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topsites
01-05-2008, 10:42 PM
My blower today lost all compression, at least that's what it felt like as it shut down, then tried to start it and it would just freewheel...

The spark plug checked out fine, nothing wrong there, wasn't loose.

So I pulled the valve cover off, figuring if a rocker had come loose and valves were open.
Nope, all that looked good, they still moved properly when turning the engine.

Pulled the cylinder head off next, figuring if the gasket was leaking.
And here is where it gets tricky, tricky...

When turning the engine, the piston no longer moves up and down on its own, thou I can still push it down manually, then when cranking the engine it pushes the piston up a bit, and there it stays.

Now...
Before I dismount this engine so I can tear into it, does anyone think it would be easier to just buy a new blower, or is it worth it, for $900 cost, to tear it apart?
Everything has to be taken off, starting with the shroud, I may not have to pull the impeller but the engine has to come off the frame... Likely looking at 3-4 maybe 5-6 hours until I can get a good peek inside...

Just wondering what I should do...
So if anyone has ever torn one apart, some feedback would likely be appreciated.

Restrorob
01-05-2008, 11:07 PM
I may not have to pull the impeller

If you want to look inside the engine the impeller must come off, You didn't mention how old or what shape this unit is in ? If it's in good shape why buy a new complete unit if just a engine replacement would get it back up running ?

I could probably have this engine opened in less than a hour, Maybe 2/3 for a novice keeping at it. If you have nothing better to do (off season) rip it open then install a new engine if needed.

GravelyNut
01-06-2008, 12:37 AM
Broken rod, broken piston pin, broken piston. Any of those are replaceable for less than the $900. Even if you had to go oversize and a honing job. Only when the cylinder is badly damaged, or the crankshaft, does it start looking more economical to replace than rebuild.

topsites
01-06-2008, 03:28 AM
Ok, that's about what I decided was to rip into it, worst case scenario I'm out some time, I think something just came off down at the rod end, could be just a nut worked its way loose too but there's no telling until I get in there.

The unit is 6 years old and works decent, but this briggs engine gives me trouble every single season, soon as I get it working it runs great but sure enough at least once / season this crap!

I've rebuilt the carb (twice), replaced coil, ignition switch (at least once), throttle cable (twice), cylinder head gasket, installed inline fuel filter, who knows what else but that's on top of the usual spark plugs / air filter etc... Half the reason it still looks good is because just about every single thing has been replaced at least one time lol...

Not that I'd expect it to run forever, but 6 years is no age to me, not for this kind of recurring trouble, I'd say it ran good for a whole 2 seasons out of 6, it runs all right most of the time but sure enough it always has to start with me.

I guess it was just something I see coming now, few more repairs like this and it's over but I'll deal with it this one time.
I know one thing, I am never getting anything with another briggs again, they're just not built for it, and I might reconsider Billy Goat as well.

Roger
01-06-2008, 06:59 AM
What kind of B&S engine? Is it an OHV or a side-valve?

I have an 8hp B&S on my Lesco blower. Probably like yours, it does not run many total hours per season, but when I need it, I expect it to run well every day. Mine is a simple side-valve engine. But, for the number of hours, many things have been replaced (e.g. muffler, muffler bolts, brackets, shroud bolts have come out needing replacing, starter recoil assembly problems). In proportion to the number of service hours, and the items replaced, the B&S is well down on the list for reliability.

These engines are of marginal quality for this application. There is a balance between a piece of equipment that sits much of the year, but is expected to be reliable when needed, an engine that is down on the list of cost, vs. a more expensive engine that sits idle so much of the year, but works very well when put into service. If I was to use the blower every day, or every other day, throughout the season, I would never buy one with this kind of engine.

topsites
01-06-2008, 10:41 AM
OHV Intek, but what you said is exactly my take on it, not worth the savings in trouble over time, even on a part-time machine.

Which is why I was considering replacing the whole blower, because by the time I put a Kohler or a Honda or something in it the cost is close... But then I just got done replacing our hot water heater, one mower and one car is down, the other car needs a new roof (convertible), every vehicle needs State inspection done and insurance is due before spring too, oh I just got started, the list goes on :laugh:

In just a few weeks I'll have the time so I'll just save the 900 for now.
Thanks for all the input, that really helped!

topsites
01-06-2008, 04:47 PM
More fun stuff...

Because on a 4-cycle engine there is the issues with TDC, I didn't see a mark on the camshaft...?

And Wth is this rod go to?
Sorry not the best pic because of the flash, that rod on the red rag, almost looks like a pushrod that goes to a car... Maybe it is, but...
The flash distorted it, it's straight as an arrow and equal thickness all along, outer aluminum cover with rounded steel ends.

Restrorob
01-06-2008, 06:55 PM
That is the push-rod that runs from the cam tappet to the rocker arm, That along with the other one would be installed after the engine is closed up and head re-installed. Loosen the rocker adjusters to install them.

The plastic cam gear will have a mark on it such as this "^" pointing at a recessed tooth on the cam gear, This ^ will align with a dot stamped in the crank gear.

We have talked about finding TDC compression stroke in the past, If you don't remember I will go over it again.

Roger
01-06-2008, 08:18 PM
This project looks pretty serious, ... a heavy mallet, and a broken Gator blade. Is this the stuff of which broken engines are made?

topsites
01-06-2008, 10:00 PM
That is the push-rod that runs from the cam tappet to the rocker arm, That along with the other one would be installed after the engine is closed up and head re-installed. Loosen the rocker adjusters to install them.

The plastic cam gear will have a mark on it such as this "^" pointing at a recessed tooth on the cam gear, This ^ will align with a dot stamped in the crank gear.

We have talked about finding TDC compression stroke in the past, If you don't remember I will go over it again.

Yeah it is a push rod, I found the other one, silly me.

The only plastic gear I see is the governor actuator, I think all the rest are steel, but I'll take another look at it tomorrow... As you said, an hour flat that engine was off and apart, much beyond that I didn't feel like it so I let it all sit.

The other consideration I am going to see, if for 4-500 I can just replace the engine... Because it tore that connecting rod to shreds, and it was down to maybe a pint of crude black oil, I'm just concerned it might've done more damage.

Then I might also get new rings and re-hone, probably run me 1-200 that way and yeah I'll probably need some assistance with TDC compression... I do know something about it, which is my concern... Specifically the crank turns twice per spark, once on the intake-compression stroke, again for the ignition-exhaust part, but the flywheel only actuates the magneto once so it is very important to be on the TDC of compression- TO -ignition or else the camshaft is off 1/2 turn or what have you and it won't work.
But before we get into this explanation I'll take more precise pics for that.

This project looks pretty serious, ... a heavy mallet, and a broken Gator blade. Is this the stuff of which broken engines are made?

LOL, actually that Gator blade is just a flat piece of steel I use to drive bearings, it's an old blade and sometimes I cut them apart when I need a flat piece of steel... The middle section of that blade was used as a 'bridge' to weld my tiller's frame back together a year or so ago heheh

Old blades are great, I was surprised at the uses for those 1/4" thick pieces of steel, an older gentleman taught me that trick.

Yup, hold that blade flush flat on top of a bearing and smack it with the big hammer, works great for those things where a wooden block or a rubber mallet just isn't enough. It's still hard on the bearing, but its much better than a steel mallet straight.

newz7151
01-07-2008, 12:26 AM
The other consideration I am going to see, if for 4-500 I can just replace the engine... Because it tore that connecting rod to shreds, and it was down to maybe a pint of crude black oil, I'm just concerned it might've done more damage.



Or, SB it. You're already doing all the labor yourself anyway.

topsites
01-08-2008, 09:46 AM
Here's the end result:

The crankshaft took a beating, too, I didn't even see that, the piston has a crack in it, all in all I would need $200+ just in parts... Connecting rod, piston, rings, a honing tool, crankshaft, a gasket set.

Still there's no telling, I have to take the other end apart to replace the crank and then I might find more damage, either way at least 1-2 hours labor, for me probably more like 3-4, who knows...

Then there's no absolute guarantee it will run, there's a sure possibility that 2-300 in parts and 100 or so in labor hours later the engine still don't run... Or it runs for 10-20 hours or just long enough for me to put it all back together :cry:

So I'm just going to order another engine for right under 500, keep the old one for parts and be done with it.

Restrorob
01-08-2008, 05:57 PM
Tops,

This question is screaming to be asked !

I can't help but notice how black the oil is in that side cover, Is that the same synthetic oil you plug on here all the time ?

Also, How often do you change it ?

Not trying to be a smart A here just compiling information.


Did you check into a shortblock for this engine as newz suggested, Could save you a couple hundred....

topsites
01-09-2008, 12:50 AM
As for short blocks, I can't find one for under 400...
I just get one 500 for the whole thing, shipping and all, it don't get no cheaper than S.E.W.

But yes, that's synthetic blend, it was just changed in October, maybe late September, could be...

Shouldn't have been low, should not have turned black, not that kind of black.
Not in that short a time, it was down to maybe 1/2 a pint or so.
Likely the rings were leaking, all I can figure.

I just remembered, I did check it once and it was super low.
And I couldn't remember if it had 5w-30 or 10w-30 in it, so I let it go.
Figured if it blew it was time for a new blower.
Did 2-3 maybe 4 more jobs with it.
Didn't figure I might be short on cash :laugh:

I didn't think synthetic ever failed, not even running dry.
5 years of pushing engines hard core to the limits it took to burn one.
That's an original engine that's been with me since day one, and I ran dino that first year.

But that's how much trust I put in synthetic, now I'll be a little more careful but there's still no comparison to dino.

qwerty
01-11-2008, 03:05 AM
I didn't think synthetic ever failed, not even running dry.


I like the blind faith, but I wouldn't suggest sticking with it.

steve5966
01-24-2008, 05:16 PM
This is from topsites in another thread.

I change my oil once / season, I check it when I feel like it, and I run it till she blows.
Which way is cheaper?

Here's my math:
Synthetic oil and filter and 1/2 hour once / year: $50 dollars.
Run it till she burns up: ~$100 / year, the cheap ones last 4-5-6 years, the good ones 8-10.
So, about 150 a year + the labor, say 1-2 hours dealing with it = 250 a year.

That's just how I figure it, costs me 4-6-700 for a new engine and an hour or two labor to replace it.
Cost of oil at 5 a quart + 1 filter, new engine every 6-8 or 9 years.

If I did things your way I would be out 15 hours a year in labor = $900 dollars, haven't even figured the cost of the oil.
Assuming 25 quarts at $2 each + $3 filter x 25 = $125 a year there, not counting the labor.

But at $60 an hour I just don't got time for it.



Now you have a blown motor an no money to replace it. A little care and attention to your equipment and you wouldn't have this problem.

topsites
01-26-2008, 10:52 AM
Now you have a blown motor an no money to replace it. A little care and attention to your equipment and you wouldn't have this problem.

Actually what ticked me off is everyone local wants 6-700+ for this engine, heck they wanted dang near 4-500 for the short block!
And no I don't have that kind of money, not for no briggs... I would hardly pay that much for a Kohler, maybe a kawasaki, maybe.

But some long and hard looking I got my new 10hp Intek Pro in today, $391 I paid for it, +shipping ran me just over 425.
And that's about right, a 10hp briggs should run about 400 dollars, new, in box, long block.
I was tempted getting the 13hp Kohler for 500, but I wasn't sure it would fit, the block is noticeably bigger.

And I still have to put it in, thinking about doing that here shortly.

The other problem is, Briggs makes it difficult not listing the oil capacity for their engines...
I found it, eventually, but it was at least as much fun as getting the model number.
Run an engine low on dino and see how long it lasts, I'd be surprised if one job doesn't wreck it...
But I'll pay more attention to the levels, now that I know how much it takes in the first place.

Jay Ray
01-26-2008, 02:01 PM
The other problem is, Briggs makes it difficult not listing the oil capacity for their engines... I found it, eventually, but it was at least as much fun as getting the model number.

We all have lots of engines and this is critical info. After 50 hours I always have to get the manual out and look it up because I got Kawi, Kohler, and Briggs of various sizes and sure can't remember from 50 hours ago. I guess they don't put it on the shroud because the average person walking into Sears might think it a bad thing if the equip they were looking at took two quarts instead on one.

You did good on that engine.

topsites
01-26-2008, 04:37 PM
We all have lots of engines and this is critical info. After 50 hours I always have to get the manual out and look it up because I got Kawi, Kohler, and Briggs of various sizes and sure can't remember from 50 hours ago. I guess they don't put it on the shroud because the average person walking into Sears might think it a bad thing if the equip they were looking at took two quarts instead on one.

You did good on that engine.

Thanks man, but it's not just the price, I just got done installing the Intek Pro and took pictures...
Both are 10hp so I'm sure there is little if any difference in power, but it's a way better engine.

Like with the oil, no argument about what you speak of, but look at these pics the Intek Pro has a friggin' dipstick (omg imagine that LOL)... No, my old one did not have a dipstick, you couldn't just "check the oil" anytime without tools! Also I think you can see it there's a wire down at the bottom that is an LOS (Low Oil Shutdown), and there's more but just for starters and critical components this in itself, at least the dipstick ought to be standard, but it really made it worth the while.

To be honest I had found the actual model this blower takes, and I wasn't 100% sure this one would fit but the dimensions and shaft were the same, it was the dipstick that sold it... At the time I didn't know what LOS meant (some folks call it Low Oil Start), but that was a really nice bonus as well.

From looking at it now I probably would have got that 13hp Kohler to fit, but oh well, might have been too much power too.

The air filter on this one is way better than the old one, on the previous engine it was always a royal PITA to get the air filter cover / assembly off as it came off towards the back where the black handlebars are... I must've stripped more than one of those screws, got to the point I almost would use a hammer... Now this one the air filter comes up and off, real nice and easy and no tools required, I like that a lot.

Why didn't Billy Goat use this engine in the first place :laugh:

The gas cap is right! Woo-hoo this one seats like they should, the old one I'm not sure what the problem was but some mfg nonsense and it would always crack the cap. This is probably an improvement from briggs, very nice, I like it.

I did have to remove and re-position the recoil as the rope was pointing the wrong way, no biggie.
The throttle was stationary, this required some adjustment to make it loose, also not bad.

My only complaint is still no inline fuel filters, and on this one I couldn't rig one in there...
I suppose I could've re-used the I/C's air filter but no way I'm going through that nonsense again, and maybe if I had tried some more but...

Anyhow, a lot less vibration and restored power, I like it:

Landrus2
01-26-2008, 06:10 PM
I would replace the motor with a Honda engine.
Donít be fooling around with engine parts, itís not worth the money you are going to put in that engine.:drinkup:

Jay Ray
01-26-2008, 10:26 PM
Looks almost like a new unit. Didn't know you could get LOS except on the Vanguard. That is very good to have.

lwcmattlifter
01-27-2008, 08:59 PM
I would replace the motor with a Honda engine.
Donít be fooling around with engine parts, itís not worth the money you are going to put in that engine.:drinkup:

+1 to that. The cranks and rods on those Briggs engines can't stand up to the mass of blower fans. With walk behind blowers it's always worth the extra 100 or 150 to go with a Honda, Robin/Subaru is a close second.