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irrig8r
12-04-2007, 10:16 PM
What's the deal with the new stake that came with the FG-12 fixture I picked up today as a sample?

There's a clear window in the middle of the stake attached with a single SS screw. It doesn't come with any additional instructions about what to do with this compartment.

It says CapannaDiNoce on it. I'm assuming it's for splicing, but do you use it?

Or do you use whatever splice method you've been using and discard the clear window?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-04-2007, 10:54 PM
That is where you store your granola Gregg. Sheesh, don't you know anything?

:laugh:

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-04-2007, 11:00 PM
While we are on an FX thread....

Can someone update me as to their ratings (ULc, CSA, UL, ETL, etc)? Last time I checked with them about Canadian distributorships they indicated that they had no CSA approved products and that they were not too interested in the Canadian Marketplace.

Thanks.

Chris J
12-04-2007, 11:13 PM
Do they not sell Canadian Valium? Some of you guys need some pills. Let me know if you need a good contact. I'm real close to Miami, and I've seen miami vice 100 times!:rolleyes:
Give me a break already!!!!!:nono:

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-04-2007, 11:18 PM
Do they not sell Canadian Valium? Some of you guys need some pills. Let me know if you need a good contact. I'm real close to Miami, and I've seen miami vice 100 times!:rolleyes:
Give me a break already!!!!!:nono:

Ok Chris, you lost me completely here.... what exactly are you needing a break from?

irrig8r
12-05-2007, 09:35 AM
They say ETL on the fixtures James.

JoeyD
12-05-2007, 09:59 AM
ETL Just like Unique Lighting Systems!!

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-05-2007, 10:59 PM
We are running into a new situation here in Ontario... Our ESA (Electrical Safety Authority) is "cracking down" on installations, licensing and approvals. It would appear that as early as Jan 08, the ESA will be requiring all LV Landscape Lighting fixtures, trans, connectors, wire, etc to be CSA approved. This could be a significant obstacle for manufactures who rely on ETL and UL approvals. I will keep you all up to date as the situation develops.

pete scalia
12-05-2007, 11:01 PM
We are running into a new situation here in Ontario... Our ESA (Electrical Safety Authority) is "cracking down" on installations, licensing and approvals. It would appear that as early as Jan 08, the ESA will be requiring all LV Landscape Lighting fixtures, trans, connectors, wire, etc to be CSA approved. This could be a significant obstacle for manufactures who rely on ETL and UL approvals. I will keep you all up to date as the situation develops.

Please do as this will have a great effect on us all here in the states.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-05-2007, 11:08 PM
Well, considering that one of the Sponsors has just started to distribute their products here in Ontario, and their products are ETL approved, it may very well have an effect on their operations.

Pro-Scapes
12-06-2007, 09:09 AM
Perhaps its like the Regulator stakes minus the regulators. Some RSL fixtures come with internal regulators in the stakes. used em 1 time on a special job for my dist. They worked... all lights had 11.5v with 15v on the mains... no idea how they are holding up I have not been back to see the job in 2 years.

What's the deal with the new stake that came with the FG-12 fixture I picked up today as a sample?

There's a clear window in the middle of the stake attached with a single SS screw. It doesn't come with any additional instructions about what to do with this compartment.

It says CapannaDiNoce on it. I'm assuming it's for splicing, but do you use it?

Or do you use whatever splice method you've been using and discard the clear window?

JoeyD
12-06-2007, 09:23 AM
ETL...EDISON TESTING LABRATORIES........Thats right, it was started by Thoms Edison. Pack that in your pipe and smoke it all those guys who say ETL is not credible.

James, whoever is making this decision is going to make thigns really hard for you guys to obtain products. See we have all of our products labeled with a small little US and a C on our ETL labeling. That signifies it is tested to both US and Canadian standards. So toa degree we will still be sold in Canada unless they tell ETL, UL, and ARL that the C is now meaningless. If I am you I woukld make a stink. I dont know how many manufacturers are going to be willing to put all of their products through a CSA testing (which would cost thousands and thousands of dollars to do) for a smaller Canadian market. In reality you the end user may be the one who suffers most here in terms of your now limited selection.

irrig8r
12-06-2007, 11:11 AM
I brought this up a couple days ago over on the new forum.
( www.landscapeconstructionsite.com )

Testing laboratories and standards, and why manufacturers use one vs. another. UL, ETL, ARL, CSA.

And why does a standard like UL 1838 carry so much weight with some... do the other testing organizations write their own standards for outdoor lighting? (And haven't I read a claim somewhere in this forum that 1838 doesn't even apply to fixtures mounted to structures?)

irrig8r
12-06-2007, 11:13 AM
BTW Joey... 10 V lighting systems? Just to accommodate New Jersey? Or were you joking? (I'm assuming you're talking about LEDs if you aren't joking)

JoeyD
12-06-2007, 11:47 AM
Gregg,

10v system, I am not joking. I dont have enough info to go into detail today.

We chose ETL because they are closer, more reliable, quicker turn around time, and offered much better pricing then UL did. UL was all backed up, they cant get the products tested for weeks and they were way over priced. ETL was just a much better option for us. Esentially they do the same thing. The UL that does the testing is not the same as the UL that writes the listings just remember that. UL that does testing is the same as ETL and ARL that do testing. This is where people get all confused. They think if they dont have a UL sticker it is not safe, that is not true. Lots of major companies use ETL for their compliance testing. You can find this info on their websites.

I attached a few pieces that may better help you undertsand ETL a bit better.

As for UL 1838, it usually comes down to does the manufacturer make thier own units or not? Nightscaping I think makes their own units still but they are set in stone with UL 1838, they built their entire system around that restriction so they have to abide by it. Other companies followed suit. Although they do not make UL 1838 wire, connections, and light bulbs which would mean the system technically is in violation they feel that by limiting their systems to 300w and 15v they limit the chance of a meltdown. Maybe this is true in some respects but overall I can cause a meltdown with 12v if the connection is done incorrectly. UL 1838 is equivelent to Ford putting a govenor on your truck at 75 MPH. Fact is you can crash and be injured at 65mph just like you can at 120mph. My system wired correctly is as safe if not safer then a UL 1838 system. I say that becuase we preach inline fusing on your secondaries and we provide a slow blow glass fuse on the primary which will blow if the transformers primary amperage climbs past it's rating. Most 25amp circuit breakers wont trip until they get to 32 amps so go figure. (run your own test)

In all 1838 is slowly dieing. Contractors are beginning to realize that 1838 was written with an entire system in mind like Malibu kits. Fact is we carry more ETL approved UL listings then any of our direct competitors. Go figure, especially since we have been the company who has been labeled "DANGEROUS".

Nate always leaves it out there for you to call him if you have objections, concerns, or want more clarification. I haev no where the knowledge on this subject as he does. So if you want more detail on UL1838 and other UL listings please call him direct on his cell at 760-580-4980.

Joey D.

Lite4
12-06-2007, 01:51 PM
Thats great info, Thanks Joey.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-06-2007, 04:55 PM
ETL...EDISON TESTING LABRATORIES........Thats right, it was started by Thoms Edison. Pack that in your pipe and smoke it all those guys who say ETL is not credible.

James, whoever is making this decision is going to make thigns really hard for you guys to obtain products. See we have all of our products labeled with a small little US and a C on our ETL labeling. That signifies it is tested to both US and Canadian standards. So toa degree we will still be sold in Canada unless they tell ETL, UL, and ARL that the C is now meaningless. If I am you I woukld make a stink. I dont know how many manufacturers are going to be willing to put all of their products through a CSA testing (which would cost thousands and thousands of dollars to do) for a smaller Canadian market. In reality you the end user may be the one who suffers most here in terms of your now limited selection.

Joey, I am with you there man... I don't want to see this either and we are trying our best here to convince them that as long as the 'other' rating agencies test to the CSA standard, then they should be acceptable.

For instance ULc. As I Understand it, the little c behind the UL means that it is a product tested by UL to meet Canadian (CSA) standards. If this is correct then there should be no issue at all with using ULc products.

The problem will be with ETL and ARL and any others... if they are not testing to the CSA standard, then they will not be accpeted here for installation. I am pretty sure that ETL does not test to CSA standards but rather to UL standards.... Its all pretty confusing. Perhaps we can get them to change and test to CSA standards and then provide a ETLc certification.

Bottom line is, we may have to give in to our ESA's demands if we want to stay in business... This whole thing started with their push to limit LV outdoor lighting system to Class II installations (60W, 5Amps per cable max), and their requirement for all LV lighting systems to be inspected and thus installed only by licensed electrical contractors. We are making progress and hope to have all the issues resolved early in the new year.

Next will be a LO/ESA/Min. of Training sanctioned certification for LV installers. This will probably take a couple of years to develop, certify and commence.

JoeyD
12-06-2007, 05:20 PM
James you need to look at the attachments. ETL does the same thing as UL as far as that little c (cETL).

Fact is that the US writes all the codes and the rest of the world just adopts them and maybe tweaks them. I find it hard to believe that Canada is going to re do all the work the NEC has already done. It is probably just a way to get more manufacturers to spend more money having some other testing labratory say yep ETL is right, this product is safe. Now they slap their CSA on it for a hefty fee. I can tell you I hope the Canadians dont tell us that we have to have everything CSA approved. We would probably tell them to go pound snow!

So again I will say as I have previously that our products are tested to canadian standards and our logo reflects this by carrying that little "c" next to it. Again UL is no different then ETL in terms of what they do.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-06-2007, 11:49 PM
James you need to look at the attachments. ETL does the same thing as UL as far as that little c (cETL).

Fact is that the US writes all the codes and the rest of the world just adopts them and maybe tweaks them. I find it hard to believe that Canada is going to re do all the work the NEC has already done. It is probably just a way to get more manufacturers to spend more money having some other testing labratory say yep ETL is right, this product is safe. Now they slap their CSA on it for a hefty fee. I can tell you I hope the Canadians dont tell us that we have to have everything CSA approved. We would probably tell them to go pound snow!

So again I will say as I have previously that our products are tested to canadian standards and our logo reflects this by carrying that little "c" next to it. Again UL is no different then ETL in terms of what they do.

Joey, look into this and I think you see that you are belittling the history and the role that CSA plays around the world. It is a preeminent rating association that is acknowledged everywhere, is highly professional and coveted. Many of the most stringent codes and ratings are developed by the CSA and then adopted by UL ETC ARL etc. That little "c" you find, means it was tested to the Canadian standard.

There actually are some things, and people, in countries other then the USA who lead the world.

JoeyD
12-07-2007, 10:26 AM
Joey, look into this and I think you see that you are belittling the history and the role that CSA plays around the world. It is a preeminent rating association that is acknowledged everywhere, is highly professional and coveted. Many of the most stringent codes and ratings are developed by the CSA and then adopted by UL ETC ARL etc. That little "c" you find, means it was tested to the Canadian standard.

There actually are some things, and people, in countries other then the USA who lead the world.


"I'm a flag waiving, Patriotic, nephew of my Uncle Sam..." Johnny Cash :usflag:

The USA creates all things great!! Except 4 cylinder engines! OK this could start a whole new war........LOL

Not belittling the CSA, I do not know their history but my point is that I doubt they would require all companies to test to a whole new standard and abide by a whole new set of rules. The NEC is the formidable leader in fire and electrical saftey and protection. If we abide by those rules no matter where these products go in you should be ok. But I think you and I agree that the CSA requiring their logo on every electrical/LV product would be a nightmare for both you and I.

sprinkler guy
12-07-2007, 01:56 PM
What's the deal with the new stake that came with the FG-12 fixture I picked up today as a sample?

There's a clear window in the middle of the stake attached with a single SS screw. It doesn't come with any additional instructions about what to do with this compartment.

It says CapannaDiNoce on it. I'm assuming it's for splicing, but do you use it?

Or do you use whatever splice method you've been using and discard the clear window?

Gregg,

This almost doesn't seem pertinent to this thread anymore, but I'll answer your question. The new stake, which is only standard on some of the bigger,taller fixtures, has that compartment available for a splice kit. I find it isn't that convenient and just bypass it. My FX rep tells me the guys that like it, LOVE it. To each his own.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-07-2007, 04:21 PM
I did some checking today... The CSA standard is the rule of law here in Canada. That is why we are technically not permitted to install any fixture, component, etc that has not been tested to CSA standards.

When you see ULc or ETLc (or ARLc, if there is such a thing) then what you are seeing is a product that was physically tested by UL or ETL to the CSA standard. ie. it meets CSA requirements. Items that are rated UL or ETL or ARL (with no "c") are not permitted to be installed by contractors. For some reason there is no prohibition on them being sold, but they cannot be installed by pros legally. This is what our Electrical Safety Authority is going to be cracking down on come 2008. The will be looking for product that is not properly listed or approved.

As far as I know both FX and Unique are not tested to CSA standards and therefore are/will not be accepted for installations here in Ontario.

This is not my interpretation as I investigated this today with: 1: Lighting Distributor, 2: Electrical Wholesaler, 3: Electrical contractor. They all provided the same information.

Have a Safe, legal, approved, and certified day.

JoeyD
12-07-2007, 04:55 PM
Here is my TF label James. Need I say more about my listing??

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/TFLabel003.jpg

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-07-2007, 05:00 PM
That works for me Joey. :) Are your fixtures the same?

JoeyD
12-07-2007, 05:43 PM
That works for me Joey. :) Are your fixtures the same?

Most are. I am getting a lst of which fixtrues are not. Those that are not are in process with ETL right now. Here is a label to reflect the logo. No excuses now James!! Got to give me a shot. Contact Tony at Central Irrigation up there!

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/FixtureLabel.jpg

johnh
12-11-2007, 03:02 PM
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/FixtureLabel.jpg

I don't propose to be an expert, but i do have some experience with this issue, and have been involved with the negotiations with the ESA in Ontario, and here is the rub. A CSA, ULc, cETL, whatever listing is only good if it is "approved for the purpose for which it is intended". In Canada, that means if it is to be used for landscape lighting, it must conform to CSA TIL B-58B. Neither UL1598 nor UL506 (506 actually states "not for use with garden lighting!) comply. The authority was very clear on this point..."approved for the purpose for which it is intended."
JH

JoeyD
12-11-2007, 03:18 PM
Thanks for the info John. I will need to research the legality of our listing in Canada. I an tell oyu though John this was just to show James that we do have our products tested to CSA standards. But I have said it before na di will say it again we have more listings than anyone. SO if a UL 1838 unit is the only legal unit you can install in CA we have it. We do make an 1838, and 1563, a 506, a 1598..........etc. I would say just like I told James the CSA is going to pigeon hole you guys and really limit you in your product availability and choices.

My brain is running on fumes right now. I will dive into this subject further later in the week. This si a good subject for us to discuss, atleast for you canucks!! LOL

johnh
12-11-2007, 03:56 PM
Thanks for the info John. I will need to research the legality of our listing in Canada. I an tell oyu though John this was just to show James that we do have our products tested to CSA standards. But I have said it before na di will say it again we have more listings than anyone. SO if a UL 1838 unit is the only legal unit you can install in CA we have it. We do make an 1838, and 1563, a 506, a 1598..........etc. I would say just like I told James the CSA is going to pigeon hole you guys and really limit you in your product availability and choices.


Thanks Joey, It is certainly becoming more restrictive, however only in enforcement, the CEC hasn't changed much, just how it is interpreted and enforced.
Further research into this area, CSA STD. 22.2 NO.66-1988 is no longer valid, it has been superseded by CSA STD. 22.2 66.1, 66.2, and 66.3. These are binational standards which relate to UL5085. UL5085 specifically states that it does not cover low voltage landscape lighting. UL1838 comforms to CAN/CSA TILB-58B which is the standard specifically for landscape lighting.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-11-2007, 04:13 PM
Thanks John. For those of you who don't know him.... John Higo is the main guy at TC Lighting here in Ontario. He is a awesome asset and resource for contractors and the industry.

Welcome to the thread John.

Chris J
12-11-2007, 08:00 PM
Ooops. Wish I would have read the bio before I slammed him with the "cut and paste comment." Sorry pal. Didn't know you were a celebrity.....:o

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-12-2007, 01:11 AM
Thanks Joey, It is certainly becoming more restrictive, however only in enforcement, the CEC hasn't changed much, just how it is interpreted and enforced.
Further research into this area, CSA STD. 22.2 NO.66-1988 is no longer valid, it has been superseded by CSA STD. 22.2 66.1, 66.2, and 66.3. These are binational standards which relate to UL5085. UL5085 specifically states that it does not cover low voltage landscape lighting. UL1838 comforms to CAN/CSA TILB-58B which is the standard specifically for landscape lighting.

John H. is my go-to guy for standards and such. He knows of that which he speaks.

So to clarify this a bit, Joey, the stickers you showed on your transformer and your fixtures above, they clearly indicate that your products are tested to a CSA standard but the standards quoted are no longer up to date and even if they were, they are "Binational" and relate to UL5085 which specifically does not cover low voltage landscape lighting.

This is exactly what our officials will be looking for in the new year. I hate to say it, but I cannot afford to have a site shut down on a technicality like this. It is unfortunate that there has to be so many layers and red tape and binational this and that. It certainly confuses and limits the marketplace.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-12-2007, 01:20 AM
I don't propose to be an expert, but i do have some experience with this issue, and have been involved with the negotiations with the ESA in Ontario, and here is the rub. A CSA, ULc, cETL, whatever listing is only good if it is "approved for the purpose for which it is intended". In Canada, that means if it is to be used for landscape lighting, it must conform to CSA TIL B-58B. Neither UL1598 nor UL506 (506 actually states "not for use with garden lighting!) comply. The authority was very clear on this point..."approved for the purpose for which it is intended."
JH

Ok, now I am totally confused! Why would a Outdoor Low Voltage Lighting manufacture have their products tested and approved to a standard that clearly states that it is "not for use with garden lighting"? This isnt some crazy Canadian interpretation... the UL506 standard states it.

Perhaps the big difference in price and speed between CSA/UL and ETL is that you get what you pay for? I mean really, what type of consultations are they offering their clients if they are testing products to a standard that is not intended to cover the use of the product? Its just window dressing, looks good until you pull back the layers and look inside.

irrig8r
12-12-2007, 01:25 AM
If James and Joey decide to arm wrestle over this at the AOLP conference will someone please videotape it?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-12-2007, 01:36 AM
If James and Joey decide to arm wrestle over this at the AOLP conference will someone please videotape it?

Hey that sounds like fun! I'm in! :laugh: I will start training tomorrow (ya sure I will)

Just my luck I will arrive only to find out that Joey is 6'6" tall, 250Lbs and a former line backer or pro wrestler...

JoeyD
12-12-2007, 09:36 AM
John H. is my go-to guy for standards and such. He knows of that which he speaks.

So to clarify this a bit, Joey, the stickers you showed on your transformer and your fixtures above, they clearly indicate that your products are tested to a CSA standard but the standards quoted are no longer up to date and even if they were, they are "Binational" and relate to UL5085 which specifically does not cover low voltage landscape lighting.

This is exactly what our officials will be looking for in the new year. I hate to say it, but I cannot afford to have a site shut down on a technicality like this. It is unfortunate that there has to be so many layers and red tape and binational this and that. It certainly confuses and limits the marketplace.


OK well this UL5058 thing I have to look into. NOT ONE PERSON int he last day that I have spoken to hasn;t a clue to UL5058 applying to anything we are discussing. I will be speaking with ETL today on this to get a sure shot answer.

Hold tight!

JoeyD
12-12-2007, 09:43 AM
Hey that sounds like fun! I'm in! :laugh: I will start training tomorrow (ya sure I will)

Just my luck I will arrive only to find out that Joey is 6'6" tall, 250Lbs and a former line backer or pro wrestler...

LOL.......Arm wresteling.....Shall I use my left hand????

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-12-2007, 11:08 AM
LOL.......Arm wresteling.....Shall I use my left hand????

If you are left handed then the deal is off buddy!

I think this should be done on Thursday night... no point leaving it to the end of the conference, festering in everybody's mind as to who the victor will be, right Joey?

To the Victor go the spoils!
(or as Kate and I came up with when we were staying at the Victor Hotel in South Beach last July... "To the Victor go the Spoiled"! LOL)

JoeyD
12-12-2007, 11:31 AM
Ok, now I am totally confused! Why would a Outdoor Low Voltage Lighting manufacture have their products tested and approved to a standard that clearly states that it is "not for use with garden lighting"? This isnt some crazy Canadian interpretation... the UL506 standard states it.

Perhaps the big difference in price and speed between CSA/UL and ETL is that you get what you pay for? I mean really, what type of consultations are they offering their clients if they are testing products to a standard that is not intended to cover the use of the product? Its just window dressing, looks good until you pull back the layers and look inside.

I undertsand again where your loyalties are and I am completley fine with YOU not using my product if you are concerned. Let me ask you James have you ever had a product listed??? If you feel we are going to kill you and burn down and ruin your jobs then dont use the products, but dont question ETL and the way they and we go about listing our products. If you are so concerend with ETL being legit and intelligent in their decision making then I think you should notify the following companies right away..........

3M Company
Frigidaire Canada
General Electric
Krispy-Kreme Doughnut Corp.
LG Electronics
Maytag
Sanyo Electric Co., Ltd
Whirlpool
Cummins Power Generation
GE Nuclear Energy
Hitachi
Sony
Yamaha
Sanyo
Sharp
JVC
Kenwood
Pioneer

And the list goes on and on and on. We are just one little company who goes with these guys in choosing ETL!

Again, I am not going to pretend I am an authority here. I am sure you and John are high fiving each other right now thinking haha, we got Unique now by posting articles and what not. But what you need to understand James is this isn't our first rodeo. We have been down this road, heard these arguments, have had the Ul 1838 thing thrown at us from so many different directions and one thing remains the same. Unique Lighting Systems is growing, our products are being installed in all 50 states and atleast 5 different countries and we have never been kicked off of a job. So unless you know something that Nightscaping and FX and who ever else has tried to shut us down on then I would suggest that you not call Unique, ETL or better yet Nate out on how we list and the legality of our listings.

In a very short while I will be posting a phone number. I will be calling a conference call for all willing to take part. We can do this today, tommorow, or Friday, or next year I dont care. Nate will be on the call, I suggest you get any authority you like to join the call and we will have an educated fair discussion on UL 1838 and whatever other listing you would like to dicsuss. You can feel free to hear the arguments that other authority's have heard from us that has permitted them from taking any action to have our listings removed. I encourage all who read and take part in this forum to join the call. You may just want to listen. Some of you see our side of this argument and undertsand that there is no danger in using 22v properly. Sure if some nit wit grabs live 22v and jumps into a pond there could be some consequences but we are talking LOW VOLTAGE HERE GUYS!

I will post the number and set a time and we will shall all be able to dicuss this verbally becuase typing this all out is just lame! We need to be able to articulate and to express our arguments in a way that everyone can understand without it getting lost in translation. I dont want to have any of "what I meant was" stuff.

This will be good for everyone involved here so we can get all the facts strait. What do you think?

Joey D.

JoeyD
12-12-2007, 11:34 AM
If you are left handed then the deal is off buddy!

I think this should be done on Thursday night... no point leaving it to the end of the conference, festering in everybody's mind as to who the victor will be, right Joey?

To the Victor go the spoils!
(or as Kate and I came up with when we were staying at the Victor Hotel in South Beach last July... "To the Victor go the Spoiled"! LOL)

There are non stop flights to San Diego every day right???? why wait till AOLP.........I'll send the Unique Limo Bus to pick you up!!

I know we share the same passion here James, I just dont take lightly to people calling us unssafe or illegal.

I knwo this is all in good fun but I do not want this to get out of hand.

JoeyD
12-12-2007, 11:54 AM
The ETL Listed Mark is an alternative to the CSA and UL marks.

ETL Testing Laboratories has been conducting electrical performance and reliability tests since 1896. Intertek Testing Services (ITS) acquired ETL from Inchcape in 1996. ITS is recognized by OSHA as a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL), just as Underwriters Laboratories (UL), Canadian Standards Association (CSA) and several other independent organizations are recognized.

ITS tests products according to nearly 200 safety and performance standards. The ETL Listed Mark and C-ETL Listed Mark are accepted throughout the United States and Canada when denoting compliance with nationally recognized standards such as ANSI, IEC, UL, and CSA.

This certification mark indicates that the product has been tested to and has met the minimum requirements of a widely recognized (consensus) U.S. product safety standard, that the manufacturing site has been audited, and that the applicant has agreed to a program of periodic factory follow-up inspections to verify continued conformance.

If the mark includes a small US and/or C, it follows product safety standards of United States and/or Canada, respectively.





The Canadian Standards Association (CSA) is a nonprofit association serving business, industry, government and consumers in Canada and the global marketplace. Among many other activities, CSA develops standards that enhance public safety.

A Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory, CSA is very familiar with U.S. requirements. According to OSHA regulations, the CSA-US Mark qualifies as an alternative to the UL Mark.

Here are some areas where CSA standards are applied:

Canadian Electrical Code, Part III-Outside Wiring
Electrical Engineering Standards
Electromagnetic Compatibility
Example: C108.8: Limits and Methods of Measurement of Electromagnetic Emissions




ETL has been around since 1896. Some guy named Edison?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-12-2007, 01:05 PM
Thanks Joey, It is certainly becoming more restrictive, however only in enforcement, the CEC hasn't changed much, just how it is interpreted and enforced.
Further research into this area, CSA STD. 22.2 NO.66-1988 is no longer valid, it has been superseded by CSA STD. 22.2 66.1, 66.2, and 66.3. These are binational standards which relate to UL5085. UL5085 specifically states that it does not cover low voltage landscape lighting. UL1838 comforms to CAN/CSA TILB-58B which is the standard specifically for landscape lighting.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=James Solecki - INTEGRA;2062016]
So to clarify this a bit, Joey, the stickers you showed on your transformer and your fixtures above, they clearly indicate that your products are tested to a CSA standard but the standards quoted are no longer up to date and even if they were, they are "Binational" and relate to UL5085 which specifically does not cover low voltage landscape lighting.
This is exactly what our officials will be looking for in the new year. I hate to say it, but I cannot afford to have a site shut down on a technicality like this. It is unfortunate that there has to be so many layers and red tape and binational this and that. It certainly confuses and limits the marketplace.

There are non stop flights to San Diego every day right???? why wait till AOLP.........I'll send the Unique Limo Bus to pick you up!! You pay from my flight and put me up in a hotel for my stay and I will be there Joey... I will cover my per diem.
I know we share the same passion here James, I just dont take lightly to people calling us unssafe or illegal.

I knwo this is all in good fun but I do not want this to get out of hand.


Joey, I am not calling your products unsafe. I am not calling your products illegal. I am not suggesting for a moment that your products or the company that you work for is engaged in any form of mis-information or underhanded operations.

I simply want to get to the bottom of the approvals, listing, and code issues. I do know that our ESA will be inspecting our installations soon for product compliance. I do know that your products are tested by an established, venerable and authoratative agency; the ETL. And now, thanks to some digging around into the listings, I am aware that the Listing that your products carry is not going to cut the mustard here in Ontario. Simply put, yes your products are tested to a CSA standard but they are not tested to the correct standard for their intended application. (we all know there are many many different standards for differing applications, and that these are "proabably" all safe, but it is the letter of the law that is going to apply here. Electrical inspectors seem to like technicalities and seldom have a great sense of humour on a job site.)

This does not only apply to Unique product, it also applies to other manufacturers like FX and even others. Our challenge here in Ontario will be to sort through all this mess and come up with exactly what components will be permitted to be installed in specific applications.

JoeyD
12-12-2007, 01:56 PM
Well then James I guess you wont be using any Unique..I guess we will have to go on without you.

Oh and by the way dont expect any plane tickets from me anytime soon. But I would still like to shoot some Crown Royal with you in person and hear all your wondrfull tales of lighting in Canada.

Have A Great Day!
Joey D.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-12-2007, 02:05 PM
Here is my TF label James. Need I say more about my listing??

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/TFLabel003.jpg

Ok, so that is a label from one of your transformers right Joey?

Here is what UL 506 states (edited for applicable content):
Specialty Transformers
UL 506
1 Scope
1.1 These requirements cover air-cooled transformers and reactors for general use, and ignition transformers for use with gas burners and oil burners. ...
1.2 These requirements do not cover , cord and plug connected transformers (other than gas-tube-sign transformers), garden light transformers, voltage regulators, swimming pool and spa transformers, or other special types of transformers covered in requirements for other electrical devices or appliances.

Here is what UL 1598 states (edited for applicable content):
UL 1598
1 Scope
1.1 This Standard applies to luminaires for use in non-hazardous locations and ...
1.2 This Standard does not apply to luminaires covered by other standards. The luminaries not covered by this Standard include
Low-Level Path Marking and Lighting Systems in the United States;
Low-Voltage Landscape Lighting as follows:
For products intended for installation in Canada, landscape lighting systems that are 30 V nominal or less; and
For products intended for installation in Mexico, low-voltage landscape lighting devices that are 24 V nominal or less.
For products intended for installation in the United States, low-voltage landscape lighting devices that are of 15 V nominal or less; Low

And finally here is what UL 5085 states (this is the UL standard that relates to the CSA Std. that is quoted on your label)
Low Voltage Transformers - Part 1: General Requirements 5085-1
1 Scope
1.1 These requirements cover the following types of transformers:
a) Air-cooled transformers and reactors for general use;....
e) Cord-connected transformers (which are evaluated in accordance with Part 2);
1.3 The standard does not cover the following transformers:
e) Low voltage landscape;
f) Swimming pool and spa:

This is pretty clear stuff. The standards to which you had ETL test your transformer in the photo above does not apply for its use or application as a Low Voltage Landscape Lighting Transformer!

Bottom line it is certified, but it is not certified for its application.

This is the crux of the problem... It is NOT enough to simply have your products tested and certified, they must be tested and certified for the application in which they are used/installed.

johnh
12-12-2007, 02:14 PM
I am sure you and John are high fiving each other right now thinking haha, we got Unique now by posting articles and what not.
To clarify my position, I am not out to "get anyone", I am simply sharing information as I thought was the purpose of this forum. As with all knowledge, one may choose to do whatever they wish with it.
We in Ontario are in a delicate situation with our local electrical authority, and as such must be specific and meticulous when it comes to codes, and standards.
JH

JoeyD
12-12-2007, 02:46 PM
To clarify my position, I am not out to "get anyone", I am simply sharing information as I thought was the purpose of this forum. As with all knowledge, one may choose to do whatever they wish with it.
We in Ontario are in a delicate situation with our local electrical authority, and as such must be specific and meticulous when it comes to codes, and standards.
JH


Very good John. Will you join us tommorow on a conference call to discuss this. The more I hear the more we need to look at what we need to do to conform to new canadian standards.

I will try and offer up some explanation to James previous post as well. He is reffering to the scope of UL 1598 which mainly discusses LUMINAIRES and not POWER SUPPLY's. There is a difference.

I will return later.

Joey D.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-12-2007, 03:09 PM
I will try and offer up some explanation to James previous post as well. He is reffering to the scope of UL 1598 which mainly discusses LUMINAIRES and not POWER SUPPLY's. There is a difference.

I will return later.

Joey D.

No Joey... I clearly quoted UL 506, UL 1598, and UL5085 (as it applies and harmonizes with CSA 22.2 66-1988). These marks are all indicated on the transformer sticker that you photographed.

Each of these standards that ETL has tested your equipment to, as Identified on your products by the sticker, carries with it an exclusion limiting the application from a Low Voltage Landscape Lighting application.

Why your transformer carries a certification to UL1598 is beyond me because you are correct, that standard deals predominantly with Luminaires... Perhaps your factory boys are applying the wrong stickers to your products or ETL made a mistake in testing to the wrong standard.



I too will return later... but will be onsite all day tomorrow, so will not be able to listen in on the conference call... I hope that John H. will be able to.

johnh
12-12-2007, 03:32 PM
Very good John. Will you join us tommorow on a conference call to discuss this. The more I hear the more we need to look at what we need to do to conform to new canadian standards.
Joey D.

Unfortunately I cannot commit the time tomorrow, but could be available one day next week.

This is an rgument nor you or I will ever win becuase our loyalties and views lie in opposite areas.

If this is the case, what is the purpose of the conference call? I am not trying to convince you or your company of anything, nor start or win any arguments, just presenting facts as I know them to be. If it's for a free exchange of information, why change the forum, certainly all could benefit from the information, or at least examine it and make their own judgements.
If you could carify the purpose, I would be glad to make the time to discuss any issue to the betterment of our industry.
JH

extlights
12-12-2007, 03:45 PM
I know I don't contribute much here, but I do log in a few times a day to read the posts. Why is it that there are at least 3-4 threads that have ended up being arguments about listings and Unique transformers? Everyone here are supposed to be professionals. If you don't like someones product, don't use it....it's that simple. If you're stuck on working within certain regulations...fine, use the products that you feel work the best for you.

There are manufacturers that a lot of guys use that I will not use for certain reasons, but I'm not going to bash that product or person just because I won't use that specific product line...I work with the lines that will suit me and my customers the best. Enough with these threads being hi-jacked over an issue that really isn't an issue.

JoeyD
12-12-2007, 04:05 PM
Dave is rigth. I think this is a topic that has been way over analized for a long time. It is not uncommon to hear this from longtime users of NS and FX, so it is one we have had lots of experience in dealing with. I shall post all the applicable information regarding our listings and whatthey mean the minute I get them from my product engineer. I can tell you guys that UL 506 and UL 1598 are being revised and changed. UL1598 will have an entire Power Supply section added becuase if you go by what the current Scope of UL 1598 shows (what James posted) it is very vague and does not adress power supply's.

At any rate if any of you have concerns you all have my number as well as Nate's.

Joey D.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-12-2007, 04:34 PM
Joey. Check your office voice mail, from about 40 mins ago...

Dave, we are professionals.

We are debating very important topics here. Trust me, when your local / regional electrical safety authority decides it is going to start "cracking down" on your methods of practice and components, you will be very glad that there is a record of all this debate. It is happening in jurisdictions all over N. America.

More then anything, I think this debate is of great value to Joey and Unique. They have just recently opened up distribution here in Ontario through Central Irrigation. I would assume that they would like to have a good understanding of the marketplace that they have entered into. Getting their products properly approved for sale and installation here might be important to them.

When is advancing someone's knowledge and understanding of an issue really that much of a burden. As I said, you might just need this information in the future and now it is on record for all.

The wrestling and wagering banter is just that.... banter... between two passionate professionals.

Have a great day.

JoeyD
12-12-2007, 04:43 PM
James regardless of how much we may disagree and how bad I may want to snap your arm in an arm wrestling match with my super human strength I do appreciate your passion and will to advance the industry. I have read your Bio and you are a very decent man and an asset to this industry. I apologize for my aggressive comments as sometimes my Italian temper gets the best of me. I do find this beneficial to Unique I also find this beneficial for all who may read this.

Now lets talk aluminum again.........LOL

Joey D.