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YellowDogSVC
12-16-2007, 01:51 AM
Does anyone have any first hand experience operating an s300 and an s330? Does anyone know if the slightly more hp makes a difference? I am becoming frustrated with my s300's performance when running a brush mower. While it is productive, I think the motor has a hard time keeping up with the pump especially if I need to move the loader or travel uphill. It gets very frustrating as many of you know who run high flow hydraulics all day.

Has anyone tried the T320?

I wish Bobcat would stop playing with hp numbers. I have never gotten a straight answer on the fuel pump settings on, for example, an s250 vs. s300 which have different rated net hp.

Any thoughts?
How can CAT get sae rated 90 net hp out of the same motor they had a few years ago (201 cu in displacement) and Bobcat only get net sae 77.7 hp out of a 202 cu in displacement and only 85 hp out of a 230 cu in displacement as in the s330's new motor.
Who can explain this?

Scag48
12-16-2007, 03:17 AM
As far as I know, the S330 is the same machine except it's beefed up a little more for a higher ROC capacity, obviously. Bobcat only posts 4 more HP difference between the S300 and S330.

I seriously wonder where Bobcat is going to be in a few years, especially now under new ownership. I'm not saying that any manufacturer produces a perfect machine that is the end-all piece, but Bobcat is further from it than anyone else in the game right now I believe. Seems like every other MFG has their claim to fame, Deere is pushing power/lift capacity, Case is high capacity excavation, Cat builds a nicely equipped machine that caters to owner/operators and performance isn't paramount but is more than reasonable, New Holland is tough as nails and caters to crew oriented and fleet machines. What does Bobcat do extraordinarily well? I can't tell you anymore. There is nothing that Bobcat does these days that help them stand out from the crowd anymore. That's fine if you started with Bobcat and won't buy anything else, but the new guys shopping for their first machine are going to look at Bobcat and wonder what makes them so special? I've said it before, Bobcat is riding their reputation to the bitter end. I wish they would produce something in the 105HP range that will blow the doors of everything (again) and lead a powerhouse revolution.

Gravel Rat
12-16-2007, 04:02 AM
How many hours on the engine ?

It maybe time to refresh the injection pump and injectors then tweak the fuel a little to squeeze some more power out of it.

Does the engine pull right down when you put a load on it ?

It sounds like the hydraulic pump can't handle the work load it isn't producing enough volume.

If you talk to a hydraulic shop they can tell you how much horsepower is required to drive the pump to give the pressure and volume you are after.

The hydraulic pump will stall the engine if it was too large for the engine or she would smoke black like a freight train.

Another question when it the last time you changed the hydraulic oil and give it a good flush and replace it with some better grade oil.

I aggree with Scag Bobcat isn't what they used to be. In the early years they were the best now they are not that good.

Fieldman12
12-16-2007, 06:14 AM
It is really sad to hear everyone complain about Bobcat. How could such a great company like them fall apart. I really hope Doosan helps them get back on top where they once was. I agree with Scagg48. All Bobcat is doing is riding there name to the ground.

YellowDogSVC
12-16-2007, 12:06 PM
How many hours on the engine ?

It maybe time to refresh the injection pump and injectors then tweak the fuel a little to squeeze some more power out of it.
.


This isn't an issue of my particular machine. It's fairly new and my 2nd K series. Both were dogs. My g series was fine for what it was but only produced 31gpm not the 37 the K series puts out. For the weight, at nearly 8500 lbs with bucket, it isn't as powerful as it should be in my mind. Every series the machines get heavier but the motor hasn't changed much. I still don't understand how a 202 cu in. motor produceds 81 hp or 77.7 net (which they lowered in my manual compared to my last k series) and a 230 cu in. motor only produces 4 more hp. Is this an EPA issue where they are trying to keep tier II or tier III emissions under a certain threshold?

YellowDogSVC
12-16-2007, 12:13 PM
It is really sad to hear everyone complain about Bobcat. How could such a great company like them fall apart. I really hope Doosan helps them get back on top where they once was. I agree with Scagg48. All Bobcat is doing is riding there name to the ground.

Have you seen the prices? Just had to pick up a new grapple and it was 4k. That's about 1k more than I thought it should be. I buy a lot of Bobcat equipment and I just want some straight answers. I talked to a company rep recently but didn't get any information other than Bobcat was working on something. I'm frustrated. In my market I am competing with 200 hp grinders and crews of wetbacks with chainsaws and axes. I am trying to stay competitive as a one-man operation so I need productive machinery. Bobcat is very reliable and has the best service in this area and I like my machine however it just feels doggy and I know it is the power to weight and power to hydro pump ratio. I can feel it. It's hard to explain but those of you who live in a machine like I do know what I am talking about. You can feel the power or lack there of. You know what a machine should be able to do or at least what it could be capable of and just want that little edge. It would be interesting if there was a way to boost or hyperchip a motor. I don't want want to play with my injectors myself but that would be an option. Bobcat factory once told me the difference between s250 and s300 was the fuel delivery. They told me more fuel, more power. If CAT can squeeze 90 sae net hp out of the same size cu in motor as a large frame Bobcat, why can't Bobcat? That extra "umph" could help me keep my mower rpms up or give me that few extra hp to climb a hill and grind while the mower is going and the AC is on.

bobcat_ron
12-16-2007, 12:13 PM
Bobcat never had any good solid HP ratings on the high flow pumps, Cat and the rest of the crowd can at least give you a ball park figure, seems Bobcat's pumps just aren't as powerfull as they could be if they were a higher pressure like Cat's piston pumps.

YellowDogSVC
12-16-2007, 12:16 PM
? I've said it before, Bobcat is riding their reputation to the bitter end. I wish they would produce something in the 105HP range that will blow the doors of everything (again) and lead a powerhouse revolution.

I need a machine at 9200lbs or less to be keep under CDL. I don't want to haul with a gooseneck and my niche has me pulling with a flatbed and 16' 12k trailer. I can haul an industrial grapple and CAT HM312 mower on the flatbed and pull the S300k with bucket on the trailer. All this is under CDL and is a total weight around 24-25k lbs. I want the extra hp (and better sealed cab) in the same weight class.
I probably would have bought an s330 if it didn't have the extra weight and goofy tires. The frame is identical to the s300-s250.

bobcat_ron
12-16-2007, 12:19 PM
Get the new Cat C series if you want new, they may not thave the HP, but the hydraulic power is greater with more torque than Bobcat, and the cabs are really impressive.

YellowDogSVC
12-16-2007, 12:35 PM
Bobcat never had any good solid HP ratings on the high flow pumps, Cat and the rest of the crowd can at least give you a ball park figure, seems Bobcat's pumps just aren't as powerfull as they could be if they were a higher pressure like Cat's piston pumps.

It's not the pumps. It's the motor keeping the pump going.

YellowDogSVC
12-16-2007, 12:37 PM
Get the new Cat C series if you want new, they may not thave the HP, but the hydraulic power is greater with more torque than Bobcat, and the cabs are really impressive.

The CAT 272c, which is in the weight and lift class as the Bobcat s300 and is lighter than the s330, is 90 sae net hp compared to the bobcat s300's 77.7 net.

You guys running s220's an s250's are probably only netting around 69 hp on a 75 gross rated machine if the s300 is only netting 77.7 hp on an 81 hp machine. Take off 5 hp to run your AC and you are putting 65 hp to your wheels and pump. That's dog territory.

Just about every attachment I have except my tree shear, grader, and HM312 mulcher are Bobcat including a toolcat and s300k. Just sold one of my s300k series machines. I am a bobcat guy and have explained this to the company rep but I am not hearing anything. I have asked Bobcat for an honest explanation of why the hp sucks and why the numbers don't match from one year to the next in my manuals. I have had s300's, 1 g and 2 k's and the hp ratings have gone DOWN in the manuals or so I believe I have read.

In this game, I need a competitive advantage and a reason to keep using a certain piece of equipment. My vermeer bc 2000 has loads of power and does it's job well but doesn't get great support from Vermeer. Bobcat has the best service out here and while CAT has been good to me with the mower, I am just not sure I want to make the switch but I am thinking about it especially at the end of my tax year.

bobcat_ron
12-16-2007, 12:40 PM
That's where CAT has Bobcat beat, the A/C system is separate, only a small compressor is belt driven off the engine, I can't even tell if my A/C is on in my cab, the engine doesn't even idle down when you hit the switch by mistake, so you'll save the 5 hp in a Cat.

bobcat_ron
12-16-2007, 12:42 PM
Also, I forgot to mention that most manufacturers rate their HP ratings at the flywheel and some rate them on the pumps.

ksss
12-16-2007, 12:43 PM
You will not likely see an over 100 hp skid steer again. Gehl backed their machine down under 100. The EPA issues have ended the run over 100 hp. The issues I think with the Bobcat is their engine selection. It does not have much size to it, does not create much torque. The hp ratings are only part of the story. I am expecting that the engine in the Bobcat skid steer will change. The Kubota is weak, not saying that it is not reliable (although my personal experience has not been positive) they seem to run for the most part, they just don't creat a lot of torque.

Traditionally BC does not blow you away with their specs, a lot like CAT in that respect. The spec to look at in the 330 would be its torque rating and the rpm that it makes it at. Even though the hp rating is close the torque rating may not be (I don't know if it is or not first hand), The ability to turn that hyd pump and its effieciency is what will put power to the ground and in the attachment, that is torque. I have played this example before but the Torque rating in the 300 is just over 200 foot pounds, the 465 is 265, but hp wise there is not that much difference, certainly not enough to make you think there would be 60 plus foot pound difference in the torque rating. Perhaps it is the same between the 300 and 330.

If I may offer an opinion on the 300. It would have made a nice 250. The 300 is in my opinion a stretched 250. Bobcat released the 330 knowing that the 300 is weak when compared to others in the 3K ROC and over category, and I think that the 330 was designed to compete more favorably that means a better torque rating. They certainly would not accomplish that with a similiar torque rating and only a 4 hp increase.

cat2
12-16-2007, 12:43 PM
yeah bobcat needs to do something great and fast. Anyone on here know how to turn the injector pump up to get a little more power:confused:

YellowDogSVC
12-16-2007, 12:44 PM
That's where CAT has Bobcat beat, the A/C system is separate, only a small compressor is belt driven off the engine, I can't even tell if my A/C is on in my cab, the engine doesn't even idle down when you hit the switch by mistake, so you'll save the 5 hp in a Cat.

I think the bobcat just has a small belt driven compressor too. I watch the RPM's drop when AC is on. I did spend a lot of time with this new machine sealing cracks with silicone and the cab is now sealed pretty good until you open the door. The filter, though, is the true test. New filter was brown by the end of the day so I am still sucking in dust somewhere though I felt cleaner than I had for the first 275 hrs I ran the grinder.

cat2
12-16-2007, 12:46 PM
It makes know sence to have a s-150 s-160 s-175 and s-185. Why would you want the 150 and the 175 they don't have turbos. Even with the turbo they lack power. All of them are on the same frame and the same motor just the 160 and 185 have turbos.

bobcat_ron
12-16-2007, 12:48 PM
I think the bobcat just has a small belt driven compressor too. I watch the RPM's drop when AC is on. I did spend a lot of time with this new machine sealing cracks with silicone and the cab is now sealed pretty good until you open the door. The filter, though, is the true test. New filter was brown by the end of the day so I am still sucking in dust somewhere though I felt cleaner than I had for the first 275 hrs I ran the grinder.

Yes, Bobcat uses a belt driven pump too, their's is larger, but the big difference is the cooling for the condensor, Bobcat's is on top of the already 2 small rads for the engine/hydraulic, Cat has a remote condensor rad behind the cab with 2 electric fans, vey little mechanical power is needed from the engine.

bobcat_ron
12-16-2007, 12:50 PM
It makes know sence to have a s-150 s-160 s-175 and s-185. Why would you want the 150 and the 175 they don't have turbos. Even with the turbo they lack power. All of them are on the same frame and the same motor just the 160 and 185 have turbos.

100 pound counter weights under the engine compartments, same as the 300 pound 250/300/330 counter weights.

cat2
12-16-2007, 12:53 PM
All bobcat does is add weight to the same frame and give them 4hp more and put a new sticker on. And say they have a NEW machine

Fieldman12
12-16-2007, 01:01 PM
YellowdogSVC, I have seen the high prices on Bobcat stuff. In that size machine those motors are probably turned up enough as it is. Turning it up anymore may reduce the life of the motor. The real cure would be to switch to a bigger cubic inch motor that can stand the more hp in my opinion. Is the Kubota in it a three cylinder or 4 cylinder motor? In my opinion the more cylinders the better or at least that is my experience.

bobcat_ron
12-16-2007, 01:04 PM
All bobcat does is add weight to the same frame and give them 4hp more and put a new sticker on. And say they have a NEW machine




Yup, ain't that the expensive cheap truth.

Cat rules.

YellowDogSVC
12-16-2007, 01:06 PM
YellowdogSVC, I have seen the high prices on Bobcat stuff. In that size machine those motors are probably turned up enough as it is. Turning it up anymore may reduce the life of the motor. The real cure would be to switch to a bigger cubic inch motor that can stand the more hp in my opinion. Is the Kubota in it a three cylinder or 4 cylinder motor? In my opinion the more cylinders the better or at least that is my experience.

4 cylinder, 202 cu in. CAT has the same with 201 cu in but produces 90 sae net. If they are using the same sae standard, how does the same size motor produce more net hp? We are talking about a 12.3 hp swing here form 90 net to 77.7 net. That's a big deal in my book especially when my bobcat is heavier and rated to lift less.

cat2
12-16-2007, 01:28 PM
4 cylinder, 202 cu in. CAT has the same with 201 cu in but produces 90 sae net. If they are using the same sae standard, how does the same size motor produce more net hp? We are talking about a 12.3 hp swing here form 90 net to 77.7 net. That's a big deal in my book especially when my bobcat is heavier and rated to lift less.

how does Cat get more power? i have no idea. they must do something with the injector pump? but that wouldn't give them that much more power i don't think.:confused:

Fieldman12
12-16-2007, 01:51 PM
Well, air flow does not give you much but there could be some type of added gain to the Cat on air filter design. It's probably maxed out on being turned up (Cat). As for the Bobcat who knows. The block design could have some effect on it. Maybe the block in the Cat (Perkins possible??) could be heavier built. I think some times the manufactures on purpose make something with just a little less hp or what ever so they have an excuse in a year to come out with a new series. You know I know your thinking about another machine with more hp such as another Bobcat. I just think it would be sad to trade for a new machine with just a few more ponies if you take a big hit on resale. I mean don't get me wrong you have a legit reason to need the more hp and I fully agree. It would just make me mad if I had to pay a bunch more money just to get the few added hp with no other gains other than a new machine. I would talk to Bobcat about getting it turned up and ask them if I do this how much will it degrade the life if any on the motor. That small of a motor I'm betting some life will be lost. Another would be about voiding the warranty. I would not have them do it unless they cover it. Who knows if you tell them it is a dog and you may end up switching to a Cat, Case or Deere they may do something. Sounds like you give them lots of business. Maybe they would give you a sweat deal on a new Bobcat but I would make darn sure it will do it what you want.

Construct'O
12-16-2007, 02:35 PM
4 cylinder, 202 cu in. CAT has the same with 201 cu in but produces 90 sae net. If they are using the same sae standard, how does the same size motor produce more net hp? We are talking about a 12.3 hp swing here form 90 net to 77.7 net. That's a big deal in my book especially when my bobcat is heavier and rated to lift less.

What is the top RPM of your engine???? That is one way.If yours is only running 2300 rpm and the Cat is running 2750 rpm just example,which i don't know someone else will have to post that figure for us.

My machine is suppose to be 2800 as in the spec sheet,but it is running actually 2950.Which i don't use hardly ever.I used another machine just like mine and it was running 2950 also.So they have them bumped up over spec i would say.

My machine is CTL 5 cyclinder(186 cu. in.)gross horsepower 82 hp ,net 76 hp.But in the skids same engine it is rated 91 and 85.Torque rise is 47% in skid and 31% in CTL .

With that said my machine tho smaller cu. in. and less hp,has more then enough power what i have been doing with it.Can't respond for you as to running mower.Mine does have high flow and i have a high flow trencher,but have yet to use it on the machine.

Difference then others is 1 more cyclinder,and higher rpm.The engine is different in that each cyclinder has an individual fuel pump and injectors.Mounted in the head.It doesn't have inline injector pump mounted along side of engine like most machine.

Cat with their new Acert dozer engine they have gone to 4 valve head,so guessing they also have duel overhead cams.Less cubic inches more power and less fuel usage.

So there is ways to increase hp with less cubic inch engines.:usflag:

Increase fuel and rpm are the way to more horsepower.Turbo ,but you already have that.Some engine also have aftercoolers,also.

Some of you other guys post your machine,and rpm's please,also add hp.

ksss
12-16-2007, 03:04 PM
CASE 465: 88 gross @ 2300 rpm
82 net @ 2300 rpm
263 foot/pounds of torque @ 1400
274 Cubic inches
Turbo charged

The 440 is the same except one more gross hp but same net (don't ask me why).

YellowDogSVC
12-16-2007, 03:13 PM
CASE 465: 88 gross @ 2300 rpm
82 net @ 2300 rpm
263 foot/pounds of torque @ 1400
274 Cubic inches
Turbo charged

The 440 is the same except one more gross hp but same net (don't ask me why).

I think they may be playing with numbers like the other manufacturers

Construct'O
12-16-2007, 04:43 PM
CASE 465: 88 gross @ 2300 rpm
82 net @ 2300 rpm
263 foot/pounds of torque @ 1400
274 Cubic inches
Turbo charged

The 440 is the same except one more gross hp but same net (don't ask me why).

I have been check the comparsion of machine on the Case website.

I see why the 440CTL is probably selling good.For the size,power and weight they have to be goers.Same engine as the 450CTL with a little less torque,but not much.

What's the price difference between them and the 450CTL? Could you save yourself 10k?

I did notice that it also has bigger fuel tank and hyd. system then the 450 even.Boost in the hyd. pressure not much ,but some.3050 compared to 3000 psi

One thing i really notice was the Tk has almost 2 1/2 times more hydraulic oil in their systems like 16.5 to 6.5.They beleive in oil reserve.Which i would think would be good,especially if you blow a hose.

Better get it shut down fast.On high flow you would have only seconds i would think.Never really compared that.Check things out you can always learn something new.

New Holland 190 is same engine as Case ,but without the turbo,what gives there.They do have a 195 now right ,so maybe it has the turbo.Just didn't have it in the comparsion chart.

Case 440 CTL looks like a winner to me on paper for it's size!!!!!!!! You could save yourself some money in price difference and still do almost everything the big boys are doing.

How much weight can you add to it???? I would need extra weight for what i'm doing. About a 2000 pounds light :usflag:

ksss
12-16-2007, 05:07 PM
The 440 CT has been a big seller here. They have an unbelievable amount of power. During the testing of that machine, it stole the show in the power department. You could not add any weight beyond a couple hundred pounds.

On the other side of the State, the 450 is the big seller. I don't know the price difference between the two. The 440 and 450 are excellent excavating skid steers/CTL. The tracked version of the 465 will soon release giving them a machine to compete in the heavy lift market.

getthenet
12-16-2007, 05:30 PM
I Am Running A Takeuchi T130 Right Now. No High Speed Attachments But Going Thru Serious Mud. It Has A High Low Electric Shift On The Sjc. I Really Like This For Loading The Bucket And Getting In Deep Mud. It Would Probably Work Pretty Good With A Mower Because You Could Downshift Going Up Hills And Keep Up Your Rpms. I Am Looking To Buy A T190 Or T300 Because Bobcat Has Such Great Service. I Broke A Hose At The End Of The Day On A Bobcat 331 Excavator And Called Them About It. Got There The Next Morning And It Was Ready To Go. Thats Hard To Beat!

Construct'O
12-16-2007, 05:45 PM
The 440 CT has been a big seller here. They have an unbelievable amount of power. During the testing of that machine, it stole the show in the power department. You could not add any weight beyond a couple hundred pounds.

On the other side of the State, the 450 is the big seller. I don't know the price difference between the two. The 440 and 450 are excellent excavating skid steers/CTL. The tracked version of the 465 will soon release giving them a machine to compete in the heavy lift market.

For others to know the 440CTL track width is 15.7 " and the machine clearence is 9",don't know if the 18" tracks are an option or not for those needing wider tracks.

What is the grid heater option???

I checked machinery trader and there was only 5 440CTL listed and 3 was in Italy???? The price is right up their compared to the 450 CTL.

Also checked the 445CTL out which was a vertical lift and non turbo,but weight wish in between the 440 and the 450.Hard to figure what their thinking with weight ,power(non turbo) and lifts.

I would think they would want turbo on the 445CTL also.

Well enough for today.I need a rest.:walking:

Good luck for those searching for a new (brand)machine before the end of the year.Better get to doing your research,time is running out!!!:usflag:

ksss
12-16-2007, 06:17 PM
The 445 CT is tailored for the lift and carry crowd.

Currently the 435 and 445 are not turboed and I never understood why. I have been told that this has been corrected. It needed to be. The 445 and the 445CT will be turboed and have the old 85XT loader arms again. The grid heater acts like a glow plug. The grid heater is similiar to the way a Cummins motor heats a grid and the air is pulled through it during the intake stroke thus heating the combustion chamber for cold weather starting.

Fieldman12
12-16-2007, 06:27 PM
Glad to hear they will have the old loader arms.

YellowDogSVC
12-16-2007, 06:36 PM
I Am Running A Takeuchi T130 Right Now. No High Speed Attachments But Going Thru Serious Mud. It Has A High Low Electric Shift On The Sjc. I Really Like This For Loading The Bucket And Getting In Deep Mud. It Would Probably Work Pretty Good With A Mower Because You Could Downshift Going Up Hills And Keep Up Your Rpms. I Am Looking To Buy A T190 Or T300 Because Bobcat Has Such Great Service. I Broke A Hose At The End Of The Day On A Bobcat 331 Excavator And Called Them About It. Got There The Next Morning And It Was Ready To Go. Thats Hard To Beat!

Bobcat parts and service have been very good to me. That's a dealer issue not so much the corporate which has given me some bad info along the way.

bobcatboy
12-17-2007, 12:25 AM
demoed a t320, the machine did not bog at all. I was in think mud and had a 80"
c&i bucket on the machine. Running the a/c turning digging and it did not strain the engine. I think alot of guys wont experience bogging uses with most of your new skidsteer loaders, is most of them have some sort of horsepower managemnet systems in them. I run a s250 k-series bobcat with a fecon shredder head with the a/c and she boggs but even when I load it hard It recovers pretty quick. Know I have sjc setup on my machine and I know they have power management

getthenet
12-17-2007, 12:48 AM
I Tested A 430 Excavator With Fasttrack On It. It Had An Option Of You Controling It When It Bogged Down Or The Computer Controling It. Fasttrack Will Still Take Some Getting Used To. My Next Skid Steer Will Be A Sjc For Sure. I Have Never Demoed A 320 Or 330 But The 300 Is Pretty Serious. My Friend Just Bought His 2nd 300 In The Past 2 Years. He Had Sjc And Traded It Back In For Standard. He Said It Slowed Him Down Some But Maybe Thats Because He Was Used To Standard To Start With. When He Bought The 300, He Tried The T330 First And Said He Could Not Tell A Big Enough Difference To Justify The Price Increase From The 300 To 330.

ksss
12-17-2007, 01:45 AM
The E/H system has a noticable delay in it that can become very irritating to production driven operators (and who isn't). That is likely the reason he switched back. I really think BC will release an updated version before long. They broke new ground by being the first to put E/H in a skid steer, it is time for an update. The system needs some refining as well as reliablity improvements. Especially with CATs E/H now on the market, I have not run it yet but I have yet to hear of anyone complain about a delay in it like the BC system. Other than the delay, I don't mind running BC's SJC.

getthenet
12-17-2007, 01:53 AM
Kaiser, Have You Tried The Takeuchi T130? I Dont Know What A Tb153fr Is. I Am Trying To Compare A T130 To A Bc T190. The T130 Is For Sale For About 35000 W/ 600 Hrs And A T190 New Is 45000. There Is No Support In 65 Miles For Takeuchi And Bobcat Is My Neighbor. I Use Them For Hardscaping Mainly To Lift Up To 4000#. Sometimes They Both Are Close To Being To Small, But Will Lift 4000# On Level Ground Fairly Easily. Any Input On These 2?

Scag48
12-17-2007, 02:12 AM
The TL130 will mop the floor with the T190, I can tell you that right now and I've never run one. I Have heard very, and I mean very, little complaints with Takeuchi CTL's.

ksss
12-17-2007, 10:46 AM
I am definitely not a T190 fan. That machine in my opinion is under powered too much feedback when had in the AHC configuration, the machine is loud, and the hydrualic noise is unacceptable to me. I recognize some may like them, I think there are much better examples of a CTL than the 190.

I have spent time on the TK loader and I like them. Like Scag says they are solid. They have their issues as well but most are not performance related they ride on steel so they are more noisey, vibrate and the cabs are big and I think that it creates a barrel effect when sitting in them concerning noise. The TK machines are really basic, you will not see any gee whiz stuff in the cab. The only issues I seen on this machine is when set up for ISO controls being able to equally control track travel seems impossible. When digging in hard soil one track will spin and the other will not. Others have mentioned it as well, must be a valving issue. It is not a deal breaker just kinda irratating.

Lifting 4K would seem a little much for either of these machines. I would be sure that this class of machine has enough ROC to do what you need.

The TK TB153FR is an 12K excavator.

I would take the TK over the Bobcat, but that is my opinion. If you do go with Bobcat I would demo a T250. I think that machine is much stronger than the T190.

Fieldman12
12-17-2007, 05:45 PM
I agree with others on the T190 versus the Takeuchi. The Takeuchi is a horse of a machine. It is a very reliable machine or at least the ones I have been around and the people I have talked to who own them. Only complaint I have is not may dealers around.

getthenet
12-17-2007, 05:49 PM
I Asked My Bobcat Dealer And He Said There Was No Comparison. But For Some Reason There Is Not A Bobcat Available To Rent To Put Them Side By Side On This Job In The Mud. You Cant Tell The Difference In Something Until You Run Them One Right After Another.

getthenet
12-17-2007, 05:58 PM
T130 Earning Its Keep. As Much As I Like My New Holland, We Could Not Have Done This Job W/o The T130

Fieldman12
12-17-2007, 05:59 PM
Takeuchi will eat the Bobcat for breakfast.

bobcat_ron
12-17-2007, 06:37 PM
Ewww, Bobcat poop.


Now that's the stuff I like to hear though, Takeuchi was in my top of the list but it wasn't a smooth rider.

Construct'O
12-17-2007, 06:43 PM
T130 Earning Its Keep. As Much As I Like My New Holland, We Could Not Have Done This Job W/o The T130

What are you building there? I know it's a wall,does it have a purpose or is it just for looks?

Looks like a lot of crushed rock,stone,material setting around.

You still working on it?

As far as machine goes you have to decide on that one.Nice to have dealer close,but if wrong machine still doesn't do you that much good.

Dig around on here there several post on here about the Bobcat and TK,more on the TK140 size.Sounds like that would be more the size you need then the TK130.Good luck.:usflag:

goatboy67
12-17-2007, 07:11 PM
I just rented a low hour T190 because my Case 60XT was useless in the mud. I realize the case is radial lift and has 100lbs less ROC but there is no comparison in power. The T190 was an absolute pig with little breakout and curling power. The controls will wear on you by the end of a day. I had to clear mud from areas with the BC to get the Case in and loosen up a pile of broken crete. I guess the moral of the story is don't buy a T190...Though they do have a bunch of lights, buttons, and lcd displays.

ksss
12-17-2007, 08:10 PM
I will take a couple more kicks at the 190. If I were a salesman for nearly any brand I would go after these owners because it would be an easy conquest. I found the same as above. Running the AHC (advanced hand controls, Yea right) was very fatiguing. The machine needs servos, well it needs more that than but it would be a start. It is well described as a pig. BobcatRon tell us why you first purchased one? I am not trying to be a wise guy I am really curious what was attractive about the machine? The larger BC are more competetive I think but this model ranks right there with the 257B.

bobcat_ron
12-17-2007, 08:26 PM
I will take a couple more kicks at the 190. If I were a salesman for nearly any brand I would go after these owners because it would be an easy conquest. I found the same as above. Running the AHC (advanced hand controls, Yea right) was very fatiguing. The machine needs servos, well it needs more that than but it would be a start. It is well described as a pig. BobcatRon tell us why you first purchased one? I am not trying to be a wise guy I am really curious what was attractive about the machine? The larger BC are more competetive I think but this model ranks right there with the 257B.

I bought my T190 back in 2003 when there was no other CTL's in the 66" width category other than Cat, Bobcat and ASV, ASV/Cat I was still leary about with the undercarriages and being new to the CTL world I didn't want to find out why I was leary about them, Takeuchi was on top of the list but the trade in value on my 753 was too low to use as the required 10% down payment, so Bobcat it was and I have regretted it since. I payed over $6500 in hydraulic repair costs due to the way Bobcat chose to route the hoses and eventually I had to pop the cab up every weekend just to make sure I wasn't going to loose my hydraulic oil again.

I never needed a bulldozer of a CTL, just something that would get the job done and that's why I am so happy with the quality and performance of the 247, I still wake up and look at it through the living room windows before I eat my morning oatmeal, kinda like a kid on Christmas morning.

I don't miss much from the T190, maybe a few little things like the hydraulic port bulk head on the loader with the built in back pressure relief, but I sure as hell don't miss the excessive engine/hydraulic noise, the hard vibrations, the poorly sealed cab and those rowing oars, I find myself driving past construction sites that have Bobcat SSL/CTL's and I start yelling "buy a CAT!!!"

The reason I didn't go with the 257 is due to the ASV undercarriage is the same as the 247, the added weight of the 257 and the extra carrying ROC would wear that undercarriage out faster, and I wanted radius path, not vertical path.

Fieldman12
12-17-2007, 09:10 PM
Believe it or not the T190 is probably the most popular Bobcat CTL around these parts and I still ask myself why. I have a buddy that has one. One of my other buddies that was in business with him for a while said they was not that impressed with it. He said the Deere 322 CTL was a all around better machine. Around here mid-sized skid steers seem to be allot more popular than the really small ones or really big ones. The large ones are getting more and more popular though.

SiteSolutions
12-17-2007, 10:14 PM
I don't miss much from the T190, maybe a few little things like the hydraulic port bulk head on the loader with the built in back pressure relief,

Does Cat not have those? I was working on a site with a guy who had a beat up New Holland skid steer, and he was trying to unhook his hoses... I tried to help him, we got out pipe wrenches and tried all sorts of things to let the pressure off the lines so he could unhook. What a nightmare. I thought those pressure relieving hookups were industry standard by now.;)

I was thinking of going to a Cat or JD next time around but to me, those relief valves are like headlights on a car; wouldn't think of having one without them.

getthenet
12-17-2007, 10:26 PM
We Are Building A Wall About 370' Long And 3' Tall. It Is More For Looks. There Is Another 280 Ln. Ft. Of Ripp Raff On The Other Bank. We Are Almost Finished If The Rain Would Just Hold Up Long Enough For Us To Lay Some Sod And Seed The Rest. Where We Put Seed We Will Use Winter Rye Grass Which Will Come Up Good In 3 Weeks . We Will Come Back In Spring To Till Up And Regrade For Other Permenant Seeds. Right Now Some Of The Mud Is Over 5' Deep. We Brought In A John Deere 650 Lgp (low Ground Pressure) To Spread Out The Mud Just To Let It Dry. There Is No Way We Can Drive On It Now Until It Dries Out. That Is Not Going To Happen This Year. The Customer Understands That And I Am Glad. Some People Don't Understand When Something Like This Happens. Of Course The Mud Came From Digging Out Around The Lake So He New Up Front It Would Be Very Muddy. We Should Finish This Wed Or Thurs. I Love This Type Of Work.

SiteSolutions
12-17-2007, 10:32 PM
We Are Building A Wall About 370' Long And 3' Tall. It Is More For Looks. There Is Another 280 Ln. Ft. Of Ripp Raff On The Other Bank. We Are Almost Finished If The Rain Would Just Hold Up Long Enough For Us To Lay Some Sod And Seed The Rest. Where We Put Seed We Will Use Winter Rye Grass Which Will Come Up Good In 3 Weeks . We Will Come Back In Spring To Till Up And Regrade For Other Permenant Seeds. Right Now Some Of The Mud Is Over 5' Deep. We Brought In A John Deere 650 Lgp (low Ground Pressure) To Spread Out The Mud Just To Let It Dry. There Is No Way We Can Drive On It Now Until It Dries Out. That Is Not Going To Happen This Year. The Customer Understands That And I Am Glad. Some People Don't Understand When Something Like This Happens. Of Course The Mud Came From Digging Out Around The Lake So He New Up Front It Would Be Very Muddy. We Should Finish This Wed Or Thurs. I Love This Type Of Work.

That is nice work if you can get it!

And looks like a job well done, too.

ksss
12-17-2007, 10:34 PM
They make flat face couplers that you can relieve the pressure in the aftermarket. However you don't need that. Prior to unhooking the hyd. lines you relieve the pressure. On the CASE machine prior to elec. over hyd. activation you simply rock the hyd. actuator with the engine off. If you have the elec. over hyd. you turn the machine off, turn to on but don't start, release park brake and activate the aux. hyd. switch back and forth. This drains the hyd. press. IF the NH guy could not relieve the pressure on his old machine than he did not know his machine very well,it is very simple. If you have a bonehead who does not relieve the pressure in the attachment prior to disconnecting that can be a problem, but usually you can get 1 hose on, if that is the case the above still works. If neither will go on the machine than you have to take the coupler off.

getthenet
12-17-2007, 10:34 PM
Thanks For That.

bobcat_ron
12-18-2007, 11:59 AM
Does Cat not have those? I was working on a site with a guy who had a beat up New Holland skid steer, and he was trying to unhook his hoses... I tried to help him, we got out pipe wrenches and tried all sorts of things to let the pressure off the lines so he could unhook. What a nightmare. I thought those pressure relieving hookups were industry standard by now.;)

I was thinking of going to a Cat or JD next time around but to me, those relief valves are like headlights on a car; wouldn't think of having one without them.

They have a switch inside the cab on the upper left side that you push when the ignition key is in the "on" position with the engine turned off, I never use that switch, I just move the proportional hydraulics a little bit to relieve the back pressure.
I have been thinking of putting the Bobcat system on, but it would be an awful expensive mod to do and some serious threading and adapters would need to be made up just for some little more convenience.

Fieldman12
12-18-2007, 05:21 PM
Before I read ksss response I new this was the issue with the New Holland skid steer. We always rock the hydraulic lever before unhooking any construction or farm equipment hydraulic attachments. On a Deere you turn the key to On with (engine off) and move the switch that deactivates the parking brake and hydraulic lock to the middle position. The middle position leaves the parking brake on but allows movement of hydraulics for the booms and attachments. Rock your lever on the handle and pressure should be released. :) Im sure it is probably similar on the New Holland skid steers.

mrsops
12-18-2007, 09:00 PM
i own a bobcat s330 in my opinion the machine is an animal. more lift capacity at 3300 little more hp and you get 2 more inches when loading trucks because of the 14"" tires why would you go for the 300 when you can have the bad ass s330. in newyork here where im from we dont know what a new holland or asv are where all bobcat guys best machine out

getthenet
12-18-2007, 09:07 PM
I Have Never See A 330 Running Around Here. Only 300s. I Know A 300 Sounds Like Its Really Trying Hard When You Turn. It Sounds Like The Hydrolics Are Screaming. The Takeuchi Turns So Smooth And Is Very Sensitive. T130 Just Seems To Move Easier. Even Though The Bobcat Sounds Loud, It Has Plenty Of Power Though.

mrsops
12-18-2007, 09:12 PM
my s330 is the smoothest machine i have ever been in moves great turns great. the k series is just a real quiet machine. i have about 6 skid steers all bobcat

YellowDogSVC
12-18-2007, 09:16 PM
i own a bobcat s330 in my opinion the machine is an animal. more lift capacity at 3300 little more hp and you get 2 more inches when loading trucks because of the 14"" tires why would you go for the 300 when you can have the bad ass s330. in newyork here where im from we dont know what a new holland or asv are where all bobcat guys best machine out

have you run an s300 to compare to the s330?

mrsops
12-18-2007, 09:19 PM
yeah i tested them both out like i said little bit more lift when loading the tandem trucks and its got more power i was able to move around a few big trees alot better with my s330 then i was the s300 i mean not a crazy big deal but put it this way would you rather a s175 that lifts 1750 or an s205 that lifts 2050 my opinion 300 pounds is 300 pounds and the s205 kicks ass

YellowDogSVC
12-18-2007, 09:25 PM
yeah i tested them both out like i said little bit more lift when loading the tandem trucks and its got more power i was able to move around a few big trees alot better with my s330 then i was the s300 i mean not a crazy big deal but put it this way would you rather a s175 that lifts 1750 or an s205 that lifts 2050 my opinion 300 pounds is 300 pounds and the s205 kicks ass


I'm on my 2nd s300k. I swear my s300 G, a 2005 model, had more power than my k series but who knows. I ran them side by side and it seemed so. I am very frustrated right now with my s300k. I use high flow all the time running an HM312 brush grinder. It just seems doggy (to use a phrase another guy came up with when comparing the s300 to the ASV RC100).

I just don't feel like I have enough hp to do all the things I want. I just switched from solid filled tires to air and I still feel like I am dragging butt. The machine runs fine and I really like it but it just doesn't have enough power. I am glad you chimed in on the s330. If it isn't a big, noticeable difference in power, then I don't think it would make much sense for me to upgrade. The lift difference is a counterweight issue since the frame is the same. The motor power, on paper, doesn't seem to be that big of a difference. In fact, net power seems less of difference than s300 vs. s250 but that 30 cu. in. jump in motor size makes me wonder. I have asked Bobcat for some clarification but doubt I will hear from them.
I was looking at a T320 or s330 for a hp upgrade only but if their isn't that big a difference, maybe I am wasting my time?

mrsops
12-18-2007, 09:29 PM
Well If You Want To Spend 60,000 On The T320 Go For It That Machine Is A Beast!!! 92 Hp. 85hp On The S330 Does The Trick For Me Its A Better Machine Then The S300 Its Got That Little More Power That Everyone Is Asking For. I Mean Supposly It Is The 2nd Strongest Skid Steer Out Next To The Gehl That Lifts 3800

YellowDogSVC
12-18-2007, 09:40 PM
I wonder how much of that hp upgrades goes towards pushing the extra weight of the 330. I am looking for a machine in the s300's class with just a tad extra power to give me that adrenaline shot for recovery time on my high flow and for powering out of ruts.
My s300 just feels doggy...hate to keep using that term but it's how I feel and it's frustrating as heck. You guys know what I am talking about. You have to work harder to move the machine and if you just had a bit more energy, you could do it faster. Production is so important to me. I don't like to waste any time on site or I can't compete with the bigger machines.

mrsops
12-19-2007, 08:19 PM
Demo A S330 Yellow