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View Full Version : Need a Par 36 fixture for underwater application.


Lite4
12-24-2007, 12:10 PM
Does anybody know of a good underwater fixture for a Par 36. I have to confess I have not looked around at too many different manufacturers for this fixture yet. However, I have never seen one for the Par bulb. Does any body make one?

Thanks

mfgreps
12-24-2007, 12:24 PM
Tim,

You might want to consider the LED underwater fixtures offered by Kichler. They are only 5 watts and have a 40,000 hour lamp life.

Lite4
12-24-2007, 12:54 PM
Thanks for the suggestion but I would use an MR before I would use LED. This fixture will be mounted just slightly out of the water, but the housing needs to be waterproof for the occasional splash of water.
Thanks

mfgreps
12-24-2007, 01:01 PM
Tim,

They are designed for underwater use and very compact. The lumen output is equal to a 20W 60 degree MR-16.

Pro-Scapes
12-24-2007, 01:09 PM
SPJ 13- 36
focus sl 11
clarolux portofino
RSL has one too. I really think these all may be the same fixture tho. I notice your SPJ's are falling apart... are they the brass ones ?

Lite4
12-24-2007, 01:22 PM
Tim,

They are designed for underwater use and very compact. The lumen output is equal to a 20W 60 degree MR-16.

I have had reps try to pull the wool over my eyes with LEDs in the past. After I tried them I can assure you they are not even close to the color or output of BAB MR-16. Nice try though.

Billy, Yes those are the thin brass SPJ's. They are falling apart and starting to show corrosian. I don't know if the brass is mixed with some other metal because brass should not be showing corrosian like they are. I have some other pictures that would scare those SPJ reps.

Pro-Scapes
12-24-2007, 01:31 PM
I never been a fan of SPJ... You may want to look at the focus pics close and see if its the same casting. All the underwaters I have used have been MR fixtures.

I just looked and the focus is NOT the same as the spj The spj and claro look strikingly similar tho.

mfgreps
12-24-2007, 01:35 PM
In general the claims of manufacturers regarding color and output have been very bad. I would not ever want to make a claim that I know was not true. I have seen the proformance of the Kichler LED and it is like no other on the market today. I know a contractor that uses them on ever underwater job, because he has found that it performs as stated.

The challenge with any MR-16 or PAR36 fixture in an underwater application regardless of how careful you are when replacing the lamp it never seems to seal properly.

Pro-Scapes
12-24-2007, 01:41 PM
I dont see the led's having enough bang to light these falls as I think tim is intending. I too hear the Kichlers have a very robust color and a desireable output and the future is there in LED's but you cant compare LED mr bulbs to that of the output of a 35w

mfgreps
12-24-2007, 02:26 PM
I was at the Irrigation Association Show in San Diego and saw Kichler's 10 degree, 35 degree and 60 degree fixtures in 4.5W, 8.5W and 12.5W. These are equivalent to the MR-16 20W, 35W and 50W respectively. They are not for underwater, but the performance exceeded the MR-16 in quality of light with the correct color.

Pro-Scapes
12-24-2007, 02:49 PM
sounds great but its a tad off topic. He is asking for a par underwater light. Tim is an acomplished lighting technician.

First you stated kichler led underwater now you say they are not for use underwater. Perhaps this info on leds should be in the led thread not the request for a par underwater light.:):)

Lite4
12-24-2007, 04:22 PM
Thanks Mfgrep. I looked at the Kichler LED side by side with the MRs and was not impressed with it. Some may like it and that is fine. It just isn't for me.

Billy, you are right, I do need the punch of Par on the falls on some of those Tuscany pics you probably saw. There is another entryway that will really need. Since it is an entryway and not a house, I need the light levels to be just slightly higher than normal because of all the headlights passing and reflecting as they turn in competing with the ambiant light of the fountains.

Mike M
12-24-2007, 04:33 PM
Tim, are PAR stake-mounts for crosslighting out of the question?

Lite4
12-24-2007, 04:37 PM
Yeah Mike probably. I found a couple of underwaters. An SL-11 made by Focus and some similar looking one from Dabmar. Anyone ever use one of these?

Mike, I am going to place the pars on pedestals so that the bulb just sticks its head out of the water. I am looking at placing them slightly behind where the falls drop in to light the stucco behind and silhoutte the water falling in the basin. I have several other applications for them on the other fountains.

Pro-Scapes
12-24-2007, 11:15 PM
the only thing I like from dabmar really is the permapost... I have not seen thier par underwater light but like just about all their products im sure its a copy of something or something someone has copied.

The only issue I have had with fo fo fo focass (yes the reject studder intended) is about 100 of their dl 13 bullets had about the worse crimp connectors you could imagine. Just plain blue butt crimps with the plastic insulator on it. Their BBQ lights and some of their paths I have used have been fine so far.

Chris J
12-25-2007, 07:52 PM
In general the claims of manufacturers regarding color and output have been very bad. I would not ever want to make a claim that I know was not true. I have seen the proformance of the Kichler LED and it is like no other on the market today. I know a contractor that uses them on ever underwater job, because he has found that it performs as stated.

The challenge with any MR-16 or PAR36 fixture in an underwater application regardless of how careful you are when replacing the lamp it never seems to seal properly.

Here is your problem: You are going by what other people say and not by personal experience. Until you have installed a couple thousand of these things for yourself, and you can be assured that they are sound, don't preach to us that they are the best thing since sliced bread! I am a believer in Kichler products, and I do believe that their LED line is the best that the industry has to offer. I get very upset, however, when a rep comes on here and claims that a lamp will last 40,000 hrs when he probably hasn't even been with the company 20,000 hrs!
I'm sorry for my candor, and maybe I've spoken out of turn so I'll go ahead and make my disclaimer. Sometimes I fly off the handle toward people I don't know. I don't know you, but I get the impression that you are quoting statistics. Most LEDs are rated to last upwards of 18-20 years. Have you been around long enough to know if this is true? Hell no! Nothing personal though because no one else has either!

Pro-Scapes
12-25-2007, 09:33 PM
Here is your problem: You are going by what other people say and not by personal experience. Until you have installed a couple thousand of these things for yourself, and you can be assured that they are sound, don't preach to us that they are the best thing since sliced bread! I am a believer in Kichler products, and I do believe that their LED line is the best that the industry has to offer. I get very upset, however, when a rep comes on here and claims that a lamp will last 40,000 hrs when he probably hasn't even been with the company 20,000 hrs!
I'm sorry for my candor, and maybe I've spoken out of turn so I'll go ahead and make my disclaimer. Sometimes I fly off the handle toward people I don't know. I don't know you, but I get the impression that you are quoting statistics. Most LEDs are rated to last upwards of 18-20 years. Have you been around long enough to know if this is true? Hell no! Nothing personal though because no one else has either!


Merry Christmas to you too Chris :)

Chris J
12-25-2007, 10:21 PM
What? Am I being to forward? Sorry.

JoeyD
12-26-2007, 11:54 AM
I have had experience with the Focus SL11. The failures I had with them wa the retaner ring not selaing tight enough to the lamp to keep water out. Some have worked out well while others continued to fail. 50/50 chance in my opinion.

Lite4
12-26-2007, 04:49 PM
Joey,
Can you recomend one for me?

JoeyD
12-27-2007, 11:49 AM
I really only have Par36 underwater lighting experience with the Focus SL11. Other than that I am sure you can look maybe to Hubble or Hydrel for another option but expect the cost to be really high.

NightScenes
12-27-2007, 01:32 PM
Focus, RSL and Clarolux each offer a PAR underwater light. There are probably more.

Lite4
12-29-2007, 06:06 PM
Joey,
Instead of calling your underwater light 'Nautilus', you should name it the "AQUARIUS". All of your lights are named after something celestial in the heavens or some other phenomenon in space. The constellation 'Aquarius' means "water bearer". So there you go, you can continue your celestial names for your odyssey line without coming back to Earth.

JoeyD
12-29-2007, 06:57 PM
Oh man, I just wish we called the light "The Stainless Steel Underwater Light."

You can have that discussion with Nate....LOL He names the babies!!

pete scalia
12-30-2007, 02:10 PM
Nightscaping Dolphin in cu, it's been around since the turn of the century. Lamp changeouts are no joke though as you must break and remake a silicone seal. I like the little bite mark they have in the plastic lens. Looks like a Dolphin took a nip out of it.

Lite4
12-30-2007, 08:44 PM
Thanks Pete, I will check it out. I still don't know why nobody makes an enclosed fixture for the par. I can't imagine they get any hotter than an MR.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-31-2007, 07:50 AM
Tim. I have stayed out of this for a bit. I think you might be better served with a MR16 fixture and lenses then with a PAR36 --- esp in an underwater application.

That being said, it is true that NS makes the dolphin, but it will be a service challenge over time. They do make a steel version which makes no sense to me so the copper would be the way to go. (note to others: there cannot be any aquatic life in the pond that you install a copper fixture in, it will kill the fish.) Here is the info on servicing the Dolphin. http://www.nightscaping.com/instructions/relamping/relamp_dolphin.pdf

If you are stuck on using a PAR36 underwater fixture, then I would be looking to Hydrel. They make some awesome specification / architectural grade underwater fixtures. I have not reviewed their line to see if they have a PAR36 fixture but it would be worth a look. http://www.hydrel.com/Products/Category.asp?ProductType=Underwater&Category=Fountain%20and%20Reflecting%20Pool%20Fixtures

A picture of the dolphin is attached.

Have a great day.

Lite4
12-31-2007, 09:42 AM
Thanks James,
I have heard about trying to change the bulb out on the dolphin. The advice I received was throw it away and buy a different light simply because it is such a pain to replace and reseal. I am sure I will end up going with MRs since my search is yielding little to no prospects in the par section. I am still curious why it is so difficult to find a fully enclosed one. I imagine it is simply a cost issue.

pete scalia
12-31-2007, 11:22 AM
Thanks James,
I have heard about trying to change the bulb out on the dolphin. The advice I received was throw it away and buy a different light simply because it is such a pain to replace and reseal. I am sure I will end up going with MRs since my search is yielding little to no prospects in the par section. I am still curious why it is so difficult to find a fully enclosed one. I imagine it is simply a cost issue.

You mean the little bite out on the lens hasn't sold you? I fell for it hook line and sinker.

JoeyD
12-31-2007, 05:43 PM
I think that is the only Copper underwater light I have ever seen.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-31-2007, 07:44 PM
I think that is the only Copper underwater light I have ever seen.

It is kind of "old school" for sure... but hey, look at the lamp technology it employs!

RELAX everyone... It is called dry humour for a reason.

JoeyD
12-31-2007, 08:38 PM
looooooowwwwwww BLOOOOOOWWWWWW..........But I bet it is a 4414 and not a Par36 Halogen.....LOL So you may actually be correct.