Contract/ or Not

[Pate]

Hey,
Its a silly Question but do most of you guys like working Res. with or with out contracts? I'm trying this year to start a 12 month equal pay option as I have really only had the As needed or just reg scheduled mowings the past 4-5 yrs.

Ive worked another job @ night while trying to get everything set up. I had my biggest yr in 07 and I'm ready to Go Full Time for myself. Any suggestions would be Greatly appreciated

Nc - Pate

[B_gerrits]

I think that it depends on you and your market. If your customers will sign contracts then that is the way to go. If your customers don't want to sign contracts and want to stay on a per cut agreement I would charge more per cut. In other words offer a discount to those who will agree on a 12 month program with a contract. I have a few customers who only want 1 time a month service and I only take them if I really need the work. This is where it depends on your situation if you have enough customers that will sign contracts and losing the ones that won't isn't a big deal then you can require one or no work.

[landscaper22]

Hey,
Its a silly Question but do most of you guys like working Res. with or with out contracts? I'm trying this year to start a 12 month equal pay option as I have really only had the As needed or just reg scheduled mowings the past 4-5 yrs.

Ive worked another job @ night while trying to get everything set up. I had my biggest yr in 07 and I'm ready to Go Full Time for myself. Any suggestions would be Greatly appreciated

Nc - Pate

Pate, Welcome! My experience has been that many residentials in my area shy away from written contracts. However, I really do push the year round monthly payment option. Most residentials that care about their properties will not have a problem with going year round and paying the same amount each month. I have been doing this 5 years and have only had one major problem with a year round customer not holding up to his end of the deal. And it was just a misunderstanding.
But I have a mixture of customers. Many pay on a monthly payment plan, and some pay per visit and are only seasonal. It really makes for a good mix for me. The year round ones are not as easy to come by as the seasonal pay per visit types. So, you just have to build your business up to where you want it to be. Of course now that my schedule is full, I really am more picky about the new customers I take on. I am only taking year-round accounts at this time.
But you do need to charge more per visit if they are seasonal or pay per visit. If they want service every two weeks, you really need to charge more, because I have found that these are the least profitable. But best of luck to you. It will feel great to be able to drop your other job and have your own business.

[Pate]

Thanks for your responses! I will Def take them both into Great Consideration. I want it to work and I'm sure its trial and error. HGopefully things will take off Like I envision them

Pate

[RickR1818]

Quick ? regarding residential contracts. I have informed my customers that I am going to this way of billing and almost all do not have a problem. My question to those that do this already is how do you work the contract out in terms of visits. I was going to figure price per mow X avg # of mows (28-30) and divide by # of months in season. But do you offer a reimbursement if you fail to mow certain # of times or charge extra if you mow more? What has been your best response from your customers? I just want to try to cover everything in case new customers have an issue.

[landscaper22]

Quick ? regarding residential contracts. I have informed my customers that I am going to this way of billing and almost all do not have a problem. My question to those that do this already is how do you work the contract out in terms of visits. I was going to figure price per mow X avg # of mows (28-30) and divide by # of months in season. But do you offer a reimbursement if you fail to mow certain # of times or charge extra if you mow more? What has been your best response from your customers? I just want to try to cover everything in case new customers have an issue.

Well some of my year-round accounts are different, but most get about 39 visits per year. That is if I service them every week for six months and every other week for the other six months out of any given year. I will offer a discount if for some reason I am unable to service when I should. But you should only have to charge extra if you provide extra services not included in the normal monthly service price.
Now with the discount, I deduct one visit from the bill if the property was scheduled to be serviced but for some reason was skipped for some reason. So take a property that I would charge $65-70 per visit for maintenance. I would probably give the customer a price of $225 per month. So, say in January I am scheduled to service the property 2 times, but because of bad weather, I only service it one time. The customer would be billed like $160 for that month. That is how I do it.

[shane mapes]

contract are the best way to go if you want to stay in bus. if you want to be able to up and leave at any time then go with no contract. i like to go with a contract if you can get the customer to sign. protects you both. good luck with your decision.....

[NC Greenscaper]

I have a few residentials that are on contracts. They are usually homeowners that don't reside in their homes (ie second home, temporary transfer). Contracts are the best for me because I have the revenue flowing all year. Also, seems easier to upsell items like weed control, mulch, fert. The cost for these items is spread through out the year. Just make sure you plan the number of visits and the contract is clear on what happens when extra visits are necessary. One mistake I have made is not including enough winter visits or leafs, because the contract was written in the spring/summer. Gary

[2 clowns mowing]

we sign up customers with agreements not contracts. they will sign an agreement every time. customer will think they are committed and won't sign with anyone else. we also do pre-pay monthly which works great. money up front.

[DaveinSWFL]

If you can't get them on contract then make sure you get them on a service agreement. I offer a basic service and a full service. With the basic (mow, whip & blow). Full service is yearly service that includes the basic plus weed control/round up, trimming shrubs & trees (that we can reach from the ground) & edging. Until I set this system up I had customers say you said you were going to do this and that. I have it in writing so there is no disputing. I just hand them there signed copy and say, would you like to upgrade to the full service? It's like going in for an oil change basic oil or the premium package? Give the cutomer the options.

[bigtex]

contracts dude, otherwise people will take advantage of you. say you've got 60 lawn accounts and may june and july are awsome, you keep busy every day and make money. then comes august and theres a dry spell. you can have 30 accounts call you and say (oh my lawn really doesnt need it, i'll see you next week). now you've got nothing to do and no $. its in the best interest of a landscape owner to have a contract it you want to stay in biz. and if people don't understand or won't sign then those people won't help your biz grow.

[B_gerrits]

contracts dude, otherwise people will take advantage of you. say you've got 60 lawn accounts and may june and july are awsome, you keep busy every day and make money. then comes august and theres a dry spell. you can have 30 accounts call you and say (oh my lawn really doesnt need it, i'll see you next week). now you've got nothing to do and no $. its in the best interest of a landscape owner to have a contract it you want to stay in biz. and if people don't understand or won't sign then those people won't help your biz grow.

I'm not really disagreeing with you if you can get contracts that is the way to go but lets say 30 of your cust won't sign a contract then you won't be getting their money may june and july then what?

[DaveinSWFL]

I agree. In a perfect world all my customers would be contracted. Reality is the majority are not interested in a contract. If you can get them on contract fantastic, if not I dont turn away the as need folks I just charge them more than I do my regular serviced customers.

[landscaper22]

[QUOTE=DaveinSWFL;2084848]If you can't get them on contract then make sure you get them on a service agreement. I offer a basic service and a full service. With the basic (mow, whip & blow). Full service is yearly service that includes the basic plus weed control/round up, trimming shrubs & trees (that we can reach from the ground) & edging. Until I set this system up I had customers say you said you were going to do this and that. I have it in writing so there is no disputing. I just hand them there signed copy and say, would you like to upgrade to the full service? It's like going in for an oil change basic oil or the premium package? Give the cutomer the options.[/QUOTE

Good advice. I guess really a service agreement is the same thing as a contract, but you really don't scare the customers with the word "contract". The whole point of the agreement is so both you and the customer understand what is expected form one another, and it leaves no room for the "I thought you were going to include this" junk. I don't see the point of forcing them in writing to a one year service contract, but I guess you could put in the agreement about an early termination clause. I just explain that since they are paying monthly, the costs are spread out over the entire year. If they use me for 3 months in the summer and decide to drop me, then I am losing money.
If I do signed agreements this year, which I am think about, I may put a clause that says you have a 30 day grace period where you can cancel with no penalty. But after that you have to pay like $100 early termination fee if you cancel service before the year is up. But for me, this type of thing would be too rare to worry about. I have had one problem in 5 years.
The biggest thing about the agreement is to clarify everything so there is no problems down the road.

[bigtex]

I agree. In a perfect world all my customers would be contracted. Reality is the majority are not interested in a contract. If you can get them on contract fantastic, if not I dont turn away the as need folks I just charge them more than I do my regular serviced customers.

so the (reality) is people would rather spend MORE of there paycheck not to have a contract ? i started with contracts about 5 years ago and didn't lose one. honestly. i guess it depends on what level your biz is at. if your a parttimer or new and alone there might be issues. but if your an established biz, and been around a few years they might be more accepted. also i'm in mass and a maintenance contracts for 8 months. not a big deal breaker.

[rjgolfer]

I am just starting mowing business this coming spring and trying to decide whether to use a contract. Bottom line it seems even with a "contract"...if the customer wants out they simply tell you not to come back an stop paying...contract or no contract. So seems to be a moot point to me. Depending on the termination provisions of the contract you might have a "legal" standing to sue but honestly are you going to sue some customer for breaking a mowing contract......??????
SO I am leaning toward NO CONTRACT as a "selling point". Simply a hand shake arrangement BUT I will have them sign on piece of paper that simply states WE agree on WHAT services I will provide..so no misunderstanding later.

[DaveinSWFL]

I think, especially here in Florida, the land of scam people are very, very leerry of contracts. We were struck by Hurricane Charley and thousands of people lost thousands of dollars to scam artists and were in contracts and they found out at least in my area that they were basically just a piece of paper. The courts didn't enforce them. My point is that I guess in your area of the country the contract might be binding. Here they are a joke and very hard to enforce and very few of my customers with the exception of commercial accounts are interested in signing one.

[topsites]

Save a tree, do it verbal.

[B_gerrits]

I think, especially here in Florida, the land of scam people are very, very leerry of contracts. We were struck by Hurricane Charley and thousands of people lost thousands of dollars to scam artists and were in contracts and they found out at least in my area that they were basically just a piece of paper. The courts didn't enforce them. My point is that I guess in your area of the country the contract might be binding. Here they are a joke and very hard to enforce and very few of my customers with the exception of commercial accounts are interested in signing one.

There it is other than documenting what services you will be providing I don't see what a contract really does for you. If a customer wants to discontinue service they will contract or not.

[Roger]

... Bottom line it seems even with a "contract"...if the customer wants out they simply tell you not to come back an stop paying...contract or no contract. So seems to be a moot point to me. Depending on the termination provisions of the contract you might have a "legal" standing to sue but honestly are you going to sue some customer for breaking a mowing contract......??????
...

I agree with this assessment. The context in this discussion, as I understand, are the tasks of mowing, trimming, mulching, and other menial tasks like these. The word "contract" gets thrown around on LS frequently. Most of the points LCOs say they include in their document hardly make it a contract. It has no legal points, rather merely a statement of understanding of the work. If somebody wishes to be clear with a customer on what is to be done/what not to be done, then a simple "statement of understanding," or "statement of services," would suffice. Any business person, or attorney seeing the documents being passed off as "contracts" or "service agreement," would only generate a laugh, nothing to be taken seriously.

I know I have been flamed out in other threads suggesting having an attorney who understands the applicable laws in your area, somebody who understands service agreements and how to navigate the legalities of artibration of those agreements upon dispute, ... and other like important items, be secured to draft a document. Somebody even called me "a sorry state" for needing to have a legal professional draft one. But, those examples posted on LS are often ones that only provide a false sense of protection.

As I stated before, if somebody is going to pay, they will pay with or without a document. If somebody wishes to skip out, they will skip out, with or without a document. The notion that a document is going to provide "protection" with a document that has no legal standing is wrong. When I have posed the question, "protection from what," the answers are in short supply.

I think that if I gave my customers a document to sign, the only question would be how far away would you hear the laughter.

If your business provides higher-ticket, more skilled, more detailed work, then the issue is far different. In those cases, I would wholeheartedly agree about having a legal document with a specific list of work to be done, payment schedule and terms, resolution of dispute, place of legal jurisdiction, etc.

[bigtex]

for me its got to do (SPECIFICALLY) with dates. my customers know that cutting starts exactly the first week of may and ends with the completion of the second week of october. weekly or biweekly with no exceptions. if a customer says in august, dont bother cutting it doesnt need it, i tell them thats fine but i'm gonna charge you for it per order of the agreement you signed in march (the begining of the season), i run a biz and have to maintain operating expenses regardless of the time of season, payroll, advertising, etc. and i've had this discussion MANY times every year with customers, and you know what, i always win BECAUSE people know its right. without a (menial )signature i wouldn't have a leg to stand on and every august i'd be taken 2 steps backwards trying to make ends meet ( $ ). now if it came down to the niddy griddy and a customer put up a big stink i'd just walk away, no problem and not worth my time, one person won't make or break me. BUT for the other 98% of the time by having a written signature it works in my favor and to me thats worth it. a homeowner isn't going to get involved with any (pain in the ass) possibilities for themselves, even if nothing was going to happen by me, legally.
contract, written service agreement, whatever, getting a signature can only help you.
oh ,and if you get laught at like Roger does, it might just be a personnel thing.

[landscaper22]

I agree with this assessment. The context in this discussion, as I understand, are the tasks of mowing, trimming, mulching, and other menial tasks like these. The word "contract" gets thrown around on LS frequently. Most of the points LCOs say they include in their document hardly make it a contract. It has no legal points, rather merely a statement of understanding of the work. If somebody wishes to be clear with a customer on what is to be done/what not to be done, then a simple "statement of understanding," or "statement of services," would suffice. Any business person, or attorney seeing the documents being passed off as "contracts" or "service agreement," would only generate a laugh, nothing to be taken seriously.

I know I have been flamed out in other threads suggesting having an attorney who understands the applicable laws in your area, somebody who understands service agreements and how to navigate the legalities of artibration of those agreements upon dispute, ... and other like important items, be secured to draft a document. Somebody even called me "a sorry state" for needing to have a legal professional draft one. But, those examples posted on LS are often ones that only provide a false sense of protection.

As I stated before, if somebody is going to pay, they will pay with or without a document. If somebody wishes to skip out, they will skip out, with or without a document. The notion that a document is going to provide "protection" with a document that has no legal standing is wrong. When I have posed the question, "protection from what," the answers are in short supply.

I think that if I gave my customers a document to sign, the only question would be how far away would you hear the laughter.

If your business provides higher-ticket, more skilled, more detailed work, then the issue is far different. In those cases, I would wholeheartedly agree about having a legal document with a specific list of work to be done, payment schedule and terms, resolution of dispute, place of legal jurisdiction, etc.

I think you are right on the money! I can't believe others on LS would think that was a bad idea. I am with you. When you are servicing simple residential type accounts all of that is not necessary. But when you start doing major industrial/commercial accounts, large neighborhood associations, maybe even government contract work it would be a great idea for a lawyer to draw up a contract for you. A lawyer would have all kinds or small details in the document.
But as I have been saying all along with residential accounts there is no point in an actual "legal contract". It is pointless for reasons already stated in this thread. A simple agreement would be great for this. All you are doing is covering your butt with it, and preventing confusion. This is probably all you would need in small claims court for someone that will not pay for services and you decide to take them to court. But again, if a customers does not want me to service their property any more, then I can't do much about that.
Even most actual legal contracts also can be terminated somehow. It is not a do or die type situation. And why would you even want to fight to continue servicing a property when the owner does not want you to?

[B_gerrits]

Lco is quite different depending on you location. Here in spring and fall it is extremely busy. For me in fall my yards take more time to do because of leaves this increase balances out in the winter because things don't grow as much and it balances out. If a cust starts saying they don't need service in the winter then I am hosed out of the extra time required in the fall.

[hackitdown]

Strictly verbal for me on all maintenace. Works fine for me. I save endless hours. I don't feel like I am risking much of anything.

But I do write up any kind of installation work where I buy materials, and the customer pays part up front. Makes me feel better.

[landscaper22]

Lco is quite different depending on you location. Here in spring and fall it is extremely busy. For me in fall my yards take more time to do because of leaves this increase balances out in the winter because things don't grow as much and it balances out. If a cust starts saying they don't need service in the winter then I am hosed out of the extra time required in the fall.

I agree with what you are saying, as I was saying something similar earlier in this thread. I just tell the customers what you said before I begin service. If they agree to year-round service for a flat monthly fee, and they drop me in the winter, I will not come back in the spring. I will also have a few choice words for them. But still if the customer no longer wants your service, contract or not, there is not much you can do.

[B_gerrits]

I agree with what you are saying, as I was saying something similar earlier in this thread. I just tell the customers what you said before I begin service. If they agree to year-round service for a flat monthly fee, and they drop me in the winter, I will not come back in the spring. I will also have a few choice words for them. But still if the customer no longer wants your service, contract or not, there is not much you can do.

Once again you are right. I always enjoy reading your posts. I have yet to find one that I disagree with but then again 32 years old with a BS degree means you are with a good amount of wisdom.

[landscaper22]

Many will disagree with me, but thanks for the kind words anyway. I just try to give my humble opinion on certain issues.

[topsites]

The problem I have, and this is likely my one thing we'll never see eye to eye on...
Wth do you folks mean by, when we have a dry spell and they call?

You telling me you're cutting grass when it's 100 degrees and we haven't seen rain in a month?!
Even if we have rain, grass does not grow as fast Jul-Aug, there's no way!

So you're just running blades over thin air?
Get outta here :laugh:

I'm saying...
You can't cut lawn that hasn't grown...!
First the customers would get irate regardless of contract, second you don't do that in middle of summer.
In 90+ degree weather you cut grass too often and you kill their lawn, ain't nobody going to tell me that it doesn't, and nobody is going to convince me that customers in general are too stupid to realize what's doing it.... So what now, you ruin their lawn so that come September you can sell them a complete restoration? Come on guys, that might fly with a few brain dead folks out there but in my book that's first no way to run a business, second I just know too many customers would wise up so fast.

Then, the payola, how can I get paid fairly when there's hardly any work in Jul-Aug but a TON of work Apr-May?
What am I supposed to do, average the rates out?

Say for instance it's 1000 bucks for the year, make it $100 / month for 10 months?
Yeah right, then I collect the least in spring, meaning Apr-May when it is busiest I hardly get paid, then they call last week in June and cancel so I never get to even out come summer, now how's that not being took advantage of?
Contract or not they can cancel, you can't tell me they're so stuck with you lol.

Either way if they want to cancel or take advantage of you, I am sorry but I don't foresee a piece of paper slowing them kind of folks down, I really don't.

Hell if a mark on their credit record doesn't get deadbeats to pay :laugh:

All you have to do is bank your money, save it when times are good so you can survive the drought, same as for winter.

As for the fools who like to cancel end of summer?
Those are the same jerks who call right when the temps first ping 90!
Watch your phone, anyone calls around late May-June is one of those that only needs you for when it's really hot outside.
Seriously, go look at the thermometer every day as it warms up, I GUARANTEE you'll get a few asking for 'season-round' service the very DAY the temps hit 90, not sure why 90 but that's the magic temp lol.


So ...
I'm verbal, pay per service, by how much work got done.
Few customers have ever insisted they wanted otherwise...

[topsites]

Come to think of it (it cut me off lol)...

Look, a jerk customer calls a contract-based Lco first thing in spring, that Lco busts their tail as the grass grows like wild, then OOOPS soon as the temps hit 90 they call and cancel: Now they done got all that work out of them at 'averaged' rates, and soon as it warms up they know the grass ain't gonna grow much so they cancel and laugh their tail off, because that Lco done cut their grass 8-10 times for 2-300 and was just waiting for summer to make up for that but now (s)he can't ...

How do you get out of that, a 30-day notice?
Fine, I'm sure that can be gotten around, just call when the temps hit 85, and cancel.
Or maybe it's 80, whatever, they know how to work 30 days from the day it gets HOT out there, no?

But wait, it gets better.

Then they call a guy like me, hey yeah I need season-round service.
But, ooops, one problem:
Yeah see this ain't my first rodeo so I either don't bother, or I quote kinda high, at least 5 bucks extra for the heat factor.
Ohhh, yeah, never mind I always hear them say, gee...

Actually I wouldn't mind it too bad even at regular price, except they ALWAYS cancel right as soon as things cool off a bit, yup, come September these are the guys whose lawn has miraculously stopped growing.
It's a sure thing, the very day the temps hit 90 I ALWAYS get 1-2 phone calls, it's always the same thing.

Not sure what they do after they cancel with me, other than I don't get many of these anymore.
Matter of fact you don't call me first thing in spring and I probably don't want you as a customer, how I play.

All you gotta do is watch that thermometer come late May- mid June thou, watch that and see how the phone rings.

Boils down to pre-screening, I always say, watch out for those patterns.
It works out.

[B_gerrits]

You telling me you're cutting grass when it's 100 degrees and we haven't seen rain in a month?!
Even if we have rain, grass does not grow as fast Jul-Aug, there's no way!

So you're just running blades over thin air?
Get outta here :laugh:

I'm saying...
You can't cut lawn that hasn't grown...!
First the customers would get irate regardless of contract, second you don't do that in middle of summer.
In 90+ degree weather you cut grass too often and you kill their lawn, ain't nobody going to tell me that it doesn't, and nobody is going to convince me that customers in general are too stupid to realize what's doing it.... So what now, you ruin their lawn so that come September you can sell them a complete restoration? Come on guys, that might fly with a few brain dead folks out there but in my book that's first no way to run a business, second I just know too many customers would wise up so fast.

Then, the payola, how can I get paid fairly when there's hardly any work in Jul-Aug but a TON of work Apr-May?
What am I supposed to do, average the rates out?

Say for instance it's 1000 bucks for the year, make it $100 / month for 10 months?
Yeah right, then I collect the least in spring, meaning Apr-May when it is busiest I hardly get paid, then they call last week in June and cancel so I never get to even out come summer, now how's that not being took advantage of?
Contract or not they can cancel, you can't tell me they're so stuck with you lol.

Either way if they want to cancel or take advantage of you, I am sorry but I don't foresee a piece of paper slowing them kind of folks down, I really don't.

Hell if a mark on their credit record doesn't get deadbeats to pay :laugh:

All you have to do is bank your money, save it when times are good so you can survive the drought, same as for winter.

As for the fools who like to cancel end of summer?
Those are the same jerks who call right when the temps first ping 90!
Watch your phone, anyone calls around late May-June is one of those that only needs you for when it's really hot outside.
Seriously, go look at the thermometer every day as it warms up, I GUARANTEE you'll get a few asking for 'season-round' service the very DAY the temps hit 90, not sure why 90 but that's the magic temp lol.


So ...
I'm verbal, pay per service, by how much work got done.
Few customers have ever insisted they wanted otherwise...

A lot of what you say just proves my point LCO is different in different areas. here the weather doesn't get real hot for prolonged periods of times and when it does most custs have sprinklers. I have a buddy here and with him it is an all or nothing deal you either agree to have him year round and he shows up whether you think your lawn needs to be done or not or he will not service your lawn period. Me I am less fortunate I get a lot more pay by service people I even have have some that only want services once a month.

[DaveinSWFL]

Here in SW Florida I service 70% of my customers weekly, year round and they do need cut weekly. We have water restrictions so they are only SUPPOSE to water 1 time a week. If I didn't cut once a week it would be a jungle. My other 30% no irrigation. They are cut every 6-8 weeks. You right location is a factor. In North Florida the grass is probably not growing as fast.

[bigtex]

A lot of what you say just proves my point LCO is different in different areas. here the weather doesn't get real hot for prolonged periods of times and when it does most custs have sprinklers. I have a buddy here and with him it is an all or nothing deal you either agree to have him year round and he shows up whether you think your lawn needs to be done or not or he will not service your lawn period. Me I am less fortunate I get a lot more pay by service people I even have have some that only want services once a month.

thats right, up here in mass last summer i think we maybe had a total of 8 days above 90, for the WHOLE year.