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Mike M
01-16-2008, 08:56 PM
Okay, I just have two questions regarding the bronze fixture treatment per Cast spec's.

(1) If anyone has done this, does it stop the zinc effect (white stuff)?

(2) Do you have to take the housing completely apart to the protect socket or gaskets?

Tanks,

Mike M.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-17-2008, 10:17 AM
Hi Mike. I am pretty sure Steve P. from CAST recommended that we use a wire brush to reduce/remove the white residue and then spray with WD40 to slow its formation. I am not aware of any 'dunking' procedure.

I certainly will not be removing any fixtures from the ground and then dunking them unless CAST is picking up the tab for time and materials. I am simply no longer going to install CAST bullet uplights in proximity to where a client might see them.

I have not installed any CAST bronze path or deck lights... for those of you who have, do they also suffer from the white zinc residue issue?

It would appear to me that CAST has a metallurgical issue with their materials or processes. I dont see this problem with any other brass fixtures I have installed and I havent seen Hydrel or Bronzelite fixtures with any apparent similar issues. (admittedly the only bronze Hydrel and Bronzelite fixtures I have encountered are underwater units and this may have something to do with it)

Regards.

irrig8r
01-17-2008, 11:31 AM
We see it a lot on new bronze backflow preventers and hose bibs, but I always sort of assumed it was hard water deposits... maybe not... but in those applications aesthetics are not a big concern...

Pro-Scapes
01-17-2008, 02:25 PM
did you not get the insert in em ?

Burt and I installed several large China hats about 150 ft off the Gulf. They turned white VERY quickly and if I rememeber it didnt take long for it to vanish.

I installed some small china hats for a client 70 miles inland. They turned white within a week... 3-4 mo later they are dark. Installed mushrooms for another client... cleaned after a week with CLR...Sprayed with wd40... they turned white again and have stayed a milky white for about a year now. I would stay away from the WD40 unless you do it NEW out of the box and wish to keep them bright.

Installed some new orleans and they turned white in 3 days... 2 mo later nice deep dark bronze.

Mike.. take a bullet... mix some amonia and vinegar and perhaps a bit of salt in a garden sprayer and hose it down. Keep the stuff out of the sockets. Try this with just a hate first or a bullet light. If you dont like it you can always wire brush it back to new.

This is one of the huge drawbacks to cast pathlights besides lamping options. People love em. They are sturdy as all get out and a snap to install.

NightScenes
01-17-2008, 09:20 PM
I've only used the CAST fixtures once and I had the same problem with the Zinc. It took about 6 months to resolve itself.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-17-2008, 09:50 PM
Perhaps CAST should consider weathering all of their products between the casting stage and the assembly stage. It would take some doing, but could be the easiest solution to the problem.

How would you guys feel about receiving weathered bronze fixtures out of the box rather then shiny ones that go white for an undetermined period of time?

Regards.

pete scalia
01-17-2008, 10:33 PM
What are you guys install contractors or a janitorial service?

Mike M
01-18-2008, 04:56 AM
How would you guys feel about receiving weathered bronze fixtures out of the box rather then shiny ones that go white for an undetermined period of time?

Makes me remember washing new jeans with just the right amount of bleach. Now you can't buy them without prewash.

Pro-Scapes
01-18-2008, 10:04 AM
dont complain about a price increase if you want that avalible. Cast has kept their fixtures pretty reasonable by keeping the overhead down on producing em a bit. Simple packaging....no expensive finishes...Nothing custom etc.

ChampionLS
01-20-2008, 01:39 AM
Heres a PDF on how to take care of Bronze Statues. I thought it was pretty interesting. :drinkup:

steveparrott
01-20-2008, 02:30 AM
OK guys, let's not get carried away here. When you put a bronze bullet in the hands of a homeowner and they see and feel the value of it, they are impressed (and willing to pay a premium).

When you explain to them that the natural aging process of bronze includes an early stage of a chalky appearance, they understand. If they don't like the chalky stage then a wire brushing, then a coating of WD-40 takes care of the appearance. It may happen that you'll need to repeat the process under certain conditions, it only takes a few minutes and the homeowner will appreciate your diligence.

The key is to explain (in the beginning) to the homeowner that natural solid bronze goes through stages - the early stages may not be the most appealing, but after a few months (or at most a year) bronze patinas to a color that complements the colors of the landscape. The end result is that they have fixtures with the durability and beauty of bronze statuary. Is this any different than a landscaper who installs young plants and explains to the homeowner that the landscape will not achieve its full beauty until the plants mature?

By the way, James, your comment about not wanting to install CAST fixtures where clients see them is hard to understand. Hundreds of thousands of CAST fixtures are installed where clients can see them and (once the chalky stage is over) they are universally enjoyed for their beauty.

Also, your suggestion that we have a metallurgical problem is incorrect. Our foundry workers and metallurgists are very diligent in mixing the metals in the exact proportion to yield the bronze alloy with the optimal molding, machining and weathering properties. We've looked into ways to eliminate the zinc exudate, but it doesn't seem possible.

Again, the key is to fully explain the process to the homeowner, emphasizing the long-term value. There are hundreds of contractors that do this and have minimal complaints from the homeowners. When you are successful in instructing your clients in the natural process of color change, then you will find that you don't need to mess with wire brushes and WD-40 at all.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-20-2008, 08:30 AM
Thanks for the detailed explanation Steve. You know I do like a couple of your products and have used them extensively. As for not placing any bronze bullet uplights in a position where the weathering process can be seen by my clients. Well that is just my personal choice I suppose. There is an awful lot of really strong competition in the 'bullet uplight' category, so I don't see the need to install anything that needs any extra explaining to my clients. (or possible call backs to deal with the situation).

I was at the Landscape Ontario show last week and met your representative there. He showed me the new additons to your line (smaller scale path light, MR11 Bullet, and post light) and explained to me about the new lens that is available for the pathlights. These are good additions to your line and I expect will be quite popular.

What did you think of my idea of having the foundry weather the bronze components before assembly?

Regards

Mike M
01-20-2008, 10:16 AM
Steve;

I am requesting info as to whether the patina treatment per CAST specs successfully ends the zinc effect. If so, I could request a third party (an ambitious distributor) to offer your line pre-treated or "antiqued." But this idea may be a problem, since most of your distributors are primarily irrigation stores, plus CAST policy is against interstate commerce between installers and distributors.

I would do it myself, but my small inventory at this point is such that I would have to do the treatment with only a few dozen bullets at a time, requiring me to store chemical buckets or jugs in my garage, which is an issue because of my nosey children and pets.

James must have serious issues with the "clr" service, since proximity to clients is profoundly further than typical landscaper-service range.

In time I predict Rain Bird, Hunter, and Toro will acquire/gain lv market share with irrigators, so wouldn't it be nice if CAST managed a separate line of products exclusive to licensed lighting specialists? A pre-treated "antiqued line" could be managed this way, distributed through dedicated lighting distributors.

End note: What will happen with the advancement of lv licensing anyway? Will the inventory of lv lights on the shelves of local irrigation stores decline?

steveparrott
01-20-2008, 02:16 PM
Steve;

I am requesting info as to whether the patina treatment per CAST specs successfully ends the zinc effect. If so, I could request a third party (an ambitious distributor) to offer your line pre-treated or "antiqued." But this idea may be a problem, since most of your distributors are primarily irrigation stores, plus CAST policy is against interstate commerce between installers and distributors. ?

The patina treatment (ammonia, salt, vinegar, spreader/sticker) bypasses the zinc leaching.

I would do it myself, but my small inventory at this point is such that I would have to do the treatment with only a few dozen bullets at a time, requiring me to store chemical buckets or jugs in my garage, which is an issue because of my nosey children and pets.?

Again, it's far easier to explain the color-changing process to the homeowner. Contractors who do this well seldom find a homeowner who insists on speeding up the color change.

In time I predict Rain Bird, Hunter, and Toro will acquire/gain lv market share with irrigators, so wouldn't it be nice if CAST managed a separate line of products exclusive to licensed lighting specialists? A pre-treated "antiqued line" could be managed this way, distributed through dedicated lighting distributors.

I haven't heard that the irrigation mfgs. want to get into the lighting market. By the way, the reason why irrigation distributors are major players in the lighting industry is because they have worked with contractors for decades establishing a widespread highly efficient distribution network. Adding lighting to their product lines is a seamless affair.

Having said that, commercial nurseries are also getting into lighting in a big way. Lighting-only distributors that focus on the professional are few and far between.

Your suggestion of adding a pre-patinad line is always possible but keep in mind that one of the reasons that CAST fixtures are so affordable for the value is because the line is limited to the essential fixtures.

End note: What will happen with the advancement of lv licensing anyway? Will the inventory of lv lights on the shelves of local irrigation stores decline?

While some states (FL, CT and NJ to name a few) have aggresively moved to low voltage licensing or (even more onerous) limiting LVL to electricians, most states do not seem to be moving to more licensing. There are currently 26 states that require some kind of licensing. These states may see more enforcement as the industry grows.

We're working hard to exempt NJ contractors from licensing and I'm confident that we will succeed. CT is next on my list (they've recently made a violation of their licensing law a misdemeanor!) Our hope is that our efforts in these states will constitute a blueprint for other states to follow. Electricans really don't have a leg to stand on when they're trying to assert that low voltage landscape lighting belongs to them.

irrig8r
01-20-2008, 03:42 PM
Steve;


In time I predict Rain Bird, Hunter, and Toro will acquire/gain lv market share with irrigators...


Mike,
Where on earth did you come up with that idea?

Toro has offered crappy plastic kit lights for a long time...:laugh:.... and I don't believe they've effected my share of the business.

Rainbird offered a small line of some interesting all stainless steel fixtures for about 2 years back in the late 80's or early 90's called Nightbird, but they were pulled rather quickly....

I've never heard of Hunter expressing an interest in lighting, have you?

:confused:

Mike M
01-20-2008, 04:25 PM
Greg;

I'm just realizing the importance of a few things.

Primarily, lv lighting is it's own business, and not just some add-on or upsell like a small bed of annual flowers. As licensing and certification and stiffer competition becomes an issue, lawn guys, irrigators, landscape design/builds, hardscapers, electricians, and anyone else, are gonna have to think about the benefits of becoming a full-time lv lighting design/build company, or start referring work out.

Just my 2 cents.

But I can tell you this, I will not: seek advice, buy wire by the foot, or make special orders for every fixture, or be limited to what's behind the counter, at a local irrigation shop or a plant nursery.

There will always be the multi-talented landscapers, etc., that can do everything, but based on what I heard at a Vista seminar, they want EVERY lawn and landscaper putting in their lights, just like Home Depot wants EVERY homeowner to do it themselves, without regard to the technical craft or artform.

pete scalia
01-20-2008, 04:33 PM
Greg;

what I heard at a Vista seminar, they want EVERY lawn and landscaper putting in their lights, just like Home Depot wants EVERY homeowner to do it themselves, without regard to the technical craft or artform.

It's not only vista who wants this. Every other manufacturer has the same mantra. Their goal is to sell as many lights as they can. Do you really think a manufacturer cares about the quality or aesthetics or design or the end result. It's quantity not quality with them. They work on margins. Not one cares if the products are sold to contractors or to do it yourselfers either by their distributors. The manufacturer makes the same profit regardless.

Lite4
01-20-2008, 05:37 PM
It's not only vista who wants this. Every other manufacturer has the same mantra. Their goal is to sell as many lights as they can. Do you really think a manufacturer cares about the quality or aesthetics or design or the end result. It's quantity not quality with them. They work on margins. Not one cares if the products are sold to contractors or to do it yourselfers either by their distributors. The manufacturer makes the same profit regardless.

Ditto to Pete. I will also say manu's sacrifice the furtherance of educating the public about proper lighting techniques on the alter of just making a few more bucks. Every time these guys push lights on landscapers or the homeowners that come in to buy them from dist. (who are just as much to blame), It counteracts what I have been trying to accomplish by educating the public about correct lighting through the use of neighborhood demonstrations and trade shows.

irrig8r
01-20-2008, 07:06 PM
Ditto to Pete. I will also say manu's sacrifice the furtherance of educating the public about proper lighting techniques on the alter of just making a few more bucks. Every time these guys push lights on landscapers or the homeowners that come in to buy them from dist. (who are just as much to blame), It counteracts what I have been trying to accomplish by educating the public about correct lighting through the use of neighborhood demonstrations and trade shows.

Well, they have put lighting into the hands of a lot more people...

Back when I was a full service landscape contractor (installation and maintenance of landscape, irrigation and lighting, and subbing out hardscape and treework) I got into lighting after attending a seminar with Bill Locklin in 1989.

Even so, I was only installing 6 to 10 lighting jobs a year up until about 10 years ago. It was then that I spun off the maintenance biz to some former employees, took a break from self-employment for a few months (until I couldn't stand it), and then came back to concentrate on irrigation and lighting...

Along the way the lighting business changed. Manufacturers got the message and started making fixtures and transformers out of more durable materials. Mulit-tap transformers became available. New ideas and products came along from people like Nate Mullen. Competition made the materials we use better.

The way I see it, the whole lighting pie has gotten bigger, but the competition for shares of the pie is increasing too.

Free seminars and the ability to buy product off the shelf have attracted a lot more people to lighting... but just like people installing sprinklers, there are a lot of people who do a lot of install work without really knowing what they are doing and with no interest in following up.

I think what's needed is a strong certification program... but I wonder if that is at odds with manufacturer 's interests... in other words, if they sell a lot of fixtures and transformers either way... and if certification limits the number of people able to do lighting, then how do the manufactureres gain from that?

As designers/ installers some of our interests parallel those of manufacturers and distributors, but other times we are on opposite sides of the fence...

BTW, as far as distributors go, has it ever bothered you as it has me that (for instance) a S. California distributor that many of us have dealt with has a retail distribution website up showing fixture prices at up to 35% off and offering free design assistance list for DIYs? (www.aquanlite.com)

Excuse my ramblings...

pete scalia
01-20-2008, 07:20 PM
BTW, as far as distributors go, has it ever bothered you as it has me that (for instance) a S. California distributor that many of us have dealt with has a retail distribution website up showing fixture prices at up to 35% off and offering free design assistance list for DIYs? (www.aquanlite.com)

Excuse my ramblings...

F(orget) them and don't buy from them . That's how you deal with it as a self respecting contractor. The AOLP should run them out of the organization and then entirely out of business as their actions prove they are not out for the good of the contractor but for the good of their own damn selves. I say F(orget) em.

Pro-Scapes
01-20-2008, 08:37 PM
Well said pete. It irritates the snot out of me when I see pro grade products (not that half of thoes on that site are much good)... come on ... 121w trans ??? oohhhhh k

There does need to be a licensing program. I am all for it. Manufactures should not see it as a threat to sales. They should see it as a better approach to the industry and you will also see the quality of work come up as well I feel. This in turn will get more people to desire low voltage lighting because what they see from low voltage is excellent performance and design.

When joe DIY does his yard and it looks like crap and falls apart in a year it gives low voltage a bad name

pete scalia
01-20-2008, 08:49 PM
Well said pete. It irritates the snot out of me when I see pro grade products (not that half of thoes on that site are much good)... come on ... 121w trans ??? oohhhhh k

There does need to be a licensing program. I am all for it. Manufactures should not see it as a threat to sales. They should see it as a better approach to the industry and you will also see the quality of work come up as well I feel. This in turn will get more people to desire low voltage lighting because what they see from low voltage is excellent performance and design.

When joe DIY does his yard and it looks like crap and falls apart in a year it gives low voltage a bad name

I'm calling for a full scale boycott of each and every distributor and or manufacturer that turns a blind eye or willingly participates in this catastrophic undercutting of the contractor. Who's with me? Instead of listing the names of all the manu's in the world why not out all the Benedict Arnold Distri's and manu's and take control of this industry. Let's Go Go Go Go Go!

NightScenes
01-20-2008, 09:35 PM
BTW, as far as distributors go, has it ever bothered you as it has me that (for instance) a S. California distributor that many of us have dealt with has a retail distribution website up showing fixture prices at up to 35% off and offering free design assistance list for DIYs? (www.aquanlite.com)



Interesting Gregg, that will give me something to discuss with them this week.

pete scalia
01-20-2008, 10:24 PM
Interesting Gregg, that will give me something to discuss with them this week.

Thank you. Please report back to us after the conference and you have kicked them out of the AOLP for a violation in the terms of membership.

Pro-Scapes
01-20-2008, 10:44 PM
I just noticed on another distributors retail website there are a few very well known brands missing from there

One of them happens to be CAST. Kudos to CAST for not allowing their product to be displayed on this distributors retail site.

pete scalia
01-20-2008, 11:06 PM
I just noticed on another distributors retail website there are a few very well known brands missing from there

One of them happens to be CAST. Kudos to CAST for not allowing their product to be displayed on this distributors retail site.

Yes, But are they selling them to non contractors that's the 20 million dollar ?

Pro-Scapes
01-21-2008, 12:21 AM
Yes, But are they selling them to non contractors that's the 20 million dollar ?

Wish I had an answer. I find it hard to imagine if someone called them wanting them and was willing to pay the marked up price that they wouldnt sell them. You never know tho they might reccomend another line. I won't assume anything when it comes to distributors besides the fact they want to move as much volume as possible.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-21-2008, 12:30 AM
Really, you guys make me feel blessed up here. John Higo at TC Lighting does a wonderful job for us. Similarly, John Scanlon at Estate Lighting is another total professional who is squarely focused at selling to and supporting the outdoor lighting industry.

Do they perennially offer training programs and other efforts to attract new participants into the biz? Sure they do, that is their job. But they are also the first who would try to direct a DIY'er to call a pro. Both are very involved in the industry and give freely of their time through various associations to promote and advance the industry.

I am surprised that in a market 10 times larger then Canada you guys in the USA cannot find distributors who are solely involved in the distribution of lighting. Vote with your $. If you distributor is not doing what you need of them, if they are not supporting you, or they are other wise undercutting the industry for the sake of volume, then find someone else.

Regards

JoeyD
01-21-2008, 11:49 AM
It's not only vista who wants this. Every other manufacturer has the same mantra. Their goal is to sell as many lights as they can. Do you really think a manufacturer cares about the quality or aesthetics or design or the end result. It's quantity not quality with them. They work on margins. Not one cares if the products are sold to contractors or to do it yourselfers either by their distributors. The manufacturer makes the same profit regardless.


Easy there Pete. If you think we (Unique) are all about selling a fixture your crazy!! we always want our products to go to and to be installed by the Professional. We do not want them in the hands of a DIY'er. And if you ever have read Nate's book and attended a Unique UU you would know that we are very concerned with design and I will confidently say we are the best when it comes to design education in terms of Manufacturers.

We are also very concerend with the quality of your installation hence us coming up with the Consumer Buyer Protection Plan years ago which forces the installer to document and to show proof that he has done everything correctly and tested it properly. Sure the more lights we sell the more money we make, but thats like saying if you run you get there faster....but that is not OUR goal, if it was I think we would have created a much larger fixture line and we probably would have just copied someone elses system and focused all of our efforts on creating lights and copying transformers.

Your comments above do not include Unique Lighting.

JoeyD
01-21-2008, 12:01 PM
I will tell you guys that if you find a retail website selling Unique Lighting at any marked or special prices they will be shut down. We do not have any retail/website distributors. Maybe those who bootleg but we have made it one of our rules to not open that type of distribution for the reasons all of you have discussed. remember Unique Lighting comes from a contracting background and understand the importance of serving you guys first and foremost.

irrig8r
01-21-2008, 02:08 PM
As I recall there was either some legislation passed or a court decision in the last year that made it easier for manufacturers to enforce minimum pricing... can't remember what it was called or... I'll research and get back.

Well, that was easy:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-06-28-742754272_x.htm

From 6/28/07

" WASHINGTON (AP) — The Supreme Court on Thursday abandoned a 96-year-old ban on manufacturers and retailers setting price floors for products.
In a 5-4 decision, the court said that agreements on minimum prices are legal if they promote competition.

The ruling means that accusations of minimum pricing pacts will be evaluated case by case.

The Supreme Court declared in 1911 that minimum pricing agreements violate federal antitrust law.

Supporters said that allowing minimum price floors would hurt upstart discounters and Internet resellers seeking to offer new, cheaper ways to distribute products....."

irrig8r
01-21-2008, 10:13 PM
I will tell you guys that if you find a retail website selling Unique Lighting at any marked or special prices they will be shut down. We do not have any retail/website distributors. Maybe those who bootleg but we have made it one of our rules to not open that type of distribution for the reasons all of you have discussed. remember Unique Lighting comes from a contracting background and understand the importance of serving you guys first and foremost.


Well, take a look at this then:

http://www.terradek.com/retail.html

I'll assume these are list prices, but still, this clearly states it is a retail site... and another AOLP member...

Unique 500DB - 500W
$ 884.99

Unique 500SS - 500W
$ 615.28

Unique Probe
$ 196.99

Unique Quasar1
$ 196.99

Unique Big Bang
$ 196.99

Unique Pulsar
$ 196.99

Unique Guardian
$ 121.99

Pro-Scapes
01-21-2008, 10:50 PM
ouch... Thoes are retail but still should not be availible to homeowners or diy crowd. I really dont think this stuff has ANY business in untrained hands at all. I rememeber the first time I looked in a trans i was scared as all get out. I think that was a good thing tho because I knew from the begining to respect anything electrical bigger than a 9v batter.

double ouch

http://www.greentouchirrigation.com/Unique-Lighting-Systems-C218.aspx?UserID=3402701&SessionID=QiNEmm1yp{TZUyy629DI&SID=1&

triple ouch at 2 more websites

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-21-2008, 11:11 PM
Now this should be interesting!

irrig8r
01-21-2008, 11:11 PM
Ummmm, Joey?

http://www.outdoorlightingdirect.com/unique1.htm

Of course, they sell a lot of other brands too. Even Aurora and Winnona...

http://www.northstarlighting.com/enter.html?target=dept_70.html&lang=en-us&OVRAW=unique%20lighting%20systems&OVKEY=unique%20lighting%20system&OVMTC=standard&OVADID=898472021&OVKWID=5400847021

And I'm not trying to pick on you...

Pro-Scapes
01-21-2008, 11:21 PM
wow... malibu solar and joeys stuff on the same website... say it aint so.

Now I really need to look for a ticket to aolp :)

pete scalia
01-22-2008, 12:19 AM
Easy there Pete. If you think we (Unique) are all about selling a fixture your crazy!!

Who is crazy now Joey?:nono::laugh:

sprinkler guy
01-22-2008, 12:56 AM
Manufacturers get to decide who they will sell to, but have a harder time telling the distributor who he/she gets to sell to. From there, it gets even harder to follow the sale.

For example - Widget Lighting Manufacturer sells his lights to Widget Distribution. Widget Distribution sells his lights within his agreed upon territory to a mom-and-pop supply company, who then turn around and market their avaialble wares over the internet. Does Widget Manufacturer have the legal right to stop mom-and-pop supply from selling his lights? The answer is no. Widget Manufacturering can try and stop Widget Distribution from selling to mom-and-pop supply, but he has to figure out which distributor it is. Until the two-stepping and bootlegging starts to adversely affect Widget Manufacturer's market share, or until enough customers scream loudly enough, not much gets done. As Joey or Steve can tell you, these guys have enough to do that even if this issue is on their list, it isn't at the top. I'm not saying they aren't sensitive to the issue, but it is a pretty small part of the big picture.

pete scalia
01-22-2008, 01:07 AM
Manufacturers get to decide who they will sell to, but have a harder time telling the distributor who he/she gets to sell to. From there, it gets even harder to follow the sale.

For example - Widget Lighting Manufacturer sells his lights to Widget Distribution. Widget Distribution sells his lights within his agreed upon territory to a mom-and-pop supply company, who then turn around and market their avaialble wares over the internet. Does Widget Manufacturer have the legal right to stop mom-and-pop supply from selling his lights? The answer is no. Widget Manufacturering can try and stop Widget Distribution from selling to mom-and-pop supply, but he has to figure out which distributor it is. Until the two-stepping and bootlegging starts to adversely affect Widget Manufacturer's market share, or until enough customers scream loudly enough, not much gets done. As Joey or Steve can tell you, these guys have enough to do that even if this issue is on their list, it isn't at the top. I'm not saying they aren't sensitive to the issue, but it is a pretty small part of the big picture.

Viking appliances has no trouble keeping track of their distribution system. No excuse why lighting manu's can't do the same. And you are incorrect in saying they can't control who they sell to. All the manu does is stop selling to the first company in the equation and guess what the ones down the line can't sell it if they can't get it. No law says you have to sell to anyone. Ever see the sign
WHOLESALE TO THE TRADE ONLY. NO EXCEPTIONS

irrig8r
01-22-2008, 02:10 AM
Ever done a search for various lighting brands on ebay? How does the manufacturer stop those kinds of sales... or does it matter, as long as the regular distribution system works?

I can accept the larger distributors with online retail divisions, but discounts and free design assistance to the general public bothers me. Manufacturers can now legally enforce minimum pricing. Why don't they?

JoeyD
01-22-2008, 09:59 AM
Well, take a look at this then:

http://www.terradek.com/retail.html

I'll assume these are list prices, but still, this clearly states it is a retail site... and another AOLP member...

Unique 500DB - 500W
$ 884.99

Unique 500SS - 500W
$ 615.28

Unique Probe
$ 196.99

Unique Quasar1
$ 196.99

Unique Big Bang
$ 196.99

Unique Pulsar
$ 196.99

Unique Guardian
$ 121.99

Ok my fault, knowing some of you would love to jump on somthing like this I should have been clearer when adressing this.

Unique does not open up ANY "web based" distributors, with that being said Terra Dek is not a web based distributor. They have a real showroom and store front. And if you look at these prices he quoted these are much higher than my standard list price so we would never have a problem with this.

As for some of the other websites posted I will have my National sales Manager confirm but I believe they are bootleggers. They buy from a real distributor when they get an order and then they sell it. Sure they advertise it but none of these guys as far as I am aware of buy direct or have direct relationships with us. I will verify these guys but again I am 99.99% sure that they are not affiliated with any of our real distributors.

Again there is no problem if we have an established distributor like a John Deere, Wolf Creek, Shemin, Horizon, Imperial, etc.... that has a web site, who doesnt. But we do not support web based companies. We sell to distributors in territories and those distributors would be upset if some web based company is stealing customers from them. we protect our distributors in a lot of ways and this is one of them. But some of this stuff we just cant control. If you look at some of these other websites the photos they are using for our products are like 5 years old. Any real distributor would want and would get newer photos and information.

Thanks for all of your research!

Joey D.

JoeyD
01-22-2008, 10:18 AM
[QUOTE=irrig8r;2109618]

http://www.outdoorlightingdirect.com/unique1.htm

QUOTE]

This may be FOLD website. I tried calling the number and got a busy signal. I will keep you guys posted. My National sales Manager is not happy about this!!

Our NSM exact words about the other links posted here, besides TerraDek is "None of these guys are our distributors.."

irrig8r
01-22-2008, 11:04 AM
I did a WHO IS search on outdoorlightingdirect.com. Here are the results:

Registration and WHOIS Service provided by directNIC.com

Intercosmos Media Group, Inc. provides the data in the directNIC.com
Registrar WHOIS database for informational purposes only. The information
may only be used to assist in obtaining information about a domain name's
registration record.

directNIC makes this information available "as is", and does not guarantee
its accuracy.


Registrant:
Florida Outdoor Lighting Dist.
432 Main St. PMB 113
Windermere, FL 34786
US
407-491-7736
Fax:407-876-8540


Domain Name: OUTDOORLIGHTINGDIRECT.COM

Administrative Contact:
McDonald, A.J. folds@cfl.rr.com
432 Main St. PMB 113
Windermere, FL 34786
US
407-491-7736
Fax:407-876-8540


Technical Contact:
McDonald, A.J. folds@cfl.rr.com
432 Main St. PMB 113
Windermere, FL 34786
US
407-491-7736
Fax:407-876-8540


Record expires on 08-09-2008
Record created on 08-09-2005

Domain servers in listed order:
NS1.ONE-RES2.COM 69.20.38.218
NS2.ONE-RES2.COM 69.20.38.219

JoeyD
01-22-2008, 11:07 AM
Registration and WHOIS Service provided by directNIC.com

Intercosmos Media Group, Inc. provides the data in the directNIC.com
Registrar WHOIS database for informational purposes only. The information
may only be used to assist in obtaining information about a domain name's
registration record.

directNIC makes this information available "as is", and does not guarantee
its accuracy.


Registrant:
Florida Outdoor Lighting Dist.
432 Main St. PMB 113
Windermere, FL 34786
US
407-491-7736
Fax:407-876-8540


Domain Name: OUTDOORLIGHTINGDIRECT.COM

Administrative Contact:
McDonald, A.J. folds@cfl.rr.com
432 Main St. PMB 113
Windermere, FL 34786
US
407-491-7736
Fax:407-876-8540


Technical Contact:
McDonald, A.J. folds@cfl.rr.com
432 Main St. PMB 113
Windermere, FL 34786
US
407-491-7736
Fax:407-876-8540


Record expires on 08-09-2008
Record created on 08-09-2005

Domain servers in listed order:
NS1.ONE-RES2.COM 69.20.38.218
NS2.ONE-RES2.COM 69.20.38.219


Thanks Gregg, my NSM has already made this something to discuss with the FOLD boys at AOLP. FOLD is an established distributor as well but they have broken a rule of advertising special pricing on the website. That is a big no no!

irrig8r
01-22-2008, 11:11 AM
Thank you Joey. Let me go on the record saying you are more responsive than some other manufacturers have been about this issue.

JoeyD
01-22-2008, 11:30 AM
Well I think it is BS that a distributor would bassicly say F you guys and be willing to sell to a DIY for just a few dollars more than you buy it for. I eman what does that do for you guys if you are out selling jobs on a per fixture price then you get a homeowner google the products and find this. It really pisses us off!