Flowable fill again

[STL Ponds and Waterfalls]

Has anyone heard of using FF for a retaining wall base in addition to an aggregate base for added base strength? Maybe using it for a patio base for added strength(thicker base)? What about using it for an over dig on new homes? Since I'm primarly a one man band I'd like to use this stuff as much as possible. This could be a good base alternative for flagstone patio's and such.
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[merrimacmill]

Paver Pete was telling us as the techo showcase that it can be used solely as the base for a wall. Just fill the trench, it self levels, then if any block on the first course needs adjustment just scrape the flowable fill down with a flat shovel a little till it sits right. I was a bit shocked watching the videos of this going on as I've never seen it done like this or even heard of doing it this way.

You can watch the videos of them doing this right on the techo bloc youtube channel.

Does anyone else have any experience/input on this method? What about heavy freeze thaw climates like up here in MA?

[SVA_Concrete]

Flow fill will not level its self.

I have not used it for patios and the like because of the material cost..... however, we have used it to fill a porch that needed 20 yards of fill with no access, we were able to pump it very easily.

If you do start using flow fill... there are various strengths... as well as some mixes are pump-able and some are not pump-able.

[DVS Hardscaper]

In our area, flowable fill is expensive. The cost does not justify it's use. Not only the material cost, but getting it to the backyard of a home with a lawn, trees, fencing, etc., is another issue. Pump truck. Factor in all the logistics and it's just not feasable.

To this day we have never used flowable fill.

To put the pricing in prospective:

We had a client with water coming into her basement. Her concrete steps leading down to the basement had a void under them that was allowing a stream to flow under the steps. The remedy was to pour concrete under the steps. I was all set to go with flowable fill.......till I found out the cost!!! What I did is we ended up going with footer mix and we watered it down when it came off the truck. Our watering it down made it "flowable". My theory of putting concrete under the steps worked magic, and the lady has a dry basement.


What good 'ol paver pete doesn't account for is the cost of the flowable fill and how easy / hard is it to get it from the curb to the work zone.



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[STL Ponds and Waterfalls]

I still have not used FF for a lot of the reasons DVS stated, but I would still like to try it out on a job that is easily accessable with a good budget. If anyone knows how to attain one of these jobs let me know. :laugh:

I'm still curious as to how this would work on a new home build when access is there and the homeowner wants a new patio right away.

[merrimacmill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuCxyJRb098

[SVA_Concrete]

In our area, flowable fill is expensive. The cost does not justify it's use. Not only the material cost, but getting it to the backyard of a home with a lawn, trees, fencing, etc., is another issue. Pump truck. Factor in all the logistics and it's just not feasable.

To this day we have never used flowable fill.

To put the pricing in prospective:

We had a client with water coming into her basement. Her concrete steps leading down to the basement had a void under them that was allowing a stream to flow under the steps. The remedy was to pour concrete under the steps. I was all set to go with flowable fill.......till I found out the cost!!! What I did is we ended up going with footer mix and we watered it down when it came off the truck. Our watering it down made it "flowable". My theory of putting concrete under the steps worked magic, and the lady has a dry basement.


What good 'ol paver pete doesn't account for is the cost of the flowable fill and how easy / hard is it to get it from the curb to the work zone.



,


This post doesn't make since.

1. flow fill should be about 25 dollars per yard cheaper than a footing mix

2. what is the difference wheel burrn' flow fill versus gravel? the flow fill goes straight into the wheel burr out of the truck.

[DVS Hardscaper]

Sva - you just made a blanket statement. maybe where you're at ff is $25 less.


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[SVA_Concrete]

I didn't say that is IS... I said it SHOULD be.

think about the ingredients in flow fill vs a footing mix.

a flow fill mix is generally less than 300 psi and therefore far less cement content per yard.

what makes it more expensive in your area? are you confusing flowable fill with grout?

[DVS Hardscaper]

SVA - I call for pricing. Dude gives me numbers. Me and my board of directors at Hardscape HeadQuarters sit down and we spend 3 hrs discussing the numbers so that we can make important corporate decisions.


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[joes169]

I didn't say that is IS... I said it SHOULD be.

think about the ingredients in flow fill vs a footing mix.

a flow fill mix is generally less than 300 psi and therefore far less cement content per yard.

what makes it more expensive in your area? are you confusing flowable fill with grout?

I wouldn't bother arguing with him, as I've tried to about this same subject in the past and got no where. Apparently, either he lives in the only place in the US where aggregate costs more than cement, or he's confused. I doubt he'll ever admit if it is the latter....................

We poured about 150 yards of 1000 psi slurry last year on a single project. The cost was about 60-70% of a 4000 psi mix just as it has always been every time I've used it in the last 12 years.............

[DVS Hardscaper]

I wouldn't bother arguing with him, as I've tried to about this same subject in the past and got no where. Apparently, either he lives in the only place in the US where aggregate costs more than cement, or he's confused. I doubt he'll ever admit if it is the latter....................





No need for nastyness Joe.

We're in limestone country, aggregate is probably cheaper hear than anywhere else.

I simply shared my experience about price. Me experience. Not my theory.

There is nothing to argue about, nor anything to admit, the guy gave me prices, not once but two different occasions :) This was from a supplier outside of Wash DC.

Something else to consider in terms of hardscaping - Flowable fill is said to be messy in terms of filling a raised patio. It runs out the joints of the block.

[SVA_Concrete]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuCxyJRb098

if the flow fill self leveled he would not have to move the truck :)


water self levels, flowable fill-- not so much.


all though it did appear that that fill had a fritz pak or the like in it.

[joes169]

No need for nastyness Joe.

We're in limestone country, aggregate is probably cheaper hear than anywhere else.

I simply shared my experience about price. Me experience. Not my theory.

There is nothing to argue about, nor anything to admit, the guy gave me prices, not once but two different occasions :) This was from a supplier outside of Wash DC.

Something else to consider in terms of hardscaping - Flowable fill is said to be messy in terms of filling a raised patio. It runs out the joints of the block.

Sorry if I came off nasty, it just doesn't make any sense that aggregate would ever cost more than cement. There's a lot of other factors, other than cement, that result in slurry/flowable fill be far cheaper than a 3-5000 psi concrete.

[Murphy's Law]

I had the same experience with flowable fill pricing as DVS. Up here in NH it was 25% more than a 3000lb mix. That was 2 years ago to the month. Didn't use it. The following month, I was on a project where another contractor was filling in an old vault (basement under a sidewalk in old cities.) He didn't check the prices until after he was awarded the job. He shook his head the whole time the flowable fill was flowing. He told me he lost $ on that portion of the job by not checking numbers first.

[neversatisfiedj]

It is expensive in MD. Why not use 3000 lb mix ?

[cutbetterthanyou]

subscribed.......

[merrimacmill]

What about labor savings in the base prep of the wall while using flowable fill? At what point do those savings outweigh the additional cost of using flowable fill?

[joes169]

Can someone in the Northeast ask a ready-mix supplier why slurry costs more than concrete? Just for my own curiousity........