Mrusk

[GradeMan]

Does anyone know how he made out with tent city? Is the job finished? I would like to know if it was profitable working in the cold temps and dealing with the frost, etc... Anyone have any imput?? :hammerhead:

[EagleLandscape]

hes in dallas till the 13th

[old oak lawn]

i would like to see how his job is going to. last trend with his name on it was removed and i dont know why.

[GradeMan]

I thought maybe we lost him to the site as the admins have been sutting down threads. Its funny to see have such pride, heart and dedication to his work and people attack him. We all can learn from this, cocky gets you nowhere, At last glance I have never seen someone even attempt to do hardscaping in the winter, Thats dedication. So I wonder if he will ever try that winter work again????

So has anyine done any large winter work????

[EagleLandscape]

You guys were way too hard on him. For crying out loud we're all learning. Each to his own. Now if the quality of his work sucked, then by all means rip him to shreds. But geez, his work looks amazing. Some of the best I've seen on this site...

[SOUTHERNGREENSCAPES]

I thought maybe we lost him to the site as the admins have been sutting down threads. Its funny to see have such pride, heart and dedication to his work and people attack him. We all can learn from this, cocky gets you nowhere, At last glance I have never seen someone even attempt to do hardscaping in the winter, Thats dedication. So I wonder if he will ever try that winter work again????

So has anyine done any large winter work????

I think that CGLand and Mbella have still been doing some work, but i have not seen them post here in a while. Has anyone seen them???

[crab]

i am still doing winter work,lots actually its not impossible,rusk talks a big game but a least he posts pictures.

[jonmcmeen]

I must come out of the woodwork and say that I have actually had the privilege to see RUSK’S job first hand. (i.e. tent city) I took a ride down to his site a few weeks ago to see what he was up to. I did make quite a few independent observations:
1. The scale of this project is very large. The pictures that he took barely scratches the surface of the magnitude his project. There are so many different components to his job that it indeed will take significant time to complete, contrary to what anyone else who thinks they can do it faster (and better) than him.
2. Yes, it is a mess. More like a war zone in my opinion. There is dirt, tarps, pallets, machinery, etc. everywhere. He even had to build a wood deck/walkway to allow the homeowners to get to their front door! As I will say- you have to take the good with the bad: a big mess now will equate to a beautiful project when it is all done. And I do think Rusk is doing great work.
3. This project would deter most contractors from undertaking it. I said to myself: “I am glad this is not my project.” I mean the excavating alone that Rusk had to do was impressive. I think he had to arrange for something like 500 yards of to be excavated and removed from the property. Let me tell you, as a NJ contractor, I know how hard this can be especially if you can’t find anyone who wants it!
4. As I told him directly, he started this project way to late into the year. I knew he was going to battle the weather, and when you battle the weather with tarps, heaters, etc. it costs money. If he had started this in Spring, I’m sure it would have been less chaotic.
5. I was also shocked-but after doing some thinking- more “impressed” that Rusk actually contracted a job of this scale. I must congratulate him on his sales ability on this one. Being as young as he is, and to sell such a massive project without a much of a portfolio is great. I think that he must have really gained the homeowner’s trust and confidence somehow.

Rusk and I are acquaintances and actually ran into each other a few years ago at an estimate we both got a call for. I will say that he is not as bad a guy as this board portrays him to be. I do understand that he comes across having a major ego here on Lawnsite, but in actuality, he really is very passionate about his profession. All he talks about with me is work, his projects, and his problems. I don’t mind it. It is nice to see a young guy so passionate about his work. Rusk greatly wants to succeed in this business. And as most of you have found out, landscaping, especially hardscaping isn’t the easiest business to succeed in when you have to deal with things such as escalating insurance costs, difficulties finding good employees, and increased competition in this industry.

Jon:)

[old oak lawn]

thanks jonmcmeen . its good that you saw his work first hand and are able to tell us that he is doing a good job.

[jonmcmeen]

Hey- I'm a honest guy- so please feel free to ask ANY questions about his job. (I saw the plan before he contracted the project, I spent at least 2 hours at the site.)

Look- I'm not Rusk's public defender. To be honest- I had been reading his posts BEFORE i actually met him and I was like: "who does this guy think he is? What an a**" But once I got to know him- He really does have GREAT passion for this business.

Jon

[ncls]

Thanks Dad. :laugh:

[jonmcmeen]

LOL! I like it!!!

Love,
JON RUSK:laugh:

(I'm kidding..)

[kootoomootoo]

Dad lol

I luv how some of you guys think he is the only guy who ever worked during the winter ...between going to las vegas and dallas of course.

And I luv how dad acts like nobody could do it faster than Matt.
WANT A BET.

And who friigin excavates the entire site in one go with winter knocking on the door. Ever heard of starting in the back.....ie to keep site homeowner friendly. We all saw the plans.


""We are going to work on this progress through december 15th. Then return in the spring for about 7-10 days for plantings, lawn installation and fence.

In about 2 weeks the place will look alot better. Our main objective was to get in there and excavate and haul out everything as fast as possible.

We can do about 1500 sq feet of the pool deck/patio without doing the rear retaining wall. I'd rather lay the patio in one shot, butt we got to do what we have to do!"" October 15th

COULD HAVE HAD THE WHOLE BACK YARD DONE BY NOW..GOT THE WALL PERMIT THE 29TH NOV.
FRONT WALLS LETS FACE IT WERE FOR SHOW........

[PlatinumLandCon]

The guy goes on the forum daily (he was on only a few hours ago) but doesn't post. I don't understand why everyone is so concerned though...

[ZX12R]

I really admire his commitment to learning.I am sure he is a good guy.I do know one thing,if I had a job of even half that size,there is no way in hell I am going on trips.We have had a solid two weeks or more of good working weather.Thats a lot,and I do mean a LOT of work that could have been accomplished.

[GradeMan]

i couldn't careless if he comes back to the site but having said that everyone on this site can teach someone something. Everybody has different ways of doing a job.

So does the customer get charged with the cost of doing business in the winter or does the contractor eat it in order to keep the manpower around in the winter???? It would be some fustrating coming to the job site every morning only to see that your going backwards dealing with the cold.

Is this profitable?

[GradeMan]

Why didn't he start at the back yard and work his way out? Seem kind of silly, I bet he wont do that again

[newtostone]

alright i haven't said anything to all this madness yet, wasn't sure if i would. but what i would like to say is that mrusk is adding more content than most to this site, and theres a majority that really enjoy reading and seeing it. i know he catching some hot air on here but really why? because he is slow on posting pictures? didn't have all his permits first? something he should have but really lets face. experience comes with time something thats earned and he is earning it everyday, just let him do his work and post as he wants. if you don't like it block him, and those that enjoy will read. thats all there is to it. all the more power to the man trying to make it.

[EagleLandscape]

thank you.

[Michael J. Donovan]

no need to have a bashing thread or resort to attacking one another...the original thread starter wanted to know how mrusk made out on a job and that is the intent of the thread.

so, please refrain from name calling, etc and keep with the topic of the thread

Thanks

[DLCS]

I don't post very often in this forum cause I don't do hardscapes. But I do like to read posts and see pics of work. Everyone has their own way of doing things some ways are just better than others. The way i see it is different strokes for different folks. The way some of you guys belittle MRusk is just wrong. Let him post what he wants, looks to me like he does excellent work. As long as his customers are happy is what matters.

[AWJ Services]

Guys are way to hard on him.
I enjoy his posts and admire his work.
No ones perfect.

At his age he is off the charts in what he is doing.
Most guys are still spending there parents money at his age.

[bigviclbi]

Seriously enough.Everybody. Let's just wait till he posts pics of the finished product or a finished stage and then everybody can critique/admire his work if they like.

[AztlanLC]

I have no idea how can someone say he does such a nice work when I have never seen any finished product I know Rusk from other forum and he was banned for so many cocky comments and not respecting anybody.
All the pictures he has ever posted are either half way jobs or pictures from so far that you can't actually see the real details and really judge.
Maybe he is as great as he claims to be I don't care all I care is for this forum to not turn into a place where people will only claim to be better then the other or who has the largest and biggest piece of equipment.

[EagleLandscape]

he wouldnt have to be cocky if yall wouldnt be so trigger happy on getting onto people.

[shovelracer]

And who friigin excavates the entire site in one go with winter knocking on the door. Ever heard of starting in the back.....ie to keep site homeowner friendly. We all saw the plans.


I believe the idea was to get the property excavated for two reasons. First was that the driveway needed to be moved to allow for the other work, and it looked like this gave the homeowner somewhere to park while getting work done at the same time. I believe the second reason was based on the belief that the majority of the base needed to be down before the winter freeze. This allows for them to just come in and lay block, even in colder temps. If they would have started in the back, and we have a bad winter it could have delayed the front work and pushed them later into spring. Anyways this is just what I gathered from talking with Matt and reading his intentions on the the other thread. Maybe he'll correct me if I'm wrong.

[mrusk]

What bothers me the most is how you say I am disrespectful to other members. If disrespectful means not worshiping the guy with the most trucks, biggest equipment, etc, I guess I am disrespectful. If disrespectful means not running my company like everyone else I guess I must be disrespectfull.

[JGreen]

Hello everyone, i am new to posting at this forums but have read over this site for a year or two. I am in Western Maryland and we work throughout the winter under tents and tarps. The hardest thing I found to do was keeping material unfrozen. For this we usually fill our dump the night before and park in our heated shop. This is a project we completed last week in the weather.

[JGreen]

Here's some more....in the one pic where the walk meets the drive, the walk was not tamped when the pic was taken so thats why there is a lip.

[DVS Hardscaper]

For cryin out loud, is this the only thing you tyrants can find wrong is that someone is working in the WINTER???

Folks, we are in MD. Not far from NJ. In a part of MD that is known to be a "snow belt".

And for the last 8 years.....we have worked year round.

The only thing that stops us is frozen soil and or mud.


And you pros wanna know something?? NJ is what, maybe 1.5 hrs away from us. The last 2 to 3 weeks the temps have been over 45-degrees. Last week we had a couple 70-degree days.

Pros, just because it is January - does not mean WE CAN'T work!
Infact, our zone changed. Whatever zone we were - has be re-classified due to a change in the winter climate.

We do our base prep when the soil is not frozen. It could be frozen on wednesday....but come Monday - chances of it being thawed are pretty good.

We too, park our trucks inside a shop overnight.

We have been working year round TROUBLE-FREE for 8 years. No re-dos. No call backs. NO PROBLEMS PERIOD. And I have NO intentions of stopping this practice. (but you do need to exercise common sense)

If you wanna flame MRUSK - find something legit to flame him on.

If you have nothin better to do than sit around and dwell on MRUSK - then I pitty some of you! The time some of you spend dwelling in the dude, could be better spent at the gym on a treadmill getting healthy. :weightlifter:

[GradeMan]

no not dwelling, Just curious on the pay off on working through the winter

[GradeMan]

jgreen looks great

[JGreen]

Working through winter weather is tough but you have to prepare. not only with material but with the estimate. Always add more time and material for winter work. Winter estimates should always add plastic/tarps, fuel for heaters and expect wasted base material due to freezing. believe me, its not a cakewalk but can be done.

[kreft]

Jgreen- Is that your new holland? Where did ya get it?

[JGreen]

it is a L180, got it from addison farm equipment in addison PA

[GradeMan]

So customers do in your neck of the woods don't mind paying more for winter work? how much snow do you get? Do you make less then what you would in the summer? :canadaflag:

[roguesuerte]

Its all about windows of opportunity in the Northeast. We are about halfway through a poolscape job I hope to wrap up mid-week next week. We really count on the snow anymore, to cover our winter overhead because most years are hit-or-miss.

[kootoomootoo]

I believe the idea was to get the property excavated for two reasons. First was that the driveway needed to be moved to allow for the other work, and it looked like this gave the homeowner somewhere to park while getting work done at the same time. I believe the second reason was based on the belief that the majority of the base needed to be down before the winter freeze. This allows for them to just come in and lay block, even in colder temps. If they would have started in the back, and we have a bad winter it could have delayed the front work and pushed them later into spring. Anyways this is just what I gathered from talking with Matt and reading his intentions on the the other thread. Maybe he'll correct me if I'm wrong.


In 6 weeks he has built one and a half walls, made a trip to las vegas, a trip to dallas....could it be we are waiting on a new foreman who knows what to do. Logic ...if i do a lot of demo work, lay some cookie cutter block(sorry Mat i forgot this isnt cookie cutter) I buy some time to get someone to do the marble.

[mattfromNY]

I dont do any hardscaping, but always checking out the good work found on the site. I'm curious about you guys working 'under tarps and tents', do you use insulating blankets, like concrete blankets, to keep your work area from freezing? Just curious, b/c I've never seen any in any of the pics. Possibly there are pros/ cons to using them that I dont know about?
Thanks,
Matt.

[GradeMan]

bump de bumpo

[DUSTYCEDAR]

the weather was great last week 70 in jan is always a nice treat
i was looking foward to some more shots of the work

[John Zaprala]

I am guilty as charged for commenting on Rusk's work, but my reasoning is only bc we work in PA through the winter. Previously mentioned, in the NE we have "windows of opportunity" here. If you have work, by all means there is no reason to NOT be working during these mild times of winter. But I DO have a problem when someone acts like no one else is working in the winter on a job of this scale. A "professional" would take the weather, job scheduling, vacation scheduling into account when planning a job of this scale. A "professional" doesn't boast of himself, but rather takes criticism and learns from it. Sometimes it seems Matt is not here to learn, but rather brag sometimes. We were all his age once and I just feel he needs to mature a little if he wants to portray himself as a "professional." A lot of the problems he's encountering were easily avoidable and no one can deny that.

[mrusk]

Someone did not go to texas.

[etwman]

No...but the Giants certainly did.

Well said John. See you at MAHTS?

[mrusk]

....................

[DVS Hardscaper]

I'm not here to defend anyone or flame anyone, but I must say I think the work in the pictures in the recent post above this one - looks pretty darn good. Mitering of the 45-degree corners looks decent.

Except...the 2nd flight of steps is concerning. Seems there isn't anything to support the right side of the steps?

[shovelracer]

Man that strip around the pool must have been miserable. Looks like we get to see some marble soon?

[mrusk]

Man that strip around the pool must have been miserable. Looks like we get to see some marble soon?

Lets just say there is about 30 man hours between forming, pouring, mortaring, grouting and calking the expansion joint. Lotta $$ for that 4 inch strip.


Marble starts going down tommorrow. I finshed the majority of the base today and have a nice pile of concrete sand waiting for me.

I was soo happy to wake up to no snow today.


DVS- 2nd flight of stairs is tricky. There was not enough room to do a 2nd wall tear on that side and still allow room to walk from backyard to side yard . Once it is graded off it should be find. LA says grade will work as he did the grading plan. Steps are built full pedestal method with 6inch versa loc as fill block.

[John Zaprala]

Nice work Matt.

[mrusk]

OH btw place is like majorly cleaned up. Filled a 10 yard dumpster up the other day. All the pallets of material will be used up in a few days. I only have a few more truck loads of agergate to order then after that the place should look pretty clean.

[shovelracer]

Glad to see things are starting to come together for you. I like the pool expasion joint a lot. Is the second flight build pedestal as well, if so how far down is the first course?

[kootoomootoo]

Good job...where did all those guys come from...

[SOUTHERNGREENSCAPES]

Matt, I know that I am as guilty as anyone in giving you heck, and a good bit of it was probally justified, but i have to say that it says a lot that you have taken the critisism to heart, cleaned up the job site, gotten some help in there and made forward progress. You always seemed to come across as a know it all and this shows that you are willing to take critisism and learn from it.

Best of luck with the rest of the project.

[lawncare18]

Yea matt I gota give ya some credit looks like youve goten some help and gettng it done faster now. Glad also you got the site cleaned up.

[mrusk]

All the credit should go to my guys. Somehow i am pretty bad at the actuall work but know how to get the right results and know what looks good/right. When i try to do something, it takes my guys twice as long to fix it.

Yea turns out i did not have to go all the way to texas to recruit workers.. Saved myself a trip.

We have about 2 weeks give or take until we close down for the winter. All hardscaping will be completly except some work on the front walks and stoops since the slabs have not left india or whatever country over there its suppose to be coming from. In the spring we will pull out the last 200 yards of dirt, send in the beligum block, irrigation, lighting, and fence subs. Somehere in between them we will do the plantings and sod. Then the asphalt will go down. If everyone gets in on time, we should finsh this one out in 3 weeks once the weather breaks.

[jonmcmeen]

All the credit should go to my guys.

Credit goes to who.....???

You OWE ME ONE for that little phone number I gave you awhile ago................You know what I am talking about. (I.e. you lose one to Mexico--- you gain one from Honduras...)

Nice work Rusk! I love that Techo!

Jon

[PlatinumLandCon]

OH btw place is like majorly cleaned up. Filled a 10 yard dumpster up the other day. All the pallets of material will be used up in a few days. I only have a few more truck loads of agergate to order then after that the place should look pretty clean.

Atta boy! I know lots of us work in an "organized mess" but at the end of the day, the client still thinks its a mess. The effort you put into doing this will make you appear much more clean and professional even if it made no difference to your schedule or work efficiency. My shop (house garage:laugh:) is a definite culprit of this "organized mess" situation but I still get things done easily.

[mrusk]

Credit goes to who.....???

You OWE ME ONE for that little phone number I gave you awhile ago................You know what I am talking about. (I.e. you lose one to Mexico--- you gain one from Honduras...)

Nice work Rusk! I love that Techo!

Jon



Okay alot of credit goes to JONMCMEEN. And it Guatamalo.

[jonmcmeen]

I will take a Hamburger with fries at the Sparta Diner. I think it will be like $7.......lol!

Jon:cool2:

[mrusk]

I will take a Hamburger with fries at the Sparta Diner. I think it will be like $7.......lol!

Jon:cool2:

We do not go there anymore. Turns out Boston Market has better food.

[kootoomootoo]

How much is the irrigation...

[mrusk]

Off the top of my head I think irrigation was around 7200. Small lawn but we have a ton of drip.

[mrusk]

Well today was a good day.

My guys laid almost 1000 sq ft of the marble today. Not bad for 2 guys laying with one labor and me as quality control! Marble is almost perfect height wise, there are just some minor issues with the widths and legths on the 8x8 squares and 8x16s. Even when i laid expensive marble tile inside we always had issues. So ofcourse we ran a ton of string lights. Every 4 feet in both directions we ran a line.

[mrusk]

Note i took these pics around 2.30 and then left the job site. So when my guys left at 5 they had around 1k laid.

We even had to go buy green string line since we kept tripping over the white.

[neversatisfiedj]

What are you laying the marble on ?

[mrusk]

What are you laying the marble on ?

Depending where you are standing 3-6 feet of quarry process base and then a inch of concrete sand. 400 ton base.

[neversatisfiedj]

Yeah I remember you saying how much of an overdig you were doing.

[mrusk]

Yeah I remember you saying how much of an overdig you were doing.

The overdig was not to bad. I had that figured out good. It was the amount of base the 'fill' side of the backyard was going to take. I was off ont he # of trucks, but i over estimate the price by a truckload 25% for agergate since i was working in a new area and was not sure how trucking was going to work. I ended up getting aggergate 100 less per a triaxle then when i work near home base.

So i the end i think it worked out in my favor a hair. Its not all modified. Some areas have 2 feet of 3/4clean wrapped in geotexitle.

[kootoomootoo]

Might be just me but i'd lay clear plastic down to keep dirt off the marble while you work and have the guys walk on plywood to distribute the load.

[TheKingNJ]

looks good.

[AztlanLC]

Well I have to admit it that is looking good now.

[PlatinumLandCon]

There ya go, post some pics and everyone shuts up. Lookin good man!

[pcs]

Do you tamp the marble like you do pavers?

[waltero]

I have a question about this job. I am assuming that you will not get any interlock with the marble because it just isn't thick enough and I see some very small pieces there. Don't you think that you will get some shifting once it is done? I think it looks great, but that doesn't look like it will hold up over time.

I have done some devonstone installations and this looks very similiar to that type of construction (slabs) vs pavers. I used the motar/sand mix that they sell and it forms a solid but flexible base for the slabs. I would think that you would have to do something like that on this site also. I could be wrong but I don't think that I would of built it that way, but we are all here to learn and maybe I will learn something here.

[clandscaper]

Mrusk,

Why not lay the marble on a concrete pad and mortar the pieces in place? It seems like for the amount of fill you brought it might have been worth it to wet lay the marble so that way it stays put forever, especially with the price of the materials.

[GradeMan]

Sweet looking , Doesn't look like you have had any snow, Wish I could be doing hardscape now.

[mrusk]

We got some good questions.

We are NOT running the plate compactor over the marble once it is layed. The marble is 1 and 3/8s inches thick. We installed the marble on 1 inch of uncompacted sand. We set the stone a little high so once it gets walked on it will 'set' into the sand. Techo polymeric sand will go into the joints. Once the edging goes on i am positive it will not move. I installed 2500 sq feet of devon stone with this method 2 years ago and it has no moved. I have done numerous thermal bluestone jobs in the last year with this method with no proablems to day. Majority peices in this pattern are the 16x24 and 16x16. Those peices are rather heavy and have mass on their side.

There are as many importers of this type of stone in the country as their are paver manufactures. Between the different shows i belive i talked to 5 or 6 importers. They are installing a ton of this for dry laid applications in the northeast.

Originally we were going to do wet laid. However, production goes from 400 sq feet a day per a installer to around 100. I belive i was atleast 20k higher for wetlay. You still would of had to do the initial overdig.

[mrusk]

Oh yea. Here are some pics. We have about 400 sq feet to lay tommorrow. Then about 35 feet of cuts. Yes thats right. I lucked out and laid 2000 sq feet of stone with only 35 feet of cuts. The patio just runs out natural into the lawn. Then we are working squares of grass into the permiter 4 or 5 feet of the patio to blend the two areas together.

[bigviclbi]

MRUSK is that what you guys call concrete sand up in North Jersey? We call it stone dust. I've used it instead of concrete sand and thinks its fine, just wondering.

[mrusk]

MRUSK is that what you guys call concrete sand up in North Jersey? We call it stone dust. I've used it instead of concrete sand and thinks its fine, just wondering.

Most certainly is NOT stone dust. Concrete sand is very hard to find in my area since most guys sware by stone dust. No landscape supply yards sell concrete sand. There are two redi mix plants/quarries that will sell it to me. Depending on which place i get it from, the color varries. I will snap a close up of it tommorrow.

[bigviclbi]

Damn I'll need to see a closeup cause it sure doesn't look like the concrete sand I use. I think stonedust was fine the times I used it but it was always for applications such as bluestone where I didn't tamp it. Looks great, are those ANDES pavers?

[mrusk]

Damn I'll need to see a closeup cause it sure doesn't look like the concrete sand I use. I think stonedust was fine the times I used it but it was always for applications such as bluestone where I didn't tamp it. Looks great, are those ANDES pavers?



I'll snap a pic tommorrow. I could mail ya 2 onces of it.

No they are not andes pavers. They were bought from a local stone importer. It has a very cool finsh on it, i will try to get a close up of a peice too. Its unlike anything all the big importers are selling. I know, i have samples from 5 different guys in my garage.

[shovelracer]

How do you intend to cut the marble. I've had poor luck with dry cutting on the few pieces Ive had to cut. Also I bet however cuts the lawn is gonna be real miserable. I see some green slabs in the homeowners future. Looks good though. Matt check your PM.

[mrusk]

How do you intend to cut the marble. I've had poor luck with dry cutting on the few pieces Ive had to cut. Also I bet however cuts the lawn is gonna be real miserable. I see some green slabs in the homeowners future. Looks good though. Matt check your PM.

There won't be any green slabs because its going to be atleast a 1k a month maintenance bill. This project is not getting turned over to a lawn jockey.

Both the front walkways have grass joints, but we are using a black stone for those areas.

[waltero]

mrusk,

I would put these pieces around 4"-5" and there are more then a couple. I would imagine these would move without more support. I'm not trying to bust you on this, I just wouldn't of done it like this.

I would think that if a piece of furniture or the leg of a chair got on the edge of a smaller square it could lift it. You really don't have the interlock that you would get with a paver and that is where I think you are vunerable.

It looks great and everything else looks good.


Walter

[mrusk]

They are 7.5x7.5.

Walter how would you of done the install?

[waltero]

Matt,

I probably would have used the ProPak (motar/sand) mix that is used with the devonstone. Once it gets wet, the motar sets up and becomes a firm surface for the slabs. It is still flexible enough for the freeze/thaw cycles but will not move. It can't migrate or shift under the slabs and if a table or some other force catches the slab at a corner it will stay. I have never done an install your way with the slabs so I can't say what will happen. I have installed the devonstone with the ProPak and I can tell you that those slabs aren't going anywhere.



This is right from EP Henry's website:

*EP Henry’s new ProPak SB is a specially designed and blended product recommended for the setting bed used in DevonStone, slab and
stone installations. A precise ratio of Type I Portland cement and ASTM C33 sand, ProPak SB ensures a solid setting bed every time while
still having the flexibility needed to withstand freeze/thaw conditions and the permeability needed to ensure proper drainage and polymeric
sand performance. One bag of ProPak SB covers approximately 8 sf @ 1” deep



It may be an option for you in the future.

[kootoomootoo]

Ok who sees major call backs in Matts future.

[P.Services]

my dad and i did a good size patio kinda like that a few years ago. we cut the tiles out of 2.5'' thick limestone, some we cut big some we had to cut small. it was the first patio we ever did so we did it just like rusk and have had a bunch of problems with it. should have done it in mortar.

[SOUTHERNGREENSCAPES]

One question i have. Earlier you stated that you were not running a plate compactor on the surface. You were relying on foot traffic to compress the bedding sand. How would you get even settling/compaction across the patio since most traffic will be in the same spot all the time. it seems like some will sit lower than others and give a wavy effect. Help me understand b/c i am lost or misunderstanding.

[ChampionLS]

On a large patio job like that, where there is no vehicular traffic and it's 100% recreation only, you really don't need to compact anything. There is not a lot of bedding sand (probably 1" or less) and it will evenly compact over time from use. We've done jobs where there are lots of cuts and/or at times custom made circle kits/fans. I've opted to omit the tamping on critical areas to avoid scuffing/shifting of smaller pieces.

[mrusk]

Guys i am not saying i am right and your wrong or anything, but i have not had trouble with this method in the past. The stones are laid tight. There is not much room for them to go anywhere.

I CAN STILL RUN the compactor over them with plywood if i feel it is neccessary. I left enough height along the pool for compaction. So its really not a big deal either way.

Just won't get tamped now. Bedding sand is frozen. Infact the marble is froze to the bedding sand so i don't have to worry about it moving right now anyways!

[pj550v12]

I think because of shadows it's slightly deceiving how much space there is. It looks as though because of the position of the sun in the pics, the slightest variation in height is casting a dark shawow that looks like space between the pieces. As long as EVERYTHING is tight, i dont see much of a problem with shifting either.

[AztlanLC]

Here we go again hes Matt and does all his ways some of us might not agree with that but if he's paying his bills who cares at least I have to admit that by posting some real pictures he shut my mouth

[MJK]

On a large patio job like that, where there is no vehicular traffic and it's 100% recreation only, you really don't need to compact anything. There is not a lot of bedding sand (probably 1" or less) and it will evenly compact over time from use. We've done jobs where there are lots of cuts and/or at times custom made circle kits/fans. I've opted to omit the tamping on critical areas to avoid scuffing/shifting of smaller pieces.


I agree 100%, we never run the compactor over the pavers like that, no need. We never have had a problem.

[pj550v12]

Matt, question. I know know much about marble for outdoor applications, or in general. Is there any concern with using it in a place like you are around a pool? I guess my question is hows the traction when its wet? (Little kids running and jumping is what comes to mind) Obviously it's not a mirrored finish, but I'm just curious.

[pcs]

How much does this marble cost? Per sq ft.

[etwman]

I can tell you based on experience that travertine (or marble) can get very slippery, almost dangerous in a pool application environment. The last one we did we mixed in small amount of sand additive with the color enhancer. It didn't take away from the sheen or appearance but it did give just enough traction so that it wasn't dangerous when wet. I've seen people fall flat on their face with this stuff when wet without adding a sand additive.

[mrusk]

I can tell you based on experience that travertine (or marble) can get very slippery, almost dangerous in a pool application environment. The last one we did we mixed in small amount of sand additive with the color enhancer. It didn't take away from the sheen or appearance but it did give just enough traction so that it wasn't dangerous when wet. I've seen people fall flat on their face with this stuff when wet without adding a sand additive.

First time i ever heard this. This is not travertine it is marble. They are different and have different compositions and properties. But still i ahve always seen these types of products marketed for pool decks because they do not heat up in the sun and are non skid when wet.

Marble and travertine and used around almost every high end project pool project. If it was a real hazard it would not be so popular.

[kootoomootoo]

So not one of you guys walks on plywood when you lay your pavers.

Interesting.

[mrusk]

So not one of you guys walks on plywood when you lay your pavers.

Interesting.

We are not laying pavers anywhere on my job site.

[kootoomootoo]

We are not laying pavers anywhere on my job site.

Pavers are twice the thickness....... figured it out yet.

[shovelracer]

Even twice the thickness in those sizes would be slabs. Sorry couldnt resist. Not trying to start an argument over aspect ratio.

[bobcat_ron]

That's one hell of a job going on there, and to take something like that on at this god awful time of the year takes guts and determination.

[mrusk]

That's one hell of a job going on there, and to take something like that on at this god awful time of the year takes guts and determination.



No going from cutting 10 lawns a week to projects like this in 3 years takes guts and determination.

I have 2 or 3 more days of work left and i am done till march. I need a freaking break!

[P.Services]

No going from cutting 10 lawns a week to projects like this in 3 years takes guts and determination.

I have 2 or 3 more days of work left and i am done till march. I need a freaking break!

and the ego is back!!!! carefull on that one dont throw your arm out

[roguesuerte]

Heave/thaw in our area, thin nature of product(as opposed to pavers) callbacks almost a given.

[kootoomootoo]

I cant wait to see how you get all the stains off.

[bigviclbi]

"I cant wait to see how you get all the stains off." Alright now you are sounding like a grumpy old man. Its ok to criticize construction techniques, but now you are getting over his product choice, which I bet you have never laid, and the homeowner wanted. As for dry laying this product, all the installers in my area have dry laid it as well. Will it last ten years, i don't know? But that is the manafacturers installation recommendations that he is following. Some people on here must have had some overbearing fathers:hammerhead:

[DVS Hardscaper]

Some of you are really hateful individuals.

I'm not here to talk about myself. But I can relate to Mrusk.

No, I do not care for some of Rusk's big headedness. But then again, at this point Mrusk knows what buttons to push and I think he types certain things just some some of you get your girdles in a twist. At another message board, we call it: "throw a stick kand watch the monkeys scream".

Anyway, I'm 36. I started this business many moons ago back in highschool. My senior year, I was making as much money mowing grass as my teachers were making teaching. Ok, B.F.D., I know. When I was in my 20's, nothing stood in my way. We did work of all kinds of sizes. And we did it ALL very WELL. (and I even partied my butt off 3 nights a week!) Now that I look back at the work we did, I often think to myself "I can't believe we did that, I was fearless".

A couple weeks ago I was talking with another local contractor. He said to me "I'm young, I'm 26, I can take this responsibility".

Folks, I would hate to have to compete with a young businessman. Because I know how I was. I was a go-getter. I was determined. I was focused. And I had no personal responsibilities (family, mortgage, etc). which means I had time to pursue my dreams, I could focus hard on building the business and making sales (and still have an active social life). We had back to back work. And I was making money.

Folks - I feel competency is far more important than age. If I hear one more thing about "AGE", I'm going to strangle some of you!

If the work looks good - then it looks good.

If the client selected a certain material - then thats what they want. They are the ones that will see it through their windows everday. Not us! If there's a problem...they can pay to redo it.

[PlatinumLandCon]

DVS, you pretty much summed it up. I think this is why lots of "flippers" are under 30 and own 7 properties because they're fearless. I'm 17 so I can relate to the "no financial commitments" aspect of things. I try not to undercut everyone and try to keep in line with everything as I can. I plan on going to college for construction management and will take night school courses starting soon for horticulture to make sure I'm fully educated with the plant aspect of things.

As for when you started, I seem to be following a similar path. I think in '09 (my graduating year), I'll make more than most teachers and drive a nicer vehicle. It isn't entirely about the money for me now, its about growing a business and really learning how to run things so after college I have the experience. That's another mistake Matt made IMO. College will be super beneficial in the long run, even if you hate school and classes.

[pj550v12]

I try not to undercut everyone and try to keep in line with everything as I can.

This is one of the beauties of being a young buisness owner with not too many financial obligations. Follow me here. A lot of people get mad at other companies for "low balling" and while I'm not denying some do, some of you people are missing out on the bigger picture. Smaller companies, especially those owned by young adults with no financial obligations have less overhead, so in turn, they're not lowballing or undercutting THEY'RE CHARGING FAIRLY!. I'm not talking about the companies that will excavate 4 inches deep, and lay an inch of stonedust to place pavers on, those are just jackas*es and deserve to be put out of buisness, but these younger companies are smart for taking advantage of the opportunity to charge less and offer comparable, if not better work. This is something it seems as though Matt took advantage of, and while it doesn't make up for his often (as it seems) inflated ego, it does give him some credibilty in the buisness world, and he deserves at least some credit for that, all feelings set aside.

[mrusk]

Who started the rumor I was working cheap?? I was cheap on the first couple jobs I did until I had accurate production #s for my company. I am very expensive now. I am not fair, I am not resonable. I want top dollar for everything I do.

[PlatinumLandCon]

Who started the rumor I was working cheap?? I was cheap on the first couple jobs I did until I had accurate production #s for my company. I am very expensive now. I am not fair, I am not resonable. I want top dollar for everything I do.

That wasn't the point. It was a general point about younger business owners. Obviously it doesn't apply to everyone.

[pj550v12]

Who started the rumor I was working cheap?? I was cheap on the first couple jobs I did until I had accurate production #s for my company. I am very expensive now. I am not fair, I am not resonable. I want top dollar for everything I do.

I think you're the only one who said something about you working cheap. If you're refering to my comment, no where in there did I say anything about cheap, I did however mention the difference between two companies overhead, and their ability to charge LESS, not cheap.

[mrusk]

DVS, you pretty much summed it up. I think this is why lots of "flippers" are under 30 and own 7 properties because they're fearless. I'm 17 so I can relate to the "no financial commitments" aspect of things. I try not to undercut everyone and try to keep in line with everything as I can. I plan on going to college for construction management and will take night school courses starting soon for horticulture to make sure I'm fully educated with the plant aspect of things.

As for when you started, I seem to be following a similar path. I think in '09 (my graduating year), I'll make more than most teachers and drive a nicer vehicle. It isn't entirely about the money for me now, its about growing a business and really learning how to run things so after college I have the experience. That's another mistake Matt made IMO. College will be super beneficial in the long run, even if you hate school and classes.



Its to early to tell if not going to college is going to hurt me. If i went to college i would be graduating this spring. One of the main reason i did not want to go off to college was because i did not want to push my dreams of starting a landscaping business off 4 years. 4 years seemed like an internity back when i was in HS. Now that i look back, i have no idea where the time went.


I have learned an incrediable amount of information in the last 3 years that i owned a business. I would not trade those 3 years for anything. I could not imagine those 3 years wrapped up into a college course.

[shovelracer]

Its a tough one Matt. I remember when I was your age and all my friends started graduating. Most got pretty good jobs right away, but a few went back to working at the gap, or wherever. All this is going on and I said man that time really flew I could have done that. Actually I did do some college and have a degree from Chubb, but that doesnt count. I also have many hours in landscape education including the most recent ICPI. Bottom line was I couldnt do that. I always excelled at school, but never needed to try. I got all As and Bs in HS but never studied and hated all of it. Now I make more than most people my age and didnt incur the 100K bill.

Problem now is that we are the end of a dying breed. More and more landscape companies are showing up will a full staff of horticulturists, engineers, etc. The industry is starting to get real professional compared to years gone by. You might even see a state requirement for education by the time we retire.

[mrusk]

Problem now is that we are the end of a dying breed. More and more landscape companies are showing up will a full staff of horticulturists, engineers, etc. The industry is starting to get real professional compared to years gone by. You might even see a state requirement for education by the time we retire.

Yea and i will higher those guys.

[lawncare18]

Yea and i will higher those guys.

Yea you can try to hire guys out of school but rem .. there is some big paying jobs out there for guys with educations 80,000 100,000 plus and also rem this will these guys chase you out of the business down the road ?? Will homeowners want guys with educations to do work more talanted etc down the road??? Times could be changing for the worst?? Guys wiht more education usually in this field chase the other guys out.

[shovelracer]

.. there is some big paying jobs out there for guys with educations 80,000 100,000

Thats what they tell you in school, but then you get in the real world and you are lucky to start out at 35-45K. Got to work your way up from there. Very few 22 year olds are making 80K. Most have to put in years or get a masters, PHD, ect.

[KTM]

I'am not trying to down college educatiom, my wife has one, but it is not always the answer. Most of my good freinds who have a education will be the first to say that they never use what they learned, and are not in a job feild that they studied for. I think that Tech education is a better choice.

[PlatinumLandCon]

I'am not trying to down college educatiom, my wife has one, but it is not always the answer. Most of my good freinds who have a education will be the first to say that they never use what they learned, and are not in a job feild that they studied for. I think that Tech education is a better choice.

Lots of people I know have gone to University for a 4 year program only to get a job for 2-3 years making 40K, THEN realising when they're 25 or 26 that they need a college education (2 years) on something specific to a job they want to take.

Lots of people get a BA from university and then go on to realise that the job options aren't what they were told they were going to be.

[SOUTHERNGREENSCAPES]

here is my scoop.

When your grandparents were college age a HS diploma got you a good job.
when you parents were college age a BS diploma got you a good job.
now a days, a MBA gets you a good job.

I don't know where it could go from here, but when your parents were in college years, the amount of people with BS degrees were a lot less than now. It seems like everyone has a college degree now a days. if you want to stand out, you either have to sacrifice yourself and be willing to work crazy hours and travel where they want you or you have to have a MBA or specialty degree like computer programming.

[mrusk]

My brother was 2nd in his HS class. Went to University of Chicago and got a 160k education. Told everyone he'd be making 125k first year out. Then met some religous chick and started going to chruch. Then had some reverlation that money is not everying and got a job teaching at a private school for 30k a year!! hah

[KTM]

I know a few people that have college educations, that are young that make realy good money, The downfall is that they are away from home more than they are at home. My sister and brother in law travel all week, at airports 4+ times a week, I could never handle that, if you ad up your REAL hours you are not making as much as you think. Just like over the road truck driving, you can make good money but add up what you make an hour, you dont make much. College is a great idea for some people but it still does not make you a skilled tradesman because you have a degree. I have been on a few house framing jobs where there is engineers trying to tell you how to build the roof on a chopped up complicated roof. A good carpenter with years under his belt will know more.

[shovelracer]

I agree that schooling isnt everything. Some of the dumbest people ive ever met were 4.0 college graduates. Books cant teach you real world experience. College is more of a right of passage. Its more about showing that you can put time into it and stick through it. Now obviously there are exemptions and each school is different. My brother went to cornell and got a lot of hands on training for his engineering major. He was able to get a real good job after, but that is pretty rare. I know he worked his butt off for it. My other brother was an accounting major and didnt get anywhere near as much hands on and he even got his masters. He had a large learning curve out of school. However both of them at least use there majors. If you are a communications major odds are you arent going to use it. Part of the problem is how is an 18 year old supposed to know what they want to do for the rest of their life. Very few actually get it, and most live such sheltered lives that by the time they get to college all they want to do is party and get some action. I think though that in the future you are gonna see more tech related degrees available, especially since quite a few "white collar" jobs are being outsourced out of the country.

[Firefly Prof. Lighting]

My brother was 2nd in his HS class. Went to University of Chicago and got a 160k education. Told everyone he'd be making 125k first year out. Then met some religous chick and started going to chruch. Then had some reverlation that money is not everying and got a job teaching at a private school for 30k a year!! hah

Good for him. If all your life is about is making money, you are a very shallow person indeed. All a job or money is, (or should be in my opinion) is a catalyst to allow us to do the things in life that are truly worthwhile and lasting. You never hear anybody on their deathbed say "I just wish I had made more money".

[pj550v12]

Same as KTM said. My friends who did get degrees are in jobs now making pretty good money for their first year out 50-70k, but they now have nooo life. Up at 5, home at 8. The prospect of big money was enticing, but they're peons and will be for a long time unfortionatly.

[IndyChad]

I don't believe you can paint this topic with a wide brush. It is all about what you do with your degree or your life in general. I can honestly say that without my college degrees I would not be where I am now, but I do know individuals that have a masters degree and are not doing anything with it. It is all about the individual and the motivation that they have. In any case it is always good and recommended to educate yourself even if you do not go to college.

[monty33]

It does not matter what you know if you can't get it done. That is something an old friend used to tell me. Most of you guys are evaluating a college experience in correlation to financial success. If you are in your teens or twenties and begin to invest (wisely) a modest amount of money every month with discipline, you could retire by 40 with a 30-40k a year job. No one teaches you that in our society, they want you to buy fancy cars, spend on credit, and work till you die. Compounding interest will change your entire realm, or at least make cutting that lawn or flagstone more for enjoyment than economic necessity. Southernscapes is pretty accurate, if you don't get a 6-8 year degree, competition will be aggressive.

[kootoomootoo]

What price do you put on not setting your alarm clock for the last 15 years ....priceless.

[clcare2]

I have 2 college grads running mowers for me.

I was a bored C student in high school.

A piece of paper isn't worth anything if you don't have the motivation to use it.

[mattfromNY]

I believe in life it is more of WHO you know, than WHAT you know. I have a AAS degree, but lawn care and business are not what I went to school for.
I have gotten alot farther in life knowing the right people, than by having a degree.
I would still point a young man or woman to common trades classes, even if at a community college, such things as entry level business/ accounting, economics, general studies. I took electives like welding, keyboarding (I know, taught in HS now, not when I was in school), economics, and others in college. Some of what I learned has been very useful.
I still try to attend classes at the local community college every now and again, just took a small business session. I made some contacts at the class, too for some commercial work! (There again, not what I know, but who. Just gotta be in the right place at the right time sometimes)

[Tom B.]

Not to carry on with college vs. no college, but the facts are this. College graduates earn more money than non-grads over a 40 yr period. Now, if you decided not to go to college, took the money it would have cost and invested it, worked a job you enjoyed (and payed the bills), you would have a really, really nice nest egg sitting there. But, how many of you did that. How many of you were ever told this?
I was very fortunate to be able to go to college and get a degree which I use everyday. The cost of an education today is quite expensive and can be a huge burden on new grads. I graduated almost 11 years ago and the cost of my tuition for all 4 years was less than what 1 year costs at most universities today. College is definitely not for everyone, especially when you're only 18. Who knows what they want to do for the rest of their life at that age. Luckily, I chose wisely (didn't chase the $$$) and enjoy my job(most days). Does getting a college education guarantee you'll be successful? No. Does not getting an education guarantee you won't be successful? No. It's up to you, Life is what You make it!

[mag360]

My brother was 2nd in his HS class. Went to University of Chicago and got a 160k education. Told everyone he'd be making 125k first year out. Then met some religous chick and started going to chruch. Then had some reverlation that money is not everying and got a job teaching at a private school for 30k a year!! hah

He is a lucky guy. Ambition is one of the things that give us purpose in life and his ambition is just toward something other than money (and more fulfilling)

[SOUTHERNGREENSCAPES]

I graduated from college with a BS in Marketing. I thought that i wanted to go into outside sales and travel. I started out selling copiers. that is like selling cars. it sucks You go around cold calling 25-30 new business a day. Granted you can make a killing doing it, but you almost have to sell your soul to be successful. I came right out of college making $75k plus and was living the highlife. then I lost interest in selling myself in a way that i was not approving of and lost that job. At the time it was the worst thing that could happen to me. I was 2mths into my new marriage and unemployeed for 9mths. needless to say i got real depressed and started living a lot less frivilous lifestyle. I still say to this day that was the best thing that happened to me. My style of living these days is much lower, but i have to say my level of satisfaction with myself and my quality of life is much better. Degrees can get your foot in the door but it is passion that carries you the rest of the way. I didn't have passion for what i was doing so it was short lived. i now run my own company and make a pritty decent living. I work real hard for what i have, but i appreciate it more. I would never take away my college career. It was a wonderful time in my life. I had a great time and learned a lot. From books and from life. the good thing is that a degree in Marketing has helped me greatly in starting my own busienss and promoting myself, but i hope my passion for this industry continues to grow as fast as it has for the past two years. If someone asked me if they should go to college, i would tell them in a minute to do it. it is a wonderful experience if you can manage it. If you let it get out of control then you will sink real fast. But if you manage it, you will have something to grow on that you just would never understand starting life right out of high school. It also has to do with the fact that i moved out of my parents house when i was 20yrs old to go off to college and never looked back and never asked for their help. i was my own man.

[P.Services]

geez guys please stay on this subject of schooling i have been trying to figure out what to do with my life for awhile and this is helping bring up some good points. im thinking about selling all my stuff and going to college and then going to work for davey tree or brickman. my buddies boss at davey pulls 160k and that sounds pretty good to me with retirement and health insurance and less stress then trying to concur the world on my own. i just dont know what i want to do for the rest of my life but being 20 i feel like every one of my friends in school are leaving me behind, landscaping and excavating are the only things that interest me right now because thats all i have ever been around i just dont know if that will change. any help or thoughts on this?

[lawncare18]

go to school.. lets say you fall and break your back and your business falls apart .. without schooling you have nothing .. if you got some school atleast you can hopefully go into somehting else.. Id say go to school your making a smart choice... davey and those big guys love people who go to shcool.

[P.Services]

go to school.. lets say you fall and break your back and your business falls apart .. without schooling you have nothing .. if you got some school atleast you can hopefully go into somehting else.. Id say go to school your making a smart choice... davey and those big guys love people who go to shcool.

yeah i see your point for sure. its nice right now though to see all my buddies freaking out about having no jobs or money and the cost of school, then i open a $5,000 check for snow plowing and watch there jaws drop. at the same time replacing a clutch when its -5 out is no fun when they are all havin a blast at school. two sides to every story i guess.

[KTM]

If you have a chance go to school, just make sure it is a usefull degree, I see to many people go and study for stuff that doesn't make sense. There were a few people earlier that said that you would need a degree someday to be in some of these skilled trades, like hardscaping I just don't think that will ever happen. Go to school it is only a few years of a long life, and as said earlier it will be easier to get into diffrent carears

[mattfromNY]

go to school.. lets say you fall and break your back and your business falls apart .. without schooling you have nothing .. if you got some school atleast you can hopefully go into somehting else.. Id say go to school your making a smart choice... davey and those big guys love people who go to shcool.

I agree. But school doesn't have to be full time, quit your business, hit the books and nothing else.:cry:
Take some night classes, go full time two days a week and run the business the rest of the week, Online classes, Community college, etc.
There are so many avenues available to get education, it doesn't have to be difficult.
I was looking at my local towns' website the other day and noticed a few scholarships/ grants available to small business owners to pursue education.
Also, I've 'written off' most of the small business classes I've taken. Business expense, education. :cool2:

[GroundScapesIncorporated]

Yea and i will higher those guys.

Its hire, matt:)

[AztlanLC]

The other part of college is also the stage, maybe you can work at a young age and by 30 have more money then most grads but you will have miss all those years of study and fun.
I have never regret having fun or doing crazy stuff none of those things I did back then affected my life in a bad way, but the memories will last forever, you will never be young again and many can say Oh I can do those things when I'm 30-40 and don't have to worry financially, well I assure you at tha age is not so fun

[SOUTHERNGREENSCAPES]

I ditto AztlanLC. My college years were awsome. I joined a fraternity and partied my little toosh off while working on school. It is hard to work full time and go to school part time. typically what you do full time will hinder what you do part time. I say go to school, have some fun, maybe get a part time job at a supply house to make some key contacts in the industry and when you get out you will have so much unbridaled passion that you will amaze yourself. I know a lot of you guys on here are young bucks either in HS or right out of HS. You can say that you had a good time in HS, but going "off" to college is a whole new ball game and you will come out a totally different person and look back as who you used to be and will not believe how much you have matured and what all you have done.

[P.Services]

typically what you do full time will hinder what you do part time.

yeah thats the problem, i cant seem to stay 100% into my biz when im going to school part time and at the same time i cant really get into school because the biz needs so much attention. i just feel like im missing out on being a kid, i was so eager to grow up as fast as i could and i dont know why. i had a great girlfriend that kept me having fun like a kid but lost her because i worked to much :cry:. now that shes gone its making me take a step back and think about what i need right now. i think im going to run ads and try to sell all my stuff in the auto and rv trader, it will cover 8 different states so hopefully i can find a buyer. i just know if i keep my stuff i will never get away from it, i will always mow and want to grow the biz. but if i cant sell it maybe i will just park it all and pull the insurance to keep me from working while i go to school.

[SOUTHERNGREENSCAPES]

Heck, i am 33yrs old and started my company two years ago. I have a wonderful wife, little girl and a dog. All the responsibility a man could want. The only down side to it is, unless you are a deadbeat dad/husband, all this will never go away and make room for the fun stuff. do the fun stuff now while you are young and dumb enough to do some of it. You have the rest of your life to grow up and be an adult. the thouht of making money is exciting to most young guys, but those who jump out there and follow thier business dream will a lot of times look back on thier younger days and feel like they missed something. It's like my wife says. Go out and spread your wild oats now so that you don't feel like you missed something down the road. a lot of guys you see out there who are dead beat dads and husbands are that way because they jumped into marriage or kids too young. before they got a chance to go out and have fun. so they want to do that now and a lot of times put it before thier resposibilities. The ones at home tend to suffer.

[IndyChad]

Picasso,

I would also say go to school. Having a business at a young age like yourself will give you an advantage over a lot of your peers in college, for the simple fact that you will be able to take what you learn in your business classes and relate it back to your own business. You have to be the one to decide what you want to do, but like Souther Greenscapes said it has a lot to do with the atmosphere and the social learning aspect of it also. I worked full-time and went to college just to pay for my way, but if you can do it without working full-time, then I would recommend that. Whatever you may decide, just educate yourself one way or the other! I went to college, worked in sales and finance, then started my business two years ago and I am still only 29 years old, so you can get a lot accomplished in a short period of time. Good luck!

[mrusk]

I get a kick about how you guys make it seem that running a business is no fun.

[IndyChad]

Running an Educated business is a whole lot of fun. I hope that you are not getting that running a business is not fun out of the post. College is not for everyone, but from my experience I would encourage anyone that ask to go. There is no way you can tell me that a degree in Business Admin., Landscape Design, and four years of sales and finance cannot improve your business skills. As earlier stated college is not for everyone, but education is for everyone.

[mrusk]

I spend ALOT of money on courses and seminars throughout the year. I am a firm beliver in education. There are several different ways to get that education.

[P.Services]

I get a kick about how you guys make it seem that running a business is no fun.

i dont think running a biz is the hardest thing in the world nor do i think its the most fun thing to do. i love it when things are going great but trucks breaking all the time and bills and bills and stress gets old after awhile. rusk if you think biz is fun you should get your self a smokin hot girl and take her out for a few glasses of liquid panty remover :cool2: then have your self some fun.:laugh:

[Patatoe1]

So how's the project coming along Rusk?

[mrusk]

So how's the project coming along Rusk?

Well we took the day off to celebrate MLK day. We hyave 2 or 3 more days and thats it for spring. We need to finsh capping the walls and then just do a good clean up and thats it. I am hoping to rap it up in 2 days because i am worn out and need time to close some 08 deals.

[John Zaprala]

Not to continue on this school kick, but I went to PSU for 3 years in Bus. Admin. I knew then I didn't want to be stuck in an office, but knew how to sell my ideas to people. I was working at a nursery part-time while going to school. Once given the opportunity to become a salesman/designer i took the opportunity and haven't looked back. I believe if you have little or no passion for your work then run away as quick as possible and find something you like. But if your passion is your work solely, you're missing out on the better things in life. It's like they say "A bad day fishing is better than a good day at work!

[John Zaprala]

Back to the topic! Matt, I've installed both traventine and marble in both wet and dry lay applications. When we dry laid we used the similar techinique as for pavers with concrete sand and poly for the joints; However, we did run a compactor over the slabs (we use a pad and weaker compactor<3000lbs) We broke one slab out of a 400 sq ft area, not bad for peace of mind. Just a suggestion...
Also, I didn't want to bring it up, but since it has been... marble, traventine, stamped concrete and gloss sealed surfaces should all have some sort of additive for grip in a pool app. It's literally like ice when wet. We tend to use the traventine/marble for either accent borders around pools or areas BY the pool, but not the actual decking (like under a pergola or something) One more thing, I dunno if you're going to be doing the sealing of this patio at some point, but you need to fill in any pits in the slabs (not so much marble as trav.) before sealing so it allows even coverage.

[NNJLandman]

Matt just curious, since you only take on these high end and high priced jobs have you ever considered the consequences if you don't get your money. Just curious because you have said you only want these big projects but what if someone doesn't want to pay you. I just ask because I have a client who doesn't wish to pay me for a 10K project and long story short, i'm only getting reimbursted for my expenses, not making a dollar off my work. So I just was wondering what your thoughts are in taking on these 200K+ projects. I would imagine it would hurt much more.

Jeff

[DVS Hardscaper]

Matt just curious, since you only take on these high end and high priced jobs have you ever considered the consequences if you don't get your money. Just curious because you have said you only want these big projects but what if someone doesn't want to pay you. I just ask because I have a client who doesn't wish to pay me for a 10K project and long story short, i'm only getting reimbursted for my expenses, not making a dollar off my work. So I just was wondering what your thoughts are in taking on these 200K+ projects. I would imagine it would hurt much more.

Jeff

Collect progress payments.

[AintNoFun]

why are you not getting your money?

Matt just curious, since you only take on these high end and high priced jobs have you ever considered the consequences if you don't get your money. Just curious because you have said you only want these big projects but what if someone doesn't want to pay you. I just ask because I have a client who doesn't wish to pay me for a 10K project and long story short, i'm only getting reimbursted for my expenses, not making a dollar off my work. So I just was wondering what your thoughts are in taking on these 200K+ projects. I would imagine it would hurt much more.

Jeff

[mrusk]

There is no way i could afford to take a 200k hit.

The first step to making sure you are going to get paid at the end of the job is making sure you work for the right people. When i go on estimates, i make the potential client know that i am interviewing them as much as they are interviewing me. I may met with a client 6 or more times before we break ground. If i have any feeling whats so ever that i could have proablems getting my money i will walk away. And i have walked away from jobs.

2nd step to getting paid is having a good payment plan. Thirds will not work on a project this size. Its not easy breaking down a job with a large scope of work into equal parts that you know you will complete in a exact order. If stone for one part gets back ordered, you might not be able to get that next payment if the customer whats to get technical.


What i do is get a down payment. To figure out the down payment i take the most expensive part of the project, figure out how much labor and materials i have into it, and make that the down payment. Then i get paid for each item in the scope of work in full at point of resonable completion.


The downpayment gets deducted from the last item. Everything gets said up so the last payment is only a few grand. I belive i have 15 different draws on this job.


This method works for me. I'd rather not take a big down payment on jobs. Its a mental thing. I just do not like getting paid up front for things. Its like i have less ambition to complete the project.


Getting paid is the least of my worries on my jobs. Somehow i have been able to work for some great people. I have done jobs over 50k without contracts. Although thats not the best thing to do.

[NNJLandman]

why are you not getting your money?


Well for starters the guy turned out to be a scumbag and once I get my check youll know who he is because I plan to make it a job to adivse all area contractors about this guy so the same doesn't happen to them. Basically the budget went over by about $1800 and the project changed. This was all explained to him, went from a 3 day project to about 4-5 day project. Instead of installing about 150' of drainage we installed 100' due to the gas line being in the way. He was well adivsed, at the end of everyday if his wife or him weren't available to talk I would call and talk to them or leave a message about the progress changes etc. He'd call and say sounds good jeff yatta yatta. Well all said in done since I didn't have him sign a revised contract(dumb on my part but everyday, week, month, year, hour i learn something). Everything seemed fine finished the job top soil seed. Bill goes out and he flips out on me, gets his relative whos a lawyer who says he doesn't have to pay. Got my lawyer he says under the Home Improvment Act that I'm entitled to my expenses. So after being so PO'd about the whole situation I decided that would be fine, added up everything right down to caution tape and lunch just to be a ball buster and my lawyer sent him a nice letter along with the "revised" bill. So I'm waiting on it now hopefully he is somewhat respectful to pay that amount since he just saved a ton of money and even though we didn't install the 50' of pipe the purpose of the drainage work did and still serves its purpose which is the only thing he fails to complain about. My contract didn't guarentee the work because they were specs from the town engineer, I could understand all this if the project didn't function but it does. So this guy wins big because the work I did functions properly, I did what I was suppose to do but he isn't living up to his end. Figures the whole time in arguing this bill we had numerous rain storms with flooding streets, rivers etc and he never once said he had a wet basement after our work. His reponse when I brought it up was "It hasn't rained like it has to get water in my basement, I know what type of rain we need for it to happen." :confused: Still even dealing with the lawyers nothing was ever said about the work not functioning properly. So again he got the work he wanted done, just doesn't want to pay for it.

Jeff

PS Sorry for the hijack

[mrusk]

So you complete the job with 50 feet less pipe but then add 1800 in extras .... and then the HO does not want to pay anything? What is his reasoning for not wanting to pay you?

[NNJLandman]

The extras were due to sandy soil, even with rigging the sidewalls we still had blow outs so thats where the extras came from extra time, machine, fuel etc. His reasoning is that I didn't install that 50' of pipe and the job was acctually more, that it should be less because it was 5 sections of pipe less. It was clearly explained the job was going over he knew....so like i said scumbag.

[DVS Hardscaper]

Spelling EVERYTHING out in a DETAILED contract can avoid problems.

If you did not cover it in the contract, then you can not be upset with the client.

Very important.

[AintNoFun]

sorry to hear that nnjlandman.. just for $hits and giggles contact the local police dept, get a detective on the phone explain the situation see what he thinks about theft of service charges, maybe tough without the revised contracts though. i haven't gone to court in about 4 or 5 years once i found out this nice tactic.... the detective will contact the homeowner, once the homeowner hears the cops are involved 80% of the time i get a phone call right after the police hung up with him, please please please come get the money right now, with the sob story of course!! oh yea btw some police depts really dont want to get involved because they think it should be a civil matter and i guess they have bigger things to do like find out who throw eggs at someones house so make sure your persitent with the officer...

[PROCUT1]

Sounds to me that there is more to the no pay story.

If you did the work you are entitled to be paid.

The "materials" settlement makes me think you may have had second thoughts to the final outcome of the job.

I would have a collection agency, and a lien on his property. Once you collect your money then he can sue you if he thinks you did something wrong.

[NNJLandman]

Think what you want yatta yatta, its been going on for 4 months now talking with the client on the phone, getting a lawyer, Im jus sick of it. The time I would have to spend trying to get full payment can be spent on something better. Gimme what I laid out and im content. As for as for getting the police involved, at this point it wouldn't work since its been 4 or 5 months and since were dealing with lawyers it might be considered harassment.

Jeff

[DoetschOutdoor]

Can you in any way go back and undo the work you did? Maybe talk of that would be enough to make him fess it up.

[shovelracer]

Im pretty sure you cant do that regardless. My boss 10 years ago got arrested for taking a 10lb sledge to a wall that he didnt get paid for. Not sure how that fits in but funny regardless.

[LB1234]

We have a clause in our contracts that states something along the lines of all material is property of contractor until balance is paid in full. Attorney says its a deterant for HO and the like to not pay the final payment. Something about since its my material on his property I won't be trespassing to retrieve it...nor stealing. Never had to go to court over it so not sure how it would hold up in the court of law.

I actually got the idea through talking to one of the speakers at an ICPI course last year. He was arrested after pulling up a driveway of pavers on a job he didn't get paid for.

[skidster32]

i would try filing a Lean against him, or contacting a collection agency. some people get letters and phone calls from a collection agency and end up paying, because its a perminant mark on their credit. but you might only end up with half to 3/4 of the amount you are owed depending on the collection agency fees. you could also try a bench trial or small claims court. i have gone the small claims rout before and got what i was owed, just as long as you have all the receipts, written contracts and a written work schedule, saying what you did everyday through out the project. hope this helps

rich

[AintNoFun]

he seems happy to be getting beat out of his time and doesn't want to pursue it further...


i would try filing a Lean against him, or contacting a collection agency. some people get letters and phone calls from a collection agency and end up paying, because its a perminant mark on their credit. but you might only end up with half to 3/4 of the amount you are owed depending on the collection agency fees. you could also try a bench trial or small claims court. i have gone the small claims rout before and got what i was owed, just as long as you have all the receipts, written contracts and a written work schedule, saying what you did everyday through out the project. hope this helps

rich

[DVS Hardscaper]

Sorry, Police CAN'T do a THING. It's a civil matter, not a criminal matter.

You could file a lien, but if you are in the wrong, you can be sued for 'defamation of title'.

About 3 years ago, I was an expert witness in court on behalf of a homeowner. The contractor sued the homeowner for about $5,000.00 for final payment.

The contractor thought the homeowner simply did not want to pay.

That was NOT the case. As, the contractor did sub-par work. Structural and visual flaws left and right. VERY poor work. The homeowner testified that the work was sub-standard, I was on the witness stand for about an hour testifying as to the flaws, and providing the judge with exhibits (pictures) of the flaws.

So the contractor sued the homeowner. 2 days of testimony. The judgement was for the homeowner. The contractor lost the case.


MY POINT IS: I frequently hear contractors talking about how they are owed money. And I'm not saying it's the case here, but most of the time the contractor IS in the wrong.

[Patatoe1]

Hey Mrusk have you finished the job?

[EagleLandscape]

ttt..................................

[mrusk]

We are getting there. We are in the middle of a big creative difference right now. I way under estimated the advil I would need to take for this job.

[kootoomootoo]

We are getting there. We are in the middle of a big creative difference right now. I way under estimated the advil I would need to take for this job.

big creative difference.......How so.

[Patatoe1]

big creative difference.......How so.
Any updates?

[PlatinumLandCon]

there are, not on this forum though. I think he'll be done this week.

[mrusk]

All i have to say is to never agree to work with a inteior design on a landscape project.

I should be wrapped up this week except for the front walkways because customs is holding the container up.

I am more then ready to move on to the next big gig.

[Majesticman]

Sorry to hear you got shafted but that is part of growing pains. I got hammered on a failed project when the developer went under when I started.

I have been a witness about 20 times over the last 25 years and I have seen guys lose even more money when the owners sue them them for damages. If something you did caused that leak leave them alone and have them to sign off on it.

There was a contractor in Memphis that built a wall that looked like a roller coaster after it settled. The general kept the 10% retainage took a whipping and had the wall demoed and rebuilt because he knew he should not have hired the guy to begin with. The builder sued for the 10% , pissed off the general, and ended up paying $22,000. The look on that guys face when I testified made me feel like I was an executioner. That was my last one. Sometimes it is best to walk away.

We very rarely do homes because of the emotions and lack of business skill of the owners.