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bblawncare
01-16-2008, 05:44 AM
I know this sounds stupid, but I just thought I'd ask. And I am pretty darn certain I know the answer. I was mowing one of my customers lawn the other day and the "Scotts" truck pulls up. The tech proceeds to pull out the hose and starts heading to the back yard. I stop my mower and politely ask him what he is doing. He informs me he is spraying for weeds, but that it is ok for me to keep mowing (and I had not even mowed the back yet). Now, everything I've ever read on a label says do NOT apply when people are present and keep off till dry. I told him this and he said, "it really won't hurt you". I was not comfortable with that and finally convinced him to come back a little later in the day. Was he wrong to want to spray while I was working in the yard?

olive123
01-16-2008, 05:59 AM
yes...hes just trying to get done faster.

RAlmaroad
01-16-2008, 07:47 AM
I know this sounds stupid, but I just thought I'd ask. And I am pretty darn certain I know the answer. I was mowing one of my customers lawn the other day and the "Scotts" truck pulls up. The tech proceeds to pull out the hose and starts heading to the back yard. I stop my mower and politely ask him what he is doing. He informs me he is spraying for weeds, but that it is ok for me to keep mowing (and I had not even mowed the back yet). Now, everything I've ever read on a label says do NOT apply when people are present and keep off till dry. I told him this and he said, "it really won't hurt you". I was not comfortable with that and finally convinced him to come back a little later in the day. Was he wrong to want to spray while I was working in the yard?

99% H2O won't hurt, but most correct Chems have a re-entry time.

ICT Bill
01-16-2008, 09:17 AM
I'll have to assume that he did not offer you a breathing apperatus. Did you ask him for his insurance agent when ten years from now you are hacking up blood. I'll bet he was not wearing anything to breathe through either
Have you read the label? It says you have to dispose of your clothing after use, no exposed skin, wear gloves and a mask. No entry for 48 hours.

Lets see....UUUMMMM!! It kills weeds, I wonder what it does to your lungs

99% contaminated water

LawnTamer
01-16-2008, 09:29 AM
I'll have to assume that he did not offer you a breathing apperatus. Did you ask him for his insurance agent when ten years from now you are hacking up blood. I'll bet he was not wearing anything to breathe through either
Have you read the label? It says you have to dispose of your clothing after use, no exposed skin, wear gloves and a mask. No entry for 48 hours.

Lets see....UUUMMMM!! It kills weeds, I wonder what it does to your lungs

99% contaminated water

I don't know about all that. Most commonly applied selective herbicides don't require a mask, or a 48 hr re-entry interval, but they do require skin protection. I would call Scotts and complain, be specific about the property, they should be able to determine who the tech was. He was just being lazy, and careless. His application likely wouldn't have been very effective anyway, as most herbicides rely on foliar coverage and absorption, and you would have cut most of the exposed leaves.

FdLLawnMan
01-16-2008, 10:09 AM
I'll have to assume that he did not offer you a breathing apperatus. Did you ask him for his insurance agent when ten years from now you are hacking up blood. I'll bet he was not wearing anything to breathe through either
Have you read the label? It says you have to dispose of your clothing after use, no exposed skin, wear gloves and a mask. No entry for 48 hours.

Lets see....UUUMMMM!! It kills weeds, I wonder what it does to your lungs

99% contaminated water

I looked at my labels just to confirm. I have to wear long sleeves & pants. It says nothing about a mask and throwing the clothes away. The reentry period is wait until dry. The common herbicides that are used do not cause tumors, do not harm your lungs and have been re-approved by the EPA. That being said it was stupid of him to say what he did. If it was weed control it wouldn't be very effective and if it was fertilizer the foliar feeding would be poor.

Ric
01-16-2008, 10:30 AM
bblawncare

Use your common sense man, even if the Scotts Idiot didn't use common Sense. I would have read the Scotts tech the Riot act and then called his CPO and Read him the Riot act. In Fact I did just that several years ago to TG/CL. But in the Case of TG/CL they could care less. I am sure Scotts is the same.

The Un-Written Rule of workers common sense is first man on the Job has first rights. If I pull up on a Mowing Crew, I either move on or wait until they are done. Same way with a Mowing Crew that pulls up on a Freshly sprayed Yard. That is why the Law requires a Time and Date on the Posted sign.

Next time that happens, Just tell the Spray Tech you will report him to the Agi Inspector and Fill out all the nesscessary paper work if he sprays on top of you.


BTW What good is his weed control if you mow the tops off the weeds he just sprayed??? Weed Control is best applied 4 to 5 days after mowing so there is more leaf surface.

lawnservice
01-16-2008, 10:39 AM
I'll have to assume that he did not offer you a breathing apperatus. Did you ask him for his insurance agent when ten years from now you are hacking up blood. I'll bet he was not wearing anything to breathe through either
Have you read the label? It says you have to dispose of your clothing after use, no exposed skin, wear gloves and a mask. No entry for 48 hours.

Lets see....UUUMMMM!! It kills weeds, I wonder what it does to your lungs

99% contaminated water

now there is an uniformed, idiotic answer



bblawncare...maybe next time, as I'm sure one of these days there will be a next time, aim your mower for his hose...that outa upset his day
(yes, my answer...also idiotic....but I'm just joking)

44DCNF
01-16-2008, 10:44 AM
Scott's techs must have to build on huge walk in closet to hold all those clothes.

greencravings
01-16-2008, 11:01 AM
99% H2O won't hurt, but most correct Chems have a re-entry time.

Thanks for the morning chuckle.

We always wait until the lawn cutter is done also, especially with liquid cause it does need to dry on the foilage then watered in to move down to the root zone.

Jason Rose
01-16-2008, 11:04 AM
I'va had a couple run-ins with TG/CL ov the the years. Once on a larger lawn I mow (and for the last 2 years also do the fertilizing). He showed up about 10 minutes after I started mowing and proceeded to drop the spreader out of the truck and start pushing. Mind you I was maybe 1/4 done with the lawn, and bagging. At least this was just granular, and he probably put down 1/4 of what it should have taken to cover this lawn. I saw him push the whole lawn on one hopper full... This lawn is about 35,000 sq. ft. Neat trick huh?

The other I had just pulled up to a house that had TG/CL doing the tree and shrub service. They pulled in just as I was dropping the gate and he quickly flipped open the door and ran to the first tree and started spraying. Totally tried to ignore that I was there. Plus my rig was downwind and I had to them MOVE to keep from having everything covered in whatever the hell he was spraying. Did I mention that it was windy too? Plus it was about a week or 2 before the leaves were falling off the deciduous trees in the fall. He "said" it was fertilizer he was spraying (finally). I'm not arborist, but how much food are leaves going to take in that are actually starting to fall off the tree??? CL dosn't work for them anymore either.

PHS
01-16-2008, 12:48 PM
Funny story about the fertilizer JR :).

A few months ago in an upscale residential development I was watching a guy who works for the big landscape maintenance company that services the common grounds spray some boxwood hedges that lined these circular seating areas. He had a gas powered golf cart with an electric sprayer mounted to the back. He looked like a rodeo barrel racer as he flew around these hedges, gas pedal on the floor and tires sliding with one hand on the wheel and the other hand out the door spraying what smelled like Avid :).

At the the time I couldn't believe they were getting away with that but a new company took over this year so I guess they got what was coming to them.

bill8379
01-16-2008, 01:08 PM
BTW What good is his weed control if you mow the tops off the weeds he just sprayed??? Weed Control is best applied 4 to 5 days after mowing so there is more leaf surface.

I'm glad you said that because last year it was bothersome not to be able to mow my customers lawn and THEN spray. I just read it on the label and but never knew why. I actually thought I would harm the grass if I sprayed too soon before or after mowing.

I better read those damn books I bought to get certified.:hammerhead:

americanlawn
01-16-2008, 01:25 PM
I think it was a "who was there first" situation. We never begin treating a lawn if mowing crews are present. We try to reroute our stops so we can pick 'em up later in the day, but that is not always possible, cuz winds often increase as the day goes on (mowing crews don't have this concern).

What really gets me is when mowing crews show up after we have already started to treat a lawn. Lawns can be mowed anytime -- even on windy days --- Chemical applicators don't have that option.........plus, app's are only 4 or 5 times a year -- once every two months (in our situation), but mowers show up weekly.

Bottom line - mowing crews have more flexibility compared to timely applications.

If I were a paying customer.....I would want my lawn treatment to be done on a timely basis and weather permitting. The grass is always going to be there, just so it gets mowed before it gets out of hand. BTW The grass can be mowed most anytime -- not so regarding treatments.

We have a rule: If we have to skip treating a lawn more than once cuz mowing crews are there..........we put them at the back of our list. I mean the very back, cuz lawns can be mowed anytime.

magland
01-16-2008, 01:52 PM
The mowing guys are going to disagree. You can't just mow a lawn anytime. You can, but waiting an extra few days is a much bigger deal when mowing than fertilizing. Just ask a mowing guy how many people freak out when you don't show up and mow on the same day each week.

In all honesty, it makes complete sense to mow first, then apply after. Not the other way around. That is if you wan't optimum control and performance. I mean you don't want to spray and have a guy mow and bag the lawn 1/2 hour later. All the chemical on the first couple inches of turf is removed. Plus homeowners always think you suck up all the granular fertilizer when you bag.

Ric
01-16-2008, 02:19 PM
I'm glad you said that because last year it was bothersome not to be able to mow my customers lawn and THEN spray. I just read it on the label and but never knew why. I actually thought I would harm the grass if I sprayed too soon before or after mowing.

I better read those damn books I bought to get certified.:hammerhead:

Bill

You can not Learn everything out of a Book. It takes time and experience. You must read labels regularly as well as the Trade Magazine, LS etc. BUT Think of those poor Fools who worked for TG/CL for many years learning how to do all the wrong things.




The mowing guys are going to disagree. You can't just mow a lawn anytime. You can, but waiting an extra few days is a much bigger deal when mowing than fertilizing. Just ask a mowing guy how many people freak out when you don't show up and mow on the same day each week.

In all honesty, it makes complete sense to mow first, then apply after. Not the other way around. That is if you wan't optimum control and performance. I mean you don't want to spray and have a guy mow and bag the lawn 1/2 hour later. All the chemical on the first couple inches of turf is removed. Plus homeowners always think you suck up all the granular fertilizer when you bag.

magland

Glad you stepped in here with Common Sense. There does seem to be a lack of Common sense here today. You are 100% Correct. Without timely cultural practise all the Fertilizer in the world is not going to help. Whether Fertilizer is applied today or next Wednesday really doesn't make a big difference to anyone but the Selfish CPO who is too self centered to work with others.

americanlawn
01-16-2008, 03:12 PM
You are a joke, as you certainly do not know what you are talking about.

I'll have to assume that he did not offer you a breathing apperatus. Did you ask him for his insurance agent when ten years from now you are hacking up blood. I'll bet he was not wearing anything to breathe through either
Have you read the label? It says you have to dispose of your clothing after use, no exposed skin, wear gloves and a mask. No entry for 48 hours.

Lets see....UUUMMMM!! It kills weeds, I wonder what it does to your lungs

99% contaminated water

lilmarvin4064
01-16-2008, 03:13 PM
Thanks for the morning chuckle.

We always wait until the lawn cutter is done also, especially with liquid cause it does need to dry on the foilage then watered in to move down to the root zone.

Let it dry, Yes. Water it in, NO, well not exactly. Liquid WC doesn't need to go to the rootzone. It is absorbed through foliage, then translocated. No watering for at least 24 hours (with most common WCs). However, during dryspells you might see weeds dying faster after watering, but you'd be better off watering the lawn before you spray. The faster they growin', the faster they dyin'.

crazy4green
01-16-2008, 05:03 PM
I have applied for years and don't cough blood you don't have to wear a mask just as stated before long sleeves, pants and water resistant boots. And I have been on same lawn as mowers before but always have polite enough to let them start and wait a few min if no stops are close but only spray parts mowed already. Helps though I don't pull a hose I use PG and Z spray it always can be worked out nothing in WC is going to harm you by mowing at same time. And liquid WC should dry and not be watered for 24 hours just to get best results.

rcreech
01-16-2008, 06:42 PM
[QUOTE=lawnservice;2101116]now there is an uniformed, idiotic answer
QUOTE]

I have to ditto you on that one!

He says "check the label" then gives an answer like that!

I would like to see what he wears when he is applying! I bet he looks like an astronaut out there!:laugh:

WOW!

Besides the safety standpoint, if he sprays the and then it is mowed right away, weed control will be minimal possibly since you are injuring the plant (weed)!

RigglePLC
01-16-2008, 07:41 PM
Will mowing reduce weed control effectiveness? Have you ever seen any scientific work or studies on this? To what degree is it reduced?

And what is your opinion? Does weed control need to dry on the foliage? Or... as one scientists said," Once it is dry, it crystalizes and can no longer be absorbed."

And question number two: Does spraying the leaves have any effect at all? The weed killer affects the top of the plant, the growing point, the apical meristem--that is what you are trying to spray. Your opinion Ric--if you spray the leaves and cover the tip of the stem--will the herbicide translocate to the tip and kill it?

txgrassguy
01-16-2008, 07:45 PM
I have only had this happen to me once and it was a structural pest guy spraying the perimeter of an office building while the irrigation crew and I was on the property.
HE actually started to spray a state restricted insecticide around us, yes we were on our hands and knees adjusting heads along the office building foundation when this rocket scientist came along.
He wouldn't stop and over spray was getting on us so I casually walked over to his truck and ripped the mirrors off both doors.
Then called the office manager, the owner of the building and the state on this ******.
When the cops got there they tried to tell me I had to pay for the mirrors and I refused.
I told the idiot to take me to court and I would counter sue.
Never heard another word from him again - in fact I just threw those old mirrors out a little while ago.

rcreech
01-16-2008, 08:49 PM
Will mowing reduce weed control effectiveness? Have you ever seen any scientific work or studies on this? To what degree is it reduced?

Depends on the timing of the application vs injury time. It you spray a plant and injure it, it can shut down. This will keep the plant from translocating the herbicide throught the plant.

For a herbicide to work you need the following:
ONTO---->INTO----->THRU------>DO

If you get the herbicide on the plant and allow it to penetrate the leaf, but don't allow it to get trough the plant (xylem and phloem) then it MAY not kill the plant.

Weather and other conditions can also affect plant uptake timing!

It would be safe to say that if a weed was sprayed and mowed within a short timeframe that a kill wouldn't take place. This is due to not allowing enough time to allow the product to translocate before injury.



And what is your opinion? Does weed control need to dry on the foliage? Or... as one scientists said," Once it is dry, it crystalizes and can no longer be absorbed."

This depends on the leaf surface. IF the leaf surface (cuticle) is not waxy or hairy then uptake is very easy to achieve. If you have a waxy leaf surface or hairy leaf they you may need to add NIR or COC to help penetrate the leaf surface.

And question number two: Does spraying the leaves have any effect at all? The weed killer affects the top of the plant, the growing point, the apical meristem--that is what you are trying to spray. Your opinion Ric--if you spray the leaves and cover the tip of the stem--will the herbicide translocate to the tip and kill it?

Actually, when you apply and herbicide (Gly for example) the product is absorbed through the leaves and translocates and in the plant moving to the areas where there is the most growth (first the apical meristem at the top of the plant and moves down to other parts of the plant such as buds etc).

Remember that does makes the poison! If you go at a low rate, I have seen where Gly will "melt" the plant half way down, and grow out of it! This is because the rate was too low and this is where resistance can occur! But this is a whole different topic!

Any way forgot to answer your question....but if you cover the apical meristem (growing point) and spray the leaves only you will still kill the plant with a product that translocates in the plant.

Remember it is the mode of action that kills the plant!

humble1
01-16-2008, 08:54 PM
I have only had this happen to me once and it was a structural pest guy spraying the perimeter of an office building while the irrigation crew and I was on the property.
HE actually started to spray a state restricted insecticide around us, yes we were on our hands and knees adjusting heads along the office building foundation when this rocket scientist came along.
He wouldn't stop and over spray was getting on us so I casually walked over to his truck and ripped the mirrors off both doors.
Then called the office manager, the owner of the building and the state on this ******.
When the cops got there they tried to tell me I had to pay for the mirrors and I refused.
I told the idiot to take me to court and I would counter sue.
Never heard another word from him again - in fact I just threw those old mirrors out a little while ago.

Do you have anger issues? lol just kidding i would have also let the air out of his tires.

humble1
01-16-2008, 08:56 PM
I'll have to assume that he did not offer you a breathing apperatus. Did you ask him for his insurance agent when ten years from now you are hacking up blood. I'll bet he was not wearing anything to breathe through either
Have you read the label? It says you have to dispose of your clothing after use, no exposed skin, wear gloves and a mask. No entry for 48 hours.

Lets see....UUUMMMM!! It kills weeds, I wonder what it does to your lungs

99% contaminated water

dont forget melt your lips off.

Exact Rototilling
01-16-2008, 10:52 PM
This isn't rocket science here. For an herbicide to work it needs to absorb into the plant . . . so mowing will take away some if not most of the herbicide if sprayed right before mowing. So mowing would take priority over the application of herbicide IMHO as long as Larry Lawncare is already mowing. If I was the chemically inclined home owner I'd be irate to find out that Chem Dude sprayed and pushed out Larry Lawncare while he was mowing thus reducing the weed killers effectiveness. Just my take.

Anyhow several years ago I was playing with my son, 3 years old, in our backyard and Mr. Penske, Flu-Chem or etc. rolls up to the neighbors yard across the Greenbelt and starts spraying what I could tell from the smell and effect was weed killer. Anyhow there was a strong wind and I got a full lung full of the stuff. Made me sick for about 3+ days after exposure. It triggers an immune system response for me that is the equivalent of having the flu. I can't even imagine If I sprayed this stuff commercially.

I'm hardly a crippled frail unhealthy person but it sure makes me feel like it after I get a good dose of it.

Thinking about going 100% Organic.

txgrassguy
01-16-2008, 10:59 PM
Do you have anger issues? lol just kidding i would have also let the air out of his tires.

Nope, I had actually asked him to stop spraying first to allow us to move out of the way - and he kept going anyways.
And despite urning him into the state, he didn't get fined or in trouble - go figure.

PHS
01-17-2008, 08:08 AM
rcreech,

"Dose makes the poison", considering "the mode of action", key basic concepts that are always the first ones to be overlooked :). Also like the "onto, into, thru, do", I always try to explain that to people but that's a good way for non-technical people to remember it.

I was thinking about this last night, if you are using a contact herbicide like MSMA or something and the material has a chance to dry first. Would you expect to see much difference between mowing and not mowing? Assuming you have good coverage I would think mowing wouldn't make much of a difference because you aren't relying on translocation. Do you know if that's true or am I missing something?

greencravings
01-17-2008, 12:11 PM
Let it dry, Yes. Water it in, NO, well not exactly. Liquid WC doesn't need to go to the rootzone. It is absorbed through foliage, then translocated. No watering for at least 24 hours (with most common WCs). However, during dryspells you might see weeds dying faster after watering, but you'd be better off watering the lawn before you spray. The faster they growin', the faster they dyin'.

I stand corrected. I was referring to a weed & feed application that needs to be watered in after its dry.

You're right, you do want to wait at least 24 hours, when spot treating with weed control only.

Mr.GreenJeans89
01-17-2008, 12:41 PM
Yeah he was just trying to keep moving and didnt want your mowing to stop him.He sounds very rude and selfish and i would of told to get the he (double hocky sticks)out of the lawn till im done.Way to stand your ground and make him leave.Ive been on both ends of that situation and would never spray and tell the guy mowing to go ahead and mow right asfter ive treated nor wpould i mow a freshly treated lawn.Some guys think cuz they are spraying a chemical they think they are above the man just cutting the grass and they can tell them anything.

Ric
01-17-2008, 03:15 PM
Will mowing reduce weed control effectiveness? Have you ever seen any scientific work or studies on this? To what degree is it reduced?

And what is your opinion? Does weed control need to dry on the foliage? Or... as one scientists said," Once it is dry, it crystalizes and can no longer be absorbed."

And question number two: Does spraying the leaves have any effect at all? The weed killer affects the top of the plant, the growing point, the apical meristem--that is what you are trying to spray. Your opinion Ric--if you spray the leaves and cover the tip of the stem--will the herbicide translocate to the tip and kill it?


Riggle

I am not sure I am following you on this one?? Leafs of even herbaceous plants will absorb better than stems. But IMHO if a stem absorbs enough AI it will translocate enough AI to control that plant. "Absorb enough" is the key wording here. Leafs offer more surface area to absorb herbicides.

Time restraints of absorption might be a big factor in mowing right after application. True once a herbicide has dried it can no longer be absorbed. If however a weed is mowed just after being sprayed, chances are the stem was not treated by the spray and therefore negates the application. Even if a leaf has absorbed enough herbicide it takes time to translocate that AI. If mowed off, that leaf can not translocate the absorbed herbicide. As a rule of thumb, we like to have a two hour period of no rain, irrigation or mowing to be sure our application is effective.

americanlawn
01-17-2008, 04:43 PM
Ditto with Ric. Also, sometimes we'll be spraying a large commercial property at the same time our mowing crews show up. We just keep out of eachother's way, and we're both happy. They are careful not to mow over our spray hoses. BTW our mowers mow high (not on drugs, LOL) so the weed control still works. But I've seen poor weed control along curbs when string trimming is too low right after treatment. Old school turf guys often say the best weed control ocurrs just after weeds are mowed (open wounds). This might explain the tactic of "squishing" a mature thistle with your foot before you spray it. Note: We never start spraying if our mowing crews are already there -- it's their choice if they want to mow when we're spraying, but we warn them not to weed eat along the edges until the next mowing.

CHiP's
01-17-2008, 05:10 PM
Anyone should know that you should not apply weed control soon after a mowing. For the best results you like to have as much of the weed leaf blade there to be in contact with the weed control. To apply weed control during a mowing will not bring the best results. This lawn tech must have been working on commission. The Scotts lawn service company i work for pays us salary, so if we come across this situation we pass on the lawn because we know that this will not bring the best results for our customers. Myself and the guys i work with at the Scotts lawn service we work for are out to please the customer, because without them we are out of a job. It sounds like you should contact your local Scotts and voice your concern for what happened. As far as the liquid applied there will be some oder, but no cause for any breathing apperratis. The product applied is around or less then 1% product and the rest water.

americanlawn
01-17-2008, 05:58 PM
I hear ya buddy......the Scotts guys in my area are top notch -- good friends too. Lots of franchises out there -- all run by different guys. :usflag:

Anyone should know that you should not apply weed control soon after a mowing. For the best results you like to have as much of the weed leaf blade there to be in contact with the weed control. To apply weed control during a mowing will not bring the best results. This lawn tech must have been working on commission. The Scotts lawn service company i work for pays us salary, so if we come across this situation we pass on the lawn because we know that this will not bring the best results for our customers. Myself and the guys i work with at the Scotts lawn service we work for are out to please the customer, because without them we are out of a job. It sounds like you should contact your local Scotts and voice your concern for what happened. As far as the liquid applied there will be some oder, but no cause for any breathing apperratis. The product applied is around or less then 1% product and the rest water.

Armadillolawncare
01-18-2008, 03:25 AM
Here in Texas the Chem Lawn Tru grren Scotts guys etc. now get their applicators license thru the Texas Dept of agriculture instead of the Structural control Board. Thru the TDA you can have unlicensed applicators. They just have to be in contact with a licensed applicator (cell phone) to answer any questions they may have. You have untrained unlicensed people puttting down applications.

Exact Rototilling
01-18-2008, 11:41 AM
I've been pondering this lately . . .

The instructions say to cover exposed skin, launder the clothes, but not to worry about a mask or respirator. I actually paid attention in biology class. Your lungs. my lungs have the combined surface area of a tennis court - yes it's a lot of sq footage.

Every time you breath in . . . . much of that area gets exposed. And we should be concerned about skin contact? :hammerhead:

:confused:

nik
01-18-2008, 06:38 PM
keep off till dry states have various rules on this. According to the feds, "Do not enter until spray has dried" is different from "Do not allow others onto treated areas until sprays have dried" The latter applied to all persons. The first applies only to the applicator and it means that others could go walk into the treated area without a label violation.

As far as the techs behavior, Can't think of a state where that would fly with the pesticide inspectors.