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Mike M
12-07-2007, 08:38 AM
Almost soiled myself this morning cruising the Nightscaping website to look at James's deck light.

Pro-Scapes
12-07-2007, 08:51 AM
Mike G used to use nightscaping and still swears by their connectors.

Im sure if he needed a 1 off fixture and only for a job or 2 he it would be MUCH cheaper to go thru nightscaping or another manufacture than incur the charges of his molds lead times not to mention his minimum quanity.

That light looks pretty slick for mounting under eaves or where you could hide it up in a pergola/arbor type area. Pretty compact

pete scalia
12-07-2007, 09:05 AM
We don't see Gambino bragging about it or trying to sell it on here though like someone else.

Mike M
12-07-2007, 09:42 AM
Pete, as a disclaimer, James referred to the deck light after I requested ideas on products. It also seems like a nice option for docks, but I'm concerned about double-hull boats getting lines snagged.

How about this for a dock light: bore a small hole and mount a light underneath. The product could have a rectagular flush-mounted cover with a paver-type strong lense in the middle. This could be mounted alongside cleats. As an open galre, they would only need to be bright enough to illuminate the cleat. Boaters could locate their dock easily. Would be nice touch for restaurants that have docks.

Just getting ahead of myself again, sorry.

Pro-Scapes
12-07-2007, 10:09 AM
try terraDock lights. I wouldnt trust some surface mounted screws holiding a light down to hold my boat thats for sure.

I think TerraDek is the only place you can get terradock... i know paul uses or has used em before.

pete scalia
12-07-2007, 10:15 AM
How many times in ones lifetime would one have the opportunity to use a dock light fixture? 90% of the population lives inland with no access to ocean or lakes. In fact I'm gonna imagine that if you are coming into a dock in a boat and one of those lights is mounted on a dock it's gonna be pretty close to eye level and you are going to be looking directly into the lamp compartment and be blinded. probably end up crashing the boat through the dock. Show me a bullet and maybe I can get excited over it. I live on an island surrounded by water and never once had the occasion to install a dock light. The world can get along just fine without docklights. In fact I wish they'd introduce legislation to outlaw them. I wish they'd do the same about granola and Granola peddling. Thank you.

irrig8r
12-07-2007, 10:41 AM
Pete, as a disclaimer, James referred to the deck light after I requested ideas on products. It also seems like a nice option for docks, but I'm concerned about double-hull boats getting lines snagged.

How about this for a dock light: bore a small hole and mount a light underneath. The product could have a rectagular flush-mounted cover with a paver-type strong lense in the middle. This could be mounted alongside cleats. As an open galre, they would only need to be bright enough to illuminate the cleat. Boaters could locate their dock easily. Would be nice touch for restaurants that have docks.

Just getting ahead of myself again, sorry.

Wouldn't work very well for floating docks...

As I recall, James is an avid boater and lives near a big beautiful lake where a lot of wealthy people keep vacation homes... nice niche market if you ask me. Anyway, I think he worked this fixture out pretty well for its intended use.

I don't know what docks are used for in Long Island, but apparently not nighttime recreational boating.

irrig8r
12-07-2007, 10:52 AM
We don't see Gambino bragging about it or trying to sell it on here though like someone else.

No, actually Mike used to brag about his other custom built fixtures, but as far as I know didn't make them available for sale even though some people asked.

JoeyD
12-07-2007, 10:59 AM
That light is hideous!

irrig8r
12-07-2007, 11:00 AM
How many times in ones lifetime would one have the opportunity to use a dock light fixture? 90% of the population lives inland with no access to ocean or lakes. ...Thank you.


You're welcome. See http://www.census.gov

From the 2000 US Census:

In 2005, there were 673 coastal counties in the 50 states and the District of Columbia, grouped here into 5 regions: North Atlantic (Maine through Virginia), South Atlantic (North Carolina through Miami-Dade County, Florida), Gulf of Mexico (Monroe County, Florida through Texas), Great Lakes, and Pacific.

Population Growth in Coast Counties
The coastal population has grown substantially since 1950:
Year Coastal Population
1950 75.2 million
1960 94.6 million
1970 109 million
1980 119.8 million
1990 133.4 million
2000 148.3 million
2005 155.2 million

In the 1950s the percentage population increase for coastal areas was more than twice that of non-coastal areas. Since then, percentage gains have been more similar for the two areas. Non-coastal areas have higher rates of population growth in the 1970s, 1990s, and post-2000 era.

Percentage Increases in Coast and Non-coastal Population by Time Period
Time Period Coastal Non-coastal
1950 to 1960 25.8 11.4
1960 to 1970 16.3 10
1970 to 1980 8.9 14.4
1980 to 1990 11.3 8.1
1990 to 2000 11.2 15.4
2000 to 2005 4.7 6.1

The overall population increased between 1950 and 2005 was 106.1% for coastal areas and 75.8% for non-coastal areas.

Since 1970, the coastal counties share of the population has remained at a relatively stable 53-54%.

irrig8r
12-07-2007, 11:11 AM
That light is hideous!

Its purpose is to provide a soft downlight from eaves onto a wall. If used properly, the fixture itself would not even be seen.

Basically, whoever uploaded and oriented the photo did a crappy job. For one, I've only ever seen it used in white, to blend in with white colored eaves, but NS will custom color them for you to match whatever RAL paint color you have...

http://www.nightscaping.com/fixt_specs_notemp/gambino_specs.htm

http://www.nightscaping.com/linedrwpdfs/gambino.pdf

" Hide the Gambinoliter behind eaves or patio covers to provide soft yet functional downlighting for outdoor dining and sitting areas. This fixture offers you multiple shielding options and unlimited positioning capabilities built-in to the standard design. The Gambinoliter is available in any of Nightscaping’s® powder-coat finishes or the custom color of your choice. "

pete scalia
12-07-2007, 12:17 PM
No, actually Mike used to brag about his other custom built fixtures, but as far as I know didn't make them available for sale even though some people asked.

Probably cause they're fashioned from common plumbing pipes and fittings.

pete scalia
12-07-2007, 12:19 PM
Its purpose is to provide a soft downlight from eaves onto a wall. If used properly, the fixture itself would not even be seen.

Basically, whoever uploaded and oriented the photo did a crappy job. For one, I've only ever seen it used in white, to blend in with white colored eaves, but NS will custom color them for you to match whatever RAL paint color you have...

http://www.nightscaping.com/fixt_specs_notemp/gambino_specs.htm

http://www.nightscaping.com/linedrwpdfs/gambino.pdf

" Hide the Gambinoliter behind eaves or patio covers to provide soft yet functional downlighting for outdoor dining and sitting areas. This fixture offers you multiple shielding options and unlimited positioning capabilities built-in to the standard design. The Gambinoliter is available in any of Nightscaping’s® powder-coat finishes or the custom color of your choice. "

So Gambino designs lights for Nightscaping too besides his own pipe fittings?

irrig8r
12-07-2007, 12:57 PM
Well there are some around here who seem think it could just as easily have been called the Scalialiter, but I keep telling them they're confusing two different guys... even if they both claim to be from Lawn Guyland.... (that's the phonetic version for us non New Yorkers to pronounce it correctly.)

:)

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-07-2007, 05:54 PM
How many times in ones lifetime would one have the opportunity to use a dock light fixture? Depends where you work I suppose... here we have 250,000 fresh water lakes. Muskoka is dominated by waterfront residential properties and 99% of my clients have docks, boathouses and multiple boats. 90% of the population lives inland with no access to ocean or lakes. Hmmm really? My degree and background in Demography and Economic Geography tells me you are incorrect, again. In fact I'm gonna imagine that if you are coming into a dock in a boat and one of those lights is mounted on a dock it's gonna be pretty close to eye level and you are going to be looking directly into the lamp compartment and be blinded. So NOT the case. Most of our dock surfaces are 18" above the waterline, some at 24". Unless you are coming in to the dock on a Kayak there is no glare or view into the fixture at all. These are Dark Sky Friendly fixtures, the only DSF dock lights on the market. Show me a bullet and maybe I can get excited over it. I live on an island surrounded by water and never once had the occasion to install a dock light. Perhaps your client's are not affluent enough to have waterfront infrastructure. The world can get along just fine without docklights. In fact I wish they'd introduce legislation to outlaw them. The INTEGRA Liter was developed in response to local regulations that limit the type of lighting that can be installed in waterfront application. It is a nice, solid, effective, approved fixture for the application. Others have found many other applications for the fixture too. Decks, Patios, Delineating paths, Creating interesting 360deg. patterns on walls etc etc. Build it and they will come.
I wish they'd do the same about granola and Granola peddling. Jealous!Thank you.


Have a great day.

NightScenes
12-10-2007, 04:18 PM
I could use that Gambino lighter quite well over garage doors and such. It would disappear under the soffit.

I do use several Terradock lighted dock cleats in a year. They do very well and only 5 watts each.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-10-2007, 04:29 PM
I could use that Gambino lighter quite well over garage doors and such. It would disappear under the soffit.

I do use several Terradock lighted dock cleats in a year. They do very well and only 5 watts each.

I have used 2 of the Gambino Liter fixtures for just that application... over the garage doors, flush mounted to the underside of the soffit. They blended right in and work very well in the application.

Have a great day.

pete scalia
12-10-2007, 10:40 PM
I have used 2 of the Gambino Liter fixtures for just that application... over the garage doors, flush mounted to the underside of the soffit. They blended right in and work very well in the application.

Have a great day.

That's what I've been saying all along, Gambino is a Genious and deserves the nobel peace prize.

ChampionLS
12-12-2007, 04:36 AM
This thread is getting really funny! :dizzy:

JoeyD
12-12-2007, 11:52 AM
I have used 2 of the Gambino Liter fixtures for just that application... over the garage doors, flush mounted to the underside of the soffit. They blended right in and work very well in the application.

Have a great day.

I hope you didnt power them up with a UL 1838 TF. That wouldnt be up to code now would it??

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-12-2007, 12:19 PM
I hope you didnt power them up with a UL 1838 TF. That wouldnt be up to code now would it??

How would using a UL1838 Transformer, mounted and installed correctly on the outside wall of the garage, wired to the approved fixtures using CSA wire and connectors, not be up to code Joey?

JoeyD
12-12-2007, 12:42 PM
ohhhhh James..Exactly, this is how lame UL listings can be. See I know as well as you do that there is no danger. BUT IF YOU ARE SO UP TO CODE then you should know that you cannot legally use a UL 1838 TF to power up a light on a structure. You can only power up lights in the landscape.

I guess they dont teach that in the NS class?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-12-2007, 01:12 PM
ohhhhh James..Exactly, this is how lame UL listings can be. See I know as well as you do that there is no danger. BUT IF YOU ARE SO UP TO CODE then you should know that you cannot legally use a UL 1838 TF to power up a light on a structure. You can only power up lights in the landscape.

I guess they dont teach that in the NS class?

Sorry Joey, conjecture is not enough to convince me on this one. Please quote chapter and verse of UL1838, showing where it supports your claim.

Also, we have the CEC that supports our installation of approved LV outdoor luminaires on structures. The CEC (NEC where you are) is THE CODE for installations. If the CEC says it is ok, then it is ok.

johnh
12-12-2007, 02:17 PM
ohhhhh James..Exactly, this is how lame UL listings can be. See I know as well as you do that there is no danger. BUT IF YOU ARE SO UP TO CODE then you should know that you cannot legally use a UL 1838 TF to power up a light on a structure. You can only power up lights in the landscape.

I guess they dont teach that in the NS class?

Hi Joey,
This is an extract from the UL1838 listing IFDH.
"Recessed luminaires (lighting units) intended for installation in a building wall or similar application are provided with a means to connect conduit and may be installed such that insulation (and other combustible materials are) is in contact with the luminaire (lighting unit)."
Link to the complete document http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/showpage.html?name=IFDH.GuideInfo&ccnshorttitle=Landscape+Lighting+Systems,+Low+Voltage&objid=1074096561&cfgid=1073741824&version=versionless&parent_id=1073988149&sequence=1
Although it does not specifically say it can be mounted ON a structure, certainly if it can be recessed into one, it may.
CSA TILB-58B also permits surface and recessed mounted applications, providing they are wired correctly to code.
I would be interested to know where you read that though.
JH

JoeyD
12-12-2007, 02:20 PM
UL1838
1.5 The luminaires and low voltage system components covered by this standard are intended for garden, walkway, patio areas, or similar outdoor locations and for certain indoor locations such as atriums and shopping malls. The power units are to be installed indoors or outdoors in accordance with the marking on the product (see 6.3).


1.5 added August 7, 2007

So I ask you, if the NEC is the code for installations and that is what you go by then why all this fuss regarding UL listings?? I mean the NEC clearly states in

NEC Article 411 Lighting Systems Operating at 30 Volts or Less

NEC Atricle 411.4 LOCATIONS NOT PERMITTED

Not once does it mention it is not permitted in Landscape!!!

So in fact if you go by NEC there should never be an argument as to a UL 2108, UL 1598, or a UL 506 unit.

Again we can dive more intot his. This is an rgument nor you or I will ever win becuase our loyalties and views lie in opposite areas.

NightScenes
12-12-2007, 02:30 PM
I believe that the real issue would be that the fixtures are within 10' of water and therefore should be on a pool and spa rated transformer. This is one of those areas where UL is really freaky. Why anyone would use a "standard" instead of code is beyond me.

JoeyD
12-12-2007, 02:35 PM
Hi Joey,
This is an extract from the UL1838 listing IFDH.
"Recessed luminaires (lighting units) intended for installation in a building wall or similar application are provided with a means to connect conduit and may be installed such that insulation (and other combustible materials are) is in contact with the luminaire (lighting unit)."
Link to the complete document http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/showpage.html?name=IFDH.GuideInfo&ccnshorttitle=Landscape+Lighting+Systems,+Low+Voltage&objid=1074096561&cfgid=1073741824&version=versionless&parent_id=1073988149&sequence=1
Although it does not specifically say it can be mounted ON a structure, certainly if it can be recessed into one, it may.
CSA TILB-58B also permits surface and recessed mounted applications, providing they are wired correctly to code.
I would be interested to know where you read that though.
JH


LOL....It all comes down to interpetation. SO what is it. Do you guys go by what UL 1838 says or by the CEc/NEC? What side of the fence are you on here? "Although it does not specifically say it can be mounted ON a structure, certainly if it can be recessed into one, it may."
You sound like an inspector interpeting the code in his own way. Again, we have been dealing with this for so many years and it is always the same stuff over and over and over.

Believe me I have been around long enough to have already heard all of these arguments. It comes back to the NEC, we always have said it is the NEC that makes the rules, UL is just there to collect a check. So if you are pro 1838 and that is the law then the CEC and NEC should not dictate your installations. You should abide by UL 1838 and use 1838 wire, connections (which I know NS has), lamps, fixtures, timers, and whatever other component you use in your system and it should only be used to light up LANDSCAPE! I mean that is it's intended use right, LANDSCAPE LIGHTING?Good luck finding 1838 components but again 1838 is for a SYSTEM not just a Luminaire or Power Supply. SO how are you going to argue that they are now ok to be put on a structure.

So you can whip out all the same articles and listing information that has been read to us forever or you can get on the conference call tommorow with us and go through it all as gentelman verbally.

I do understand that it is completley safe, just like it is completely safe that if my TF's are ok to power up lights in a house or on a structure why would putting it in dirt hurt anything. It has all the same protection as any other unit that is ok for dirt and landscape. Your only argument are far fetched scenarios of lightning striking while wiring the 22v tap and standing in a puddle of water.


Anyway, I am going to post our UL/NEC/Code conference call number up. We will provide the forum so we can all get on and discuss this as gentleman. I will moderate and allow Nate to represent Unique. And again all is welcome, manufacturers and distributors alike.

Joey D.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-12-2007, 02:39 PM
And the beat goes on...............................................

JoeyD
12-12-2007, 02:46 PM
And the beat goes on...............................................
Is that it?

So are you going to join us tomorrow for a further discussion. This could be very good for you to hear. I am learning more and more as the day goes on and I have my UL and NEC books opened up. I need to knock the dust off of them anyway before AOLP so this is all good stuff. I just wish it was dead, I think UL 1838 is just an old school listing for Malibu systems and not for the professionals like everyone who participates here. Sure it makes things a bit safer but so would a 55 mph governor on a car or truck.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-12-2007, 03:27 PM
Joey flip back over to the other thread. (Questions for FX users)

It isnt about UL1838 or UL506 or UL5085 or UL1598 or CSA 66-1988 at all... It is about using tested, certified and listed products IN THE APPLICATION FOR WHICH THEY ARE APPROVED.

This is the crux!

If you had inspectors breathing down your neck, looking into the products you are using, cross referencing them to the tables and standards and finding out that you are using a transformer in an application for which it has not been approved, what would you do?

It isnt good enough to simply send off a product to a testing lab and have them test it to some arbitrary standard to which you are certain they will pass... You have to have them tested to the standard that applies to their application.

In our industry that is UL1838 and CSA 22.2 66.1, 66.2, and 66.3. . Like it or not, UL1838 is the standard for Low Voltage Landscape Lighting Systems. It is the standard that covers the application of this equipment for use in a low voltage landscape lighting installation. As I understand it, it is currently going through revisions and updates.

turf maniac
12-12-2007, 04:13 PM
Almost soiled myself this morning cruising the Nightscaping website to look at James's deck light.

I got them ther mag flashlights taped up all round my dec and they luk grated.

irrig8r
12-12-2007, 04:26 PM
I got them ther mag flashlights taped up all round my dec and they luk grated.

Hey Gambino, is that you logging on undercover again?

pete scalia
12-12-2007, 09:08 PM
What a trouble maker that Gambino is with his surface mounted lights. I think someone ought to run him out of the business.:dizzy: