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SOUTHERNGREENSCAPES
01-06-2008, 11:31 PM
I am looking for some form of outdoor lighting to hand from a pergola and shine down onto a outdoor kitchen.

Does anyone out there make an outdoor or low voltage track lighting or similar? If you have websites, that would be most helpful.

Thanks, John

Pro-Scapes
01-06-2008, 11:44 PM
pics pls :)

Just something to consider you might be best off with downlights as you can usually conceal them better than a track plus your not limited to a linear installation pattern.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-07-2008, 12:33 AM
I have yet to find an outdoor rated track light system and believe me I have looked all over the world. Last year I came up with an idea to have a 100% copper track lighting system built for use in dry outdoor spaces (Gazebos, Screen Rooms, Terraces, etc) but it has not gone far.

I would think that you can find many different types of small scale, LV downlights that would mount to a pergola and achieve the look you are after AND look attractive during the day. Send us some photos and I'm sure you will get lots of suggestions.

Have a great day.

Eden Lights
01-07-2008, 12:35 AM
I am looking for some form of outdoor lighting to hand from a pergola and shine down onto a outdoor kitchen.

Does anyone out there make an outdoor or low voltage track lighting or similar? If you have websites, that would be most helpful.

Thanks, John

What lamp source are you wanting to use? Why are you thinking track?

Eden Lights
01-07-2008, 12:50 AM
I like MR of choice with full shrouds for sink, grill, and counter tops. This project has that with phantom lighting strips all the way around the cove and under the granite counter top which downlights the stone, and AR GBF lamps in HK fixtures downlighting the columns and tables.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-07-2008, 12:58 AM
How do you like the fit, finish, performance, etc of those HK fixtures? I saw them at Lightfair and was pretty impressed with them but have no experience with them in the field.

At the time I was going through a horrible experience with BK and their leaking nightstars and deltastars. (Something that never got resolved so I dumped them) Just before seeing the HK line I found the Vision3 line and was very impressed with those fixtures (they are former BK engineers that got miffed and left, then perfected the line that they had originally invented and developed.... lawsuits are pending)

In any case, I would like to hear your thoughts and experiences with HK.

Thanks.

Eden Lights
01-07-2008, 01:54 AM
How do you like the fit, finish, performance, etc of those HK fixtures? I saw them at Lightfair and was pretty impressed with them but have no experience with them in the field.

At the time I was going through a horrible experience with BK and their leaking nightstars and deltastars. (Something that never got resolved so I dumped them) Just before seeing the HK line I found the Vision3 line and was very impressed with those fixtures (they are former BK engineers that got miffed and left, then perfected the line that they had originally invented and developed.... lawsuits are pending)

In any case, I would like to hear your thoughts and experiences with HK.

Thanks.

The HK line has excellent fit and performance, as far as finish it is about like BK but not as strong as Lumiere. (Easily scratched) It is water tight and the socket is still servicable, which is the only one like it that I know of? (Socket is not sealed in) As you found out the BK delta and nightstar is a open stem with a sealed socket cavity which makes it a uplight only in my book. Shielding system and various cap designs make the HK line very superior to all others in that area. Knuckle lock down is about like BK, but nothing like the Lumiere patented design. We have several ZX series HK's downlighting from trees and haven't seen any water in one yet. If it wasn't for Quality problems (canted sockets) I still think Lumiere has the best fixture out there bar none, but I haven't bought any in a couple of years. I am not a big fan of knock offs, so I never paid alot of attention to the V3 or Winscape copy of the BK line. If I could sell them to everyone I would only install the HK ZX line with Shirley's tri-spike stake and Kim KLV215's on the same stake, that would cover 70+% of my fixture useage.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-07-2008, 02:05 AM
Thanks for that review... I used to use Lumiere 203's a lot but got pissed off with their sockets, and the bad batch of SS knuckle screws that had the hex head breaking off. I then went to the BK line but they really do suck as a tree mounted downlight what with all the water ingress through the stem and the shroud set screw, and their lack of willingness to acknowledge the problem.

Since using the CAST treelight for the past couple of years I have become attached to the long shroud. You cannot see any glare from those things. Does HK offer an extended angular shroud for glare elimination?

Check out the Vision3 line, I think you might be very impressed. I wouldnt call them knock offs really, as they are vastly better built then the BK line IMO.

JoeyD
01-07-2008, 11:45 AM
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/BBQComet.jpg
This was done using the Unique Comet. Very good and versatile light and very versitile. Can be used in a Flush Mount, Hanging, or adjustable knuckle for angleing.

I have some other options for BBq's and outdoor kitchens if you want to see them just let me know.

SOUTHERNGREENSCAPES
01-07-2008, 02:51 PM
What i am looking for is something similar to track lighting you would see in your home above a bar or island. You know with three or four cool looking glass globes in cool colors or shapes. Similar idea to what you see in this picture.

Joey, you may be the only thing i have heard of that comes close if you can dangle your lights from a cord above the bar. It is not as much about the light they are producing as the looks of the globes with the accompanyment of light.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-07-2008, 03:29 PM
What i am looking for is something similar to track lighting you would see in your home above a bar or island. You know with three or four cool looking glass globes in cool colors or shapes. Similar idea to what you see in this picture.

Joey, you may be the only thing i have heard of that comes close if you can dangle your lights from a cord above the bar. It is not as much about the light they are producing as the looks of the globes with the accompanyment of light.

I have catalogs filled with single, double and triple head pendants of all shapes size and description. Non of them are designed or approved for outdoor or wet location installations.

I assume that the structure has no ceiling... it is open to the sky above and you want to hang these pendants from the beam structure? If there is a ceiling that has a roof deck on it to shed the rain etc, then we are talking a different game and you can make use of the stock pendants.

Photos would really help us solve this for you.

Pro-Scapes
01-07-2008, 03:31 PM
I now see what your after. What you would want is a Ring mount fixture not a track light. Unique has the commet avalible in a ring mount and Vision3 also has a ring mount. Im sure several others do also.

Notice how neat and clean both the examples from Joey and Eden are. Both conceal wire well and the fixtures are not obstructive to daytime use.

Whats the ceiling like over the area you intend to light ?

JoeyD
01-07-2008, 04:29 PM
like this??
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/envoy002.jpg

i do have a hanging light, the Observer. The light above is the Envoy

http://www.uniquelighting.com/product_pages/OBSERVER.htm

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/Enterprise.jpg

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/ApplicationShots012.jpg

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/ApplicationShots015.jpg

SOUTHERNGREENSCAPES
01-07-2008, 04:51 PM
That observer will probally do the trick. The structure is a pergola, so it will be exposed to the elements. another question on a similar track. what do you guys do to conceal your wire when running it from the ground to the ceiling of a pergola that is made of 6x6's? I would like to findanother option other than runing conduit up the back side of one of the pillars.

thanks for all the help guys.

Pro-Scapes
01-07-2008, 04:59 PM
thats a tough one. Need more info for sure. Are the 6x6 adjacent to a bed you can come up in ? are they painted or stained or otherwise ???

Some options would be... Route out a cove with a router and edge guide then brad nail a trim board over it... Carey technique which involves drilling angled holes in the post and threading the wire up then filling with putty... you can also purchase or make a slat of wood with a cove cut into it to hide the wire.

I have also seen something called panduit (sp???) where you attach a plastic trim to the post and then a cover snaps over it but im unsure how that would hold up outside.

Also keep in mind Focus makes a bbq light line thats basically an MR16 bullet mounted on a flexible shaft if you need something adjustable.

JoeyD
01-07-2008, 04:59 PM
That observer will probally do the trick. The structure is a pergola, so it will be exposed to the elements. another question on a similar track. what do you guys do to conceal your wire when running it from the ground to the ceiling of a pergola that is made of 6x6's? I would like to findanother option other than runing conduit up the back side of one of the pillars.

thanks for all the help guys.

When running wire up rain gutters always are a good option. If no rain gutter than I like to find the post or side of the post that is the least viewed and then I run the wire up tacking it down with some staples I then cover it with a piece of corner molding and then paint to match. This gives you a nice clean non obtrusive wire run up the column.

JoeyD
01-07-2008, 05:02 PM
Also keep in mind Focus makes a bbq light line thats basically an MR16 bullet mounted on a flexible shaft if you need something adjustable.


Those stems end up corroding and looking like junk after a while. I sold a ton of them, and have regretted it on a handfull of jobs.

Use this idea if you want a BBQ Light. The Hubble, then you can pick and choose any light you like and store it when you dont need light by removing it.

http://www.uniquelighting.com/product_pages/Hubble.htm

SOUTHERNGREENSCAPES
01-07-2008, 05:12 PM
I think i may use a little of both those thoughts. I think i will router the side of the 6x6 so that the wire will be flush, then leave it exposed if stained or cover it if we paint the post. The only problem with the other wood covering the post would be that it might not come out the same if it is stained. It may stand out too much. If it is painted, the diffence in the wood would not be seen.

You guys have been a great help.

Joey, i will either send you or my rep. a copy of what i am working on to get some help. I am still working on the landscaping for the back yard, but the whole project is going to be a large patio, pergola, outdoor kitchen and landscaping. I just need to get a little further along with everything else to find out how big everything is going to be. a couple of things i will be looking for is

1. lights to go under the granite top overhang that is used for the bar. Something to light up the ground at thier feet.

2. those hanging pendants like we were just looking like and then some general lighting for the rest.

Here is another quick thought (can you guys tell i am a greenhorn). is there a way to have switches incorporated into all this lighting? that way if there is a few lights under the pergola that they want to turn off while still leaving the rest of the landscape lighting on, they can.

SOUTHERNGREENSCAPES
01-07-2008, 05:14 PM
I don't need a bbq light. The grill has to spots built into it (Firemagic). Looking for under counter, drop lights over counter and probally some area lighting over the whole pergola.

SOUTHERNGREENSCAPES
01-07-2008, 05:17 PM
hey joey, is it possilbe that those envoys come with longer tubes that can be cut to fit so that i can have the amount of drop that i want?

Pro-Scapes
01-07-2008, 05:24 PM
yes you can do the switching. Run 2 seperate transformers and ask the electricians to wire it to a switch in the location of your choice or use an x10/upb setup to control it remotely.

with upb you can have the main trans come on nightly and they clients can press a button inside to engage the kitchen lights outside at their convience. Or you can do a switch/3way switch in a traditional manner installed by the electrician with the switched outlet controlling your transformer for the kitchen.

SOUTHERNGREENSCAPES
01-07-2008, 05:29 PM
could you not run a standard 110 stye switch inline to kill power to that particular light? I know that you are not running 110, but is there anything that would keep you from being able to do that?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-07-2008, 07:11 PM
You can switch the LV feed to a particular light or group of lights, just add it inline between the transformer and the fixtures. Use a flush mount RAB weatherproof single gang switch box (HD carries them in a bronze/brown colour which seems to blend in well on most stained wood structures) and a Hubble Outdoor 20A Toggle switch (Brown). Make the switch connection using crimp on closed loop connectors so that the wire attaches to the switch connectors properly.

Have a great day.

Chris J
01-08-2008, 12:06 AM
You can switch the LV feed to a particular light or group of lights, just add it inline between the transformer and the fixtures. Use a flush mount RAB weatherproof single gang switch box (HD carries them in a bronze/brown colour which seems to blend in well on most stained wood structures) and a Hubble Outdoor 20A Toggle switch (Brown). Make the switch connection using crimp on closed loop connectors so that the wire attaches to the switch connectors properly.

Have a great day.

James,
I don't want to boost your ego, but I want to thank you for your participation in this forum. Your responses always give a bit more added information that would help a potential contractor, and I appreciate that. In your last response, you gave the OP all the info he needed plus a bit more. This is the kind of generosity and help that I would like all of us to acknowledge and try to give of ourselves. Again, I'm not trying to toot your horn for you James, but I do thank you for sharing your knowledge with us. I, for one, admit that I don't have near the knowledge that you posess and I enjoy everything that you and others among us have to say.

SOUTHERNGREENSCAPES
01-08-2008, 12:27 AM
Thanks again everyone for the help. it is well received.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-08-2008, 12:37 AM
No problem Chris & Southerngreenscapes... Where would any of us be if someone had not gone before us and figured this stuff out then shared it with others?
Sometimes the 'simplest things' can get misunderstood and done incorrectly if the full information is not provided. Things like using a 15a indoor rated toggle switch in an outdoor application can cause unforeseen problems down the road. Best to just tell it right the first time

Have a great day.

irrig8r
01-08-2008, 12:45 AM
You can switch the LV feed to a particular light or group of lights, just add it inline between the transformer and the fixtures. Use a flush mount RAB weatherproof single gang switch box (HD carries them in a bronze/brown colour which seems to blend in well on most stained wood structures) and a Hubble Outdoor 20A Toggle switch (Brown). Make the switch connection using crimp on closed loop connectors so that the wire attaches to the switch connectors properly.

Have a great day.

James,
I'm not familiar with the Hubble switch, but I've always used the Red Dot (available at HD around here) junction box and single pole 20 A switch with the exterior switch plate for this purpose.

When using a single pole switch I cut only half of my cable. By "crimp-on closed loop connectors" I'm assuming you mean a ring terminal as is often found in automotive parts stores.


http://www.action-electronics.com/grc/term.gif

Good idea that I haven't tried yet... though I do keep some of them on hand for the few old green Nightscaping transformers I run across.

Pro-Scapes
01-08-2008, 12:46 AM
sure james make it simple for the guy. I still like the UPB idea so they can switch the lights on from the house before they even walk out to the area.

Chris J
01-08-2008, 12:52 AM
Billy, let's keep some of the trade secrets to ourselves.

Eden Lights
01-08-2008, 01:06 AM
could you not run a standard 110 stye switch inline to kill power to that particular light? I know that you are not running 110, but is there anything that would keep you from being able to do that?

You could also use a flashlight to grill by? Really, multiple transformers and automated control should be what you go to bat with first.

irrig8r
01-08-2008, 01:18 AM
I just confirmed by going out to the garage and checking what I had on hand that the Red Dot switch is only 15 A, not 20 A.

I could swear I used one that was 20 A, but it may be a different brand, because checking HD's website all I could come up with for Red Dot was the 15 A...

So, why would 15 A not be adequate for just a handful of fixtures on say a small overhead arbor?

For instance, four 20 W fixtures would be 80 W.
80 W/ 12 V = 6.67 A, right?

Three fixtures x 20 W would be 5 A.
Five fixtures x 20 W would be 8.34 A.

Or am I doing the math wrong?

Pro-Scapes
01-08-2008, 01:18 AM
Eden... i second that motion... oh crap wait.. it was my idea :)

one issue I see with the switching if not done properly would be the changing of the voltage when you switch lights on or off. Some transformers change considerably when the load changes. If you need a small trans in the area and want to do the switch maybe the kichler 300 double one with 2 transformers at 300w each in the same cabinet ?

How many watts are you planning to place in switchable configuration ? This is also a good key deciding factor in how to go about it. Then... its your duty to confer with the client and see how they would like to be able to use and control the area. Perhaps they even want dimmable so after cooking they can set the mood to eat and have a nice glass of wine by. Sorry to make this all seem difficult but it will only help you exceed your clients expectations.

Chris J
01-08-2008, 01:34 AM
I just confirmed by going out to the garage and checking what I had on hand that the Red Dot switch is only 15 A, not 20 A.

I could swear I used one that was 20 A, but it may be a different brand, because checking HD's website all I could come up with for Red Dot was the 15 A...

So, why would 15 A not be adequate for just a handful of fixtures on say a small overhead arbor?

For instance, four 20 W fixtures would be 80 W.
80 W/ 12 V = 6.67 A, right?

Three fixtures x 20 W would be 5 A.
Five fixtures x 20 W would be 8.34 A.

Or am I doing the math wrong?

Shut up and have a drink!

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-08-2008, 01:50 AM
Sheesh. The guy just wanted to have a remote switch for a few lights...

K.I.S.S. has been around for a long time guys, there is a reason why. No need to muddy the waters. If the client wants UPB controls, Dimming, or other upscale additions to the system I am sure the contractor would call in a pro to handle it for him.

Gregg... you have it all right my man, the switch, the connectors, the wiring technique, and even the Red Dot boxes. (I thought they were RAB) You can probably get away with a 15a interior toggle switch but I like to use the Hubble 20A Outdoor / Marine grade as a precaution.

irrig8r
01-08-2008, 03:17 AM
Shut up and have a drink!

I like your attitude Chris. Cheers.:drinkup:

irrig8r
01-08-2008, 03:24 AM
Gregg... you have it all right my man, the switch, the connectors, the wiring technique, and even the Red Dot boxes. (I thought they were RAB) You can probably get away with a 15a interior toggle switch but I like to use the Hubble 20A Outdoor / Marine grade as a precaution.

Thanks James. Here's a pic of the one I use. Comes with the outdoor switch plate. All for under $5. (Obviously the two pics are not the same scale.)

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImage/888bfa40-aa57-4529-abdb-09e3e1f02250_400.jpg

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-08-2008, 03:37 AM
Man do you guys ever get a deal on pricing. I guess that is the benefit of having a market of 320 million people over a market of 32 million. Volume Volume Volume.

JoeyD
01-08-2008, 10:55 AM
hey joey, is it possilbe that those envoys come with longer tubes that can be cut to fit so that i can have the amount of drop that i want?

The Envoy comes in a standard length of 22.7". That is form the base to the end of the shroud. Bassicly it is an 18" stem that you can shorten but I would have to look and see if we can do it longer than that. The pic you see that was close up was a shortened stem. Those that are above the BBQ display were the full size versions.

JoeyD
01-08-2008, 02:27 PM
Here is the hanging Observer. I knew I had a picture of it in action.

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/hangingobserver003.jpg

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/hangingobserver004.jpg

irrig8r
01-08-2008, 02:38 PM
Where is that Joey... some kind of patio and BBQ store?

JoeyD
01-08-2008, 02:41 PM
Where is that Joey... some kind of patio and BBQ store?


Yeah, it is here in southern california somewhere. Not sure of the name.

Pro-Scapes
01-08-2008, 03:49 PM
good thing its not an install somewhere. Whoever did that wiring job should be sent back to there for a second "observation" of the wiring techniques lol.

Thats a nice looking fixture tho. It could really come in handy

JoeyD
01-08-2008, 04:52 PM
good thing its not an install somewhere. Whoever did that wiring job should be sent back to there for a second "observation" of the wiring techniques lol.

Thats a nice looking fixture tho. It could really come in handy

It was put in by the people at the store.

pete scalia
01-08-2008, 10:51 PM
Where is that Joey... some kind of patio and BBQ store?

No it's the Tiki Tiki room at Disneyland

irrig8r
01-08-2008, 11:19 PM
No it's the Tiki Tiki room at Disneyland

Now Pete, I saw the Tiki Tiki Room, when I was 11 years old... and I don't see any animatronic birds in that store..... you can't fool me.

JoeyD
01-08-2008, 11:25 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhApjPASb64
I couldnt even make it thru the opening credits.......They do sell these Dole Pineaple frozen slushy thing that is really good right in front of the Tiki Room at Disneyland.

JoeyD
01-09-2008, 04:48 PM
That observer will probally do the trick. The structure is a pergola, so it will be exposed to the elements. another question on a similar track. what do you guys do to conceal your wire when running it from the ground to the ceiling of a pergola that is made of 6x6's? I would like to findanother option other than runing conduit up the back side of one of the pillars.

thanks for all the help guys.

In the Landscape Lighting Resource Manual chapter 7-4 thru 7-10 Nate discusses some good wire hiding techniques for posts.

Just FYI

SOUTHERNGREENSCAPES
01-09-2008, 05:16 PM
It is funny how you write something in the form of a question thinking that you have a decent amount of common sense and you have thought of all the options, then someone writes something that is so simple that when you go back to read your original post you feel like a total dumb a$$.

That is how i feel about the hiding the wire post from earlier. It was obvious to me that most guys must be using conduit to get the wire to the top of a pergola. Then someone mentions routering the post and putting another piece of wood on top of that to conceal the wire and you are like, geeze, that is so simple why didn't i think of that in the first place.

oh well, that shows how a simple post from someone more experienced can really help a greenhorn.

thanks for all the help guys.

I will eat this elephant eventually, even if it is one bite at a time.

Pro-Scapes
01-09-2008, 06:47 PM
Excellent post southern... Thats EXACTLY why we are all here. No matter how much experience you gain you can always learn from others trial and error.

I have learned just as much if not more here than I have hands on in the field.

ChampionLS
01-10-2008, 03:00 AM
If you were a Carpenter, you would have thought of that. Sometimes you need to wear many hats to make things work. Life is full of learning experiences. The hardest part is holding people by the hand and making them try something new.