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View Full Version : Brain Storming #2


Lite4
12-24-2007, 12:19 PM
Hey guys,
Inspired by Mr. Johnson. I have posted some pictures of an entryway fountain that I am going to potentially be lighting. There are 4 on this project, all are different in style and shape from this one. I already have a pretty good idea of how I am going to light this but it is fun to get your perspective and maybe get some new ideas I may not have considered. They have a low volt system there now but they are all SPJ fixtures that are misplaced, burned out and falling apart. We are starting fresh on this one.

Mike M
12-24-2007, 03:52 PM
Well since all the other guys are starting early with festivus, I'll test my basic design skills. It actually seems easy, and I'm sure you have it figured out. But, this is where I would tune my skills with a demo.

Those columns are nice focal points and so is the sign. Eyes can easily move up or to the sides on the whole portrait. I would up-light each of the columns with one well each. Let the ambient light hit the top frames, etc.

With the sign as a primary focal point, it would look architecturally nice with maybe 3 curved hooded fixtures mounted as downlights. Or, just hit them with at least 3 uplights from below, avoiding the single flood fixture thing. No stakes if possible, aiming has to remain precise, landscapers will kick them.

Waterfalls, take your coice, but for simpliciy you can cross light from the dirt, using stakes. Careful on far right and left, fixtures on a cross light may be facing too much forward as a glare issue. See if inside stakes can cover it, if it doesn't, resort to using underwater uplights.

Both levels of stone walls for some nice 3-D horizontal layering and elimination of dark areas. Upper wall being illuminated will make some nice back lighting on plants. Lower wall, down light from cap; stay out of the grass with fixtures.

Note: the downlight idea on the sign may be a bit of a specialty fixture thing with some surface mounting and wire-puilling, but the downlighting would be consistent with the other walls.

I love trees and plants, but they are not the focal points, and there is enough backlighting and ambient light to appreciate their textures.

How did I do?

Lite4
12-24-2007, 04:42 PM
Here is fountain #2 just to give you the variety view.

Lite4
12-24-2007, 04:45 PM
Fountain #3

Lite4
12-24-2007, 04:47 PM
Finally fountain #4. Sorry for all the pics

Mike M
12-24-2007, 05:26 PM
Tim, I can see why you want some underwater PAR's to kick up the illumination, but my hunch is to get out of the water with down-lighting, cross lighting, etc.

You got a big demo kit, take it out there and apply some strategies.

Mike M
12-24-2007, 05:30 PM
Tim,

Fountain number 3, let go of the water. View from cars is not water, it's the focal point on sign and columns.

If anything, you'll get nice reflections anyways.

The Lighting Geek
12-24-2007, 06:16 PM
I would light the spillways with an up light in the water, slightly in front of the impact area and you will get moving light as a result. I would do a demo starting from underwater and ad from above the water as needed to complete the portrait. Water is very tricky, you should demo it to be sure the desired effect will be possible. I would light the columns on the inside only to ad depth as you move past the structures. I definitely would look at lighting those walls from the water, possible raising the fixtures to help minimize lumen loss from the depth of water.

I set up my checklist on unusal jobs like this:

1. establish the point of view and/or perspectives
2. decide on a theme or style
3. establish focal points
4. figure out continuity/rhythm
5. demo the crap out of it to confirm

Sometimes the best ideas really suck when you demo. It is about this moment that I laugh at myself. Your a good lighting guy and you most likely already know this stuff.

Lite4
12-24-2007, 06:23 PM
Mike,
I know not all the fountains are going to have the same stratagies and focal points. The signage, domes and columns are my focals. I will be downlighting the columns to pickup the pools and railings below. The only water lights I need are underneath the spillways. The small one already have some MRs in them that just need to be raised out of the deep water so they can be more effective. The majority of all the lighting will be out of the water.

Lite4
12-24-2007, 06:29 PM
Thanks Tommy. Yeah, I pretty much already have this one dialed in how I am going to do it, but it is neat to hear all the different ways someone might approach it. I will have to be pretty creative with some of my mounts and I will be custom making some mounts for raising the lights out of the deep water.

Pro-Scapes
12-26-2007, 06:08 PM
I would try to use more muted light inside the water and like Geekster said make that light dance on all the walls. Whats with the line voltage or low voltage recessed ? Will you be retaining these ?

Make the water dance and then place some 20w (or maybe 35w) mr lamps below the tuscany signs. I like the idea of the pars to fill things out.

We did a 2 ft deep fountain with 10w lamps grazing a wall and 20w on the statue and it came out teriffice. Obviously you will need more punch on this here.

Ecellent project and I look forward to seeing your demo and finished project.

Lite4
12-27-2007, 11:15 PM
Ok guys, Here is what I came up with for a design for the 1st entryway. Let me know what you think.

Pro-Scapes
12-28-2007, 09:31 AM
typo in description 4 :)

Looks good otherwise. How wide is the base of the falls and how far will it be from your light. Instead of using a single 35 w would multiple fixtures give you a better coverage ?

Lite4
12-28-2007, 10:17 AM
Each end of the falls is about 6' wide. The par will be placed underneath about 1.5' from the base of it, (if I can find a reliable underwater par).

Pro-Scapes
12-28-2007, 10:26 AM
I never lit a fall like this before but I would probably lean on demoing 2 lower wattage lamps diving the 6 ft into thirds.


2 ft in from the edge... 2 ft apart on the lights and 2 ft to the next wall.

I could be wrong but this would be my initial concept. Curious to see how it turns out.

Lite4
12-28-2007, 10:34 AM
I will have to go take a look at it and see. I will try it with one and if it isn't sufficient or even, will go with 2. I am going to get some light bleed over from the 75 watters right next to it on the signage.

JoeyD
12-28-2007, 10:34 AM
I wish our Nautilus was ready, this woul be the perfect light. I hope to hvae it released soon!

Lite4
12-28-2007, 10:41 AM
Joey, My surname is Capt. Nemo. So when it is built I will take the Nautilus to sea for you.

JoeyD
12-28-2007, 10:44 AM
LOL.....You will enjoy it. It isnt going to be cheap per se but it will be able to hold up to a 75w lamp I believe and will also be able to go about 6-7ft deep without pressure issues. It is an MR16 underwater light completely machined form Stainless Steel. I will make sure to get some pics up and let you guys know when it is available.

Lite4
12-30-2007, 08:38 PM
Billy,
I set up the lights under the bottom of the spillway. 1 MR set back about 2' with a 35w 60 degree spread was easily enough to light the whole section. So far I will stick with the plan on that one.
I do need a mount that will stand off of the steel a bit for downlighting the pillars. There is a little square piece of finial at the top of the colomn I am going to have to extend out over. I will need to find a bracket for it or custom make something myself.

Pro-Scapes
12-31-2007, 03:27 PM
draw me a quick sketch and email it to me of what you need. I can fabricate well with stainless or copper.

Lite4
12-31-2007, 07:25 PM
Let me get some measurements and I'll get back to you.
Thanks

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
12-31-2007, 07:39 PM
Let me get some measurements and I'll get back to you.
Thanks

Guys... Be careful with DIY fixtures. I don't want to open up a kettle of fish over approvals and standards again, but there are lots of good reasons why you do not want to be fabricating your own lighting fixtures and then installing them on your client's properties. Even doing trick installations like building your own stems to create a sign light can be problematic if you don't have proper approvals.

Be Safe, not Sorry.

Lite4
12-31-2007, 07:48 PM
James,
I am only looking at a bracket with a pre manufactured light.

pete scalia
12-31-2007, 07:52 PM
Guys... Be careful with DIY fixtures. I don't want to open up a kettle of fish over approvals and standards again, but there are lots of good reasons why you do not want to be fabricating your own lighting fixtures and then installing them on your client's properties. Even doing trick installations like building your own stems to create a sign light can be problematic if you don't have proper approvals.

Be Safe, not Sorry.

Put a green fuse in it- Oy Vey!

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-01-2008, 10:13 AM
James,
I am only looking at a bracket with a pre manufactured light.

Tim: Sorry I misunderstood the thread there. I thought you were discussing having a application specific fixture hammered out. No worries over a mounting bracket, I fabricate all sorts of those here when needed.

Although....... You do want to avoid building stand off stems for "sign lights". These need to be engineered for weight and distance and torque (twisting strength) for them to be safe.

Lite4
01-01-2008, 01:01 PM
Here is a picture of the top of a pillar. You can see how far out I have to mount to get over that pillar top cap.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-01-2008, 06:54 PM
Tim, Not sure what fixture you have in mind for the top of those Pillars but I have sucessfully used the Nightscaping Artisan (with and without the glare shroud) in applications much like that. Take a good look at the .pdf file on their website. It is a really versatile mounting system.... a bit nuts and bolts looking if you mount it in close proximity to people, but up high it just disappears.

They also have the MR11 Acrobat with the same mounting, but an open fixture which I am not keen on.

Have a great day.

Chris J
01-01-2008, 07:44 PM
Why not just use an "L" bracket? Mount one side to the top of the pillar (horizontally) and use the vertical to mount your fixture.

Pro-Scapes
01-02-2008, 08:45 AM
copper would color nice and match the timbers a bit. Nothing wrong with making a bracket to get the best mounting positing possible

Too bad that mounting base wasnt turned diagnoly on there. You could almost recess in an MR 11 fixture in the corner. Still possibly an option and do 1 light on each side of the pillar vs straight down ??

JoeyD
01-02-2008, 09:36 AM
I would side light those colums. One light on each side VS. lighting them strait in front. Much easier to mount by doing that and would still create a nice effect. You could flush mount Comets right in to the beam.

Lite4
01-02-2008, 09:58 AM
These are some great suggestions guys. The beam you are looking at is steel and not wood, just so you know.

JoeyD
01-02-2008, 10:04 AM
Side Light those bad boys!! Steel Beam will be just as easy to mount to.

Lite4
01-02-2008, 10:07 AM
My other option is to uplight the columns and catch a good portion of the crossbeam. I prefer to do this but I would have to get permission to remove some grasses in front of the columns. Don't you think I would get a better effect this way?

JoeyD
01-02-2008, 11:00 AM
I love uplit columns. We actually mounted some Probe OSM fixtures to the columns base on one job that had the columns running into concrete. The downside to uplighting is you lose some of the area light that down lighting will give you. Both effects up or down look good but i still think side lighting the columns weather up or down will look better. Just my opinion.

Lite4
01-02-2008, 01:13 PM
I will go out and demo the side lighting on those columns and take a look at it. The columns with the dome are definitely going to have lights mounted on top to light up the caps and fountains below. I will also have uplight on the interior of the domes to catch all of the metal up there too. so between uplighting the domes and downlight or crosslighting the surrounding columns it should spread the light out pretty well.

JoeyD
01-02-2008, 01:39 PM
The picture here illustrates how we lit the dome at "The Unique Test Home". This was done prior to the columns being formed around the wood beams. We piggy backed 2 Strat Brackets and mounted Probe-OSM fixtures.
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/ApplicationShots019.jpg


This pic below shows the effect the dome has with one up and down light placed at each column. Notice the effect we created by only lighting the interior of the column and dome. To the right you can see how the other columns are being uplit with fixtures mounted at the base. This gives the arbor above a nice look.
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/Panorama6-AutoCrop.jpg


This picture shows a job that has 2 Quasar 1 (we did not have Probe OSM back when this job was done) mounted to each column to uplight them and also back light the sheet waterfall.
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/DSCN2127.jpg


I always like a picture to show an effect. I wish I had some better side lit column pictures to show.

Lite4
01-02-2008, 08:42 PM
Wow Joey, I had no idea the light shining inside the dome was mounted that high. I guess that makes sense though given the high degree of reflection on the iron. I had assumed the uplights for the dome were ground mounted inside and washing the iron above. You are probably not going to get it that bright lighting from below on the concrete though. Thanks for the pics, that helps a lot seeing the setup.

Pro-Scapes
01-02-2008, 10:09 PM
I would side light those colums. One light on each side VS. lighting them strait in front. Much easier to mount by doing that and would still create a nice effect. You could flush mount Comets right in to the beam.

didnt i just say side light em with a recessed small fixture ? comets would work or another small fixture. not in the beams tho.... do it in the corners of the pillar finale

Uplighting would work well here too. Move the grasses out a bit but rememeber... grasses and lighting equal maint nightmare so consider a small shroud of copper sheet metal to keep the grasses out of your beams.