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View Full Version : Bobcat Roc Or John Deere Roc


mrsops
12-20-2007, 09:03 PM
I Love When I See John Deere Owners Saying Bobcats Cant Lift **** Lol. But From The Specs I Read Bobcats Infact Are Stronger Then Deeres. And Lets No Cheat Deere Owners Dont Count In That Counterweight Bull That You Have To Pay (extra) For

bobcat_ron
12-20-2007, 09:28 PM
If that's what you read, you gotta try a Deere, they can lift more than Bobcat.

http://digdeeper.deere.com/digdeeper_media.html

cat2
12-20-2007, 10:05 PM
I don't know. The bobcat s-175 rated at 1750. And the JD 317 rated at 1750. Which one would lift more? I'm damn sure the JD will outlift the bobcat. Then take the bobcat s-250 and the JD 325. both rated at 2500. bet the john deere would out lift that too. I would like to see the biggest john deere and the biggest bobcat go at it. Ask most anyone John deere and new holland are your heavy lifters

P.Services
12-20-2007, 10:09 PM
i still want to know what lifts more a ct332 or a t300?

cat2
12-20-2007, 10:10 PM
payupmy money would be on the JD

mrsops
12-20-2007, 10:12 PM
t320 would outlift the ct332.

mrsops
12-20-2007, 10:14 PM
cat2 i have the baddest bobcat out s330 i would challenge the strongest deere anyday bring it on!!!!

P.Services
12-20-2007, 10:32 PM
cat2 i have the baddest bobcat out s330 i would challenge the strongest deere anyday bring it on!!!!

well on a boring day stack up a pallet with a bunch of block and see how much it can lift. keep adding more until it cant lift it. then weigh the pallet for me.

mrsops
12-20-2007, 10:37 PM
i do alot of block walls picasso. for instance allen block pallet they say weighs about 3800 lbs my 330 lifts it right off the flatbed trucks with no problem. pallet of sod weighs about 2,000 lbs i acually have fun with this one i pick the pallet up and high as it goes with my 330 it feels like its lifting nothing

cat2
12-20-2007, 10:48 PM
3800 isn't anything for the 330. I know i guy that has the JD 328 and he lifts that much

mrsops
12-20-2007, 10:50 PM
his john deere must be on steroids

cat2
12-20-2007, 10:58 PM
lol:laugh:

cat2
12-20-2007, 11:05 PM
The standard tipping load is 5,500 pounds, then if he had the weight that would add some, not sure if he did your not. The s-300 bobcat's tipping load is 6,000. thats not much more than the jd 328 with weights:weightlifter:

mrsops
12-20-2007, 11:25 PM
i have a s330 tipping load is 6720

AWJ Services
12-20-2007, 11:38 PM
i do alot of block walls picasso. for instance allen block pallet they say weighs about 3800 lbs my 330 lifts it right off the flatbed trucks with no problem. pallet of sod weighs about 2,000 lbs i acually have fun with this one i pick the pallet up and high as it goes with my 330 it feels like its lifting nothing

Stack 2 of those wall block Pallets and pick them up and take a picture.Post it when you do.

mrsops
12-20-2007, 11:40 PM
it would be able to move it around but it would never lift it up to put it on a ruck

AWJ Services
12-20-2007, 11:48 PM
I am curious if it will actually lift it.
My skid will and it has no where the ROC of your machine.
I am i no way suggesting to try to lift it more than a foot off of the ground.
Just an experiment.

mrsops
12-20-2007, 11:50 PM
i think it will lift it to the bottom on the door which is prob 3 or 4 feet

AWJ Services
12-20-2007, 11:52 PM
I would like to see that.
I actually posted a pick of my machine lifting 2 pallets and so far no one else has obliged me with a pic of theres doing it.

mrsops
12-20-2007, 11:54 PM
where can i see that pic?? i wish i had some allenblock laying around somewhere

AWJ Services
12-20-2007, 11:55 PM
http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=85467&d=1185327834

I will try to get it to link

AWJ Services
12-20-2007, 11:59 PM
That picture is only about 6500 pounds.
The machine would not move anything over7.5k to 8k off the ground with the forks.

mrsops
12-20-2007, 11:59 PM
thats not allenblock thou allenblocks weigh like 80lbs a block i know what block that is those weigh prob half. i bet those 2 skids only weigh a few hundred lbs more then one set of allenblock i have to see what i got laying in my yard i think i got a pallet of big boulders that weighs about 3200 lbs but thats nothing for the 330. how much does that tachechi or whatever it is lift?

AWJ Services
12-21-2007, 12:00 AM
http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=195086

Thats the original thread.

mrsops
12-21-2007, 12:03 AM
i know for a fact my s330 would lift those 2 pallets onto my truck thats not 6500 no way at most i bet you thats 5,000

AWJ Services
12-21-2007, 12:07 AM
The shipping weight is listed on the blocks.
Thats all I have to go by.

mrsops
12-21-2007, 12:08 AM
yeah those pallets do not look like they weigh 3,250 each cant be. how much does that machine lift

AWJ Services
12-21-2007, 12:17 AM
The 35% roc is only 2000 pounds.

I have lifted 2 pallets of the larger wall block also.

Once it gets past 7500 ponds the hyd will not budge.
My arm breakout is listed at that as well.

JD lists there Boom breakout at 6650 so how can it lift anymore than that?

What is the Boom breakout on the Bobcat?

cat2
12-21-2007, 07:33 PM
How is the New holland skid steer they will lift a lot won't they

mrsops
12-21-2007, 07:37 PM
the strongets machine out there right now is that gehl it lifts 3800 then the bobcat s330 now thats just the machine its self.. john deere and new holland add all these counterweights and they lift all diff weights but with out adding counterweights they dont lift as much as the 330 and the gehl

cat2
12-21-2007, 07:40 PM
Gehl is good, but not the biggest one the lifts 3,800 that thing is a junk from what i heard from 5 different people

mrsops
12-21-2007, 07:41 PM
really ha lol you ever see its huge!!! only good in open areas

cat2
12-21-2007, 07:48 PM
like i said before all bobcat does is add a little more power and add weight to the same frame and say its a new mahcine. Take the 883 all that was, was a 873 with more weight and a little more power. why have the s-150,s-160,s-175,s-185? you don't need all of them, get rid of the s-150 and s-175. Are the lift arms the same on the s-175 threw the s-205 or do they have it where bigger machine equals bigger lift arms. thats the way it should be. I looked at the Jd lifts arms and you can tell how everything gets bigger as you go to a bigger machine. and more power. the s-160 and s-185 have the same power. Why wouldn't the bigger machine have more power than the smaller one? i'm not saying bobcat is bad. so you can't hold that against me i'm just saying what i think

mrsops
12-21-2007, 07:51 PM
s160 and s185 have the same horserpower. put the s185 lifts 250lbs more. the s175 is a complete waste they should get rid of that machine. well 205 does look a little beefier now because of the bigger tires they put on it and it can handle a bigger bucket lifts enough to

ProTouch Groundscapes
12-21-2007, 07:58 PM
forgot what model of bobcat we rented once, but they delievered a load of versalok blocks on a flatbed tractor trailer when i requested a boom truck or tailgater, i tried picking up a pallet and the forks came off the machine. they took it back to the yard and brought em back on a boom truck. we took the first 2 stacks and moved em back closer to the backrest on the forks and were able to carry em around to the backyard like that about 1ft off the ground. versalok weighs 84lbs per block, total weight of the load was 33,700 some pounds.

mrsops
12-21-2007, 08:07 PM
you prob had a s185 trying to lift a 3000 lb pallet lol.. it depends how good of an operator you are i can lift a pallet of allen block that they say weighs 3,800 off the trailer with my t190 you have to kno how to use the forks.

kreft
12-21-2007, 09:09 PM
i still want to know what lifts more a ct332 or a t300?

how 'bout a NH C190 vs a JD CT332 ?

mrsops
12-21-2007, 09:15 PM
hey kfeft i wannna list all my trucks and machines on a eqipment link where and how do i do it

cat2
12-21-2007, 09:26 PM
how 'bout a NH C190 vs a JD CT332 ?

my money is on john deere. what about bobcat t320 vs jd 332

mrsops
12-21-2007, 09:29 PM
t320 all the way

cat2
12-21-2007, 09:34 PM
i'm not sure though

cat2
12-21-2007, 09:35 PM
the specs are about the same. just the bobcat has a little more power, but the tipping load is soooo close

mrsops
12-21-2007, 09:48 PM
i look at the specs as well t320 def has the upperhand

cat2
12-21-2007, 09:53 PM
if jd would come out with a bigger one, that one would oulift the bobcat with easy. buy there isn't a reason to go any bigger than that

Tigerotor77W
12-21-2007, 09:59 PM
total weight of the load was 33,700 some pounds.

WHOA! 33,700? That's like... more than fifteen tons! :weightlifter:

the 883 all that was, was a 873 with more weight and a little more power. why have the s-150,s-160,s-175,s-185?

To the 883 comment... alas the 873 and 883 were both powered by the same engine and shared the same hystat, and heck, just about everything except for wheels. :/ So apparently using heavier wheels can create a new model number as well! (jk, of course... just making light of the 883.)

To your question: the reason is actually quite simple. It's the reason Cat has a 246C and a 256C; the reason Deere has a 325 and a 328; the reason NH has the L180.B and a L185.B. The list goes on.

Some contractors don't really need the extra grunt associated with the S160, 256C, 328, or 185.B (or 262B if we're looking at the Cat 252B and 262B differences). Rental yards that need a machine capable of moving "2,000 pounds, every so often" can make do with any of the "cheaper" machines; no one's really going to care much if it has 72 or 78 horsepower or it lifts 2,500 or 2,700 pounds. In certain cases, the smaller machine will lift the advertised load of the larger, anyhow, so it's not so much a performance issue.

Owner/operators or owners who want the ultimate in comfort spec out larger machines either because they need the extra power or because they want, well, the total package.

For the manufacturer, the benefit is that which was just discussed -- and the fact that adding in two slabs of counterweight and new decals doesn't really cost much to engineer into the machine, but it can certainly get one more customer: the one who would have said, "Well, I'll just take the smaller machine because I can't afford the larger one." In a sense, then, rather than lose the S160 customer to the S130, the S150 may come at an attractive price point -- but NOT at an added cost to manufacture or engineer.

cat2
12-21-2007, 10:02 PM
i didn't know that the 873 and 883 had the same engine. yeah now that i think about it they do:laugh: you have many very good points there:)

AWJ Services
12-21-2007, 10:19 PM
This topic sucks without pictures.:dancing:

AWJ Services
12-21-2007, 10:26 PM
Some people base "Strongest" off of ROC.
My earlier post was brought up because my machines hyd are really strong for it's roc.
Heavy excavating in hard clay and land clearing requires really strong boom breakout and bucket curl.
I have not went head to head with a big Case but I have tangled with most of the rest.
Thats part of what spured my lifting thread.

crab
12-21-2007, 11:23 PM
AWJ is right on ,bobcat makes a fine machine,but if you want to talk tipping,sorry deere 9200 thats a little more than the bobcat,specs are very company subjective,and what ever makes you money and keeps you happy is the best machine.

SiteSolutions
12-21-2007, 11:28 PM
I'd like to know what my T-190 can actually lift. It will pick up a pallet of sod, but it doesn't like to curl it back all the way. It also makes for a lot of vibration when travelling like that on a hard surface.

I haven't done much work with bigger standard weight blocks. Maybe I could use something else.

mrsops
12-21-2007, 11:34 PM
site solutions i have lifted 3,800 lbs allenblock pallets off trailers. and your having problems lifting 2,000 lb pallet of sod? the forks should curl back with no problem maybe theres something up with your machine. the t190 wont lift the allen block more then a foot off the ground but u can get it around a bit. when i take that heavy stuff off i use my 330 now but what i did to with my t190 was sort of use the trailer to slide the pallet off with the forks you have to know how to use the forks and curl them back at the same time

SiteSolutions
12-21-2007, 11:40 PM
Dunno, it's my second 190 and this one I got new, only 400 hours ago. Neither one has seemed enthusiastic about heavy items.

I can get the sod to curl if I lean the machine back, like I back away from the curb with the sod on the forks, and as I back across the crown in the road, I curl it up.

I also don't run it wide-@ss open, especially when picking up loads that might try to spill if I jerk them around. Maybe if I give it some revs I would get better performance? I would think lifting force is more to do with hydraulic pressure, not flow, and so revs would be less critical. Maybe Tigerotor can shed some light on that theory?

AWJ Services
12-21-2007, 11:42 PM
Our sod down here gets irrigated 24/7 in the fields before cutting and it can weigh well over 2000 pounds.
Most times they can only deliver 18 500 sq/ft pallets.
A T190 will struggle with a pallet of sod down here.

P.Services
12-21-2007, 11:42 PM
seems to be a lot of knowledge on this thread so does any one know if i can change a ct332 from hand and foot controls to hands only if i buy some parts and what not? or all things set up to diffrent under neath.

mrsops
12-21-2007, 11:42 PM
very strange. my t190 does the trick when it comes to lifting what it has to lift maybe im a better operator lol just kidding. let me ask you something can you pick up a whole pallet of sod and put it on your dump truck i hope so if not theres something major wrong i have lifting pallets of sod with the s175

AWJ Services
12-21-2007, 11:47 PM
Our fescue sod here does not weigh squat.
It does not need irrigation like the warm weather turf grasses do.
Not apples to apples.

mrsops
12-21-2007, 11:51 PM
i have alot of knowledge with bobcats i have owned every dam model from 743 753 763 which was a great machine also had 773 863 everything. now they got all the new numbers out but its cool how now you can tell how much a bobcat can lift by not even looking at spec just look at the number and add a 0. for instance. s330 lifts 3300 s205 lifts 2050 s250 lifts 2500 and so on lol

2109 Stang
12-22-2007, 12:31 AM
Gehl is good, but not the biggest one the lifts 3,800 that thing is a junk from what i heard from 5 different people

cat2: I have a 2109 mustang and I know of another in my area with 4000 hrs and still running strong these are the same as the big Gehl, no problems so far ,these are big machines and they perform great and with 115 net hp there is power that you will never need ,but is good to know that you have the most power full machine there is.

mrsops
12-22-2007, 12:34 AM
i know one guy that owns a mustang he hated it so much i think he tried driving it off the bridge lol im only kidding he did hate it thou

Scag48
12-22-2007, 06:26 AM
I really like Gehl machines for lift capacity. A buddy of mine has a 5640 turbo that is AWESOME for lifting. We were lifting 3,500 pound pallets pretty easy, probably wouldn't lift them off a truck, well maybe on flat ground anyway, but that machine is a hoss for it's size. The 85 hp beast of a motor feels like it has much more than 85, I can move quite a bit of dirt quick. I'd like to get into a Case 465 one of these days and take one of them for a run around the block.

2109 Stang
12-22-2007, 11:40 AM
Scag: I have run the 5640 and your right that thing has power and the 465 case is very power full too ,that was my first choice machine ,but I'm glad they didn't treat me good at Case and went for the Mustang ,but non the less the 465 is a big machine by all means ,a friend of mine has one that I get to run every now and then ,also the 450 Case, monster ,lots of power and pilots are easy to get used to .

kreft
12-22-2007, 12:38 PM
hey kfeft i wannna list all my trucks and machines on a eqipment link where and how do i do it

Alright you go up to the "quick links" in the green tool bar, ( above the eXmark banner) click the down arrow, and as you scroll down the list of things to chose from, you'll come across "edit signiture" click on that, then you'll be at the edit signiture page , so then you copy and paste the links in your signiture. Good luck.

Tigerotor77W
12-22-2007, 01:00 PM
I would think lifting force is more to do with hydraulic pressure, not flow, and so revs would be less critical. Maybe Tigerotor can shed some light on that theory?

I actually have no idea how various hydraulic systems work. My university lacks a turbomachinery (i.e. pumps) course, and just ditzing around on the internet hasn't really yielded a thorough guide, either. :(

I do know that to some degree, engine RPMs do affect lifting ability. I don't know how much it'll be affected, but it's certainly probable that running at WOT would allow you to lift the pallets.

cat2
12-22-2007, 02:53 PM
i may have to try a gehl out in the furture. And yes you want to run WOT when lifting

ksss
12-22-2007, 07:41 PM
Gehl has always believed in high hp machines. You don't hear a Gehl owner complain about lack of power. I think their fit and finish needs improvement and their resale is poor, however they are very capable machines.

qps
12-22-2007, 09:03 PM
i may have to try a gehl out in the furture. And yes you want to run WOT when lifting

I tried a CTL 70 earlier this year:confused:no anit-stall...I was stalling the machine almost everytime I ran it into a pile of dirt, and the cab was like sitting in a bath tub...:hammerhead:...IMHO...not for me....

cat2
12-22-2007, 09:36 PM
ok maybe i won't try gehl. i don't know i just don't think they are all that. new holland is good i think?

Scag48
12-22-2007, 10:28 PM
Gehl has always believed in high hp machines. You don't hear a Gehl owner complain about lack of power. I think their fit and finish needs improvement and their resale is poor, however they are very capable machines.

Your analysis is spot on, fit and finish sucks terribly and they have zero resale. The farm guys that run them back east primarily really don't care about either, that's where Gehl is pretty popular.

I really want to get into a big Case and see how I feel about one. I have somewhat lost faith in Cat producing a powerful, wheeled machine. Our 277B definately had grunt, it would be nice to have a wheeled counterpart that could say the same. Maybe the 272C? Only time will tell. My dad had a 248B on rent for about a month on a big retaining wall job. The same engine on paper as the 277B we had, but felt like it had zero go even when it wasn't under serious load. I was terribly disappointed with the 248, maybe we had a junk machine, but it only had 150 hours on it.

ksss
12-23-2007, 04:42 AM
i have a s330 tipping load is 6720


Tipping load on the CASE 465 is 7000 with counterweight.

cat2
12-23-2007, 09:37 AM
Tipping load on the CASE 465 is 7000 with counterweight.

I came up with 6500. the tipping load is 6000, and the counterweight adds 500. i think i did this right:confused:

ksss
12-23-2007, 12:49 PM
The counterweight weighs 990 pounds. They attribute 1000 for tipping weight. The ROC with counter weight is 3650. The 7000 pound number I got off of the website. The ROC without is 3000.

landstyles
01-16-2008, 08:55 PM
Don't believe the Bobcat lifting ratings...Checked out the math and its wrong. Plus there is no better test than a field test. We went with the Deere Ct322. It's a beast... We unload 4200lbs skids off our truck no prob and no counter in our machine.

mrsops
01-16-2008, 09:00 PM
what math are you talking about? and i dont have a problem lifting a 4080 lb pallet of allenblock off my truck either with my T190 have to kno how to use your machine

Tigerotor77W
01-16-2008, 09:10 PM
Checked out the math and its wrong. Plus there is no better test than a field test.

I agree with the second point you made, but can you shed light on what math you checked?

bobcat_ron
01-16-2008, 09:22 PM
what math are you talking about? and i dont have a problem lifting a 4080 lb pallet of allenblock off my truck either with my T190 have to kno how to use your machine


Try lifting it back on, that's where Deere has Bobcat beat, Deere doesn't seem to have that dreaded "dead zone" in their loader design.

mrsops
01-16-2008, 09:25 PM
yeah it wont lift it back on the truck i dont think the ct322 will either

landstyles
01-17-2008, 11:42 AM
The Deere will put it back on truck. I've done it. Driver picked up the wrong brick color and had to reload the truck. No problem.
As for the math...with track machines, by law the 35% tipping load is the only spec that has to be true. 50% and 100% seem to be fudged by some maufacturers.
Best way to see who can lift what. Do what we did. Throw a skid of pavers on your truck and drive to different dealers and test their machines to see who can unload and load.

landstyles
01-17-2008, 03:05 PM
Deere power....in the mud too

KRtraxx
01-17-2008, 04:12 PM
I know they are BIG over grown horses(too big and cumbersome for most job sites in buildings) but as far as all out lifting Capacity the Mustang 2109 wins hands down.But I am well aware it is flat out a bigger class machine than most we are talking about here... The most incredible lift I ever seen a skid do was a 2109 with a VTS system on it.It lifted another stock tired 2109 right off the ground.Man that 10,500# .. But lots of that lift is due to the longer wheelbase and weight the VTS adds to the 2109.A tire equipped one wouldnt even come close to lifting that.The VTS totally changes what an original wheeled machine can lift.ROC class for ROC class the VTS wheeled units will outlift the factory track units just about every time in the same weight class.The limiting factor is not the chassis sometimes, but the hydraulics going into relief mode...

Construct'O
01-17-2008, 05:25 PM
I know they are BIG over grown horses(too big and cumbersome for most job sites in buildings) but as far as all out lifting Capacity the Mustang 2109 wins hands down.But I am well aware it is flat out a bigger class machine than most we are talking about here... The most incredible lift I ever seen a skid do was a 2109 with a VTS system on it.It lifted another stock tired 2109 right off the ground.Man that 10,500# .. But lots of that lift is due to the longer wheelbase and weight the VTS adds to the 2109.A tire equipped one wouldnt even come close to lifting that.The VTS totally changes what an original wheeled machine can lift.ROC class for ROC class the VTS wheeled units will outlift the factory track units just about every time in the same weight class.The limiting factor is not the chassis sometimes, but the hydraulics going into relief mode...

You got pictures,i would like to see that.

zedosix
01-17-2008, 05:57 PM
Last spring I was in the market for a new skidsteer (wheeled unit) I put 3 machines to test, a cat 287, bobcat s250, gehl 5640e.

Gehl was the only one to lift the rear end of my gmc 5500 off the ground.
I couldn't believe it did that. Cat was next strongest and s250 wouldn't budge it. All nice machines but I couldn't see out that damn cat, probably would of bought it, if it werent for that. I ended up buying the gehl, its a workhorse. Compared to my thomas its a cadillac.

KRtraxx
01-17-2008, 06:40 PM
You got pictures,i would like to see that.

No I dont have a pic of that Construt O .But a dealer I know does have a 2109 with a VTS on it.I will see what I can come up with and post it.I'd like to see it again myself.One things for sure..I better have a set of damn good forks before a guy does that one.. lol.

Construct'O
01-17-2008, 08:25 PM
What will that machine with the tracks on it weight out at ?????

Will be looking forward to pictures.:usflag:

dons
01-17-2008, 08:43 PM
I'm no expert, but I put my former JD 317 side by side up against my current BC S185 and can tell you the 317 is certainly a more capable lifter. The S185 could barely lift pallets of pavers (estimated 3100 lbs) enough to move them on a perfect grade while the 317 would lift them. It was working, but it would definitely lift them without a problem to a dangerous height.

mrsops
01-17-2008, 08:45 PM
use a s205 its a little stronger then the 317

cat2
01-17-2008, 08:53 PM
so what are you saying? you need a size bigger bobcat to lift what a smaller deere will. if thats the case then deere is stronger

mrsops
01-17-2008, 08:56 PM
s205 is a medium frame machine lol its the same excact size as the s175 and s185 its not bigger then the 317 its stronger thou

JDSKIDSTEER
01-17-2008, 08:57 PM
Then bring out a 320.

mrsops
01-17-2008, 09:00 PM
then bring out a s220 lol

cat2
01-17-2008, 09:01 PM
then bring out the 325. it would smoke the s220

JDSKIDSTEER
01-17-2008, 09:02 PM
It's like a poker game....LOL.....My moma's fatter than your moma.

mrsops
01-17-2008, 09:04 PM
see now your bringing the bigger deere into this lol. hey cat2 can deere make that 313 with inverted rims to make it 4' wide??

cat2
01-17-2008, 09:11 PM
no john deere doesn't offer the real small skidders. take the 320 with weights and it would give the s220 a good run

Fieldman12
01-17-2008, 09:42 PM
:weightlifter:Bobcat has some nice things about them but they are not the skid steer on steroids by any means. If you want the lift capacity go Deere.

mrsops
01-17-2008, 09:44 PM
i have my s330 for lifting. i have owned deeres before they can lift i just like bobcat better for the thing i do

Fieldman12
01-17-2008, 09:47 PM
What size Deere's did you have? Why did you get rid of them? What do you like better about the Bobcat's?

mrsops
01-17-2008, 09:52 PM
we had a 7775 and a 6775 i think those were the numbers its been 5 years since i had a deere. i got rid of them and bought a 773 and a 763 dont get me wrong those deeres were stronger but for grading and visibility the bobcats were better plus those deeres were a lil ass heavy. i also thought the cabs were more comfy in the bobcat

Fieldman12
01-17-2008, 09:56 PM
Ic those are the New Holland made machines before Deere starting producing the 200 Series on there own.

mrsops
01-17-2008, 10:00 PM
yeah your right fieldman they werent anygood for me thats why i never bought a new holland there just so dam big in the back lol, maybe ill give john deere another shot down the road some of my guys liked them better then bobcat some of my guys liked the bobcat better i personally liked bobcat better as well but ya know its all depending on what you like.