24-2007, 07:58 AM
If you put half as much effort in working than complaining you might get out of your parents driveway...and your camper....or R.V.:rolleyes:..I'd step lightly about knocking the U.S. to much....:usflag:

SiteSolutions
11-24-2007, 09:03 AM
Anyhow I laugh when I see you guys that are turning a blind eye to the problem and maybe you guys should get your president to do something about it.

You want us to fix your broken local economy?

You should spend more time working or looking for work instead of wasting your time on here.

dozerman21
11-24-2007, 09:24 AM
:eek:It sounds like things here are almost as bad as British Columbia! I guess we should wave the white flag and give up... sorry, we don't work like that!:usflag:

AWJ Services
11-24-2007, 11:20 AM
If the Canadian dollar keeps rising we can call the USA Mexico pretty soon

It really does not matter what our dollar is worth in Canada.
It only matters what it is worth were you spend it.
I will happily take our Mexico over being grown and living with my parents.It is obvious our money will buy more from listening too you.

In reality a recession is no more than everyone stops spending money.I mean do you think this money that everyone has been spending just disappears.
I have seen it here in Atlanta 2 other times in my Lifetime.
The last major one was the late 80's.
This one will pass as well.:usflag:

bobcat_ron
11-24-2007, 11:29 AM
Let's hope it passes like gas, but not SBD ones though.

Fieldman12
11-24-2007, 02:27 PM
There is a problem in the USA with the economy right now. Allot of people especially around here are spending old money. What I mean by that is money they made when things where good in the economy. It has really affected the middle income people more than anything. Some of the richer people have noticed it some but not that bad. Allot of people that lost the houses should have never had them in the first place. Yes there is people in there that did lose there good paying job and so on but allot of them where stretched too thin on there bills anyway. The thing is we don't give up. All you can do is suck in your gut and put your nose to the grind stone. First thing you should do is see if there is any bills you can do away with such as cable tv or what ever else. Then take a look at all your bills, how much you have put away, and what you got coming in. Figure out what best works for you. If you can pay off some small bills that will eventually put money in your pocket and you still have some cash left in case something breaks or what ever than do it. Main goal is like the old saying. You need to pay yourself first. Each week we need to be putting money away in case something happens and don't forget retirement some day. I would rather live with not so nice of thing then to have to worry every day how Im going to survive.

YellowDogSVC
11-24-2007, 03:16 PM
I have to agree that a recession is coming. I am trying to get out of debt both personally and commercially in an effort to run lean while things play out in the states.
As far as Bush spending money overseas.. Yeah, he spends way too much on AIDS in Africa and new pavement in Afghanistan and doesn't get reimbursed like he should, but if the US doesn't do it, who will? Capitalism is what will keep our enemies in check and it takes money to make money. I just wish old W would lend like a banker instead of giving like a charity. Unfortunately, bombs break things and this Country has always fixed the things it breaks and makes it better as a long-term strategy (think Germany and Japan). I think we should use oil revenues from Iraq and tax the Saudis for all the protection we afford their oil fields by merely having a presence overseas..but that will never happen.
Yes, a recession is coming. Haven't seen it here, yet, but things are slowing in certain predicatable sectors like the oil fields, housing market, and related service industries. I can feel it. I did okay during the last slow down but I was running lean back then. The in between years have seen my bills grow as I have upgraded machines and tried new services but the writing is on the wall... get out of debt now and ride out the impending slow down.

bobcat_ron
11-24-2007, 04:04 PM
Isn't all this doom and gloom just because of Winter's approach??

YellowDogSVC
11-24-2007, 04:10 PM
Isn't all this doom and gloom just because of Winter's approach??

I don't think so. I'm usually busy in winter. I have seen the forecasts of the housing market and related industries and it just looks slow. Less houses means less durable goods, etc. Higher fuel prices will eventually slow some projects and put others on hold and it is a snowball effect. High consumer debt isn't good either. The higher the debt of the country is, the less it's currency will be worth and that can be bad in a global economy where the cost of overseas goods will increase.

I woudn't call it doom and gloom. I would call it prudence. There are going to be people hurting if they do not get their debt under control and there is a slowdown. If there is a true recession, it could mean scarce work especially for the building trades. My take is that while there will be a general slow down, the retiring baby boomers that have invested wisely and can ride out a recession, will be in a position to build and that will keep some people working at full capacity. Other, less efficient operators may find it difficult to pay their bills and keep the doors open. It's just a cycle thing. We have these cycles of good times and not as good times. It's just part of a growing economy.

YellowDogSVC
11-24-2007, 04:12 PM
There is a problem in the USA with the economy right now. Allot of people especially around here are spending old money. What I mean by that is money they made when things where good in the economy. It has really affected the middle income people more than anything. Some of the richer people have noticed it some but not that bad. Allot of people that lost the houses should have never had them in the first place. Yes there is people in there that did lose there good paying job and so on but allot of them where stretched too thin on there bills anyway. The thing is we don't give up. All you can do is suck in your gut and put your nose to the grind stone. First thing you should do is see if there is any bills you can do away with such as cable tv or what ever else. Then take a look at all your bills, how much you have put away, and what you got coming in. Figure out what best works for you. If you can pay off some small bills that will eventually put money in your pocket and you still have some cash left in case something breaks or what ever than do it. Main goal is like the old saying. You need to pay yourself first. Each week we need to be putting money away in case something happens and don't forget retirement some day. I would rather live with not so nice of thing then to have to worry every day how Im going to survive.

good advice. Everyone should read "total money makeover" by Dave Ramsey. It's only 10 bucks and is a good plan for getting finances under control so that you can ride out the not so good times.

Gravel Rat
11-25-2007, 12:31 AM
This is one of the slowest winters in 4 years it started in summer it is almost worse than before the boom started back in 2002.

The B.C. economy relies on the US economy allot more than most other provinces besides Ontario. The B.C. economy can't keep going on building houses for baby boomers it doesn't work. Its already starting to show those signs.

See what happens after this winter but I have a feeling things won't be busy like it was 2 years ago. Back then contractors were so busy you were put on a waiting list for months. Money was flowing around the area like water and money was no option it was just do it.

I don't know what is going to happen with the local contractors I know most of them if they could get out of the excavation business they would. The stress is really high the homeowners have become dead beats at paying. The contractors do a job and get paid 2-3 months later. Some of these jobs are not small they are like 50-60 grand just for septic systems. I have known some of these guys for 20 years.

YellowDogSVC
11-25-2007, 12:41 AM
I do not like slow pays either. All I can tell you is keep positive and get out of debt by sacrificing. I have had to curtail raises and such in favor of paying off good equipment. I make an okay living but have excellent benefits and great equipment but it has meant sacrifices especially in preparation of an economic slowdown that I have seen coming for at least a year. I have had to do jobs I don't want or like and had to save and forego purchases in an effort to pay off very large notes. I have been beating the drum to friends and family but I'm not negative about it. I am simply trying to be prepared much like the ant and the grasshopper parable.
I know that Canada and the US need each other. If it is up to bush and his friends, it will truly be a mexicanamerica much like the EU but that isn't coming as fast as you may think. In the mean time, take what you can get and put it away for the inevitable rainy day. Don't carry debt if possible. I know that impracticle for many of us because many times old equipment = frequently repaired or down equipment but if you can put off a major purchase for a while, I would do so unless you were against the wall.
You know, a positive, can-do attitude will help. I am not the most upbeat person but I am working on it. And yes it really sucks to get stiffed on a big job but who would let a job get into them for so much money? I would want a heck of a lot of front on a big job. that's a 1/4 years work for a small company.

Gravel Rat
11-25-2007, 01:00 AM
The contractors try get paid for some of the job before they get too deep into it. The contractor still has to buy the materials thats what really hurts if they don't get paid right away. It comes down to threats and putting liens against the property.

YellowDogSVC
11-25-2007, 01:07 AM
Liens can work on some projects. I feel for your buddies. I get lied to occasionally and it hurts. don't have too much trouble collecting because I do smaller jobs or work for friends or referalls but have been stiffed years ago and I didn't handle it right. That hurts when things are already tight. I am an honest man and will give an honest opinion. It sucks to have people (developers are notorious for this) lie in an effort to get a better price or take your price back to their original bidder in an effort to get it lowered and then back to you and so on. In small towns, it isn't hard to find out what was said to who... When the economy gets slow and the weekenders hang it up, it is even more frustrating to have someone try and get something for nothing...but that's a whole different thread.--

Gravel Rat
11-25-2007, 08:00 PM
I was having lunch the other day at my favorite restaurant and I was sitting beside a building contractor he was talking about a house he is almost completed. The homeowner ordered some kind of specialized exhaust fan it wasn't complete its a 3 week delay. Can't get the final papers on the house so the contractor isn't able to get paid from the bank. He was owed something like 20,000 dollars.

Another building contractor I know is dealing with a homeowner that is a real pain in the butt. The homeowner has a stop watch and see's how long the guys take for lunch breaks. The guy sits in the bush with binoculars watching to see if the contractors employees are working. Its a nightmare job the homeowner is well known now by the subtrades nobody will work for the guy. I met the guy what a idiot.

YellowDogSVC
11-25-2007, 08:35 PM
I was having lunch the other day at my favorite restaurant and I was sitting beside a building contractor he was talking about a house he is almost completed. The homeowner ordered some kind of specialized exhaust fan it wasn't complete its a 3 week delay. Can't get the final papers on the house so the contractor isn't able to get paid from the bank. He was owed something like 20,000 dollars.

Another building contractor I know is dealing with a homeowner that is a real pain in the butt. The homeowner has a stop watch and see's how long the guys take for lunch breaks. The guy sits in the bush with binoculars watching to see if the contractors employees are working. Its a nightmare job the homeowner is well known now by the subtrades nobody will work for the guy. I met the guy what a idiot.

I would tell the homeowner to find something else to entertain himself. Most homes are built by the job so it shouldn't matter how long lunch takes unless the job is taking longer than it should. Personally, I would walk off the job until there was a meeting of the minds and I would place a lien for the labor I didn't get a draw on. That will straighten out most homeowners with a mortgage. They can't close on their final if the liens are open. At least that is the way it is in Tx. The contractor has a lot of power if the homeowner isn't fair.

Gravel Rat
11-25-2007, 09:02 PM
It all depends some houses are built on cost per square footage and some are built by the hour. The same homeowner with the binoculars has had stuff redone because he wasn't happy with minor things. Like the roof it had a few dents in the metal you couldn't see them with your naked eye but he wanted the roof replaced.

I have worked for the same type of homeowner usually I work for them once and give them a decent size bill. If I go look at a job and the homeowner is squeeling about the price and I haven't even started I say I'am too busy find somebody else. I don't have time for cheap people you want something done pay the rate. What ends up happening they hire somebody else and end up paying double what I was going to charge because they had to hire somebody out of the area.

qps
11-25-2007, 10:53 PM
I was having lunch the other day at my favorite restaurant and I was sitting beside a building contractor he was talking about a house he is almost completed. The homeowner ordered some kind of specialized exhaust fan it wasn't complete its a 3 week delay. Can't get the final papers on the house so the contractor isn't able to get paid from the bank. He was owed something like 20,000 dollars.

Another building contractor I know is dealing with a homeowner that is a real pain in the butt. The homeowner has a stop watch and see's how long the guys take for lunch breaks. The guy sits in the bush with binoculars watching to see if the contractors employees are working. Its a nightmare job the homeowner is well known now by the subtrades nobody will work for the guy. I met the guy what a idiot.


Did you have the McNuggets or Cheeseburger in your Happy Meal????:waving:

crab
11-25-2007, 11:02 PM
gravel rat it seems you're doing OK ,and thats great,i bet you can spring for a :canadaflag:Big mac.:canadaflag:

YellowDogSVC
11-25-2007, 11:53 PM
I just wouldn't work for a guy like that and I think a guy like that deserves to have no one finish his house. I had a clock watcher a few times. I hate when they come and say" well you have a few minutes left can you do this or that?" If I like the guy, no problem if wasn't watching minutes but if he's a jerk...well, I just tell them by the time I wrap up and load up, it's been 8 hours. I usually won't work by the hour because of that mentality. I work in half-day blocks for people that can't afford a whole day but need me. Otherwise I work full by the day or job. It cuts back on clock watching when you tell them that travel time is built into a day..you know...with fuel costs and such you have to do that or you haul for free unless you have a haul charge.

Gravel Rat
11-26-2007, 12:11 AM
I don't eat that dog chit from McDonalds. The place I go uses real hamburger meat. Its funny watching people from the city eat there because they never seen what real meat is supposed to look like. The regular burger uses 3/4s of a pound of meat the double burger is equal to 3 big macs. Anyhow it is my favorite place to eat I spend about 2300 a year there.

Back to the economy. For B.C. the work is regional its busy in Vancouver and in the Okanagan but on Vancouver island and parts of the Coast the work has dropped off.

RockSet N' Grade
11-26-2007, 12:20 AM
Just think, if you would have packed a lunch all this time........you could have owned a skid or excavator and been in the dirt business............now, that is talking economy on a micro level vs. macro, but I am sure regurgitating yesterdays newspaper print is certainly more exciting...

qps
11-26-2007, 12:51 AM
Just think, if you would have packed a lunch all this time........you could have owned a skid or excavator and been in the dirt business............now, that is talking economy on a micro level vs. macro, but I am sure regurgitating yesterdays newspaper print is certainly more exciting...


you track how much you eat at a restaurant....I need you to do my books....:cool2: again....beat to the punch...you guys are to quick for me.....:weightlifter:

ksss
11-26-2007, 08:48 PM
I am not participating in this economic down turn (if there is one). I suggest we all do the same.

Gravel Rat
11-26-2007, 09:36 PM
One thing about it I don't drink so I'am not buying 24 cans (flat) of beer its close to 38 dollars. And I don't smoke so that saves me money buying packs at 9 bucks.

I get tired of eating sandwiches and packing a lunch the 11 bucks I spend at the restaurant is cheap. You look at some one that smokes 2 packs of cigs a day spends 6900 a year then drinks a flat of beer every two days another 6900 a year. Spending 13,800 dollars on two things that will eventually kill you.

The cost of buying things is far cheaper in the USA it is why Canadians are heading south in droves with the dollar on par. Take for example tires for a P/U truck tire in the US is 40 to 50 dollars cheaper it is the same brand model and size. There are many things that are that way. The only thing expensive down is the USA is hospital bills but other than that your cost of living is considerably less.

Cost of fuel I'am paying 4.14 per gallon fo fuel where as down just in Washington state its 3.49.

qps
11-26-2007, 10:32 PM
I am not participating in this economic down turn (if there is one). I suggest we all do the same.

I'm with you...count me out:weightlifter:

Gravel Rat
11-26-2007, 11:14 PM
More cost savings I just bought some filters for my truck from a online store in the USA I saved 45 bucks. The oil filters from the USA is 18.95 the same motorcraft filter from the local Ford dealer before my discount is 32.95. The fuel filter from Ford is 103.52 and from the USA 47.09.

If shipping wasn't a big problem I would buy tires online for two Bridgestone steer tires I paid 312 dollars each in the USA the same tires are 225 each for two tires it is a 174 dollar savings.

GradeMan
11-27-2007, 12:03 AM
I hear you on the cross boarder savings, Funny how much you could save in a year if you want to be frugal eh?

Gravel Rat
11-27-2007, 12:33 AM
There is stuff in the USA that is far cheaper than what we pay here in Canada. The exact same brand etc and its far cheaper south of the boarder.

With lumber you can buy Canadian wood cheaper in the US it is export grade wood which is 100% better than that twisted up crap we have to buy in the USA cheaper than we can here. Can go to a Washington state lumber yard buy 2x4s etc and bring them back to Canada its still cheaper.

If you ever seen export grade wood its perfect it has very few knots,waynes and its straight.

Mason dump boxes you can get them in the USA for 5-6 grand up here is 8 grand.

GradeMan
11-27-2007, 12:50 AM
Funny how we give them our good wood and we are left with the crap? I didn,t think that the problem was canada wide tho, I hope the americans can start buildin some more houses soon,, To get things back to normal, we have lost to many mill now,

Gravel Rat
11-27-2007, 01:18 AM
Allot of Western Red Cedar is sent southbound especially cedar shakes and shingles exported to California. Probably 50-60% of the cedar shakes and roofing produced in B.C. heads to the USA.

One thing the Americans really love is B.C. Oysters there is tons of it sent south. Another is fish farm salmon there is tons of it sold to the USA. The US residents love the mushy farm raised fish :laugh:

cantoo
11-27-2007, 06:44 PM
Gravel Rat, that's nothing you should see the lumber we send to Japan. I was over there twice building houses. There was huge logs from BC sitting there ready to cut inot 2x4's. The 2x10's we used that were JAS (Japan grade) were knotfree. Best wood I have ever seen other than some African wood in Japan. The lumber store had 36" wide boards 24' long that were knotfree. Some kind of wood from the rain forest. They used them for hammer handles??? crazy.
The best goes to Japan, 2nd best goes to US and the rest stays here.

Gravel Rat
11-27-2007, 09:06 PM
The wood to Japan is very expensive and the reason why its not cut here in Canada is the mills can't cut it exact enough for them plus its metric sizes.

What ever logs they don't use right away they sink in deep water which preserves the wood it doesn't chek and won't rot under water because the lack of oxygen.