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INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-07-2008, 02:41 AM
I was looking through some 'new to me' manufacturers and came across the Winona Winscape JEBR pathlight. It is a pretty typical looking pathlight except for its use of an MR16 lamp.

Other then Sundown Designs, can you direct me to other copper or brass pathlights that make use of MR16 lamps?

Thanks.

Mike M
01-07-2008, 06:18 AM
James, just curious about your interest in an MR 16 for the path light.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-07-2008, 12:59 PM
Purely selfish interest on my part Mike. I figure have found a very good LED MR16 lamp and if I can integrate that into a line of pathlights I am further ahead of the game in terms of LED integration and service requirements system wide.

So far not many responses here.

I know that Sundown Designs makes a number of pathlights using MR16 lamps, but we have not had a great rapport in the past. They seemed very difficult to deal with and were more interested in filling up my shop with inventory then they were in distributing to me on an as needed basis. I like using stocking distributors when ever I can... It makes live much easier at the border too.

Have a great day.

irrig8r
01-07-2008, 01:36 PM
Mike Gambino's branded pathlights use MR-16s as I recall. Wonder who makes them for him?

irrig8r
01-07-2008, 01:55 PM
Here's a Winona pathlight I found:

http://www.winonalighting.com/images/b5_img535_8159.jpg

Here's one of Gambino's (to gauge scale, that pop-up sprinkler is about 1.5 in. across... so the pathlight must be 8 to 10 in. across the hat and 20 to 24 in. tall ???)

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=83322&stc=1&d=1182483593

Anyone else remember a short-lived foray into lighting by Rain Bird called Nightbird?

As I recall it was one basic fixture, all stainless steel, designed to use different attachments to make it into an uplight or a pathlight. (This was about 15 to 20 years ago and I can't find any info or photos using Google.)

Unfortunately, Rain Bird is one of those companies that when they pull a product off the market makes it very hard to find any reference to it.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-07-2008, 03:37 PM
I seem to recall that Mike G. was pretty tight with Sundown Designs for a while. Perhaps he is having them manufacture it, or he just borrowed the idea of the MR16 pathlight from Sundown and is having it made to his spec. somewhere else. I will ask him at the Conference, but I really doubt he will tell.

The winnona fixture you posted is the same one I found Gregg... Now to find others to compliment it.

Thanks.

Pro-Scapes
01-07-2008, 03:38 PM
If memory serves me Mike Gambino helped develop or design the sundown line. Quite similar in apearance to his path ??? Sundown. Winonna and Gambinos are the only ones I am aware of. I have never used one but was looking at the sundowns just today.

Dont assume sundown makes his or he copied sundown.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-07-2008, 03:50 PM
No worries Billy, I am not assuming anything when it comes to Mike G. :) It really doesn't matter to me one way or the other. I just thought it would be interesting to start looking for others who are using MR16 Pathlights.

Perhaps Nate & Team will come up with something like this... Copper would be preferred.

Thanks.

Pro-Scapes
01-08-2008, 12:39 AM
I spoke with Mike Gambino tonight to verify I did in fact have it straight. He did design the MR fixture for sundown and no, Sundown does NOT make his path for him. Gambino innovated the MR16 pathlight.

The sundown was originally a bi-pin which Todd the owner of sundown modified on Mike's recomendation to accept the Mr16 lamp

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-08-2008, 12:55 AM
Interesting, thanks Billy. I knew that Gambino and Todd were pretty tight for a while (if not still)

I actually like a few of the products that Sundown has in their line. I wonder if they are more easy to deal with now then in the past. Does anyone here have a relationship with them?

Have a great day.

Pro-Scapes
01-08-2008, 01:11 AM
i am pretty sure from the way he spoke he has little to do with them if anything now.

ChampionLS
01-08-2008, 01:29 AM
I think it's made by Pinnacle Lighting

See attached.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-08-2008, 01:57 AM
Well Lookie here! Nicely done Anthony... great sleuthing there! HA. I love it. If you can provide me with a link to Pinnacle Lighting I would appreciate it.

Have a great day.

irrig8r
01-08-2008, 02:11 AM
Wasn't too hard to find... lots of lighting companies wih Pinnacle in their names though...

http://www.pinnaclelights.com

But these don't use MR-16s.

Funny thing too, a lot of their fixtures have names I've seen elsewhere... Joey?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-08-2008, 02:28 AM
Thanks Gregg, you are right it doesnt use an MR16 lamp, but sure does look a lot like the Gambinoliter-pathlight edition

As for that pinnicallights.com ... wow where have I seen that stuff before. Man that has gotta sting. ( I know I know, its not the same quality, etc etc but man those casings and castings sure get around dont they?)

The search continues.....

irrig8r
01-08-2008, 02:43 AM
We can't get too smug about that though James...

Pinnacle makes a finned uplight called the Phoenix which looks an awful lot like the Kim El Dorado, the Nightscaping O'Keefeliter, and the Megabay Enduro, which I think may have been the progenitor of them all...

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-08-2008, 02:52 AM
Not trying to be smug about it Gregg... just am surprised at how far and wide the same fixture bodies get spread.

You are right on the finned brass uplight.... You can find the same fixture from RAB and Kichler too. The story as I understand it is that NS had an exclusive term on the use of that body for a number of years... one of their only forrays into having their fixtures built out of house. In any case, once the agreement expired the manufacturer started selling the fixture to everyone and anyone. No matter who puts their brand on that fixture it is still probably the most unservicable fixture on the market. Have you ever tried to change the lamp on that thing? LOL fastest way is to smash the old lamp out of the fixture with a hammer! Bad design.

JoeyD
01-08-2008, 11:15 AM
I think it's made by Pinnacle Lighting

See attached.


Those look exactly like my Mercury 7?

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/Mercury7.jpg

Pro-Scapes
01-08-2008, 11:48 AM
i think there are a dozen companies with that finned bullet. Who made it first ? Kichler has it... i think its in the cast demo kit too... Dabmar makes one... Frog lights even has a solid brass one now that seems far better than the kichler or dabmar.

I still have some in my demo kit altho they are being phased out. The lenses collect ware and debris. Wait... I still got 4 at my house. Seems im always having to push a bulb back into the sockets. When the new addition goes up the lights will be coming out!

irrig8r
01-08-2008, 12:43 PM
I think the first I saw was the one offered by Nightscaping... but it turned out the bodies were actually cast by Megabay (Australian company)... and they still have a lot of variations on it.

Anyway, it's everywhere now.

Pro-Scapes
01-08-2008, 12:48 PM
i dont get why when its not all that great of a light!

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-08-2008, 07:09 PM
Those look exactly like my Mercury 7?

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/Mercury7.jpg

Hey Joey... any chance that fixture of yours could be modified to accept a MR16 lamp? Let me know.

Regards.

JoeyD
01-08-2008, 07:37 PM
Hey Joey... any chance that fixture of yours could be modified to accept a MR16 lamp? Let me know.

Regards.


Unfortunatly it wouldnt, the lens dimensions are to small to accept one. Possibly an MR11 but I am not sure why you would even want an MR16 pointing strait up into a shroud that is only 1 inch away?

Pro-Scapes
01-08-2008, 08:58 PM
longer bulb life ? better color ???More robust output ??? im not implying but just taking a wild guess from what I have seen in photos. Doesnt look like they fade outside a few foot radius like bi pins do.

Photometrics look wider to me but we all know pics can be deciving. There is also the issue you can recess the lamp back inside a shroud. Often times with a traditional path mounted around stairs or grade changes you would be able to see the bulb or close to it. The MR based lights would provide a reflective light instead of seeing the bulb when the fixture is mounted about the visual plane.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-08-2008, 09:17 PM
You are right on the money there Billy.

Pro-Scapes
01-08-2008, 09:30 PM
well it didnt take scooby doo to figure out that mystery now did it?

Mike M
01-08-2008, 09:35 PM
Okay, anyone know a good par path light?

Pro-Scapes
01-08-2008, 09:38 PM
no but your the one now elected to inovate that Idea. I would just crazy glue a par to a pvc pipe to start with... be sure the lamp is inverted and you maight want a collection of paper unbrellas for a top :)

Actually if you had a really large path light about 6 ft tall it might be a feesible idea. 6-7 ft tall....12 ft in diameter :) Doubles as a tanning station.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-08-2008, 09:44 PM
:laugh:Okay, anyone know a good par path light?

Now THAT was FUNNY!

What would be more funny is if someone would actually make up a par36 path light! I would buy one.

Mike M
01-08-2008, 09:46 PM
Well, it would be great to set up a bunch in a field and just flick them on for deer spotting.

Mike M
01-08-2008, 09:50 PM
I'm on it.

ChampionLS
01-08-2008, 10:34 PM
Well Lookie here! Nicely done Anthony... great sleuthing there! HA. I love it. If you can provide me with a link to Pinnacle Lighting I would appreciate it.

Have a great day.

Yuppers! Im kind of Googling' mo fo. haha. Actually..theres an art to using boolean search parameters when using Google.

The link is pinnaclelights.com

Personally, they don't seem anything more than the usual import type of styling. (not saying they are)

ChampionLS
01-08-2008, 10:39 PM
no but your the one now elected to inovate that Idea. I would just crazy glue a par to a pvc pipe to start with... be sure the lamp is inverted and you maight want a collection of paper unbrellas for a top :)

Actually if you had a really large path light about 6 ft tall it might be a feesible idea. 6-7 ft tall....12 ft in diameter :) Doubles as a tanning station.

Ewww!.. I PAR path light?? :dizzy:

irrig8r
01-08-2008, 10:40 PM
Oddly enough, this Kim mushroom light might be just the thing to accomodate an MR-16 because it already is designed for either LV or line voltage use....comes with an A-19 socket and lamp, and not sure what kind of weather/ sprinkler shielding.... if any.

But it seems to have the interior room...

Don't know much about Kim and whether they customize much, but if the patent has expired on the design (surely it has) maybe you could get somebody like Nightscaping or CAST to make it in brass/ bronze for you with the sprinkler shield and reflective coating you need.

http://www.kimlighting.com/kl-1166.pdf


http://www.kimlighting.com/images/el115mushroom.jpg

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-08-2008, 10:47 PM
only problem with that is that it is ugly as sin! yuck.

I will probably design something and have NS build it... in time.

ChampionLS
01-08-2008, 10:51 PM
Apparently Kichler makes a PAR pathlight. Ugh.

pete scalia
01-08-2008, 10:52 PM
Apparently Kichler makes a PAR pathlight. Ugh.

Everything they make is UGH!

Only hacks use the brand.

JoeyD
01-08-2008, 11:02 PM
I'm sorry but you guys are not selling me on this one just yet. I wil check it out with our lights to see which can accept an MR lamp. I know I could squeeze in some MR8 and MR11 lamps but that sort of defeats the reasons you listed to even want an MR lamp. I think I could put an MR16 into a Saturn. http://www.uniquelighting.com/product_pages/SATURN.htm

Pro-Scapes
01-08-2008, 11:12 PM
might actually work well if you made it into something like an umbrella frame. Would solve the difficult to light situations of patio tables with umbrellas.

Can you imagine the cost and labor involved with a 7 ft copper canopy housing a par bulb in the center and a dimmerswitch on the shaft :)

JoeyD
01-08-2008, 11:16 PM
might actually work well if you made it into something like an umbrella frame. Would solve the difficult to light situations of patio tables with umbrellas.

Can you imagine the cost and labor involved with a 7 ft copper canopy housing a par bulb in the center and a dimmerswitch on the shaft :)

You would buy something like this??? Say it cost you $250 for a brass post light that utilized a Par lamp. Would you still buy it?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-08-2008, 11:31 PM
not really for that application, but I buy fixtures that cost me $250+++ regularly. The good stuff aint cheap.

Pro-Scapes
01-08-2008, 11:53 PM
if i had an application that deemed it was needed and it was an acceptable project.... to meet my clients desires... sure i would. I could see something of this nature being popular at beach resorts or something as well.

Pro-Scapes
01-08-2008, 11:56 PM
Apparently Kichler makes a PAR pathlight. Ugh.

thats not a par path. Thatsa pathlight with a bubbled lens i do beilive

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-09-2008, 12:18 AM
Joey: Hammacher Schlemmer already sells a really decent Under Umbrella Light system. I have seen some of my clients with it. Not sure if it is wired or solar or battery, but it is LED. the light out of it is just about right. No need to re-invent the wheel there.

Regards.

JoeyD
01-09-2008, 12:22 AM
James, I am not interested in developing this light because it would be one of those lights that people never use.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-09-2008, 12:34 AM
I think you are right Joey. Who sits under a patio umbrella after dark anyways?? Sorta silly if you ask me.

ChampionLS
01-09-2008, 02:29 AM
thats not a par path. Thatsa pathlight with a bubbled lens i do beilive

Heres what the review said:

Wiring: 30" of usable 150 Degree C 18AWG wire leads. 120-Volt, medium base porcelain socket with nickel plated screw shell. Cable Connector supplied with fixture. Supply wire with lugs attach directly to Par 36 light bulb screw terminals.

Mike M
01-09-2008, 06:23 AM
This dialog about a par 36 pathlight is just not happening.

Pro-Scapes
01-09-2008, 08:23 AM
Heres what the review said:

Wiring: 30" of usable 150 Degree C 18AWG wire leads. 120-Volt, medium base porcelain socket with nickel plated screw shell. Cable Connector supplied with fixture. Supply wire with lugs attach directly to Par 36 light bulb screw terminals.

then i stand corrected. whats the item number ?

ChampionLS
01-10-2008, 03:11 AM
Part No. 15222MST

Pro-Scapes
01-31-2008, 02:29 PM
bringing this back to life. Has anyone played with the mr16 paths yet? I did last night and was blown away by the output and coverage of the set up.

I didnt get a chance to measure the circle or photograph it due to rain but will try to do so tonight if the weather is clear. You could even step down to a 10w if needed.

I anticipate a huge impact on designs with this. Less pathlights with fuller coverage. Bi pins and 3156 lamps dont even come close

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-31-2008, 02:40 PM
Hey Billy

Pretty nice light output isn't it? Care to tell us what MR16 pathlights you are testing? Sundown Designs, Winona, or Gambino Specials (SPJ) or some other?

Thanks.

Pro-Scapes
01-31-2008, 02:50 PM
Hey Billy

Pretty nice light output isn't it? Care to tell us what MR16 pathlights you are testing? Sundown Designs, Winona, or Gambino Specials (SPJ) or some other?

Thanks.

you want my secrets but hoard your led info ? hrmmm

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-31-2008, 03:00 PM
No worries Billy... I just thought I would ask. There really are not many MR16 based pathlights on the market yet. Hopefully that will change soon.

If you got them from the Greater Chicago area... well then watch your back is all I can say.

Pro-Scapes
01-31-2008, 03:04 PM
I think its more than obvious I have the gambino James.

Not sure what other mr paths put out but this 20w vs a 20w bi pin is no comparison. Its pretty safe to say a 10w lamp would be plenty in some situations as well. Im sure even your led would produce a very nice output with an mr16 path.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-31-2008, 03:09 PM
No worries Billy... I just thought I would ask. There really are not many MR16 based pathlights on the market yet. Hopefully that will change soon.

If you got them from the Greater Chicago area... well then watch your back is all I can say.

Pro-Scapes
01-31-2008, 05:00 PM
the gambino path is not an spj fixture James. It can be kind of bright for a nice soft garden but the ability to place a 10w then a wide array of lenses has some advantages. The weather looks a bit uncoperative here today.

The mr paths really do have some advantages in alot of cases. I should be installing my first project with them in 2 weeks.

Eden Lights
01-31-2008, 05:44 PM
the gambino path is not an spj fixture James. It can be kind of bright for a nice soft garden but the ability to place a 10w then a wide array of lenses has some advantages. The weather looks a bit uncoperative here today.

The mr paths really do have some advantages in alot of cases. I should be installing my first project with them in 2 weeks.

Watch the glare on these MR16 based monsters, I have couple that I will sell real cheap.

irrig8r
01-31-2008, 06:16 PM
bringing this back to life. Has anyone played with the mr16 paths yet? I did last night and was blown away by the output and coverage of the set up.

I didnt get a chance to measure the circle or photograph it due to rain but will try to do so tonight if the weather is clear. You could even step down to a 10w if needed.

I anticipate a huge impact on designs with this. Less pathlights with fuller coverage. Bi pins and 3156 lamps dont even come close

Where does one get one of these Billy?

irrig8r
01-31-2008, 06:41 PM
See below.

irrig8r
01-31-2008, 06:42 PM
This Winona uses an MR-16 LED equivalent.

http://www.winonalighting.com/images/b5_img767_11323.jpg

Pro-Scapes
01-31-2008, 08:18 PM
Eden. Any light where you can see under the canopy will have glare or a hot spot. There is no direct glare as you cannot see the filament.

I have some bi pin paths out there with more glare than this thing will produce. As with any fixture placement is key.

Eden Lights
01-31-2008, 09:56 PM
Eden. Any light where you can see under the canopy will have glare or a hot spot. There is no direct glare as you cannot see the filament.

I have some bi pin paths out there with more glare than this thing will produce. As with any fixture placement is key.

I will have to admit I am biased, I am not a pathlight fan at all. Do we use some, Yes. All products have their place, but that tall, bright fixture, will destroy what you are trying to achieve with your total visual composition. The fixtures we tried and threw back into the don't like pile where alot like the one below and that big collar was just like a second reflected light source. I need to have a big yard sale for this stuff in the back of the shop.

Pro-Scapes
01-31-2008, 11:48 PM
this colar is a bit better. Alot less obtrusive than what your showing.

I agree paths can be eye sores but sometimes you can place them nice among plants without them being ugly.

Eden Lights
01-31-2008, 11:54 PM
So the big collar is gone? What about the transformers? When can I place my order?

Eden Lights
01-31-2008, 11:56 PM
Those would be excellent in high ambient light areas where the glare is not a issue, very nice.

Pro-Scapes
01-31-2008, 11:59 PM
why you asking me ? Email him and see. All I am doing here is informing you of new products avalible. What difference does it make if its a gambino... vista... kichler or whatever. I am just trying to share my findings thats all guys.

Az Gardener
02-01-2008, 12:53 AM
The Desert Botanical Garden here in Phoenix have some path lights that are 6'-7' tall palm sculptures that have 3 Par well lights at the base, the light shines up and hits the palm frawns and disperses the light all over the place. I think they were commissioned by an artist, they have quite a few.

I know Josh at F/X has made custom lights for us in the past but that was years ago when he was just getting started.

Pro-Scapes
02-01-2008, 01:26 AM
sounds neat. Can you grab us some pics next time your over there ? I am an amature fabricator and often have some neat ideas for sculputure lights but just have not had the time. With the new shop under construction maybe I will have some room for a cam plasma machine and a nice torch in which to play with some copper. With copper prices tho that could be an EXPENSIVE hobby.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-01-2008, 09:48 AM
It shouldn't be expensive to you Billy, it should be expensive for those who are lucky enough to get to have one of your custom designed and built pieces of art. Turn that ability into a remarkable asset. Create something from your vision and then install it and sell it as a unique, one-off piece of fine art. What is a hundred bucks worth of copper, some parts, and some of your time when you can turn that around and get a grand or two for your art?

Just be sure to take lots of photos and start a portfolio of it.

Regards.

Pro-Scapes
02-01-2008, 09:55 AM
I would much rather design lighting at this point in my life. Fabricating is like a hobby.. I am doing a large copper wall art for our house which will be attached to an interior brick wall. Just need to find the right interior lights to backlight it.

I custom built a copper fountain for someone about 7 years ago... it flowed water from an old wodden bucket at the top and flowed down. Had water wheels in it... overspills...you name it. Cost me around 450 in parts and I was stupid back then and sold it for about 900. This is long before I got into lighting. When I get my cam plasma set up my possibilities will open up alot more.