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Chris J
12-17-2007, 09:45 PM
Before I submit my proposal on this lighting job, I thought I should first solicit the ideas of my fellow lighting contractors.
I have a large project to design for a developer. Included in this proposal is a 200' bridge that spans a marsh. There are concrete borders on both sides of the lanes that are about 2.5' tall. The developer took it upon himself to have junction boxes installed every 25' along the bridge on both sides because he wants some very low light to define the drive way onto this island. Keep in mind that these lights will be surface mounted, and they will be only about 18" off the ground. He did provide conduit between j-boxes, but it is only 1/2" Sched.40 grey electrical conduit.
Here's my dilemma:
1.) What fixture can you recommend that will cover the j-box?
2.) Being that the conduit is only 1/2", what kind of wiring method would you use? There are 9 lights, spaced 25' apart on both sides. 200' from the first fixture to the last.

Looking forward to some great responses!

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-17-2007, 09:49 PM
Chris... Man you should know better by now!

PHOTOS PLEASE!

Nice long shot from either end and then some close ups of the posts/columns on the bridge.

Have a great day.

Chris J
12-17-2007, 09:52 PM
Oh! Sorry. I forgot to mention that I will be trying to post photos tomorrow. I've been trying to wait until I got the photos, but I couldn't stand not asking the q. BTW, there are no post or columns. It is just a straight concrete border along the sides of the bridge; much like the barriers that you see along the road during construction (just a little shorter and prettier).

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-17-2007, 09:58 PM
Okay... I will wait to see the photos, but I have an idea for you that might just look really spectacular, and be completely glare free.

Would you prefer using raw brass or powder coated aluminum? (There would be a BIG cost difference.)

More after I see the photos.

pete scalia
12-17-2007, 09:58 PM
Before I submit my proposal on this lighting job, I thought I should first solicit the ideas of my fellow lighting contractors.
I have a large project to design for a developer. Included in this proposal is a 200' bridge that spans a marsh. There are concrete borders on both sides of the lanes that are about 2.5' tall. The developer took it upon himself to have junction boxes installed every 25' along the bridge on both sides because he wants some very low light to define the drive way onto this island. Keep in mind that these lights will be surface mounted, and they will be only about 18" off the ground. He did provide conduit between j-boxes, but it is only 1/2" Sched.40 grey electrical conduit.
Here's my dilemma:
1.) What fixture can you recommend that will cover the j-box?
2.) Being that the conduit is only 1/2", what kind of wiring method would you use? There are 9 lights, spaced 25' apart on both sides. 200' from the first fixture to the last.

Looking forward to some great responses!

10 gauge stranded THHN pulled through the 1/2" PVC
I'm assuming 4 on 1 side 5 on the other in a triangular spacing formation. 4 home runs- 3 fixtures per homerun with homerun going to "middle" fixture for 2 sets of 3 lights. 1 fixture will have it's own homerun and the other two will take the 4th homerun.
No prob.

the only flush wall mount fixture that comes to mind immediately that is large enough to cover the box is a bell shaped jumbo fixture that is made by I think SPJ.

Chris J
12-17-2007, 10:03 PM
9 lights on each side with only 1/2 inch electrical conduit. I don't think I can get more than one 10/2 wire down this 200' span, and I certainly don't have room for a "T" configuration (I don't think, but I've never tried).

Chris J
12-17-2007, 10:05 PM
Okay... I will wait to see the photos, but I have an idea for you that might just look really spectacular, and be completely glare free.

Would you prefer using raw brass or powder coated aluminum? (There would be a BIG cost difference.)

More after I see the photos.

Have to use brass because it is ocean front.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-17-2007, 10:08 PM
LOL The Difinitive answer has been provided to you Chris! No need for any more input I suppose.

Unfortunately that difinitive answer did not include any fixtures, nor did it take into account any loading, ambient light levels, positioning of fixtures, required or expected light levels of the finished product, use of the bridge, etc etc.

I dont know about you, but I have never been able to properly design a lighting system without actually seeing the location of the project! Pete must be just awesome and quite the magician.

Have a great day.

pete scalia
12-17-2007, 10:08 PM
9 lights on each side with only 1/2 inch electrical conduit. I don't think I can get more than one 10/2 wire down this 200' span, and I certainly don't have room for a "T" configuration (I don't think, but I've never tried).

I shouldn't bother after your derogatory response in another post but.
3 home runs on both sides. 3 lights per homerun with the homerun to the "middle" fixture. A T wiring config. yes certain conduits closest to the trans will have 6 stranded 10 gauge conductors (1 black and 1 white per circuit) A good electrician will have no problem pulling 6 #10's through a 1/2" straight PVC conduit 25'. Just use some lube or motion lotion or pay an electrician to pull them for you.

Chris J
12-17-2007, 10:09 PM
Thanks for the quick response James. I'll try to get those photos tomorrow.

ccfree
12-17-2007, 11:08 PM
Before I submit my proposal on this lighting job, I thought I should first solicit the ideas of my fellow lighting contractors.
I have a large project to design for a developer. Included in this proposal is a 200' bridge that spans a marsh. There are concrete borders on both sides of the lanes that are about 2.5' tall. The developer took it upon himself to have junction boxes installed every 25' along the bridge on both sides because he wants some very low light to define the drive way onto this island. Keep in mind that these lights will be surface mounted, and they will be only about 18" off the ground. He did provide conduit between j-boxes, but it is only 1/2" Sched.40 grey electrical conduit.
Here's my dilemma:
1.) What fixture can you recommend that will cover the j-box?
2.) Being that the conduit is only 1/2", what kind of wiring method would you use? There are 9 lights, spaced 25' apart on both sides. 200' from the first fixture to the last.

Looking forward to some great responses!


Don't know about fixture selection without seeing a picture, but do have a suggestion on the type of wire to use. How about a 3 conductor romex? 10 gauge with 3 wires and a ground making four wires so you only have to pull once? Just a thought

Lite4
12-17-2007, 11:14 PM
Why not just go with line voltage fixtures for that section? It would be a lot easier pulling one strand of romex through and not having to worry about VD with limited access. Just a thought. Sometimes the best choice is not always a 12 volt fixture.

Chris J
12-17-2007, 11:19 PM
I'm still considering line voltage for the install, but this is exactly why I want everyone's input. Nothing has yet to be ruled out.
Please tell me your Line v fixture selection when you have seen the pic.

NightScenes
12-17-2007, 11:20 PM
I'll wait for the pics.

Lite4
12-17-2007, 11:23 PM
Look forward to seeing them Chris.

pete scalia
12-17-2007, 11:24 PM
Don't know about fixture selection without seeing a picture, but do have a suggestion on the type of wire to use. How about a 3 conductor romex? 10 gauge with 3 wires and a ground making four wires so you only have to pull once? Just a thought

Romex inside of conduit is a code violation

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-17-2007, 11:24 PM
Why not just go with line voltage fixtures for that section? It would be a lot easier pulling one strand of romex through and not having to worry about VD with limited access. Just a thought. Sometimes the best choice is not always a 12 volt fixture.

Drats, you guys are getting ahead of me here...

I was going to suggest line voltage wiring to each junction box with a Lightech-75w electronic transformer inside each J-box to power up a LV fixture...

nah, I will stop and wait for the photos...

later.

Chris J
12-17-2007, 11:33 PM
Pics are coming, but I don't think I'm going to have very much room in these J-boxes for much more than a splice connection. In fact, as I will show you with the pics, some of the J-boxes have been squished together by the concrete pour which may distort the screw locations.....Anyway, pics still to come.

JoeyD
12-18-2007, 04:20 PM
Wheres the Pics....James is on to something, before I got to his post the same thought was in my head. Line voltage pulled thru and then utilize our line voltage conversion kit to transform to 12v and mount our Quasar 2 or an Orion sconce light. Not sure of the size of the J Box. If it is say a 4x4 box then maybe you could use a larger Orion Sconce which you can order in 120v and just be done with the low voltage conversion.

To run a T is still going to require you to fit more than one wire through your conduit which sounds like it would be hard to do if running 10 Guage. If you are using units that go beyond 15v then you could still run 12guage and have no problem distributing voltage to the first connection. How you wire it and distribute it from there is up to you, not sure of the T method rules but I dont think you want inconsistant voltage here. Seems like you could still do a Hub system but your conduit is the real deal breaker here.

Lets see the pics.

Chris J
12-19-2007, 09:02 PM
Here's the photos. As you can see by the picture of the j-boxes, the contractors didn't do such a great job of keeping them clean. This is going to take an enormous amount of time to chisel out all of the concrete as most of them have concrete in the ends of the conduit (don't know how I'm gonna do that either).
Anyway, there are a total of 27 j-boxes. 9 down each side of the road, and 9 along that walkway (all spaced 25' apart) There is only power available from one end. Again, I need a fixture that will cover these holes, and I need recommendations on wiring methods. There is not enough room in these 1/2" conduits for multiple runs of 10 guage wire (nor 12 guage). I'm thinking that my only solution is to do it in line voltage, but I'll need suggestions on fixtures in line voltage as well.
Just for reference, the last picture is the view when you come across the bridge and enter the front of the club house. All those bags are pavers which are being laid very soon.
Thanks everybody!

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-19-2007, 09:57 PM
Chris:

Wow, I hope they have a serious budget.

I don't have nearly enough time to type out all of my ideas for this bridge on here Chris, but I do have some pretty novel ideas you might want to tap into. So, please call me Tomorrow (705-801-7232 is my cell)

I have one idea that could make use of all the j-boxes and I have another idea that would see you abandoning the j-boxes all together! There is another way.

Cant get into it now as my bride is calling....

Chris J
12-20-2007, 07:10 AM
One more view. This is the parking lot, which will also be illuminated (no advice needed on this). At the far end of the parking area, there is a large deck overlooking the marsh. To the left, there is a long dock leading to the marina. I wanted to get a few more pics, but the camera batteries died. Yes, very large project and a serious budget.

Pro-Scapes
12-20-2007, 08:53 AM
due to your limited conduit size I would have to agree linevoltage would be the way to go especially since you probably have some debris in the conduits from the looks of thoes boxes

http://kimlighting.com/kl-1329.pdf

What about round wall forms with either exposed or flat lenses in them ?

The hooded lenses might be great for casting light out onto that walkway.

You can get them in about any configuration you can imagine from metal halide to sodium to compact floro.

Really a shame you were not invited when the bridge was being built to specify your design and place your conduits and boxes acordingly. Looks like an excellent project.
Good luck.

NightScenes
12-20-2007, 10:19 AM
Man Chris, you got shafted on this one my friend. The contractors that set those boxes just stuck the conduit into them and didn't even use connectors (which is against code). Your going to play hell just cutting them off inside the boxes. Use string for this, bring the string around the back side and use it as a saw. It will cut right through that conduit.

I would go with line voltage on this puppy, I would bet that the conduit has debris in it which will really limit the wires that you will be able to pull. You can use the 120/12 adapters in the boxes if you choose to use low voltage fixtures though.

The sconce lights that Joey is talking about will easily cover those boxes but they may end up being too close the the ground once those pavers are set. I'll look at some of my catalogs to see if there are any other options here.

Good luck to you on this one!!

JoeyD
12-20-2007, 10:33 AM
Orion 4's should work fine but your main issue will be deciding how to wire it. I agree with Paul and think you should pull 120v then if you are going to use a LV fixture you just have to wire in a 75w step down TF in the box. My 120v Orions are to big for this wall I think.

nate mullen
12-20-2007, 12:24 PM
Chris this is a time you can use a 24 volt lighting system.............now you can pull 14/2 thhn, this will in able you to pull enough wire through the conduite. I can give you a drawing and fax back if you like. Orion 9 would be a nice fixture on the walls. You then could anchor the begnining and end with an endever fixture. this will help soften the surrounding area.

Pro-Scapes
12-20-2007, 03:55 PM
I like nates endevor idea at each end but im not crazy about orions on the walkway. Thats a short wall and they probably wont have enough space to spread out. You need something with bigger photo metrics on that walkway. Less on the roadway just to serve as decorative

Keep in mind they will also be shining up as well which may cause glare for people using the walkway due to the low hieght of the wall. If the wall and j boxes were taller the orions would be the logical choice.This is why I suggested the kims. Nice photometrics and an array of lamp choices. Critical on your 25 ft spacing.

Obviously on the road there it will be more decorative than useful anyways With all the fixtures being in a row having balanced voltage will be critical.

Man what you could of done to this bridge had you been given the chance to prewire it!

JoeyD
12-20-2007, 04:20 PM
BTW I called Nate to tell him he is crazy about Orion 9's he's such a rookie sometimes. He meant Orion 6 or 4. Much smaller. Orion 4's would work I think perfectly?

JoeyD
12-20-2007, 04:35 PM
I searched through my application photo archives and these are the best photos I can find to show you the Orion 4 and 6

This photo shows the Orion 4's on a staircase. They 1 20w Xelogen in them, you could drop wattage to 10w.
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/Steps.jpg

This picture shows the orion 6 in the day. You can tell that they are really not all that big.
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/ApplicationShotsORIONSERIES021.jpg

And then here are the Orion 6's lit up, these are a little hot and could be dropped to 10w as well.
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/ApplicationShotsORIONSERIES003.jpg

Billy's KIM lights may be a better option.

Pro-Scapes
12-20-2007, 04:37 PM
how high are thoes boxes ? 12-16 inches ? Still orions offer the uplight and there is not much to uplight there. Need a light that throws light out as well as side to side. Linevoltage and perhaps dimable controls all the way.

Is there a theme to this property chris ? perhaps we can come up with a fixture that echos that theme ?

JoeyD
12-20-2007, 04:39 PM
The uplightmay pick up some of the posts and or rope. Might look cool, but i agree with Billy on the spread, Orions may not give you to much width.

Pro-Scapes
12-20-2007, 04:48 PM
you guys need to offer a cap for the tops of thoes.... they look nice on the stairs but the glare coming up kills the effect.

I love the fixture dont get me wrong. Looks awsome mounted on walls or to replace glare bomb porch lights.

JoeyD
12-20-2007, 05:00 PM
I didnt mean to turn chris's post into an Orion post. I just wanted to be thorough in giving the info on it.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-20-2007, 05:03 PM
I didnt mean to turn chris's post into an Orion post. I just wanted to be thorough in giving the info on it.

Ya Ya, Sure, Sure.... Just more blatant Unique self promotion and "pop"aganda :laugh:

You would think these guys were sponsors here or something.

JoeyD
12-20-2007, 05:08 PM
Sponsors? We practiclly own this site!!! j/k It is a luxury to show you guys the pictures when discussing the products!

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-20-2007, 05:31 PM
I talked to Chris on the phone today...

To bring you all up to date, (the short version)

I recommended a line voltage wiring solution, (if he can find an electrical contractor who would take on that mess of conduit and j-boxes) and Nightscaping Brass Turtles, wall mounted with the lens aimed down. These fixtures have a great optical spread lens and have a large enough body cavity that the Lightech LET-75 transformer can be installed inside the fixture, allowing for room in those 'switch box / j-boxes' for the wiring connections.

Or. Walk away from the road surface and simply light the pedestrian surface by mounting copper postliters on the wood rail structure.

Or. A combination of both techniques.

Or. Use that 2" hemp rope to hide a LV wire solution between the wood posts that sit atop the concrete wall. I have seen large rope like this that can be twisted against its bias and then the wire can be inserted into the center of the rope.. release it and the rope returns to original shape with the wire embedded. It may be a possibility and would be a lot more direct for wiring and probably less time consuming.

Lots of "outside the box" possibilities here.

Chris J
12-20-2007, 07:43 PM
due to your limited conduit size I would have to agree linevoltage would be the way to go especially since you probably have some debris in the conduits from the looks of thoes boxes

http://kimlighting.com/kl-1329.pdf

What about round wall forms with either exposed or flat lenses in them ?

The hooded lenses might be great for casting light out onto that walkway.

You can get them in about any configuration you can imagine from metal halide to sodium to compact floro.

Really a shame you were not invited when the bridge was being built to specify your design and place your conduits and boxes acordingly. Looks like an excellent project.
Good luck.

Your right Billy. It would have been nice if they would have thought about this ahead of time. The developers are expecting this place to be the "toast of the town" but they left a little to be desired in the way of planning for the illumination. Even the power distribution is now a problem as they didn't pre-plan for power through-out the property. Because there will be numerous lamp posts throughout the property, we are contemplating pulling receptacles out of the bases of some of these lamp posts to feed the transformers. They don't have a specific electrical contractor under contract for this yet, so I have no one to correspond with as it relates to my intentions. It's a big mess to say the least, and it makes me nervous to be involved.
As far as you Kim recommendation, do you have any specific fixture in mind for this app? There is really no specific theme, other than the fact that everything else I will be doing will be in some form of aged brass. It is a country club/marina, so maybe that could provide for a theme if available. The most important issue in my mind at this point is a quality fixture for this harsh environment, and one that will suit this difficult situation.
Thanks for everyone's help so far. Keep the ideas coming if you have anymore!

Pro-Scapes
12-21-2007, 12:33 AM
the kim wall forms in the round shape is what I was looking at with the half face. It would cast down and out but not up.

they do have dark bronze as a finish option. Keep in mind this is a silicone based aluminum fixture with a titanium zircon powdercoat and should hold up just fine. Other materials may be avalible or you may find a similar fixture in the material you want. The fixture has passed salt spray tests tho and Kim has always been top notch for us in the past.

James idea of hiding a wire inside the rope is inovative but is it plausible and would having a wire concealed in a material that is combustible conform to NEC regulations ? Its a great idea but I think it would be frowned upon by the inspectors. This is something you would need to consider before attempting that.

JoeyD
12-21-2007, 10:25 AM
Chris keep in mind Direct Bural transformers. And for the record last night Nate made it clear that his idea of the Orion 9 was for it to be installed horizontally to light up the wall from side to side. PACK THAT IN YOUR PIPE AND SMOKE IT BILLY!! NO GLARE NOW

LOL

I'm on a good one today folks!!! Its friday and Unique is haveing a PAAAAAAARRRRRTTYYYYY!!!

Pro-Scapes
12-21-2007, 10:03 PM
Chris keep in mind Direct Bural transformers. And for the record last night Nate made it clear that his idea of the Orion 9 was for it to be installed horizontally to light up the wall from side to side. PACK THAT IN YOUR PIPE AND SMOKE IT BILLY!! NO GLARE NOW

LOL

I'm on a good one today folks!!! Its friday and Unique is haveing a PAAAAAAARRRRRTTYYYYY!!!
I must have missed where nate said that because i looked back (maybe too quickly) and still missed that

Would that not glare in peoples faces more as they see the light from a distance when they traverse a path ? I like unique and think nate is a great designer but he needs to think outside the (unique) box this time. True the wall would look great but it wouldnt be too functional if the light didnt spill onto the pathway. Perhaps im wrong here but being that this is a commercial public/private space and not a residence you need to provide safer passage.

What have you decided Chris. Your the designer here and it will ultimatly be your choice.

pete scalia
12-21-2007, 10:07 PM
I must have missed where nate said that because i looked back (maybe too quickly) and still missed that

Would that not glare in peoples faces more as they see the light from a distance when they traverse a path ? I like unique and think nate is a great designer but he needs to think outside the (unique) box this time. True the wall would look great but it wouldnt be too functional if the light didnt spill onto the pathway. Perhaps im wrong here but being that this is a commercial public/private space and not a residence you need to provide safer passage.

What have you decided Chris. Your the designer here and it will ultimatly be your choice.

with those fixtures mounted sideways I would imagine you'd be looking right into the business end of the lamp and socket. Especially dangerous if you are driving over that bridge. But what do I know.

Pro-Scapes
12-22-2007, 09:54 AM
with those fixtures mounted sideways I would imagine you'd be looking right into the business end of the lamp and socket. Especially dangerous if you are driving over that bridge. But what do I know.

The young jedi can teach master yoda a few new tricks. Sorry Nate, Now if you had a deck light on steroids (8 incher) I could see going that route. Plus keep in mind you dont want anything that gets insanly hot... The arcitectual alluminum might be better since this is an exposed application plus you can choose a cooler lamp type.

Had this been a taller wall with a much higher mounting point the wall scones would of looked SAWEEEET

NiteTymeIlluminations
12-23-2007, 02:22 PM
Chris,

I would do a heat test on anything before you install it. Ask the mfr if they know how hot their fixture gets...they dont know, all they'll say is that is passed testing...woopee...I'd think twice about using brass unless you heat test it or you'll have a a lawyer of some over protective mom calling you 1 year down the road calling you to court for the 2nd degree burns on the kids hands...set up a demo for a weekend, run them 24/7 and see if they pass your kids hands test...I always keep my 4 year old in mind when designing a systems esp in public areas.

Pro-Scapes
12-23-2007, 03:28 PM
the fixtures I suggested are alluminum and I would consider kim to be as good as anything else out there. If you have ever handled or used one of thier fixture you will know what i mean.

I have never used compact flouro lamps before... do they run cooler ? They are avalible in the fixtures. Doug is head on tho. Need something that will not only hold up but will operate cool as well. Not only for the possibility of people touching it but to protect thoes plastic boxes from becoming brittle as they cook nightly.

NiteTymeIlluminations
12-24-2007, 10:06 AM
man I can't believe what I've been through this year but as of today's date I would recommend a CF bulb with a medium base socket, E26/27, with a 5 or 7watt 2600 kelvin lamp, in a good quality brass fixture, IF AND ONLY IF, you use 120volt. If you go low volt go aluminum because of the heat. Check the elements of the box and all hardware to ensure that you gdont have anything but stainless touching another kind of metal.

Chris J
12-24-2007, 11:29 AM
Wow guys, you've really got my head spinning on this one now. I agree about the heat issues, but this property is ocean front. I don't know if I can stomach the aluminum idea or not. My head is starting to hurt.......

Pro-Scapes
12-24-2007, 01:18 PM
If you go compact floro you wont need alum. Runs cooler so the heat build up wont turn it into a hand burning device for small childeren. If your awarded the contract may pay to consult with a leading lighting designer who has experience in line voltage. Dougs a kim dist... ask him to check and see if you can get thoes lights in brass or copper and compact floro we already know is an option. Or ... have nightscaping create the johnson lighter

nate mullen
12-25-2007, 10:00 AM
Is this a commerical job or on public space...............are you contracting this from the city or state? If the answer is yes on any of these then you must meet a certain foot candle level on the ground. if that is the case I would only use some type of a HID 120 volt light to insure even light thought out the road. Maybe you should do a photometric study.............

Chris J
12-25-2007, 07:14 PM
Is this a commerical job or on public space...............are you contracting this from the city or state? If the answer is yes on any of these then you must meet a certain foot candle level on the ground. if that is the case I would only use some type of a HID 120 volt light to insure even light thought out the road. Maybe you should do a photometric study.............

The job is on private property. It is a second phase to a well established gated community. This phase is the country club / marina, and the bridge is the entrance to the front of the club house area (see photos). There are actually three more bridges on this property that lead to this island, but that phase is a later project. I just need to accomplish this design first. Time is running out as I am putting together my estimates this week (whether it includes the bridge or not). If you can help, I would certainly appreciate it.
Thank you in advance.

Pro-Scapes
12-25-2007, 09:29 PM
even tho its a private property it will be used by the membership and their guests. The rules for FC may not apply but I would try to stick to em. Pedestrians will still need safe passage... especially after the adult beverages flow.

NiteTymeIlluminations
12-30-2007, 09:27 AM
Well what did you decide dude? I can't imagine needing MH or any other type of HID. The site lighting should be done. This is arch. type lighting I assume. Anyway, I'm been in and out of the country lately so I may have missed alot, but Chris, let us know what you decide.

On a side note...I have been in lighting since 1978...as my family owned lighting showrooms...I have repped Kichler, Dinico, etc...I owned my own distribution business for 10 years...I was bought out, worked for them, and now work for Sandals as their full time director of lighting and have paired up with someone we are bringing in for creative ideas...this guy is brilliant and i'm not sharing his name, sorry!!! The ideas he came up with on a few things like creative ways to better light beach parties without glare blew me away...there are guys and gals out there like that...

Don't think that bringing in someone makes you less of a person. I brought someone in that I didnt know because I know what the people I know know. It's the people you dont know that have ideas that we may not have...

please let us know what you decided on doing though

Pro-Scapes
12-30-2007, 09:40 AM
I agree hid or metal halide will be way to bright.
CF in a low watage might just work from what i been reading.

pete scalia
12-30-2007, 01:14 PM
Well what did you decide dude? I can't imagine needing MH or any other type of HID. The site lighting should be done. This is arch. type lighting I assume. Anyway, I'm been in and out of the country lately so I may have missed alot, but Chris, let us know what you decide.

On a side note...I have been in lighting since 1978...as my family owned lighting showrooms...I have repped Kichler, Dinico, etc...I owned my own distribution business for 10 years...I was bought out, worked for them, and now work for Sandals as their full time director of lighting and have paired up with someone we are bringing in for creative ideas...this guy is brilliant and i'm not sharing his name, sorry!!! The ideas he came up with on a few things like creative ways to better light beach parties without glare blew me away...there are guys and gals out there like that...

Don't think that bringing in someone makes you less of a person. I brought someone in that I didnt know because I know what the people I know know. It's the people you dont know that have ideas that we may not have...

please let us know what you decided on doing though

Got any photos of the lighting improvements you've made at Sandals?
Doing and LV there or all line?
Which LV manu's have you used if any?
Thanx

nate mullen
01-02-2008, 12:12 PM
The job is on private property. It is a second phase to a well established gated community. This phase is the country club / marina, and the bridge is the entrance to the front of the club house area (see photos). There are actually three more bridges on this property that lead to this island, but that phase is a later project. I just need to accomplish this design first. Time is running out as I am putting together my estimates this week (whether it includes the bridge or not). If you can help, I would certainly appreciate it.
Thank you in advance.

This is a Utility type lighting job..............Lots of light required.........I would use HID on exciting boxes or add poles on back side of wall, use can use exciting boxes and drill through wall for power (120 volts) the advantage of the poles is you can get the lamp of high and then maybe use a more decorative fixture . I would not over think this...................

Chris J
01-02-2008, 12:35 PM
What is an exciting box? What is it's purpose?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-02-2008, 04:57 PM
Well what did you decide dude? I can't imagine needing MH or any other type of HID. The site lighting should be done. This is arch. type lighting I assume. Anyway, I'm been in and out of the country lately so I may have missed alot, but Chris, let us know what you decide.

On a side note...I have been in lighting since 1978...as my family owned lighting showrooms...I have repped Kichler, Dinico, etc...I owned my own distribution business for 10 years...I was bought out, worked for them, and now work for Sandals as their full time director of lighting and have paired up with someone we are bringing in for creative ideas...this guy is brilliant and i'm not sharing his name, sorry!!! The ideas he came up with on a few things like creative ways to better light beach parties without glare blew me away...there are guys and gals out there like that...

Don't think that bringing in someone makes you less of a person. I brought someone in that I didnt know because I know what the people I know know. It's the people you dont know that have ideas that we may not have...

please let us know what you decided on doing though

Sounds like you are having some fun! I was at the Sandals Grande St. Lucian last year and thought of many ways they could drastically improve the property with great lighting. Most of the resorts I have visited in the Caribbean, (and in N. America for that matter) could use better outdoor lighting.

The guy you brought on board with the great ideas and experience... are his initials P. L. by any chance? If so, send me a PM as I would like to re-connect with him. This is an area that I have always 'dreamed' of entering and just need a bigger kick in my butt with a frozen boot to get moving on. I have the contacts, but the distance / international issue have always held me back.

Keep in touch.

irrig8r
01-02-2008, 08:51 PM
What is an exciting box? What is it's purpose?

i think he may have meant "existing". At least it reads better that way...

nate mullen
01-03-2008, 12:22 AM
What is an exciting box? What is it's purpose?

existing.......................sometimes my fingers can not spell

Chris J
01-03-2008, 08:40 AM
existing.......................sometimes my fingers can not spell

hehe. Thanks for the update. I was looking forward to getting my hands on some kind of box that was going to make me happy......:laugh:

Pro-Scapes
01-03-2008, 09:48 AM
i still think hid will be way to bright. order a hid and compact floro and light em up one night off a cord or generator out there and see. Kinda like a Line voltage demo. It really is too bad there are not taller posts out there.

JoeyD
01-03-2008, 09:48 AM
hehe. Thanks for the update. I was looking forward to getting my hands on some kind of box that was going to make me happy......:laugh:


I read way to deep into this statement........LOL BOX

Chris J
01-03-2008, 02:50 PM
I think your the only one who got the joke!

TPnTX
01-04-2008, 08:34 PM
reminds me of the blank in the box skit on SNL.

nate mullen
01-05-2008, 09:41 AM
HID does't mean to bright, HID means and equels better Lumens per watt with a more spread out light pattern alowing the light to intersec and provide a larger, cohisive,connecting light on the ground which elimnates the darknes between the fixtues which I think will be hard to get with low voltage incandesent. That's my intent here anyway..............Which is probly why a demo is the ticket............... The other fact with HID is you will not have a VD problem. Which more than likely you will with a 12 volt system. Which is why I brought up 24 volts before. So if you demo with 12 volts fixtures make sure you duplacate the wiring method you a forced to use. I can't tell you how many time I have seen this fundamental mistake. Demo with 12 volts but then get 8 volts to the lamp. Anyway here to good lighting

pete scalia
01-05-2008, 09:52 AM
HID does't mean to bright, HID means and equels better Lumens per watt with a more spread out light pattern alowing the light to intersec and provide a larger, cohisive,connecting light on the ground which elimnates the darknes between the fixtues which I think will be hard to get with low voltage incandesent. That's my intent here anyway..............Which is probly why a demo is the ticket............... The other fact with HID is you will not have a VD problem. Which more than likely you will with a 12 volt system. Which is why I brought up 24 volts before. So if you demo with 12 volts fixtures make sure you duplacate the wiring method you a forced to use. I can't tell you how many time I have seen this fundamental mistake. Demo with 12 volts but then get 8 volts to the lamp. Anyway here to good lighting

Mr. Mullen what is your opinion on this. I notice on commercial properties that have these huge jumbo 120v fixtures. The soft wide flood effect is so much more prevalent than with 12 volt lighting. It would take on average 3 to 4 LV fixtures to attempt to replicate what 1 of these lights does. I'm not talking about brightness but more coverage on what's being lighted, the width of the beam so to speak. Is it because of the width of the opening on the fixture , type of lamp, configuration of the fixture? Thank you for your time.

nate mullen
01-05-2008, 10:51 AM
Mr. Mullen what is your opinion on this. I notice on commercial properties that have these huge jumbo 120v fixtures. The soft wide flood effect is so much more prevalent than with 12 volt lighting. It would take on average 3 to 4 LV fixtures to attempt to replicate what 1 of these lights does. I'm not talking about brightness but more coverage on what's being lighted, the width of the beam so to speak. Is it because of the width of the opening on the fixture , type of lamp, configuration of the fixture? Thank you for your time.

Low voltage lighting is great for artist lighting............Landscape. Entry's, and a lot of other areas............For controlled beam spread and level of light. When you have a situation that calls for even foot-candles or higher levels of light NOT ARTIST HERE............. Parking lots. Tunnels, High traffic areas, streets and a lot of other places. it usually is more efficient to use a HID fixture more Lumen's per watt. A typical MR16 lamp (incandescent Halogen) is somewhere between 12 to 15 Lumen's per watt. Voltage really has nothing to so with this. It just that there are no 12 volt HID yet for landscape lighting ...............I'M working on that......... HID lamps are somewhere between 50 and 75 Lumen's per watt. Then combined with a reflector equals vary good light out put. FYI if I remember right ...it something like 100 percent of energy consumed in a incandescent only 10 percent is converted to light. Anyway just a quick response, these are deep subjects lots of variables...........got to go, Thanks, Nate

NightScenes
01-05-2008, 12:24 PM
FYI I think there is now a MH 12v MR16 on the market. I can't remember who puts it our right now but I'll get back to you on that.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-05-2008, 12:39 PM
Paul. Here is the info on the GE Constant Colour CMH Lamp. They call it an MR16 but it has a GU10 base and is not a LV unit.

http://www.gelighting.com/eu/resources/literature_library/product_brochures/downloads/CMHMR16Flyer.pdf

I would be very interested in finding out more about any LV HID Lamp (how would it be ballasted at 12V?) ... Please keep me in the loop.