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View Full Version : New dump coming soon...


ProTouch Groundscapes
12-07-2007, 09:31 AM
ok, well we've had our 98 c3500 dump since it was new. 4x2, L boxes, 8' dump with drop sides, 5.7L. currently has ~76,000 miles, Its been great to us, towing and hauling everything we've needed.

we did some upgrades on this thing this year including:
super duty air bags in rear 5000lb capacity
timbrens in front
extra heavy duty coils in front
coil spring spacers in front
235/85/r16 BFG All Terrains in rear
new alternator

These upgrades (except the rear bags) were basically put in place to handle the Blizzard Power Plow 810 on it,

i know the transmission is slowly going on it, the front end (tie rods, pitman arm, idle arm assembly, etc.) is starting to go and we are considering a medium duty 4500, 5500 class truck by 2010. I want to start looking around now so we i know exactly what we need.

I dont want a chevy med. duty because the entire truck is too large for the area we operate in, especially costly to pull our lawn trailer around (gonna get an 8x20 enclosed)

So it comes down to the dodge vs. ford. id only consider the ford if its a great price. Its gotta be 4x4 and diesel. Im thinking a landscape dump like this knapheide:
http://zoresco.com/images/uploads/Knapheide%20-%20Landscaper%20-%202.jpg

so basically im asking your guy's input between the ford and dodges, i love the way the dodges look, so what do you guys think?

DBL
12-07-2007, 10:16 AM
its going to be a wait and see how the new dodges work out i heard they re did their frames and that new 6.7 cummins is supposed to be awesome but i would get one i love dodges

ProTouch Groundscapes
12-07-2007, 12:10 PM
right now we get about 3 tons in the bed of our truck, it will be nice to be able to move up to 5 tons.

i def want something with a solid front axle, ive been turned off by the ind. fronts of the gm's, seriously torsion bars??

Marek
12-07-2007, 04:27 PM
I have the above body on a 550 and love it. Plenty of room for tools and such. The next one will have barn doors though. The new dodge is tempting but still a hole new truck. Ford has tons of cash back right now. You might want to look at IH trucks too. They will still have plenty of life after the payments end.

ProTouch Groundscapes
12-07-2007, 05:35 PM
what do you mean by IH?

do you run a leaf box in the fall on that body? if we get that it looks pretty easy to make a top for it and attach a leaf loader somewhere on the tailgate.

Looking Good Lawn Service
12-07-2007, 07:16 PM
By "IH" he means the old International Harvester truck and tractor brand. International is officially "Navistar" and has been for at least 2 decades. A new one will be much more than any new F550. And maitainance and fuel cost and insurance will be much more. Plus, the enigine is still a 250,000 mile engine just like any pickup diesel. And it will be slower reaction than a pickup size 550 or under. Good truck for a big van body and such, its most popular application. And yes I have had several Internationals, Petes, KW's, Freightliner, Volvo, ect...so I know trucks. If you dont have to haul a huge amount of weight stay with a F550 or similar from GM. Good Luck.

hosejockey2002
12-07-2007, 08:49 PM
I dont want a chevy med. duty because the entire truck is too large for the area we operate in,

FWIW the Chevy Kodiaks are really not larger than the F550s. They have that appearance because the cabs are larger and sit higher, but overall wheelbase is actually a bit shorter than a comparable F550, as is the turning radius IIRC for the same cab-to-axle measurement.

SpruceLandscape
12-07-2007, 10:50 PM
If its between the Dodge and the Ford and you definately want a diesel, go with the Dodge. If you are open to something different, look into the Isuzu or Mitsubishi cab overs. Thats my next move for this spring.

Gravel Rat
12-07-2007, 10:51 PM
I do hope you know a 4x4 dually really doesn't do that well in snow. A 4x4 helps a little in the dirt but the trucks are so heavy they sink before the front wheels can pull themselves out. A locker in the rear diff of a 2wd does just about as good as a 4x4. In the snow especially out here on the West Coast you got to chain up a dually. In this last snow fall we had last week I had 1000lbs of gravel on the back of my 03 F-450 and I have recapped tires with bandag gripper tread which is designed for snow. I'am ordering chains for the truck even with the locker the both wheels just spin.

The Chevy you have now will do just as good as a 4x4 in the snow. Only srw 4x4s do better in the snow.

Out here once you drive on the snow or spin your wheels it packs into ice you need chains to cut down to the pavement. Even plow trucks with steel cutting edges can't scrape the snow off the road once its packed.

As for the new trucks are you really going to want one ?

The new 6.4 Ford is going to be a nightmare to work on it has lots of power but when you open the hood its holy crap. The new Dodge 4500-5500 trucks are unproven you probably want to wait 2 years and find out if the trucks are any good or not. The new 6.7 Cummins is suffering from the emmision system problems because Dodge and Cummins are lagging behind in the emmission regulations.

Are you really going to make that much money plowing snow to warrant 4x4 when you can buy a 2 ton cabover now for less money. I usually don't reccomend Cab over trucks but they are being built better than what is out there now. If you really wanted a 4x4 then you would have to get a Mitsu cabover.

The second choice would be look into a Hino 185 its not a 4x4 but its a reliable truck that will go for double the trouble free miles than a Ford or Dodge.

What do you mainly do with the truck ?

A cheap option would be try find a Chevy 3500HD which is a 1.5 ton truck it has 19.5 wheels search for one with low miles on it gas or diesel and fix it up. If you like 5.9 Cummins engines swap one into a 3500HD then you have a diesel truck with a heavy frame and springs the truck will easily carry 6000lbs or more. The truck looks decent its not a ulgly duckling like the new 4500 Chevs.

The 2003 Ford F-450 I have now is probably the last new truck I will buy its the only truck you can actually work on. If you plan on keeping a truck longer than 4 to 5 years plan on expensive repairs after the fifth year.

Good Luck on what you decide.

supercuts
12-08-2007, 09:34 AM
i have vertually the same body but made by rugby. it doenst have the L pack, and is taller and a 12'. barn doors & tailgate is the way to go. very easy to build a box for fall cleanups. i mount the vac out front. this body is perfect because it has enough room between the cab and body ( and no cab protector ) that it allows me to have a square metal pipe run vertically holding the pvc tube when the body dumps. mine actaully has a chipper top available in 4' sections for the arbor industy which can be used as a leaf box.

as for brand choice, bottom line has always been dollar for me. they are all close in creature comforts and performance. sure one might hold more, turn tighter, have a bit more power, so its really your call. ive been happy with my fords. i almost just bought the dodge over the ford until i found a really good deal on the ford. the new 6.4 is awsome. it runs like a gas engine, even in the cold. the new 6.7 cummins started like my 7.3l powerstroke. had to use the glow plugs and it thought twice about starting.

ProTouch Groundscapes
12-08-2007, 10:55 AM
Gravel Rat- the reason im pushing for a 4x4 is that we do lots of landscaping work in the summer months too. There have been too many times where our current truck had gotten itself stuck because we use highway tires for better gas mileage and towing. We have had to back into customer's yards to deliver mulch, topsoil etc. and had once had to bring our 2500hd to pull the loaded dump when it had sunk in. I would just like to avoid those situations completely. Plus a 4x4 would be able to stack snow better, we do a few lots where stacking is absolutely necessary when we get a heavy snowfall (obviously nothing like u guys get in B.C.

i know the best setup for snow is a narrow tire that will work its way down to pavement rather than a wide one that just packs the snow.

as long as the dump we have now lasts, we arent getting a new one till this one goes, which i estimate is about 2 more years if that. So thats y im giving the OEM's the benefit of the doubt to sort those problems out in those 2 years

If i get a cabover then i would prolly want a switch n go system so i can get a beavertail bed and a dump box as well.

i know what the 3500HD's are but i heard the old 6.5L diesels in those were headaches.

My main motivation right now is a diesel truck that can haul around 4-5 tons of payload. We do alot of mulch jobs and thats where we are looking to make up some money. Depending on what tools we have in the L pack our dump weighs around 8200Lbs. and we usually end up loading it to about 3.3 tons max, i know thats alot but its been good to us and really hauls like a champ with the 5.7L

We have an L pack on our dump right now, because my dad is a stone/brick mason and he used to use this truck alot and would keep all his tools in there and use to haul alot of concrete which is why we have the mason's dump as well.

Littletruck
12-08-2007, 12:14 PM
I am partial to the NPR, but my dream truck would be a 4x4 FUSO cab over with a small diesel and a flat bed dump.

Add a snow plow and have a 4 seasons money maker.

ProTouch Groundscapes
12-08-2007, 02:18 PM
i was checkin out the sites for the isuzus and fuso's, not bad, how do the handle plows? ill check out plowsite.com.

but as i was saying something with 17,500 or 19,000 gvwr would be ideal, or basically this bad boy:
http://www.truckpaper.com/images/Truck/fullsize/73613163.jpg
http://www.truckpaper.com/images/Truck/fullsize/73613165.jpg
its got that 12' rugby landscape dump, with a combo gate: top barn doors, bottom swing gate

7 passenger crew cab, power everything, rear heat/ac, 17,950 gvwr all for $47,988

Littletruck
12-08-2007, 07:15 PM
That's the 4x4 ain't it? I love those. I know the NPR is not really a snow plow truck at all, but the FUSO is along with a few others ( I tried to get a plow for mine and the price exceeded the value of the truck..) I guess it just comes down to what you are gona do with the truck, but I like the flat bed or at the very least the ability to remove the bed sides in the event you want to side load or haul a salt spreader etc.. Some day the truck may want to haul freight or what ever, I know alot of guys push snow in the winter, but a guy could also deliver freight etc.. in the off season.


But for that price I don't see you setting up a Dodge or Ford to haul the crew and cargo, and that bedside will never get dented..

Gravel Rat
12-08-2007, 10:12 PM
I think you will find that the 4x4 F-450 or F-550 will sink just as fast as a 2wd. I did allot of question asking myself to guys with 4x4 trucks all service and welding trucks. They all said the same thing it helps a little but once the tires start to spin your sunk.

As for a F-450 or F-550 carrying 5 tons isn't going to be legal your going to need a 20,000lb or more gvw truck. As for a Mitsu cabover your out of luck the 4x4 version only comes with a 14,500 gvw.

That crew cab cabover will probably carry 4 ton but you would have to keep the truck light as possible. As for a cabover for plowing you may overload the front axle capacity as there is already lots of weight on it.

I have been in some bad places with my F-450s places where I shouldn't have gone into. The rule of thumb I use is if its soft I won't drive into it. If I feel the truck starting to sink I stop and drive out. I have learned that from driving tandem axle dump.

I have been in places with 3.5-4 ton on my F-450 climbing driveways and getting wheel spin climbing them. One of the jobs carrying 3 tons of short logs with axle deep mud you could hear it dragging under the door sills. I kept my foot steady on the throttle and got through it.

Some driveways are steep enough backing down you need a cable to the front of the truck controlling the decent. Most of the time I don't have anybody else to put a cable too. You back down and have one shot at it, if you lock the front wheels up you will slide around and get crooked in the driveway.

I have had a few scares I never had to call a wrecker yet but I had to be pushed out of a driveway with a mini excavator. Backing down with a empty truck got too close to a nice drop off edge tried pulling ahead I couldn't. Open the drivers door there isn't enough ground to stand on to get out I had to get out on the passenger side.

Lots of fun soon as you leave the paved public road your in for a adventure with residential driveways. There really isn't anything I haven't seen in 15 years of 1 ton trucking.

lawnkid
12-09-2007, 09:18 PM
I've always been a ford guy but the new sterling mid size trucks look nice and are supposed to be a great truck.

wayside
12-09-2007, 11:54 PM
i have a ford 07 f550 crewcab and i love it no problems at all and there frame no one can top it so to me would go with ford!

ProTouch Groundscapes
12-11-2007, 12:07 PM
a dodge 5500 chassis cab with 168.5" wheel base and 84" cab-axle length has a base curb weight of: 7,516 Lbs, payload capacity of 11,980 Lbs. and GVWR of 19,500.

so approximating the weight of a dump bed, (im guessing on this completely) weight around 3,000 Lbs. approx.

7516+3000=10,516Lbs. curb weight of truck+bed
19,500-10,516=8,984 Lbs ~ 9,000 ~ 4.5 tons of payload. so with a 22K sticker on the plates i dont see why you wouldnt be able to haul approximately 5 tons, (the loaders are never perfect) we are definitely gonna throw some super duty airbags on there as soon as we get it, keep the springs lasting longer.

TXNSLighting
12-11-2007, 12:21 PM
id go with the ford. im sure you can still find a new 07 6.0 450-550. ( you can still work on them after warranty is gone) i dont think you want to get any of the new diesels. think about when the warrantys gone and you have all that emmisions crap! the fords are the best wrk trucks out there. the dodge has the cummins, but you have to get a dodge to get it. they are just not any good. and its just not worth it.

ProTouch Groundscapes
12-11-2007, 01:03 PM
when you guys talk about the emissions crap, what exactly do you mean? all the extra junk they put on there to keep em smog legal? b/c i know these trucks are exempt from E-checks.

So if i do end up getting a Ford, the 6.0 powerstroke is the engine you guys most recommend, there are so many variations on the pstroke, that ive never really kept up with in the fords.

Gravel Rat
12-11-2007, 02:02 PM
I think your curb (tare) weight will be heavier than that. A Ford F-550 just with a flatdeck and my F-450 with a flatdeck is 9300lbs empty. I have a regular cab truck with no extras hanging of the deck. If your going with a full dump box with toolboxes your going to push the weight of the truck to 12,000lbs.

Dodge hasn't even really got these 4500 and 5500 trucks on the road yet so have to wait and see what happens with them. You know for one thing if Dodge hasn't strengthened up their truck bodies the heavier chassis and springs will twist the truck apart. Even Fords run into that the old "FSuperduty" Fords were even worse because the chassis was even more rigid.

Its up to you but I would take a proven F-550 over a 5500 Dodge that they only started building this year. Dodge hasn't built a larger capacity truck than a 1 ton for 30 years. If the tow truck operators buy the Dodges and keep them they might be a good truck. The tow truck industry tests them to the limit.

ProTouch Groundscapes
12-11-2007, 02:11 PM
there are no toolboxes going on this truck.
its probably gonna be a regular cab.

im just using the dodge for example, they have the most indepth specs. on their site.

im not limiting myself to them either.

our 98 c3500 dump- reg cab, L pack, 5.7L, auto tranny, with crysteel masons dump body includes drop sides weighs 8500-8700 pounds on the scale depending what tools are in the boxes and with me weighing 200lbs.

TXNSLighting
12-11-2007, 02:35 PM
when you guys talk about the emissions crap, what exactly do you mean? all the extra junk they put on there to keep em smog legal? b/c i know these trucks are exempt from E-checks.

So if i do end up getting a Ford, the 6.0 powerstroke is the engine you guys most recommend, there are so many variations on the pstroke, that ive never really kept up with in the fords.

yes all the crap on the engine thats emmision related, and that pesky DPF. (diesel particulate filter). the new ones will not be exempt much longer.
Not really recommend it, but thats what comes with it. if its a 06-07 then the majority are great engines. and they have lotsa power. and theres only 3 variations of the powerstroke...

Gravel Rat
12-11-2007, 03:18 PM
The new emmisions stuff is only going to get worse look at what is happened to Ford with the 6.4. Went from a 6.0 engine that when you opened the hood you seen a engine. Open the hood on a 6.4 you don't even see the engine it is covered in tubes and hoses etc. The 6.7 Cummins is having emmision system problems. The Duramax isn't any different.

The fuel economy from Ford Dodge and Chev isn't that great the 6.0 Ford was probably the last diesel P/U that will break the 15mpg mark.

Ford and Dodge have the one advantage in the 1.5 and 2 ton truck market which is they look like a ordinary 1 ton truck from a distance. For me thats a big plus because it sure saves the DOT from hasseling you. When your a small operation you don't need some truck inspector pull you over and start checking you for violations. I don't run illegal anyhow but the same inspector can find things on your truck that really does cause any safety concerns.

The DOT here looks for burned out dash lights or burned out lights in general. If you have a ripped drivers seat they will ding you for it. Mud flaps they also check. They will find something wrong with a brandnew truck just to give you a fine. Yes we all run a little overloaded sometimes its hard not to the truck can handle the weight fine but "legally" its overloaded. I never grossly overload maybe 500-1000lbs over.

The Chev 4500-5500 stands out like a sore thumb the DOT can spot one a mile away. They look too much like a medium duty truck.

If your area has truck restrictions etc or your stuck to truck routes you can't sneak through those areas with a truck that stands out so much.

Here in B.C. hwy scales and brake checks a F-450 F-550 is legally supposed to stop at. You can sneak by them by getting mixed into the freeway traffic the inspectors at the scales don't notice you.

J&R Landscaping
12-11-2007, 10:17 PM
What can DOT do to you if you have a torn or ripped drivers seat? I've never heard of that before?

Gravel Rat
12-12-2007, 02:27 AM
You "Legally" can't have a ripped drivers seat on the drivers side and duct tape isn't classed as a seat repair. You need to use a full seat cover.

The DOT can get you for very minor things they will do it more if you got mouthy to them.

Cracked and chipped windshields is another thing the DOT loves to get people with.

A leaking steering box is a out of service condition ie your truck is being towed.

TXNSLighting
12-12-2007, 09:46 AM
yeh the DOT are picky picky people! i hate them with a passion.

Gravel Rat
12-12-2007, 04:01 PM
The DOT get on a power trip and try justify their job. I hate it when they are giving you fines for stuff that isn't major safety concerns.

Major safety concerns in my mind are Tires,brakes,suspension and steering.

The area has more troubles with RVers running overloaded or unable to handle the vehical they are driving.

J&R Landscaping
12-13-2007, 01:38 PM
DOT around here is bad. I've been pulled over at randoom spot checks 4 times since August 1. Mainly, just to make sure the trailer is hooked up properly and that everything is secured to the trailer. Its been a quick stop each time, less then 10 minutes and I'm on my way again.

Ramairfreak98ss
12-13-2007, 05:50 PM
id go with the ford. im sure you can still find a new 07 6.0 450-550. ( you can still work on them after warranty is gone) i dont think you want to get any of the new diesels. think about when the warrantys gone and you have all that emmisions crap! the fords are the best wrk trucks out there. the dodge has the cummins, but you have to get a dodge to get it. they are just not any good. and its just not worth it.

Ive always been partial to ford, but the new Dodge 25/3500s are awesome looking trucks! I sat in a 4500 dump at the landscape show and it was nice with navigation and all! It was an extended cab and bigger in back than my 06 superduty is. Of course up until now, the dodge's trans were what hold most guys back from buying them over the GM or Ford.

But i agree totally with the new diesels, i thought my 6.0 was a little "risky" lol. I hear guys say the 6.4 Powerstrokes and new duramax feel very powerful, but what are the downfalls? Id take a 6.0, 5.9 cummins or 6.6 06 duramax anyday over any of the new diesels.

I posted a while back about trying to get a Ford F550 dump, since theyre difficult to find "used" in the 05-07 model years, and dealers all over have tons of 08s.. i just dont want one of them, theyre ugly, new emissions engine, more money and i like the 07 and older style. I think thats whats keeping the price up some on these models.

TXNSLighting
12-14-2007, 11:51 AM
Ive always been partial to ford, but the new Dodge 25/3500s are awesome looking trucks! I sat in a 4500 dump at the landscape show and it was nice with navigation and all! It was an extended cab and bigger in back than my 06 superduty is. Of course up until now, the dodge's trans were what hold most guys back from buying them over the GM or Ford.



well seein as tho dodge does not have an extended cab...theyve always been good looking trucks, (its the same truck since 03) but fact is its still a dodge. they just dont care to build a great quality truck. its just an ok quality truck. the new ones are gettin better. with time they will be alot better. i like the new super duty, i think it looks great. and dodges trans really havent been bad since 04.5 trucks. My dodge will be gone, and i most likely will not buy another one. ive learned my lesson. the only good thing that came from this truck was learnin about the cummins. how great great great of an engine it is. i am sold on the cummins, and you will eventually see me with a king ranch cummins. :cool2:

SpruceLandscape
12-14-2007, 02:13 PM
Sorry to hear about your bad experience with Dodge's, but the truth is, my 06 has been the best truck I've owned in the last 10 years!

I've had 2 chevys and a ford before this one, and they were all junk! The chevy was a great truck driveline wise, but they kept falling apart around that. The ford went through trannies and turbos all less than 8 months old! My dodge is a CTD 4x4 bighorn edition, and its got almost 30,000 miles on it and its only 16 months old. I've had it back to the dealer once for a recall when they reflashed the computer, but if it hadn't been for the notice in the mail, I wouldn't have even known there was a problem. Mine has been a great truck right down to the tires! When I leave the Dodges behind will only be to switch to the Isuzu cab overs.

TXNSLighting
12-14-2007, 05:46 PM
and some of the dodges seem to be good. but the majority of people i talk to only drive the dodge cuz of the cummins. and my consistent problems started at 35,000 miles. most in the past 7k miles. i had a couple recalls that i took it in for, (that they never told me about) it was a starting issue. very embarrasing havin a truck with dealer tags not starting...but o well. im happier with out it.