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steveparrott
01-10-2008, 03:30 PM
I came across an interesting directory of Dark Sky ordinances (existing and proposed) for states and municipalities. (states at the top, municipalties at the bottom).

http://www.darksky.org/mc/page.do?sitePageId=58882

I haven't looked at these closely, but I've heard from IESNA and IDA spokespeople that many of these ordinances are poorly written and nearly impossible to follow (especially with regards to landscape lighting).

1. Are any of you guys dealing with unreasonable and overly restrictive ordinances?

2. Do you think manufacturers and industry groups should get involved with supporting the changing of any of these.

Pro-Scapes
01-10-2008, 03:42 PM
MS seems so lax on everything. I would definatly like to see some more regulation here as some lighting companies are placing hid lights near the tops of trees shining up and down. It really does make a difference. There is also a community that has these AWFUL metal halides all over the streets.

I lit a property next to a property that had hids/merc vapors and had to change my original plan due to the ambient light created from the nieghbors system. I needed to increase number of fixtures as well as wattages.

To answer your finaly question yes, but not just manufactures and industry groups but the entire industry as a whole. This is where manufactures... aolp and darksky should all work together as a group.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-10-2008, 05:05 PM
I could go on for hours on this topic. I have built my entire business on Environmentally friendly, dark sky friendly lighting systems. I have consulted municipalities, service groups, community organizations, environmental associations and rate payers associations on this issue. I have developed a public service program to educate property owners and I have delivered numerous presentations on the issues. I have also worked alongside my municipality in developing and then adopting a set of lighting guidelines / regulations for the development / re-development of commercial and waterfront properties.

Most recently, I have developed a protocol for analysing, mapping and tracking the outdoor lighting footprint of any given community, street, bay, lake, etc etc. I call this the shoreline/community lighting assessment program (SLAP or CLAP) It uses real time observations mapped onto GIS data to create first benchmarks and then subsequent analysis for the purpose of measuring light pollution sources and remedies.

I could go on and on... but if you want to know more, maybe just email me.

ChampionLS
01-11-2008, 04:28 AM
There is also a community that has these AWFUL metal halides all over the streets.


Our very stupid liberal town opted to install a new "Green Park" on a small plot of land as you enter from the west. The "Green Park" funded by taxpayer money was built on a triangular shaped property that was formerly a used car lot. After some town meetings a plan was unveiled to install a environmentally conscious "Green" park. They built a massive berm and installed about 20 trees in a grid, and installed up lighting. They also installed a sign that says High-Land-Park, although our town is "Highland Park", and that sign is back lit. The whole park is sloped to allow rain water to first be filtered, before returning to the environment. At the bottom is a huge pit. The pit has a storm drain at the bottom, which is empties into the nearby Raritan River, about 200 feet away. At one end of the park, there is a residential two story home. FIVE FEET from the second floor bedroom window is a Mercury Vapor street light, with THREE More less than 20 feet away. These lights are placed along a sidewalk which is the only pedestrian path near the park. The units produce so much light pollution it's ridiculous! I can't imagine how the people living in that house feel. (probably renters) Even sitting at the traffic light you need to use your sun visor. The light over powers all the landscape lighting. I will shoot a pic of it and post it here. I'm at the point where I feel like calling the newspapers about it. So much for helping the environment!. :cry:

Mike M
01-11-2008, 07:33 AM
The largest geographic community in my county, and the wealthiest, permits no uplighting.

The industry needs to work with Dark Sky. It's my observation that we need certification and dare I say regulation, to promote quality illumination as much as possible, before more places say "no LV lighting."

James, I would kill for a powerpoint that can speak for the significant issues regarding good lighting design vs. bad, also including issues regarding continuous service and quality materials.

If I can't get something like this from a colleague or manu, I will make my own, but it will take a lot of research time and photography I don't readily have.

These are things that could be offered as membership to lighting organizations.

Mike M

Mike M
01-11-2008, 08:01 AM
IDA can supply materials, such as slides, handouts
you can copy and use, fact sheets, and so
forth. Develop your own local facts and information
and examples of good and bad lighting; send
copies to IDA

FYI: quote from dark sky website.

Looks like I may be joining.

Mike M

If anyone else can help me to put together a nice powerpoint on the issues in this thread I'd appreciate it.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-11-2008, 09:47 AM
Mike, I have a powerpoint presentation that I built. It is a 20 minute talk and 'slide show' that explains what light pollution is, what some of the negative impacts of light pollution are, and then goes on to talk about what home owners and DIY'ers can do to reduce the light pollution coming from their property and their municipalities.

It took some time to compose and write and I have delivered this program to about 15 different audiences so far. I basically did what you are about to do... I joined the IDA, I used a lot of their resources to develop the program and then I promoted this to my community. It worked out very well.

If you have any specific questions or hurdles give me a call.

Regards.

Mike M
01-11-2008, 08:42 PM
I'm going to join and do this asap. I need to get a lap top.

pete scalia
01-11-2008, 08:58 PM
I'm going to join and do this asap. I need to get a lap top.

Forget dark sky

irrig8r
01-12-2008, 01:15 AM
Forget dark sky

Jeez Pete, we missed you. Where ya been?

pete scalia
01-12-2008, 01:46 AM
Jeez Pete, we missed you. Where ya been?

busy making transformers

NightScenes
01-12-2008, 10:30 AM
Here is something I received yesterday in this regard. I like this one because it specifies the amount of lumins allowed in up lighting. If you choose your lamps well, you can easily install a great landscape lighting system and stay within these restrictions.



ST BILL NO. DOC TYPE VERSION LEGIS DATE
WA HB2534 Bill Text Prefiled 1/7/2008
Restricting light pollution.
NUMBER OF HITS: 5

BILL REQ. #: H-3843.3





_____________________________________________

House Bill 2534
_____________________________________________
State of Washington 60th Legislature 2008 Regular Session

By Representatives Lantz and Hunt
Prefiled 01/07/08.




AN ACT Relating to light pollution; adding a new section to chapter 70.95M RCW; and adding a new chapter to Title 70 RCW.

BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF WASHINGTON:

NEW SECTION. Sec. 1 The increased use of ineffective and inefficient exterior lighting in Washington has generated unnecessary light pollution and wasteful energy consumption. With the application of the best technology available, Washington will be able to reduce sky glow, create substantial reductions in energy consumption, and protect the nighttime environment.
Light pollution may be greatly reduced by using properly designed light fixtures that direct light downward, are mounted at the proper height to do their job, and avoid glare and light trespass. This lighting is known as fully shielded lamps. Modern fully shielded lamps deliver the same amount of light to the ground as older wasteful designs but use less power, thus reducing the amount of energy used, which saves money and reduces the quantity of greenhouse gases released into the environment.
Therefore, it is the intent of the legislature to require the best technology available in all exterior lighting in order to reduce energy consumption and protect our night sky.


NEW SECTION. Sec. 2 The definitions in this section apply throughout this chapter unless the context clearly requires otherwise.
(1) "Fully shielded" means an outdoor lighting fixture that is installed and shielded in such a manner that all light rays emitted by the fixture, either directly from the lamp or indirectly from the fixture, are projected below a horizontal plane running through the lowest point on the fixture where light is emitted.
(2) "Lamp" means the component of a luminaire that produces actual light.
(3) "LED" means light emitting diodes.
(4) "Luminaire" means a complete lighting system, which includes a lamp or lamps and a fixture.
(5) "Outdoor lighting" means nighttime illumination of an outside area or object by any human-made device located outdoors that produces light by any means.
(6) "Outdoor lighting fixture" means outdoor electrically powered illuminating devices, outdoor lighting or reflective surfaces, lamps, and similar devices that are permanently installed or portable and used for illumination, decoration, or advertisement. These devices include search, spot, and floodlights at or on the following:
(a) Buildings and structures;
(b) Recreational areas;
(c) Parking lot lighting ;
(d) Landscape lighting ;
(e) Billboards and other signs;
(f) Street lighting ;
(g) Product display area lighting ; and
(h) Building overhangs and open canopies.
(7) "Person" means an individual, a tenant, a lessee, an owner, or any commercial entity, including a firm, business, partnership, joint venture, government entity, or corporation.
(8) "Temporary outdoor lighting" means the specific illumination of an outside area of objects by any human-made device located outdoors that produces light by any means for a period of less than thirty days, with at least one hundred eighty days passing before it is used again.


NEW SECTION. Sec. 3 (1) All new public and private outdoor lighting installed after July 1, 2008, in Washington must conform to the requirements of this chapter. All other public and private outdoor lighting must conform to the requirements of this chapter by July 1, 2012.
(2) Nothing in this chapter prevents the application or adoption of local regulations restricting light pollution that are equal to or more stringent than the requirements of this chapter.


NEW SECTION. Sec. 4 The provisions of this chapter do not apply to:
(1) Temporary lighting required for construction projects and related to road construction and repair, installation of sewer and water facilities, and other public infrastructure;
(2) Temporary emergency lighting used by police, fire departments, or other emergency services;
(3) Hazard warning luminaires required by federal law and federal regulatory agencies, if the luminaires are red and as close as possible to the minimum required lumen output for the task under federal law;
(4) Seasonal and decorative lighting displays that use multiple low wattage bulbs, including LED lights;
(5) Navigational lighting systems at airports.


NEW SECTION. Sec. 5 (1) Any new or replacement outdoor lighting fixture must be a fully shielded luminaire if the rated output of the outdoor lighting fixture is greater than one thousand eight hundred lumens.
(2) Where practicable, lighting must include timers, dimmers, and sensors to reduce overall energy consumption.


NEW SECTION. Sec. 6 In addition to the restrictions under RCW 47.42.062(4), an outdoor lighting fixture used to illuminate outdoor advertising signs, including street signs and directive signs, must be fully shielded and mounted on top of the sign structure.


NEW SECTION. Sec. 7 (1) Outdoor lighting may not be used for public or private outdoor recreational facilities, including but not limited to football fields, soccer fields, baseball fields, softball fields, tennis courts, race tracks, ski slopes, or show areas unless the following conditions are met:
(a) Lighting for parking lots and other areas surrounding the recreational facility comply with this chapter;
(b) The fixtures used for event lighting are fully shielded; and
(c) The event is scheduled to complete all activity before or as near to 10:00 p.m. as practical.
(2) A person may not illuminate a playing field, court, slope, or track after 11:00 p.m. except to conclude a scheduled event that was in progress before 11:00 p.m. and if circumstances prevented the event from concluding before 11:00 p.m.



NEW SECTION. Sec. 8 (1) Outdoor lighting may not be used for lighting outdoor display lots, including automobile sales or rentals, recreational vehicle sales, or building material sales unless the following conditions are met:
(a) Lighting of parking lots and other areas surrounding the display lot comply with this chapter;
(b) Fixtures used for display lighting are fully shielded; and
(c) Display lot lighting is turned off within thirty minutes after closing the business.
(2) A person may not fully illuminate a display lot after 10:00 p.m., but security lighting may be used after 10:00 p.m.


NEW SECTION. Sec. 9 A new section is added to chapter 70.95M RCW to read as follows:
(1) A person may not install, sell, offer to sell, lease, or purchase a mercury vapor fixture, lamp, or other device for outdoor lighting use.
(2) Mercury vapor lamps or fixtures used for outdoor lighting must be removed by July 1, 2009.


NEW SECTION. Sec. 10 Sections 1 through 8 of this act constitute a new chapter in Title 70 RCW.


--- END ---

irrig8r
01-12-2008, 12:28 PM
...<snip>...
(6) "Outdoor lighting fixture" means outdoor electrically powered illuminating devices, outdoor lighting or reflective surfaces, lamps, and similar devices that are permanently installed or portable and used for illumination, decoration, or advertisement. These devices include search, spot, and floodlights ....<snip>

....NEW SECTION. Sec. 4 The provisions of this chapter do not apply to:
(1) Temporary lighting required for construction projects and related to road construction and repair, installation of sewer and water facilities, and other public infrastructure;
(2) Temporary emergency lighting used by police, fire departments, or other emergency services;
(3) Hazard warning luminaires required by federal law and federal regulatory agencies, if the luminaires are red and as close as possible to the minimum required lumen output for the task under federal law;
(4) Seasonal and decorative lighting displays that use multiple low wattage bulbs, including LED lights;
(5) Navigational lighting systems at airports.


NEW SECTION. Sec. 5 (1) Any new or replacement outdoor lighting fixture must be a fully shielded luminaire if the rated output of the outdoor lighting fixture is greater than one thousand eight hundred lumens.



Looks to me like loopholes big enough to drive a truck through... especially 4.4

NightLightingFX
01-13-2008, 02:56 PM
Matt e-mailed me that WA State proposed legislation the other day. It seems like the intentions are good but why put more laws on the books. It seems very vauge to me. Since I live in WA State my fear is that the only people this law will benefit are the people who like to nit pic and complain about everything. My whole objective is to create a pleasing outdoor lighting portrait without glare and light pollution. I am afraid that when they put some laws on the books about up lighting and etc. my ability to do everything creativly possible to create the best lighting scene will be limited. Limited by people and laws that don't know anything about artistic outdoor lighting. Do you guys think I have a lot to worry about with this law? I know AZ has the Dark Sky's headquarters in AZ, and it seems like there is still a lot of quality outdoor lighting in AZ so hopefully I won't have to worry about too much.
~Ned

NightScenes
01-13-2008, 03:10 PM
Ned, if you look at that WA ordinance, you can do everything that you are already doing (most likely). 1800 lumens for up lighting is more than enough.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-13-2008, 05:12 PM
I would suggest those of you who are being impacted by municipal, state and other regulations learn them inside and out and then work with the authorities.

Become the Dr. Goodlight® of your community. Embrace the rules and then market yourselves as the only lighting consultant who works within them. Make friends at the City Hall or State Legislature and then begin the process of consulting with the rule makers to enhance your position in the industry. Put together a public education and awareness program and deliver it to the public every chance you get.

In so doing, you will create a niche for yourself, one in which you will be rewarded over and over with positive comments, great free press, and a constant stream of attention from those people who most want to make a positive difference in your market.

NightScenes
01-13-2008, 05:39 PM
I'm already there as well James. As more and more areas adopt lighting ordinances it will be those that learn how to best work within them that will come out on top.

pete scalia
01-13-2008, 05:53 PM
I'm already there as well James. As more and more areas adopt lighting ordinances it will be those that learn how to best work within them that will come out on top.

So your suggesting to roll over for this organization and allow them to regulate this lighting industry right out of business.
Let me tell you how this started not too long ago. It was started by a group of people who like to view the sky through telescopes at night. they complained that large industrial lighting , such as that from car dealerships were destroying their view of the night sky.
Now it has grown and spread to them regulating residential properties. I am convinced that this group will not be content until they abolish all decorative non essential night time lighting. Mark my words.

I have no intention of aiding and abetting them in doing that. I and my customers are as entitled to put up decorative lights as we see fit and choose to just like other freedoms afforded under the constitution of this great country (said with hand over heart) F(orget) Dark sky. They can pee in my wheaties. Doesn't mean I gotta eat it.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-13-2008, 06:40 PM
While you are cursing those who see light pollution as ugly, wasteful, injurious to flora and fauna and detrimental to the health and well being of human kind. (Do some more research into light pollution... these are not my claims) you might as well curse all of those people who went before, on other paths of environmental preservation and restoration.

Curse them for banning DDT and regulating the use of Dioxin
Curse them for banning CFCs and regulating the use of refrigerants
Curse them for banning bottom scouring fishing trawlers
Curse them for creating the endangered species lists that protects our wildlife

The list goes on and on....

Do you know that over $4 billion USD is spent each and every year on electricity to power lights that pollute and aim directly into the sky? Think of the detrimental environmental effects that simply generating that amount of electricity has on YOUR environment.

Change happens every day, all around us. Is it not better to initiate change, welcome change and embrace change then it is to sit back in your rut and watch everything change around you?

Light pollution is a very large concern to millions and millions of people, not just a few amateur astronomers who cannot enjoy the night sky in urban areas.

Take a night sometimes soon and spend some time at www.darksky.org It may just impress you.

irrig8r
01-13-2008, 09:30 PM
The optimist sees the glass as half full, the pessimist sees the glass as half empty... who wants to argue? I say raise the glass, drink the wine, and fill the glass again...




(I don't know what that has to do with this thread, but I'm trying to diffuse the tension... )

klkanders
01-13-2008, 09:42 PM
But what if my half was on the bottom Gregg! :)

klkanders
01-13-2008, 09:49 PM
Sorry Gregg that just reminded me of an old Laurel and Hardy skit (for you young guys this was in black and white) where they were going to share a beverage and when one of them drank the whole glass and the other complained he said "Well my half was on the bottom!"

irrig8r
01-13-2008, 10:00 PM
I love Laurel and Hardy! My youngest son got me a DVD that includes Sons Of The Desert and The Music Box for Xmas!

pete scalia
01-13-2008, 11:57 PM
While you are cursing those who see light pollution as ugly, wasteful, injurious to flora and fauna and detrimental to the health and well being of human kind. These are absolutely baseless and fraudulent claims (Do some more research into light pollution... these are not my claims) You admit that these are not your claims but you still post them here which in a court of law could be proven that you agree with and endorse themyou might as well curse all of those people who went before, on other paths of environmental preservation and restoration. That is making a rather large leap. I make no statements about the issues listed below

Curse them for banning DDT and regulating the use of Dioxin
Curse them for banning CFCs and regulating the use of refrigerants
Curse them for banning bottom scouring fishing trawlers
Curse them for creating the endangered species lists that protects our wildlife

The list goes on and on....

Do you know that over $4 billion USD is spent each and every year on electricity to power lights that pollute and aim directly into the sky? Again where is the documented proof of this absolutely false claim. There is no possible way to ever validate this inflammatory and reckless piece of propaganda Think of the detrimental environmental effects that simply generating that amount of electricity has on YOUR environment.

Change happens every day, all around us. Is it not better to initiate change, welcome change and embrace change then it is to sit back in your rut and watch everything change around you?

Light pollution is a very large concern to millions and millions of people, not just a few amateur astronomers who cannot enjoy the night sky in urban areas.

Take a night sometimes soon and spend some time at www.darksky.org It may just impress you.
Thanks , I'll take a pass. Too busy contributing to the "light" pollution to care about a small group of people hell bent on getting their way by making false claims

JoeyD
01-14-2008, 12:57 PM
So your suggesting to roll over for this organization and allow them to regulate this lighting industry right out of business.
Let me tell you how this started not too long ago. It was started by a group of people who like to view the sky through telescopes at night. they complained that large industrial lighting , such as that from car dealerships were destroying their view of the night sky.
Now it has grown and spread to them regulating residential properties. I am convinced that this group will not be content until they abolish all decorative non essential night time lighting. Mark my words.

I have no intention of aiding and abetting them in doing that. I and my customers are as entitled to put up decorative lights as we see fit and choose to just like other freedoms afforded under the constitution of this great country (said with hand over heart) F(orget) Dark sky. They can pee in my wheaties. Doesn't mean I gotta eat it.

Regardless if you like Pete or not guys you need to hear what he is saying here. You need to make sure that if you support an association that they are not going to be eventually working against you. What Pete said here is true and just like that little group known as the Sierra Club they will smile in your face and stab you in the back. Make sure the goal is not to wipe out your buisness entirely.

just my personal $.02

irrig8r
01-14-2008, 03:48 PM
C'mon Joey. Frankly, I think fear mongering is a the wrong approach.

Though I suppose if 90% of your business was uplighting then you might be up a creek....

Don't you think it's better to get involved in such an organization and actively promote responsible lighting? You'd probably run into extreme views from a small minority that would take away your business, but just by being involved and showing them you're not the bad guy you can counter their arguments, be the go-to lighting expert, and maybe get a few over to your side.

In some of the more affluent communities where I work, there is little or no street lighting. The lighting I install is as much for safety as it is for aesthetics.

They can't ban outdoor lighting entirely. But if they decide to regulate it, I'd rather be in on the writing of the regulations than having them imposed on me later, wouldn't you?

If you still think they're you're enemy, then join them for the recon value.

JoeyD
01-14-2008, 06:25 PM
Gregg I prefer to be a whoremonger thank you very much!

Actually I was sort of playign devil's advocate there and rightfully so. Regardless I think it is something we all need to consider. Not everyone wants to make 90% of their buisness downlighting or using 90 deg. cutoff fixtures that the IDA requires to approve.

We are currently getting fictures photo metricized (I made that word up) to submit to be IDA approved for the reasons you described above. We want to be a part of it and we want products to offer those who are loyal to the cause. But I myself feel that we all need to be carefull that we are clear with what we are doing and we are not laoding the gun that will later on shoot us.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-14-2008, 10:13 PM
I dont think any of us has anything to fear from the IDA. They have maintained a very reasonable position on outdoor lighting from their inception and have worked diligently to partner with manufacturers, the IESNA and others to come up with an approval process that recognizes fixtures and technology that does not cause light pollution. If you read their materials and on line resources you will probably be impressed. Also take not of the number of manufacturers who have DSF (dark sky friendly) approved fixture on the market.

If this was such a trivial and socially inept cause, then you would not have so many manufacturers rushing the plate to get DSF fixtures to market.

As for 'having to make 90% of your business downlighting' Well that is just not the case at all. Do some research, some reading and some learning... you will be amazed what can be accomplished in a non polluting and DSF manner. It is possible to provide uplighting, wall washing and other techniques in a DSF system, you just have to ensure that no light escapes unshielded into the sky.

Also "90 deg cutoff fixtures" is just a bit inaccurate. The IESNA specifies that a Cutoff Luminaire is: A luminaire light distribution where the candela per 1000 lamp lumens does not numerically exceed 25 (2.5 percent) at an angle of 90 degrees above nadir, and 100 (10 percent) at a vertical angle of 80 degrees above nadir. This applies to all lateral angles around the luminaire.


Regards.

pete scalia
01-14-2008, 10:17 PM
Regardless if you like Pete or not guys you need to hear what he is saying here. You need to make sure that if you support an association that they are not going to be eventually working against you. What Pete said here is true and just like that little group known as the Sierra Club they will smile in your face and stab you in the back. Make sure the goal is not to wipe out your buisness entirely.

just my personal $.02

Joey you mean there are people here that don't like me?:confused:
This comes as a great surprise and is causing me great distress:rolleyes:. Anyone who doesn't agree with my statements is cattle waiting for slaughter. What a flat 1 dimensional place this would would be if only downlighting were to be allowed. That's not a world I want to live in. Don't let it happen folks. Resist them at ever corner.

JoeyD
01-15-2008, 11:41 AM
Dont worry Pete, I like you!!! (insert emoticon of me hugging Pete here)