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YellowDogSVC
01-19-2008, 12:53 PM
Just demoed a CAT 272c with mulcher.
Very impressed with improvements over the B series.
I am making a direct comparison to my s300k series and a 272c both set up for mulching. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to demo my CAT mulcher but they had the bradco/magnum. It performed better than I had expected. I really think the CAT hydraulics beat my Bobcat hands down. Need to grind something real quick with s300 to compare again. Both milled stumps about the same but the CAT did recover much quicker and I felt I had power to spare. Could move the machine and keep mulcher RPMs up. Can't do that with my Bobcat. It seems to take a lot to move the S300 with a heavy head on it. I have run 2 s300k's with mulchers and both seem like dogs compared to the 272c.

Felt clean after an hour of mulching. CAT cab is sealed up well though I haven't figured out how they achieve "sealed and pressurized". The windows and door seal up very similar to the Bobcat but with dust blowing towards the door, nothing entered the cab whereas on my Bobcats you can see dust particles in the cab in most instances.

The 272c seemed more stable on slopes and the air ride is much better than mechanical suspension. I braced myself for areas that would hurt my back in the s300 only to find out the CAT bounced but the seat absorbed all the impact. Good idea CAT.

It is easier to engage the hydro system in the CAT and though I like the bobcat's instrument cluster, the CAT is simple and effective. Cab seems small for a big man, however and leg room isn't all that great for a 6' person but not having to use my feet seemed to be a plus.

Time will tell and I am going to schedule a longer demo where I can dig and compare the power. Too wet yesterday to move dirt but my first impressions were that this was a machine that I could enjoy operating.

Anyone else have similar experiences?

qps
01-19-2008, 02:30 PM
Just demoed a CAT 272c with mulcher.
Very impressed with improvements over the B series.
I am making a direct comparison to my s300k series and a 272c both set up for mulching. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to demo my CAT mulcher but they had the bradco/magnum. It performed better than I had expected. I really think the CAT hydraulics beat my Bobcat hands down. Need to grind something real quick with s300 to compare again. Both milled stumps about the same but the CAT did recover much quicker and I felt I had power to spare. Could move the machine and keep mulcher RPMs up. Can't do that with my Bobcat. It seems to take a lot to move the S300 with a heavy head on it. I have run 2 s300k's with mulchers and both seem like dogs compared to the 272c.

Felt clean after an hour of mulching. CAT cab is sealed up well though I haven't figured out how they achieve "sealed and pressurized". The windows and door seal up very similar to the Bobcat but with dust blowing towards the door, nothing entered the cab whereas on my Bobcats you can see dust particles in the cab in most instances.

The 272c seemed more stable on slopes and the air ride is much better than mechanical suspension. I braced myself for areas that would hurt my back in the s300 only to find out the CAT bounced but the seat absorbed all the impact. Good idea CAT.

It is easier to engage the hydro system in the CAT and though I like the bobcat's instrument cluster, the CAT is simple and effective. Cab seems small for a big man, however and leg room isn't all that great for a 6' person but not having to use my feet seemed to be a plus.

Time will tell and I am going to schedule a longer demo where I can dig and compare the power. Too wet yesterday to move dirt but my first impressions were that this was a machine that I could enjoy operating.

Anyone else have similar experiences?

can only chime in on my 297C:drinkup:

bobcat_ron
01-19-2008, 02:38 PM
I don't want to start any rumors or nothing, but I think Cat might come out with a 282C in the near future, with extra width (72"+ over the tires) and more than just 90 hp.

Also: the AMICS system explained and demonstrated:

http://www.forconstructionpros.com/videonetwork/index.jsp?showid=728567

Fieldman12
01-19-2008, 02:51 PM
Glad to hear you liked it Yellowdog. You know something a skid steer and a CTL has a rougher ride than most types of equipment out there. Thing is though I think all of these companies could learn allot just by looking inside of a newer cab farm tractor. I mean most of this stuff is already in tractors such as the air ride seats and being able to adjust the speed of your hydraulics up and down. A tradional tractor also has no suspension. They are desiged to run as fast as they can now days pulling equipment and still not kill you at the end of the day. I remember back when my buddy bought a 9500 John Deere combine. Man you could run that machine all day and night and that cab would stay clean. To me there is allot to be learned from some of the stuff off farm machinery. Seems that the construction side has been slower about adopting allot of this stuff. Im seeing some of it now come over but there is no reason they could have not had the stuff 12 years ago. Deere has had GPS, autosteer, and have even seen videos of them running up and down the fields with no drivers.

YellowDogSVC
01-19-2008, 03:36 PM
Glad to hear you liked it Yellowdog. You know something a skid steer and a CTL has a rougher ride than most types of equipment out there. Thing is though I think all of these companies could learn allot just by looking inside of a newer cab farm tractor. I mean most of this stuff is already in tractors such as the air ride seats and being able to adjust the speed of your hydraulics up and down. A tradional tractor also has no suspension. They are desiged to run as fast as they can now days pulling equipment and still not kill you at the end of the day. I remember back when my buddy bought a 9500 John Deere combine. Man you could run that machine all day and night and that cab would stay clean. To me there is allot to be learned from some of the stuff off farm machinery. Seems that the construction side has been slower about adopting allot of this stuff. Im seeing some of it now come over but there is no reason they could have not had the stuff 12 years ago. Deere has had GPS, autosteer, and have even seen videos of them running up and down the fields with no drivers.

Good point. My friend runs a new mahindra with cab and air. Really comfy looking cab and seat. Don't think it's air seat but the tires give enough for shock absorbing. Some of the foreign companies seem to be on the ball for ergonomics.

YellowDogSVC
01-19-2008, 03:38 PM
I don't want to start any rumors or nothing, but I think Cat might come out with a 282C in the near future, with extra width (72"+ over the tires) and more than just 90 hp.

Also: the AMICS system explained and demonstrated:

http://www.forconstructionpros.com/videonetwork/index.jsp?showid=728567

Hmmm. Interesting. I think the 272 c is good to go with power to weight ratio. If they kept the weight down and put a slightly bigger displacement motor in, they could have a real powerhouse. I don't think lift capacity for skids really needs to be more than 3300-3500 lbs. That is pushing it for what many of us do anyway and we all know we can lift more than ROC if you are in the right conditions anyway. I would still like to see 99hp net in a skid that weighs 8300 -8500 lbs.

Fieldman12
01-19-2008, 03:50 PM
My buddies dad just bought a new Deere 8330 and a new spliter planter. Maybe I will get to disk with it some this spring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEWrUqxzyIA

YellowDogSVC
01-19-2008, 03:53 PM
Very sweet JD!

Mowingman
01-19-2008, 03:56 PM
If you want to do some heavy duty mulching, step up to a Fecon FTX140 mulcher.It has a 140 HP, John Deere diesel in it. I just started a clearing job with one this past Tues. What a machine. The trees and brush are so thick I can not see past the mulching head. It is like driving into a wall. I am still able to clear about 4 acres/day, even in these heavy conditions. It works great on anything up to about 8". Above that size, it will work, but it the progress is a lot slower.

YellowDogSVC
01-19-2008, 04:20 PM
If you want to do some heavy duty mulching, step up to a Fecon FTX140 mulcher.It has a 140 HP, John Deere diesel in it. I just started a clearing job with one this past Tues. What a machine. The trees and brush are so thick I can not see past the mulching head. It is like driving into a wall. I am still able to clear about 4 acres/day, even in these heavy conditions. It works great on anything up to about 8". Above that size, it will work, but it the progress is a lot slower.

I'm just not into a dedicated unit at this time due to weight and limit of uses.
I also shear and chip with a BC2000 chipper with loader for the bigger trees. It's a lot cleaner than mulching the trees in place and a lot of my customers actually prefer the shear/chip method. I mainly grind brush piles and occasionally grind a whole building lot but not often unless it's the small stuff with occasional larger trees. Though I hate tree shearing, it is such a clean way to clear and their isn't a thick litter of shreds. Some areas need the shreds but many do not. We find a myriad of uses for the chips, however, and most of the customers don't mind them being left though some pay me to haul them off.

If I was going into a dedicated mulcher, I would look at the 175hp and above range so that I could really do some damage.

Tigerotor77W
01-19-2008, 06:46 PM
I haven't figured out how they achieve "sealed and pressurized".

I can't say I "know" how it's sealed, but I am very proud of the engineers who worked on the design. A cab isn't as simple as it looks; getting the sealing perfectly right was no simple task.

SiteSolutions
01-19-2008, 07:19 PM
This is truly monumental. Yellow Dog running a Cat. Years from now I'll remember what I was doing when I read this post.

P.Services
01-19-2008, 07:35 PM
If you want to do some heavy duty mulching, step up to a Fecon FTX140 mulcher.It has a 140 HP, John Deere diesel in it. I just started a clearing job with one this past Tues. What a machine. The trees and brush are so thick I can not see past the mulching head. It is like driving into a wall. I am still able to clear about 4 acres/day, even in these heavy conditions. It works great on anything up to about 8". Above that size, it will work, but it the progress is a lot slower.

i agree, i just ran a ftx 130 for awhile. what a animal!!!! until a tooth broke off and the vibration was so bad i had to stop.

YellowDogSVC
01-19-2008, 08:11 PM
This is truly monumental. Yellow Dog running a Cat. Years from now I'll remember what I was doing when I read this post.

I will be running a bobcat on Monday. Unless CAT gives me a really sweet deal in an effort to lure me away from Bobcat, I probably can't afford to lose my equity in the s300k which only has 400 hours.

bobcat_ron
01-19-2008, 09:18 PM
They gave me what I wanted for my beat-to-hell T190, so see what happens.

ksss
01-19-2008, 09:22 PM
If you can wait you may want to compare the 465 Series 3 machine against the CAT. I think it would be an interesting comparison.

YellowDogSVC
01-19-2008, 10:13 PM
If you can wait you may want to compare the 465 Series 3 machine against the CAT. I think it would be an interesting comparison.

tell me more

ksss
01-19-2008, 10:42 PM
tell me more


The machines will be unveiled in March. The machines are getting improvements across the board, the cabs, the engines are getting more hp and serviceability improvements. I would like to here what you think of this new machine when compared to the BC and the C series.

P.Services
01-19-2008, 11:12 PM
this is what will get it done..... more pics of it under my link

YellowDogSVC
01-19-2008, 11:35 PM
this is what will get it done..... more pics of it under my link

No offense to what you are doing but that type of clearing looks awful if it isn't reground and smoothed out and I would get fired for sure running a steel tracked machine over limestone formations and sensitive areas. I work for some very high end property owners who want "park-like" not crunch and munch. Everyone and their brother blows and goes and I am picking up cleanup work like crazy. Brush mowers with a trap door, ie, the smaller units, leave an excellent mulch base that is uniform and finely shredded. A machine running a fecon like the one pictured recently did a job for a shrine here in Texas. The mess left really upset the nuns and the church members. I came in and fixed it and cleared a similar area using shear, chip, and mow technique and it turned out like a park..smooth and walkable.

YellowDogSVC
01-19-2008, 11:38 PM
The machines will be unveiled in March. The machines are getting improvements across the board, the cabs, the engines are getting more hp and serviceability improvements. I would like to here what you think of this new machine when compared to the BC and the C series.

They should let people know what's out there. That's how they lose a sale. The last time a brand picked me up, I was good for 10 attachments and 9 brand new skid steers.. :)

Mowingman
01-19-2008, 11:42 PM
The Fecon can do a finer grind if you back through those chips in the photo, You can reduce them a lot, and really till them into the soil. However, on a large clearing project, where acres/day count, the photo is about the average size of shredded material you get.
I am on a 30 acre tract now, but am preparing to move to a 180 acre place next. The growth is so bad I can not see past the mulching head. I need the Fecon to mulch a lot every day, and large chunks are not a problem.
The steel tracks do tear things up a lot, so I can see where you would need a smaller machine for the kind of work you are describing.

P.Services
01-19-2008, 11:42 PM
No offense to what you are doing but that type of clearing looks awful if it isn't reground and smoothed out and I would get fired for sure running a steel tracked machine over limestone formations and sensitive areas. I work for some very high end property owners who want "park-like" not crunch and munch. Everyone and their brother blows and goes and I am picking up cleanup work like crazy. Brush mowers with a trap door, ie, the smaller units, leave an excellent mulch base that is uniform and finely shredded. A machine running a fecon like the one pictured recently did a job for a shrine here in Texas. The mess left really upset the nuns and the church members. I came in and fixed it and cleared a similar area using shear, chip, and mow technique and it turned out like a park..smooth and walkable.

i know what you mean but on this job we didnt need to grind it up perfect at all. it was just getting mowed down so they could see the lake from up on the hill before they buy the lot. the lots are getting graded with areas getting 4 and 5 feet of fill on them. and there is no limestone any place on the job so the steel tracks didnt matter.

YellowDogSVC
01-20-2008, 12:45 AM
The Fecon can do a finer grind if you back through those chips in the photo, You can reduce them a lot, and really till them into the soil. However, on a large clearing project, where acres/day count, the photo is about the average size of shredded material you get.
I am on a 30 acre tract now, but am preparing to move to a 180 acre place next. The growth is so bad I can not see past the mulching head. I need the Fecon to mulch a lot every day, and large chunks are not a problem.
The steel tracks do tear things up a lot, so I can see where you would need a smaller machine for the kind of work you are describing.

that makes sense. I try and work on 10AC and less and find that here in this part of Tx, the ranchettes pay better than the large acreage. I'm in cedar country and it is thick as thieves around here and the terrain is very unaccomodating thus a lot of work I do is shearing.

I don't have anything against the big boys but I'm at the finesse level of service with these smaller tracts where the owner will get out and ride a horse or walk. I understand that on larger acreage, it isn't feasible to make it park-like. You gotta do what you can do to move across that much acreage and not many people can afford to turn 180AC into an overnight park.

YellowDogSVC
01-20-2008, 12:47 AM
i know what you mean but on this job we didnt need to grind it up perfect at all. it was just getting mowed down so they could see the lake from up on the hill before they buy the lot. the lots are getting graded with areas getting 4 and 5 feet of fill on them. and there is no limestone any place on the job so the steel tracks didnt matter.

That makes sense.. See my other post. I work on the smaller projects and that's why I'm pursuing the best smaller, versatile machine I can find that will also work a shear, grapple, mower, along with the mulching capabilities and still provide some level of dirt work should I need it. I basically like to have a swiss army knife of a machine when I start a project. It's the only way I can work solo.

YellowDogSVC
01-23-2008, 10:19 PM
I can't say I "know" how it's sealed, but I am very proud of the engineers who worked on the design. A cab isn't as simple as it looks; getting the sealing perfectly right was no simple task.

Sorry to beat a dead horse but this is one thing I am hung up on. I just want to understand how the cab is pressurized so I know that it isn't just an advertising point and isn't really "pressurized" to keep dust from entering. Seriously, I wonder if it will really be zero dust. The bobcat, while it gets dusty, is fully washable and I can drain all crap out the foot when I am at the car wash. I wonder if the CAT cab can be washed the same way? I like clean equipment (other than my chipper).

My environment can get really dusty in the right conditions and I wonder if the cab will stay clean. I was impressed for the short time I was in it the other day but 8 hours in the dust?

bobcat_ron
01-23-2008, 10:30 PM
The pitch on the squirrel cage blower on the fan is set to provide more pressure with out more air flow, kinda like a compressor.

qps
01-23-2008, 10:48 PM
Sorry to beat a dead horse but this is one thing I am hung up on. I just want to understand how the cab is pressurized so I know that it isn't just an advertising point and isn't really "pressurized" to keep dust from entering. Seriously, I wonder if it will really be zero dust. The bobcat, while it gets dusty, is fully washable and I can drain all crap out the foot when I am at the car wash. I wonder if the CAT cab can be washed the same way? I like clean equipment (other than my chipper).

My environment can get really dusty in the right conditions and I wonder if the cab will stay clean. I was impressed for the short time I was in it the other day but 8 hours in the dust?


I can't say about eight hours but I ran mine with a Harley power rake for a couple of hours at a time and no dust.....

YellowDogSVC
01-23-2008, 11:16 PM
Anyone try the CAT mower with the C series?

Tigerotor77W
01-24-2008, 01:39 AM
Sorry to beat a dead horse but this is one thing I am hung up on. I just want to understand how the cab is pressurized so I know that it isn't just an advertising point and isn't really "pressurized" to keep dust from entering. Seriously, I wonder if it will really be zero dust. The bobcat, while it gets dusty, is fully washable and I can drain all crap out the foot when I am at the car wash. I wonder if the CAT cab can be washed the same way? I like clean equipment (other than my chipper).

My environment can get really dusty in the right conditions and I wonder if the cab will stay clean. I was impressed for the short time I was in it the other day but 8 hours in the dust?

Good questions... I'm not sure what to expect, either. Let me try to get back to you in a couple of days.

Tigerotor77W
01-24-2008, 11:23 AM
I just want to understand how the cab is pressurized so I know that it isn't just an advertising point and isn't really "pressurized" to keep dust from entering.

Response:

"Good Morning,
Yes we have a Pressurized System. The C-Series incorporates an industry-first modular style cab design that creates a cleaner and quieter operator station. The sealed and pressurized cab features a high-powered HVAC fan that pulls filtered air into the cab and circulates it throughout the operator's station. This clean air environment reduces contaminate exposure and increases overall operator comfort in dusty applications. Also yes it is fully washable and drainage is under the floor mat. take a peek.
Case has the new cab redesign @ World of Concrete 2008."

YellowDogSVC
01-24-2008, 04:59 PM
Response:

"Good Morning,
Yes we have a Pressurized System. The C-Series incorporates an industry-first modular style cab design that creates a cleaner and quieter operator station. The sealed and pressurized cab features a high-powered HVAC fan that pulls filtered air into the cab and circulates it throughout the operator's station. This clean air environment reduces contaminate exposure and increases overall operator comfort in dusty applications. Also yes it is fully washable and drainage is under the floor mat. take a peek.
Case has the new cab redesign @ World of Concrete 2008."

That sounds a little like sales speak :dizzy: but makes sense. I have heard that even though it is a high powered system, you have to clean out the outside filters often when grinding or working in really dusty conditions. That doesn't bother me as I am used to blowing out my Bobcat's compartments and the little filter I keep over the radiators.

Thanks for the followup!

Tigerotor77W
01-24-2008, 08:45 PM
you have to clean out the outside filters often when grinding or working in really dusty conditions.

Not a problem. This is true -- you do have to clean out the outside filters pretty regularly... but it's a matter of opening the grille, smacking the filter a few times, and putting it back in, I think. I know that in the dust of North Carolina, operators were emptying the filters at least once a day.

(And yes, it was sales speak... my apologies. :) )

Ridin' Around
01-24-2008, 10:28 PM
Just wondering why the ASV 100 isn't discussed more? I ran one of those last fall with the Fecon head on it and was very impressed. Enlighten me as you fellas often do!

YellowDogSVC
01-24-2008, 10:35 PM
Not a problem. This is true -- you do have to clean out the outside filters pretty regularly... but it's a matter of opening the grille, smacking the filter a few times, and putting it back in, I think. I know that in the dust of North Carolina, operators were emptying the filters at least once a day.

(And yes, it was sales speak... my apologies. :) ) No apologies necessary. I appreciate all the info while I crunch the numbers and list my pros and cons. :)

BIGBEN2004
01-28-2008, 09:52 AM
Has anyone ran a flail mower attachment before? I might have a job coming up that will require mowing along all the fence rows on a very large horse breeding farm. It will only be allot of grasses and thorn bush type material no trees. Would a flail mower work in these type conditions? Also what should I charge? I normally get $75.00 an hour for excavation work with my machine. I would be renting the mower attachment and it rents for $200.00 a day or $700.00 for a week. Does that sound high to any of you all. I am sure if I price around I can rent it cheaper at another rental place. Please chime in as I have not gone to price this job out yet and plane on doing it on a hourly base. I was thinking around $90.00 to $95.00 an hour or is that too high?

bobcat_ron
01-28-2008, 11:31 AM
Flails are the best for thick grass, I run an Alitec on my Cat and before it was on my high-flow T190, it went through 4 feet of tall thick grass, you need to take it easy though, but it works more efficiently than a 2 blade rotary mower. The faster you can get the flail knives to spin, the better, mine was on 24 GPM and the knives were spinning at roughly 72 mp/h, I had our local Bobcat dealer throw it on a, S300 with the high flow and it was scary how much faster it would spin.

Try to look for one that has adjustable pulleys from the rotor shaft to the motor, mine is easy to switch to get more power over speed or the other way around depending on oil flow, seems my Cat runs it better on standard loader flow (15 GPM) due to the higher pressure that Cat has in the aux. system.

I charged $80 p/hr for mine but it seemed no rental out fit had them, only the "lower maintenance" rotary mowers.

Construct'O
01-28-2008, 11:46 AM
If you have to rent i would try to line up more jobs when you was going to do the job.That way rent by the week then you can make extra money by having enough work for the lower rent price by the week.

Plus you never know you might have something that needs mowed at home before the weeks rent was up,then you could use it to clean up around home.

If you see that you have enough jobs to keep it busy,i would try to buy later,but for now to see if you could pickup more work by having it i would just rent.Good luck.

BIGBEN2004
01-28-2008, 12:38 PM
Yea I have to go look at the job and see how many days I think it will take. If it is 3 or more days then I will rent by the week and then bring it home and clean up some fence rows on our farm. If work did start coming for this type of work then I would buy a mower but for now I will just rent.

bobcatboy
01-29-2008, 12:39 AM
yellow dog, why dont you try a s330 with joystick controls and your cutting head.

YellowDogSVC
01-29-2008, 12:47 AM
yellow dog, why dont you try a s330 with joystick controls and your cutting head.

Here's the short version. S330 is almost 1000lbs heavier, has bigger tires, and still has a lousy sealing cab and substandard cooling and AC compared to the new CATs
S330 is rated at 83.7 hp net. CAT is rated at 90 hp net. I want the extra power to turn the pump. I would like to see a torque comparison but I wonder why bobcat doesn't use an intercooler to get more hp out of it's motors?
I'm very disappointed in my s300's ability to keep my 37 gpm pump up to speed when the machine is under load and the dust thing is driving me nuts. I'm tired of tape, foam, and silicone to keep the dust out of my cabs. Other than that, Bobcat is a very reliable and for most of what I do, adequately powered machine but I just want better ergonomics.
I wasn't happy with Bobcat's Advanced hand controls. They were awful. Are the joysticks of today any better?
Anyone know how much torque a 272c puts out?

Digdeep
01-29-2008, 10:04 AM
The 272C puts out 217 ft lbs of peak torque out of their 3.3L engine. The new Bobcat T320 is 92 net hp and is supposed to put out 232 ft lbs out of their 3.8L engine. I would imagine that since the S330 is using the same engine, only with a little less hp it would be very close in terms of torque to the 272C.

YellowDogSVC
01-29-2008, 10:43 AM
The 272C puts out 217 ft lbs of peak torque out of their 3.3L engine. The new Bobcat T320 is 92 net hp and is supposed to put out 232 ft lbs out of their 3.8L engine. I would imagine that since the S330 is using the same engine, only with a little less hp it would be very close in terms of torque to the 272C.

That seems about right for the weight of the 330. If it wasn't so dang heavy, the extra torque would be great.

ksss
01-29-2008, 12:30 PM
The 272C puts out 217 ft lbs of peak torque out of their 3.3L engine. The new Bobcat T320 is 92 net hp and is supposed to put out 232 ft lbs out of their 3.8L engine. I would imagine that since the S330 is using the same engine, only with a little less hp it would be very close in terms of torque to the 272C.

That seems very low (217 footpounds) for that size of machine. It is also important at what rpm it makes its rated torque level at. I have 265 in my 465 and I was just talking to the powers that be last week saying that I would like to see 300 foot pounds out of that machine. Are you sure that torque rating is correct? That would perhaps explain why they don't list it in comparisons. I have never been able to find the torque rating of CAT or Bobcat.

Digdeep
01-29-2008, 12:48 PM
That seems very low (217 footpounds) for that size of machine. It is also important at what rpm it makes its rated torque level at. I have 265 in my 465 and I was just talking to the powers that be last week saying that I would like to see 300 foot pounds out of that machine. Are you sure that torque rating is correct? That would perhaps explain why they don't list it in comparisons. I have never been able to find the torque rating of CAT or Bobcat.

The numbers are correct. I had a CAT rep hunt the information down for me when the machine came out. I don't know what the RPM is in relation to the torque value, but remember it is only a 3.3L engine. As a matter of fact, it is the same Mitsubishi engine that is/was in the 277/287B series, only tuned up and aftercooled.

ASCHAL45
01-29-2008, 01:00 PM
So What do yall think about the ASV 100 for brush clearing.

Digdeep
01-29-2008, 01:09 PM
So What do yall think about the ASV 100 for brush clearing.

I can't speak from experience because I don't own one or brush cut, but as far as high flow (38 gpm) and engine hp and torque (92 net out of a 4.4L engine and 304 ft lbs of torque) nothing comes close. I have seen quite a few up here in WI with mulchers (I saw 3 Asplundh trucks and trailers a couple weeks ago with them).

I also understand from my dealer that ASV did some sort of hydraulic hp test at their dealer meeting that showed that no other machines came close to matching actual hp to the mulchers although other high flow machines have similar calculated hydraulic hp on paper. That is where the engine torque comes into play. I would contact your nearest ASV dealer to ask for a demo and information from them.

Ridin' Around
01-29-2008, 01:37 PM
I can't speak from experience because I don't own one or brush cut, but as far as high flow (38 gpm) and engine hp and torque (92 net out of a 4.4L engine and 304 ft lbs of torque) nothing comes close. I have seen quite a few up here in WI with mulchers (I saw 3 Asplundh trucks and trailers a couple weeks ago with them).

I also understand from my dealer that ASV did some sort of hydraulic hp test at their dealer meeting that showed that no other machines came close to matching actual hp to the mulchers although other high flow machines have similar calculated hydraulic hp on paper. That is where the engine torque comes into play. I would contact your nearest ASV dealer to ask for a demo and information from them.

I also saw that Actual to Paper HP example it was very good reading. I will try to get it and post it. Not sure if they will let me have it!

Ridin' Around
01-29-2008, 01:55 PM
I also saw that Actual to Paper HP example it was very good reading. I will try to get it and post it. Not sure if they will let me have it!

This is going to stir it up, I'm sure. It came from my dealer & I didn't tell him why I wanted it. Take it for a read. It was the sales training from an ASV sales meeting. Don't tell anyone it came from me!!

bobcat_ron
01-29-2008, 02:20 PM
Holy cow, they did their homework!

Digdeep
01-29-2008, 03:24 PM
This is going to stir it up, I'm sure. It came from my dealer & I didn't tell him why I wanted it. Take it for a read. It was the sales training from an ASV sales meeting. Don't tell anyone it came from me!!

I'm sure that will get somebody's blood boiling at ASV that that got out onto a public website, but at the same time it looks like they were very thorough. Factoring in the engine sizes of the competitive machines in their graph my bet that it is pretty darn accurate. Thanks for sharing.

ksss
01-29-2008, 04:44 PM
I did not see the data on the 465. I become skeptical when I see some machines omitted, makes me ask why. I still cant believe that the biggest machines in CATs SSL and MTL line up only have 217 foot pounds of torque.

Ridin' Around
01-29-2008, 04:48 PM
I did not see the data on the 465. I become skeptical when I see some machines omitted, makes me ask why. I still cant believe that the biggest machines in CATs SSL and MTL line up only have 217 foot pounds of torque.

my guess on that is that the 465 is a wheeled machine and they like to stick to the tracked units since that is their market.

Digdeep
01-29-2008, 04:55 PM
I did not see the data on the 465. I become skeptical when I see some machines omitted, makes me ask why. I still cant believe that the biggest machines in CATs SSL and MTL line up only have 217 foot pounds of torque.

I remember going to yearly training with Bobcat down in AZ and all the competitor's models weren't represented and all of them didn't have high flow. My guess is that the Case 450CT machine falls somewhere between the New Holland and the John Deere.

I can believe the torque values. The T320 is 3.8L vs the CAT 3.3L, turbo charged, 92hp and only has 232 ft lbs. I saw that on their spec sheet.

The ASV SR80 uses the same Mitsubishi 3.3L engine that the CAT C series uses and it delivers 186 ft lbs. There is only a 10hp difference out of the same displacement engine.

ksss
01-29-2008, 05:13 PM
Thats possible, but the Deere shows 251 foot pounds to the 263 out of either the 465,450 or 450CT or the 440CT. I don't honestly know how much difference that makes in hyd. performance, another perhaps smaller issue is the Deere although it has a five cylinder engine, is almost 100 cubic inches smaller in displacement.

ksss
01-29-2008, 05:18 PM
Your right on the tracks comparison, but what I found slightly interesting is that if my info is correct the Deere tracked machine is slightly detuned from the wheel machine specs. The 450CT is slightly increased. The difference is only about 5 hp and it does not change the torque specs on the 450CT. I don't have torque specs on the tracked Deere so I would assume it would be the same as the wheeled machine.

Digdeep
01-29-2008, 05:42 PM
I'm not engineer, but I've tried to never get too caught up with just the engine hp. To me the biggest decider in a machines capability to deliver hydraulic power to the attachment is the ability of the engine to drive that pump while there is a load on it. That power is a product of the engine's torque. There is a big difference in torque between the RC100 (304 ft lbs), the Bobcat T320 (232 ft lbs) and the 272C (217 ft pounds) yet they are all very close in engine hp based on the spec sheets and what was just posted- RC100 (92 net hp), T320 (92 net hp) and the 272C (90 net hp). I think that engine displacement is a primary factor here RC100 (4.4L) T320 (3.8L) and 272C (3.3L). If anyone here understands this better than me please chime in.

ksss
01-29-2008, 05:58 PM
I'm not engineer, but I've tried to never get too caught up with just the engine hp. To me the biggest decider in a machines capability to deliver hydraulic power to the attachment is the ability of the engine to drive that pump while there is a load on it. That power is a product of the engine's torque. There is a big difference in torque between the RC100 (304 ft lbs), the Bobcat T320 (232 ft lbs) and the 272C (217 ft pounds) yet they are all very close in engine hp based on the spec sheets and what was just posted- RC100 (92 net hp), T320 (92 net hp) and the 272C (90 net hp). I think that engine displacement is a primary factor here RC100 (4.4L) T320 (3.8L) and 272C (3.3L). If anyone here understands this better than me please chime in.

I would agree. It seems hp is always the number everyone focuses on. It probably should be torque.

YellowDogSVC
01-29-2008, 06:34 PM
That seems very low (217 footpounds) for that size of machine. It is also important at what rpm it makes its rated torque level at. I have 265 in my 465 and I was just talking to the powers that be last week saying that I would like to see 300 foot pounds out of that machine. Are you sure that torque rating is correct? That would perhaps explain why they don't list it in comparisons. I have never been able to find the torque rating of CAT or Bobcat.

My s300k puts out 211.7 at 1400 rpms. Seems kinda low on the rpms? I run at 2400 most days so what is this telling me?

YellowDogSVC
01-29-2008, 06:51 PM
And no wonder it feels like a dog.

I think KSSS is right about focusing on torque vs. just hp now that I think about it and dig deep's point about ability to deliver that hydraulic performance is important.
Seems to me that the more efficient the machine is at making hp, delivering flow, and then the weight of the machine (because it has to move) are all factors in how well it will perform. If the machine is lighter and the specs are close to a bigger, heavier machine's specs, I would think the lighter machine would perform many tasks better with it's power or torque to weight ratio especially in applications where you are fighting gravity.

YellowDogSVC
01-29-2008, 06:55 PM
This is going to stir it up, I'm sure.

yeah, I think you stirred it up. *trucewhiteflag* :laugh:

Ridin' Around
01-29-2008, 06:58 PM
yeah, I think you stirred it up. *trucewhiteflag* :laugh:

That's what I live for and this site never disappoints.

YellowDogSVC
01-29-2008, 07:31 PM
That's what I live for and this site never disappoints.

Puts a smile on my face! If the dang manufacturers would either A) build the best machine or B) tell the truth, we wouldn't need post and read top secret material. Geez, I tell people when I can't do something or can't do it as good as the competition. Why present yourself as something you are not? With that said, I still think manufacturers tests are skewed one way.. I would like to see an independent test. In case the manufacturers are reading this, I'd be happy to test out your products. I won't charge a dime!

Digdeep
01-29-2008, 08:58 PM
The hydraulic hp test would be pretty straight forward and could be done without any bias. All a guy would need would be a real good quality flow meter. Hook the flow meter up to the high flow couplers and activate the hydraulics. Once the oil temp is warm put the machine to full throttle so that the machine is putting out maximum flow. Steadily put a load on the flow meter and record the flow and pressure at specific intervals just like the ASV comparison. At a certain point of flow and pressure you would have your maximum hydraulic hp at the flow meter. As your pressure increases you would also see a drop in flow as the load starts to overcome the ability of the engine to drive the flow out of the pump. At some point the pump wouldn't be able to put any flow out. I would bet that ASV did something very similar. It would actually actually be a pretty neat test to do. I think you could also observe the cooling system of each machine too. As the pressure increased so would heat.

YellowDogSVC
01-29-2008, 09:09 PM
The hydraulic hp test would be pretty straight forward and could be done without any bias. All a guy would need would be a real good quality flow meter. Hook the flow meter up to the high flow couplers and activate the hydraulics. Once the oil temp is warm put the machine to full throttle so that the machine is putting out maximum flow. Steadily put a load on the flow meter and record the flow and pressure at specific intervals just like the ASV comparison. At a certain point of flow and pressure you would have your maximum hydraulic hp at the flow meter. As your pressure increases you would also see a drop in flow as the load starts to overcome the ability of the engine to drive the flow out of the pump. At some point the pump wouldn't be able to put any flow out. I would bet that ASV did something very similar. It would actually actually be a pretty neat test to do. I think you could also observe the cooling system of each machine too. As the pressure increased so would heat.

I've done that at Bobcat when I was suspect of my machines performance and found out in one case, my machine was putting out more flow than it should have. That was back on a 30.9 gpm machine. It was putting out 33.

Digdeep
01-29-2008, 11:20 PM
I've done that at Bobcat when I was suspect of my machines performance and found out in one case, my machine was putting out more flow than it should have. That was back on a 30.9 gpm machine. It was putting out 33.

Bobcat uses a gear pump instead of a piston pump and most gear pumps will put out more flow tha nthe spec sheet shows. On the flip side gear pumps aren't as efficient a piston pumps. Having sold Bobcats I'm not a fan of the belt driven pump they use. IMO it's not as effective as a direct driven pump especially when the pump has a heavy load on it.

YellowDogSVC
01-29-2008, 11:31 PM
Bobcat uses a gear pump instead of a piston pump and most gear pumps will put out more flow tha nthe spec sheet shows. On the flip side gear pumps aren't as efficient a piston pumps. Having sold Bobcats I'm not a fan of the belt driven pump they use. IMO it's not as effective as a direct driven pump especially when the pump has a heavy load on it.

which machine would you recommend as being efficient and powerful in hydraulics and under 9k lbs.?

Digdeep
01-30-2008, 01:04 PM
which machine would you recommend as being efficient and powerful in hydraulics and under 9k lbs.?

I would say that if you're set on a wheeled machine that the CAT 272C would have the best hydraulic system since it is the machine that the CAT 292C is based off of. The charts that were posted pretty clearly show that it puts out 55 actual hydraulic hp. Most of the other tracked machines in the ASV comparison are also based off of skid steer frames with just the undercarriage bolted to the original chassis. their hydraulic hp's are not near what the CAT has. You might also look at the Case 465. It is pretty clear also that the ASV RC100 has the hydraulic hp of any machine on the market, but I don't think you are looking for a track machine. Good luck.

AWJ Services
01-30-2008, 02:43 PM
Are there any tests available that tests the skid steers at multiple rpms?
You can Make alot of Hyd/Hp at say WOT but if you pull the engine down under a load say 1000 rpms the one with the most hyd/hp there would recover faster.

YellowDogSVC
01-30-2008, 04:47 PM
I would say that if you're set on a wheeled machine that the CAT 272C would have the best hydraulic system since it is the machine that the CAT 292C is based off of. The charts that were posted pretty clearly show that it puts out 55 actual hydraulic hp. Most of the other tracked machines in the ASV comparison are also based off of skid steer frames with just the undercarriage bolted to the original chassis. their hydraulic hp's are not near what the CAT has. You might also look at the Case 465. It is pretty clear also that the ASV RC100 has the hydraulic hp of any machine on the market, but I don't think you are looking for a track machine. Good luck.

cat tells me they put out just over 78 actual hydraulic hp. 55 hp would not be much at all for a brush mower. Yikes, i hope that data is flawed. I can imagine what the bobcat would put out.

BIGBEN2004
01-30-2008, 06:00 PM
After you all started talking about aux. hydralics flow will my TL130 Takeuchi be able to handle a 72" flail mower? My machince only produces 18.0 gpm. Is that enough gpm to operate a flail mower or is it not going to spin the blades fast enough.

Digdeep
01-30-2008, 06:11 PM
cat tells me they put out just over 78 actual hydraulic hp. 55 hp would not be much at all for a brush mower. Yikes, i hope that data is flawed. I can imagine what the bobcat would put out.

The CAT machine does put out 78 theoretical hydraulic hp. The ASV report that Ridin' Around posted shows that the actual hp is only 55. I tend to beleive that since they only have a 3.3L engine, 217 ft lbs of torque, still have to use oil to raise and lower the loader arms and tilt cylinders, run the A/C system, turn the tires (I assume you'll be putting over the tire tracks on them), etc. All of these functions consume engine hp and use hyd. fluid. The CAT system only starts at 33gpm. Don't worry it will still run a brush mower but not at anywhere near 78 hyd. hp. The machine only has 90 net engine hp. If it produced 78 for the hydraulics that would only leave 12 engine hp for the rest of the functions. A/C compressors usually use up about 5hp. You can't produce more hyd. hp than the engine produces. The Bobcat T300 was in that comparison and I think it only put out about 46 actual hyd. hp.

Digdeep
01-30-2008, 06:16 PM
After you all started talking about aux. hydralics flow will my TL130 Takeuchi be able to handle a 72" flail mower? My machince only produces 18.0 gpm. Is that enough gpm to operate a flail mower or is it not going to spin the blades fast enough.

I think it will run it but you'll just have to go real slow and not try to get into real thick stuff.

Ridin' Around
01-30-2008, 06:16 PM
The CAT machine does put out 78 theoretical hydraulic hp. The ASV report that Ridin' Around posted shows that the actual hp is only 55. I tend to beleive that since they only have a 3.3L engine, 217 ft lbs of torque, still have to use oil to raise and lower the loader arms and tilt cylinders, run the A/C system, turn the tires (I assume you'll be putting over the tire tracks on them), etc. All of these functions consume engine hp and use hyd. fluid. The CAT system only starts at 33gpm. Don't worry it will still run a brush mower but not at anywhere near 78 hyd. hp. The machine only has 90 net engine hp. If it produced 78 for the hydraulics that would only leave 12 engine hp for the rest of the functions. A/C compressors usually use up about 5hp. You can't produce more hyd. hp than the engine produces. The Bobcat T300 was in that comparison and I think it only put out about 46 actual hyd. hp.

BUT HIS SALESMAN SAID...:laugh:

Digdeep
01-30-2008, 06:19 PM
Are there any tests available that tests the skid steers at multiple rpms?
You can Make alot of Hyd/Hp at say WOT but if you pull the engine down under a load say 1000 rpms the one with the most hyd/hp there would recover faster.

I think you could run the test with a flow meter at any engine RPM but most hydraulic pumps are made to run at high rpm to maximize their flow.

Digdeep
01-30-2008, 06:25 PM
BUT HIS SALESMAN SAID...:laugh:

I know where YellowDogSVC is coming from. I sold Bobcats for over 8 years and tryied to tell the customers what they needed to know. Truth is that many salesmen really don't understand hydraulics, engine hp, etc. They are taught to spit out what the spec sheet says and what the manufacturer tells them during training. I'm not a hydraulic engineer but I made a big effort to understand as much as I could about the machines I was selling. I feel this helped me assist the customer to make a good decision based on his applications and needs. Now I teach 8th grade math to young men and women hoping to teach them to look beyond what the book says and understand "why". Sometimes I miss selling but I like the steady hours, summers off to contract on my own terms with the two machines I bought, and fish as much as I can.

YellowDogSVC
01-30-2008, 06:26 PM
i don't think 18 gpm assuming 3000 psi, would be adequate for a 6 foot mower even if it is a low flow. Maybe on light grass but I think the flail speed would be slow and the knives would fall back when cutting leaving uncut vegetation.

Digdeep
01-30-2008, 06:28 PM
i don't think 18 gpm assuming 3000 psi, would be adequate for a 6 foot mower even if it is a low flow. Maybe on light grass but I think the flail speed would be slow and the knives would fall back when cutting leaving uncut vegetation.

I agree. Move slow and stick to grass and you'll be happy.

YellowDogSVC
01-30-2008, 06:32 PM
The CAT machine does put out 78 theoretical hydraulic hp. The ASV report that Ridin' Around posted shows that the actual hp is only 55. I tend to beleive that since they only have a 3.3L engine, 217 ft lbs of torque, still have to use oil to raise and lower the loader arms and tilt cylinders, run the A/C system, turn the tires (I assume you'll be putting over the tire tracks on them), etc. All of these functions consume engine hp and use hyd. fluid. The CAT system only starts at 33gpm. Don't worry it will still run a brush mower but not at anywhere near 78 hyd. hp. The machine only has 90 net engine hp. If it produced 78 for the hydraulics that would only leave 12 engine hp for the rest of the functions. A/C compressors usually use up about 5hp. You can't produce more hyd. hp than the engine produces. The Bobcat T300 was in that comparison and I think it only put out about 46 actual hyd. hp.


I still don't want to believe that 55 actual hp is what is turning a brush mower. That would certainly fall into the " this machine sucks" category when you figure the costs of a new machine and mower head.

Digdeep
01-30-2008, 06:50 PM
I still don't want to believe that 55 actual hp is what is turning a brush mower. That would certainly fall into the " this machine sucks" category when you figure the costs of a new machine and mower head.

Remember that all manufacturers print their specs and salesmen sell from them. There are many people out there running brush mowers on machines with less "actual" hyd. hp than the CAT machine.

The thing that I found interesting in the attachment that Ridin'Around posted was that the ASV RC100 actually had a high hyd. hp above what their spec sheet says is 3300psi. I'm sure it has something to do with the fact that they use a load sensing pump and definitely the engine torque. the other track machines represented in the comparison were way less than the RC100 and about 10 actual hp less than the CAT. Of course the Case 465 was not tested since it is a wheeled machine and they only tested some track machines but I don't think it will be as high as the CAT machine because it uses a gear pump and CAT uses a load sensing system too but I could be wrong. All it would take is for you to go to the Case dealer and ask them to hook up a flow meter to their machine. Turn up the pressure on the flow meter until the flow starts to fall and measure where the hyd hp is at it's highest. It seems like a pretty straightforward test that anyone could do. I applaud ASV for going to the length to lay it out like they did. Although I'm sure they won't be too happy that Ridin'Around posted it. In any case it looks pretty accurate as to what you could expect out at the attachment for hyd. hp.

BIGBEN2004
01-30-2008, 06:58 PM
I called the dealership and asked them. The man I deal with all the time is going to call the rental place and find out what specs the mower needs. He suggested a bush hog mower instead and said I could run a 60" fine but a 72" would be pushing it. That kinda sucks since my machine is 66" wide oh well. What do you all think of a bush hog? Do they do a good job? Just for curiosity he is going to work up some numbers on buying one for me.

AWJ Services
01-30-2008, 07:12 PM
Ask to demo the mower before buying it.
I did not know Bushhog made skid steer cutters?

BIGBEN2004
01-30-2008, 07:29 PM
Well I don't mean Bush Hog by the brand name I am referring to a rotary cutter. We all call them bush hogs just like some people call a skid steers BOBCAT's. I checked out bobcat rotary cutters and they make a 60" that my machine could handle just fine..... on paper that is but we all know what works on paper doesn't always work in the real world. That is were you all come in with knowledge on this stuff or I can rent and see what works for me.

YellowDogSVC
01-30-2008, 07:48 PM
I think CAT may have something to say about it. Don't they own part of ASV?

YellowDogSVC
01-30-2008, 09:11 PM
Well I don't mean Bush Hog by the brand name I am referring to a rotary cutter. We all call them bush hogs just like some people call a skid steers BOBCAT's. I checked out bobcat rotary cutters and they make a 60" that my machine could handle just fine..... on paper that is but we all know what works on paper doesn't always work in the real world. That is were you all come in with knowledge on this stuff or I can rent and see what works for me.

You are referring to the brushcat. It will run fine at 18 gpm. I ran one on an 863 for years and it was 18 gpm at 3000 psi. I also run it at 16.9 at 3000 psi on a toolcat.

BIGBEN2004
01-30-2008, 09:18 PM
What is a pressurized cab? I know it is probably a stupid question but what makes it different then any other cab? I remember when Cat introduced the C series they bragged on this fact. Does my Takeuchi have a pressurized cab and what is the advantages of have one?

bobcat_ron
01-30-2008, 09:28 PM
There's a certian amount of air pressure inside the cab that keeps the dust from getting into the cab from around the door seal and window liners, Bobcat's are the worst for mowing and grinding in the summer months with the A/C on high.

YellowDogSVC
01-30-2008, 09:35 PM
There's a certian amount of air pressure inside the cab that keeps the dust from getting into the cab from around the door seal and window liners, Bobcat's are the worst for mowing and grinding in the summer months with the A/C on high.

I wouldn't say bobcat is the worse. I have seen some pretty bad B series CATS but Bobcat has lots of room for improvement (like all the gaps between cab and door seal. :)

BIGBEN2004
01-30-2008, 09:40 PM
My door on my Takeuchi seals very tightly so how does it compare?

john_bud
01-30-2008, 11:53 PM
The whole deal from ASV is on the net. I stumbled across it a few days ago,before reading this thread. Forget where, but I saved a copy.


There are no "secrets" in it from what I can see. Well, unless you don't want your weak performance against ASV to be known...

jb

Digdeep
01-31-2008, 10:07 AM
The whole deal from ASV is on the net. I stumbled across it a few days ago,before reading this thread. Forget where, but I saved a copy.


There are no "secrets" in it from what I can see. Well, unless you don't want your weak performance against ASV to be known...

jb

I don't look at ASVs comparison as a slap in the face of the other machines. My understanding is that this was training they gave at their dealer meeting late last year. Many of their dealers sell some of the brands that they compared the RC100 against. I look at it and see that they were trying to point out that it is important for the salesman to be more knowledgeable on the machines instead of just selling what is on the brochure especially since some of ASV competitors specs look very good on paper but don't hold a candle to the RC100 hydraulically (in this case). It looks like they also pointed out that there is some advertising out there by some of the manufacturers that is misleading (Bobcat was mentioned) regarding operating in crushed stone. It appears that they showed that by highlighting a Bridgestone manual of some sort telling people not to operate in stone they als odid this for what appeared to be a Takeuchi manual that said very clearly not to operate in base rock. As I said earlier I commend them for the presentation they put together. It stacks up to any of the training information I ever got from Bobcat when I was a salesman. But definitely not a slap in the face to the others.

YellowDogSVC
01-31-2008, 06:08 PM
I don't look at ASVs comparison as a slap in the face of the other machines. My understanding is that this was training they gave at their dealer meeting late last year. Many of their dealers sell some of the brands that they compared the RC100 against. I look at it and see that they were trying to point out that it is important for the salesman to be more knowledgeable on the machines instead of just selling what is on the brochure especially since some of ASV competitors specs look very good on paper but don't hold a candle to the RC100 hydraulically (in this case). It looks like they also pointed out that there is some advertising out there by some of the manufacturers that is misleading (Bobcat was mentioned) regarding operating in crushed stone. It appears that they showed that by highlighting a Bridgestone manual of some sort telling people not to operate in stone they als odid this for what appeared to be a Takeuchi manual that said very clearly not to operate in base rock. As I said earlier I commend them for the presentation they put together. It stacks up to any of the training information I ever got from Bobcat when I was a salesman. But definitely not a slap in the face to the others.


I think they were calling CAT and others out on stated hydraulic power but I am still skeptical because it wasn't an independent test. If ASV's hydraulic power is achieved because of it's bigger displacement engine creating more torque to power the pump, then why isn't the big gehl/mustang machines mentioned? Weren't those specs somewhere at 100 engine hp plus 41 gpm at 3300 psi? Anyone know? I also wonder if ASV used a C series machine that had been flashed to keep it in high flow while it was moving. There was a computer update because some XPS machines were kicking out of high flow when the loader was moved. Anyone know more about this?

ksss
01-31-2008, 06:32 PM
I think they were calling CAT and others out on stated hydraulic power but I am still skeptical because it wasn't an independent test. If ASV's hydraulic power is achieved because of it's bigger displacement engine creating more torque to power the pump, then why isn't the big gehl/mustang machines mentioned? Weren't those specs somewhere at 100 engine hp plus 41 gpm at 3300 psi? Anyone know? I also wonder if ASV used a C series machine that had been flashed to keep it in high flow while it was moving. There was a computer update because some XPS machines were kicking out of high flow when the loader was moved. Anyone know more about this?

Thats my point on why the CASE machine was not included. I think they picked and chose which machines to compare against.

Digdeep
01-31-2008, 06:46 PM
Thats my point on why the CASE machine was not included. I think they picked and chose which machines to compare against.

I guess none of us know for sure but I don't think they would fudge it because many of their dealers are Case, NH, Gehl/Mustang and JD dealers. It looks like a pretty simple test to duplicate. As I said earlier all a person would need is a good quality flow meter to do this themselves. I find it interesting though that the RC85 was in the comparison though. It has the same flow and pressure as the RC100, but only puts out 222 ft lbs of torque (very close to the CAT 297C at 217 ft lbs) that was tested and it put out around 53 hyd. hp. a little less than the 297C but way less than the RC100. I think this highlights the importance of torque. I would bet that the machines were tested without them moving except for the part where they moved the loader arms.

I have run the Gehl high flow machine and I know that there are two gear pumps used and they combine the flow to get around 39gpm at just under 3000psi. I even remember being told that the operating manual for the Gehl machine recommends against using continuous flow constantly.

As far as the Case machine goes I think it would be similar to the NH they tested since they use the same gear pumps for their auxilary hyd systems although I think the 450CT has more engine torque.

Construct'O
01-31-2008, 07:42 PM
As far as New Holland compared to Case,i think they have the same motor ,but the new Holland doesn't have the turbo,why haven't a clue?

As far as Cat,smaller motor and less torque,could be as of in the type pumps they run.Reasoning they want a more fuel effecient machine,with hopefully more dependability???? Just a thought here ,but from my experiences with my dozer it goes something like this.

The difference in hydraulic pumps, gear ,verses load senseing pumps(piston pump)The piston pumps are basicly a hydrasat.

My old Cat had the gear pump and running around 2400 psi. Gear pumps was cheap for it running around 700 dollars.Pretty durable.The releif usually kicked in and would stall when taking out large trees when using the lift.

The new dozers now use the piston pumps,and are running 5000 to 6000 psi. and the cost is from 4000 to 5000 dollars.So right there is a big dfference.As for performance there like day and night.When you get under a tree stump it well come closer to pulling the dozer rpms down then stalling when lifting.

It's like it pops the tree stump out of the ground as compared to lifting them out of the ground.I call it breakout force as in what they give for a loader,but not so much as in dozers.

So with that i do feel that you can have undersize motor with less torque and still have good hydraulic flow with the difference in the newer style piston pumps of today.

Also i think the rpm and the torque range makes a difference.The more rpm the machine runs will change where the torque will start falling off at and where the loss of hydraulic flow will drop with slowing of the rpms.

Pressure is pretty well constant,at any rpm.Unless the pump is getting weak from age and use.Something i do think a person needs to keep in mind as far as i'm concerned.

I think personally if you had time and could get each machine to do the actual work you plan on using the machine for and attachment and then do you own testing in the real world i think then you can make a real decision what is going to work for you.I'm not a real big believer in stats.Nice tool to get some ideas ,but doesn't always tell you everything.

Not for someone else,because they may need more push power,digging power ,lift power,so it all has to be down to what works for you not the rest of us.

Demo is not that easy because not everyone wants you taking a new machine and demoing it.Easier said then done i know.Good luck ,but demo again demo.Thats the way i see getting a clear deciding factor,not paper facts !!! :usflag:

qzilla
02-03-2008, 04:14 PM
I am getting ready to demo a mulcher attachment as wellon my 272c with OTT steel tracks.

We have been working our machine pretty hard in some tough conditions and I don't really care what the numbers say, we just don't have any complaints. It is IMPOSSIBLE to stall the motor on the 272C. I have a hard time stalling the hydraulics.

The only thing I would like to make better is the time needed between air filter cleanings which is about twice a day. I do understand we are in the harshest of environments though. So I clean it in the morning and at a lunch.

I always find the technical discussions funny. How many CAT guys, especially with the new C series do you see on here complaining about anything? That right there seems to tell me the numbers don't matter and they just flat work.

YellowDogSVC
02-03-2008, 05:13 PM
I am getting ready to demo a mulcher attachment as wellon my 272c with OTT steel tracks.

We have been working our machine pretty hard in some tough conditions and I don't really care what the numbers say, we just don't have any complaints. It is IMPOSSIBLE to stall the motor on the 272C. I have a hard time stalling the hydraulics.

The only thing I would like to make better is the time needed between air filter cleanings which is about twice a day. I do understand we are in the harshest of environments though. So I clean it in the morning and at a lunch.

I always find the technical discussions funny. How many CAT guys, especially with the new C series do you see on here complaining about anything? That right there seems to tell me the numbers don't matter and they just flat work.


I'm real close to making a decision on a 272c with all the bells and whistles. I will use it for grinding and shearing and stacking with some digging. Anything I should know about the machine? Can you tell me more about the filter cleaning?

qps
02-03-2008, 05:17 PM
I am getting ready to demo a mulcher attachment as wellon my 272c with OTT steel tracks.

We have been working our machine pretty hard in some tough conditions and I don't really care what the numbers say, we just don't have any complaints. It is IMPOSSIBLE to stall the motor on the 272C. I have a hard time stalling the hydraulics.

The only thing I would like to make better is the time needed between air filter cleanings which is about twice a day. I do understand we are in the harshest of environments though. So I clean it in the morning and at a lunch.

I always find the technical discussions funny. How many CAT guys, especially with the new C series do you see on here complaining about anything? That right there seems to tell me the numbers don't matter and they just flat work.


I have no issues with my 297C ...a few things I will pick at it though...the switch's and there covers seem alittle generic, and the radio isn't the easiest thing to reach...but if thats the only complaint's I have...then I don't really have any....

qzilla
02-03-2008, 05:34 PM
The only thing I can think of that you might want to know is that Holt has a "land tamer" package if you buy it from them. This consists of a turbo gaurd, exhaust manifold guard and a few other things that make it really safe for doing lots of grinding and cutting type work without having to clean it out every day if you don't want.

They also say there is a Phase 2 landtamer package that adds some stuff to keep more debris out of the engine compartment. We plan on adding Phase 2 when we take it in for the first 250 hour service.

The radio is a little tough to reach I guess but, I just hit Channel 16 or one of the Big 12 stations and leave it.

I have learned that once warmed up I just pin the hand throttle and never worry about anything else until I get ready to get out of it for the day.

I cannot think of anything else I would do?? It has been perfect.

YellowDogSVC
02-03-2008, 05:54 PM
Qzilla, and you grind with it all the time? Does your cab stay clean and is the air ride seat all it's cracked up to be? My demo didn't last long but I liked what I saw.
I think Holt quoted me for the "debris" kit to keep the junk out. The thing is getting pricey at about $ 63k. I want them to guarantee me 78 hydraulic hp before I get one at least that's my thinking right now. Bobcat never answered a single email I sent to hq via thier 'contact us' links. Unless I ask something generic, I don't get responses so I am blowing Bobcat off on a 50k plus investment if that is how they treat someone who has bought 9 Bobcat machines and about 16 pricey attachments!

YellowDogSVC
02-03-2008, 06:18 PM
I have no issues with my 297C ...a few things I will pick at it though...the switch's and there covers seem alittle generic, and the radio isn't the easiest thing to reach...but if thats the only complaint's I have...then I don't really have any....

I liked the switches but again, I only spent a short time in the machine. Radio was hard to get too. I use an XM in the bobcat. It just hold on with suction and I put the antenna magnet on the roof. Works just fine. At $699, I don't know if I want the cat radio.

qzilla
02-03-2008, 06:24 PM
Qzilla, and you grind with it all the time? Does your cab stay clean and is the air ride seat all it's cracked up to be? My demo didn't last long but I liked what I saw.
I think Holt quoted me for the "debris" kit to keep the junk out. The thing is getting pricey at about $ 63k. I want them to guarantee me 78 hydraulic hp before I get one at least that's my thinking right now. Bobcat never answered a single email I sent to hq via thier 'contact us' links. Unless I ask something generic, I don't get responses so I am blowing Bobcat off on a 50k plus investment if that is how they treat someone who has bought 9 Bobcat machines and about 16 pricey attachments!

About 90% of the time the brush cutter is on the front. That soil is a sandy loam and it has been dry. The dust itself is miserable! There is NO dust in my cab whatsoever. The only dust I have ever had was when I opened a side window or the door and there was dust around.

I love the air ride seat, it is comfortable and I ride in it all day with no complaints.

I would like an additional cupholder! I use one for the spit cup , the little holder on the other side for my GPS and then I have t just stick a water bottle somewhere else!

I am not sure about hydraulic horsepower but, none of the machines I cut with was even close.

The ranch it is at now is in Alice if you want to bring your mulcher over and see how it does you are more than welcome to! I am getting Holt to give me a demo mulcher as well for the High Flow and we will see how it does.

Who are you talking to at CAT? I might be able to send you to a guy that will really work with you.

I never got into the horsepower numbers or advertised flow numbers or anything like that. I took my demo, stuck an attachment I was going to buy on it and treated it like I DID NOT own either of them. I wanted to stall it, put it in a bind and run it like it would never be ran if I was driving it and owned it. When it passed that test with flying colors I bought one.

The CAT guy never flinched when I ran wide open into heavy, heavy brush with the mower tilted about 60 deg. Everyone else tried to stop me.

The CAT guys said you can't hurt it and if you do we will fix it and make it better. Everyone else said do't hurt it, this is my demo.

Big difference to me.

Seriously, load your machine up and come down. I have plenty of fuel and you can cut with yours and then cut with mine or something? We can make a day of it. I get more work done, you get to test machines in the real world and I am not that far from you???

qzilla
02-03-2008, 06:26 PM
I would get the CAT radio. IT should be free and it works great. Sure it is a little hard to adjust but, it is also NEVER in the way. I love mine and when its free you can always turn it off!

YellowDogSVC
02-03-2008, 06:30 PM
About 90% of the time the brush cutter is on the front. That soil is a sandy loam and it has been dry. The dust itself is miserable! There is NO dust in my cab whatsoever. The only dust I have ever had was when I opened a side window or the door and there was dust around.

I love the air ride seat, it is comfortable and I ride in it all day with no complaints.

I would like an additional cupholder! I use one for the spit cup , the little holder on the other side for my GPS and then I have t just stick a water bottle somewhere else!

I am not sure about hydraulic horsepower but, none of the machines I cut with was even close.

The ranch it is at now is in Alice if you want to bring your mulcher over and see how it does you are more than welcome to! I am getting Holt to give me a demo mulcher as well for the High Flow and we will see how it does.

Who are you talking to at CAT? I might be able to send you to a guy that will really work with you.

I never got into the horsepower numbers or advertised flow numbers or anything like that. I took my demo, stuck an attachment I was going to buy on it and treated it like I DID NOT own either of them. I wanted to stall it, put it in a bind and run it like it would never be ran if I was driving it and owned it. When it passed that test with flying colors I bought one.

The CAT guy never flinched when I ran wide open into heavy, heavy brush with the mower tilted about 60 deg. Everyone else tried to stop me.

The CAT guys said you can't hurt it and if you do we will fix it and make it better. Everyone else said do't hurt it, this is my demo.

Big difference to me.

Seriously, load your machine up and come down. I have plenty of fuel and you can cut with yours and then cut with mine or something? We can make a day of it. I get more work done, you get to test machines in the real world and I am not that far from you???

I"m working with Harry Harris. He has been great. Brought me a 268b so I could test the XPS but I have to go out of town and won't have time to get the reducers I need to fit the couplers.

I may take you up on your offer but I will be out of town for about 6 days of work. Did you get the Lexan door?

YellowDogSVC
02-03-2008, 06:31 PM
I would get the CAT radio. IT should be free and it works great. Sure it is a little hard to adjust but, it is also NEVER in the way. I love mine and when its free you can always turn it off!

I would want the XM version. XM is great and gives me consistency when working in other areas.

qzilla
02-03-2008, 06:50 PM
I don't have a lexan door. I talked about it and they say the glass ones they are using are tough. So far they have been???

Harry is awesome. Tell him you are going to go test drive my machine. He knows me well!

I will be down there a lot but, it is off and on as I have a real business to run as well!

Between the middle of Feb and the first week or 2 of March I will be down there a LOT!

By that time I bet I get my mulcher demo and you can maybe just try it straight up against your current machine in the exact same setting??
i am pretty sure my machine has every option available to, counter weights, XPS, steel tracks, 2 speed etc.

YellowDogSVC
02-03-2008, 07:56 PM
I can't work in the sand :( No tracks. Skidsteer in sand with no tracks is a bad day waiting to happen!

I'll talk to Harry. He's been a good guy and lives just a few miles from me. He must have a big territory unless you live closer to SA? What is your 'real' business?

CarterKraft
02-03-2008, 09:40 PM
Tell Harry "Turbo" said to take care of you LOL.

Yall are gonna have to have a head to comparison, but make sure Qzilla's real business doesn't interfere with the HP output on the CAT.

YellowDogSVC
02-03-2008, 09:59 PM
I don't have a lexan door. I talked about it and they say the glass ones they are using are tough. So far they have been???

Harry is awesome. Tell him you are going to go test drive my machine. He knows me well!

I will be down there a lot but, it is off and on as I have a real business to run as well!

Between the middle of Feb and the first week or 2 of March I will be down there a LOT!

By that time I bet I get my mulcher demo and you can maybe just try it straight up against your current machine in the exact same setting??
i am pretty sure my machine has every option available to, counter weights, XPS, steel tracks, 2 speed etc.


Maybe I should bring my CAT head down there. It's the HM 312. I think 4' is plenty but you might want a bigger head like the magnum or HM 315?

qzilla
02-04-2008, 01:57 AM
I can't work in the sand :( No tracks. Skidsteer in sand with no tracks is a bad day waiting to happen!

I'll talk to Harry. He's been a good guy and lives just a few miles from me. He must have a big territory unless you live closer to SA? What is your 'real' business?

I live in Fort Worth but, our ranches are all in South Texas. Since I bought a C series pretty early on we went through Harry.

My real business:
http://www.quadzillapower.com/index_main.html

Don't worry about the sand, the place we are working on has hard dirt. Well it is a sandy loam but, you will be fine without tracks.

I have plenty of equipment on hand to remove a stuck skid steer should I need to anyways!!! I am pretty sure the D6R would suck it right out.


Maybe I should bring my CAT head down there. It's the HM 312. I think 4' is plenty but you might want a bigger head like the magnum or HM 315?


They told me they are not selling the HM312 anymore or the 315. I talked to a guy from the Waco store tonight and he says all they are selling now is the Bradco magnum and that I only want the 60" tool for recovery time. He was a pretty sharp guy and I believed most of what he told me unil he started saying the 256C would do the same work as the 272C. I laughed and then I asked him, so what was the point of making the 272 and he really did not have any answers.

So, long story short, I will probably want to demo the Bradco unit if that is what I am thinking of buying.

qzilla
02-04-2008, 02:05 AM
Tell Harry "Turbo" said to take care of you LOL.

Yall are gonna have to have a head to comparison, but make sure Qzilla's real business doesn't interfere with the HP output on the CAT.

I have though about it but, it really does not need it.

When you get a chance stop by the office, I want to talk to you about the guy from Waco. He says he is the end all be all in the Skid Steer world for CAT and they all do whatever he says???? He said some smart souding things and some ******ed sounding things so I am not sure how to take him.

Also, how long do you think it is going to take them to get the pins and bushings for the dozer? They said they had to machine them down so all the wear matches. I need to get it moved back in S. TX so I was curious how long you thought that might take?

CarterKraft
02-04-2008, 11:28 PM
Shouldn't take long, chuck it up and cut it down.

qzilla
02-05-2008, 12:11 AM
I found out today it has to come from Brazil, so we paid to overnight it.

Don, did not exactly relay the info very good so we called in and got it handled!

Holt has the best service there is!

CarterKraft
02-05-2008, 12:45 AM
Trust me I've waited on the jobsite for many hotshots, we will pretty much work as fast as you want.

YellowDogSVC
02-08-2008, 10:55 AM
They told me they are not selling the HM312 anymore or the 315. I talked to a guy from the Waco store tonight and he says all they are selling now is the Bradco magnum .


Interesting. I tried the magnum mulcher. Yes, it seemed more powerful than the 312 but it wasn't Eureka, at least in my short demo. The mulch product wasn't as fine as the 312 either. Why would anyone buy the CAT mulcher when the bradco is a few thousand cheaper? Maybe that's why they aren't selling them.

YellowDogSVC
02-08-2008, 11:00 AM
I live in Fort Worth but, our ranches are all in South Texas. Since I bought a C series pretty early on we went through Harry.

My real business:
http://www.quadzillapower.com/index_main.html

.

So how do I get more power out of my powerstroke '05 6.0 without blowing a head gasket or voiding warranty? I have heard that if we chip that motor and something happens to it, Ford will void warranty and do they have the ability to tell if it was chipped or programmed? I have had issues with that machine. Towing 12,600 pounds up hill with my 11.5k truck I was only able to go 45mph uphill! Pretty sad. My fuel economy is about 8.0 and less mpg on straightaways pulling that load!

BIGBEN2004
02-08-2008, 11:15 AM
So how do I get more power out of my powerstroke '05 6.0 without blowing a head gasket or voiding warranty? I have heard that if we chip that motor and something happens to it, Ford will void warranty and do they have the ability to tell if it was chipped or programmed? I have had issues with that machine. Towing 12,600 pounds up hill with my 11.5k truck I was only able to go 45mph uphill! Pretty sad. My fuel economy is about 8.0 and less mpg on straightaways pulling that load!

If you want to know everthing about your Ford the do's and dont's then head over to:

http://www.dieselstop.com/

They can tell you what to do and what not to do to your 6.0 so you won't blow it up. All I can say is for us that pull hard with our trucks don't add too much power. A little is good but allot is bad.

Hummer
02-08-2008, 11:36 AM
My favorite Ford truck related site is: www.ford-trucks.com

qzilla
02-09-2008, 01:13 PM
Be careful on forums. Just like here it is easy to get everyones expert opinion even when they have no idea what they are talking about. Most of the truck forums stuff is related to extreme hot rodding and drag racing while towing is left out of the picture.

What hurts the head gaskets is the terrible headstuf design on a high compression engine.

The secret to keeping the gaskets safe is to make sure whatever you isntall on the truck does not advance the timing too much. You need some timing advance down low for fuel mileage but, once you hit 18-20psi of boost you do not want to add any timing. More timing will make the cylinder pressures go up and stretch the head botls.

You can buy aftermarket studs and gaskets but, in my opinion it is all in the tuning.

We make a product that is targeted at towing. It makes a lot of power down low but, on the higher rpm and high boost range we back fuel and timing off so it is safe. Afterall what you want is torque.


Doing a quick search on the site listed above I came up with this link:

http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f21/quadzilla-xzt-145639/

The guys talking here are hauling some good sized loads.

AWJ Services
02-10-2008, 11:15 AM
My 7.3 and my trailer are at 13k.My skid is at 10k+ with some attachments.
It would only log about 8 to 9 but after the chip(a very small one) it was up to a solid ten mpg.Empty it picked up a solid 4 mpg.

DPtuner is pretty respected and he can fix you a switch chip that will go between settings on the fly.

Everything Qzilla said is spot on.Maybe install an egt sensor with the chip as well.

Even though I have the chip I still do not try too fight the hills.I do not loose the speed I used too on the hills but I do not go too WOT just to maintain speed.
Mine has been in for about 40K miles.
The 6.0L are a different animal for sure but they still can make safe reliable power.

ksss
02-10-2008, 01:23 PM
If you want to know everthing about your Ford the do's and dont's then head over to:

http://www.dieselstop.com/

They can tell you what to do and what not to do to your 6.0 so you won't blow it up. All I can say is for us that pull hard with our trucks don't add too much power. A little is good but allot is bad.


A lot of truth to that. Most of the latest programmers will monitor the engine and transmission and defuel if needed. Bully Dogs PMT and Edge do this as do others. I am going to put the PMT in my Dually. The PMT monitors all need functions and defuels, it also offers change on the fly power settings. I would like to get better mileage. I have no complaints on power. The 6.0 was not IH or Fords finest hour in engine building. If it were me, I would look to get out of it. If that is not feasible than as mentioned above, I would be selective on how much power you gave it. Some of those motors run fine and others never do run except to the dealer.

BIGBEN2004
02-10-2008, 01:30 PM
A lot of truth to that. Most of the latest programmers will monitor the engine and transmission and defuel if needed. Bully Dogs PMT and Edge do this as do others. I am going to put the PMT in my Dually. The PMT monitors all need functions and defuels, it also offers change on the fly power settings. I would like to get better mileage. I have no complaints on power. The 6.0 was not IH or Fords finest hour in engine building. If it were me, I would look to get out of it. If that is not feasible than as mentioned above, I would be selective on how much power you gave it. Some of those motors run fine and others never do run except to the dealer.
How do you like your GM products? Do you have the Duramax Diesel in them? Do you have any pictures up of your trucks on here?

ksss
02-10-2008, 02:07 PM
How do you like your GM products? Do you have the Duramax Diesel in them? Do you have any pictures up of your trucks on here?

Both are pictured on here, I think they are under the thread "KSSS jobs and equipment" or something like that.

I have no complaints with the Duramax trucks in any area except mpg on the newer ones. I have also had an 01 3500 Xcab and an 03 crew cab. I pulled the guts out of the 01. I went over the scales one day at 34,200 and I still had a couple hundred pounds of capacity left on the front axle. I got 7 mpg pulling across the high desert. Empty I would routinely get 18 mpg with 01. The 06 with the 6 speed tranny gets 14 mpg empty. The MPG has decreased steadily from 01 until now that is bummer. I have never replaced an injector or had any major mechanical issues with them. The resale is real good. Nothing to really complain about.

Fieldman12
02-10-2008, 02:24 PM
I know several guys that have the Duramax and like them. I only have 7,700 on mine so far so cannot say much. I do have a buddy though that has one of the bigger trucks (Kodiak im guessing) that has the Duramax. He said he cannot keep injectors in it and he bought it new last year. This truck does seem to go better off road than the old style 6.5 version. It did not take much to get them stuck in my honest opinion. I think Ford needs to get a different motor all together. They make a great truck and the 7.3 was good but since then it seems like every motor they get is a POS or that is least what everyone is telling me.

ksss
02-10-2008, 06:47 PM
I know several guys that have the Duramax and like them. I only have 7,700 on mine so far so cannot say much. I do have a buddy though that has one of the bigger trucks (Kodiak im guessing) that has the Duramax. He said he cannot keep injectors in it and he bought it new last year. This truck does seem to go better off road than the old style 6.5 version. It did not take much to get them stuck in my honest opinion. I think Ford needs to get a different motor all together. They make a great truck and the 7.3 was good but since then it seems like every motor they get is a POS or that is least what everyone is telling me.



I have not heard much about the 6.4 maybe it is better. The Oh No 6.0 is nothing to be proud of. It is a bad sign when Ford and IH are always in court trying to decide who is going to fund all the warranty claims.

Construct'O
02-10-2008, 07:14 PM
Just go up to the truck and trailer posts on this forum and they have already cussed and discussed this subject to great extent.Good luck

Hummer
02-11-2008, 03:49 PM
Wow, this thread has gotten way off topic I think. How about if we get back on the thread topic which was 'CAT 272C with mulcher'.

I like reading & discussing diesel truck stuff too, but I also like reading threads about brush mulching.

YellowDogSVC
02-11-2008, 04:32 PM
do you brush mow hummer?

Hummer
02-13-2008, 12:55 PM
YDS,

No, not yet. I'm still waiting for some land that I own to sell so I can purchase my equipment with cash. I want to start my business with no debt and cash in the bank for reserve.

I'm still uncertain what machine I want to go with, but I think it's narrowed down to a new ASV PT100, Rayco C100L or a used Rayco/Fecon 140. I'm leaning towards the ASV PT100 due to it's rubber tracks and greater versatility as a skidsteer type machine.

I recently had to pass on doing some power line ROW maintenance subcontract work because I don't have a machine yet.

YellowDogSVC
02-13-2008, 04:46 PM
YDS,

. I'm leaning towards the ASV PT100 due to it's rubber tracks and greater versatility as a skidsteer type machine.
.


I think you hit the nail on the head with being versatile. A number of larger, dedicated mulching machines around here sit idle. I can at least stack and then grind or clear out underbrush with a shear and grind in piles should the job require it. Ease of portability and cleaning up after other people has been a good market niche for me because I have a versatile Bobcat that can grind and carry material without damaging driveways and roads. What ever you do, make sure you get some type of grapple to complement the clearing. Makes loading shreds in rolloff's, dump's or trailers a breeze.

Hummer
02-14-2008, 01:40 PM
Yep, if I end up going the PT100 route I was already planning on getting a grapple made by Solesbees and a combination bucket too at a minimum.

YellowDogSVC
02-14-2008, 05:57 PM
Combo buckets are good. I also like Tilt-tatch between loader and bucket. I prefer grapple with no "teeth" on the tines so that the brush drops easier. I just recently got a combo bucket for my toolcat. Now I can't do without!

hansondirtman
02-17-2008, 06:13 PM
Just saw this on another site, I have an 06 SR-80, but dang, mine doesn't look this looks nice.

http://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=5540

bobcatexc
02-22-2008, 03:08 PM
Here's your big bad CAT 272C in action grinding, also for sale!!


http://cgi.ebay.com/2007-Caterpillar-272-C-skid-steer-loader-needs-work_W0QQitemZ330213583419QQihZ014QQcategoryZ95494QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Hope this link works

bobcat_ron
02-22-2008, 04:52 PM
Here's your big bad CAT 272C in action grinding, also for sale!!


http://cgi.ebay.com/2007-Caterpillar-272-C-skid-steer-loader-needs-work_W0QQitemZ330213583419QQihZ014QQcategoryZ95494QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Hope this link works


Oh dear Lord!!! There's like only 10% of that machine that is salvageable, Brush head, Quick Attach and the front tires, that's why you need screens and guarding for brush wacking!

BIGBEN2004
02-22-2008, 05:14 PM
Wow what a shame that thing was a new C model too, well that sucks. I guess the new ones catch fire from brush cutting also.

cat2
02-22-2008, 07:05 PM
Well at least it was only a cat. no big lost.:laugh::laugh:







thats a shame though

YellowDogSVC
03-16-2008, 01:57 PM
I was impressed with the HOLT brush mowing modifications though some of the vinyls stuff needs to be reworked with metal. The grill in the rear door (is) much heavier than I thought from the pictures and seems to pull in cleaner air. After a few hours of mowing, the engine compartment was relatively clean. I can't say the same for the cab at this time but think that is fixable.

Does anyone have any feedback on the C series and ground clearance? Seems like the machines sit quite low to the ground at 8.8 clearance all the way around. Is it just me or is that low?

hansondirtman
03-16-2008, 04:01 PM
I could never go back to low ground clearance, you get so spoiled not worrying about that aspect with an ASV. Correct me but I think that is lower than the B-Series, what's up with that?

bobcat_ron
03-16-2008, 04:53 PM
Deere has the worst, somewhere around 6 inches.

DUSTYCEDAR
03-16-2008, 04:54 PM
only 6 that stinks

ksss
03-16-2008, 05:04 PM
Most all are around 9 inches this spec was for the B series CAT not the C. The NH seemed to have the lowest at 8. BC was second lowest with 8.5, granted the keel design probably helps it get by with a little lower clearance. This was for the BC 220, CASE, 440, CAT 246B, and NH L180 and Deere 325.

YellowDogSVC
03-16-2008, 05:16 PM
Most all are around 9 inches this spec was for the B series CAT not the C. The NH seemed to have the lowest at 8. BC was second lowest with 8.5, granted the keel design probably helps it get by with a little lower clearance. This was for the BC 220, CASE, 440, CAT 246B, and NH L180 and Deere 325.

the c series CAT is rated at 8.8 ground clearance. Looks low compared to my BC s300

bobcat_ron
03-16-2008, 05:23 PM
My Cat is 2 inches lower than my T190 was, but 2 inches taller at the cab.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t178/rdj07/Pictures131.jpg

YellowDogSVC
03-16-2008, 05:39 PM
My Cat is 2 inches lower than my T190 was, but 2 inches taller at the cab.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t178/rdj07/Pictures131.jpg

you gonna keep that cat clean?:p

bobcat_ron
03-16-2008, 07:34 PM
Hey, it's got some scratches and mud on it now! http://www.p1x44r.com/smiles/finger.gif

BIGBEN2004
03-16-2008, 07:38 PM
Yea but Ron the bucket always gets scratches and mud on it.:rolleyes:

cat2
03-16-2008, 07:43 PM
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

bobcat_ron
03-16-2008, 07:52 PM
Yea but Ron the bucket always gets scratches and mud on it.:rolleyes:

Well that's just how good operators run a quality machine, only the bucket gets scratches and mud on it! BOO-YAH! http://www.p1x44r.com/smiles/neener.gif

BIGBEN2004
03-16-2008, 07:55 PM
True, but if you had a real machine you wouldn't be afraid to tackle the real tough and extreme jobs that require a couple of scratches to be put on the machine.:cool2:

YellowDogSVC
03-16-2008, 07:58 PM
I don't know about everyone else but I baby my machines even though I get rid of them in the 1200 hr range. I'm just a granny in the operator's seat.

bobcat_ron
03-16-2008, 07:58 PM
True, but if you had a real machine you wouldn't be afraid to tackle the real tough and extreme jobs that require a couple of scratches to be put on the machine.:cool2:


We never use any type of skid steer for those applications, just grab a 320C and git-er-dun.

ksss
03-16-2008, 08:08 PM
We never use any type of skid steer for those applications, just grab a 320C and git-er-dun.

I do. Sometimes a big excavator wont fit. Big Sky comes to mind. 25' of fall in the footprint of the house, no room, 2500 square feet to dig, 9000 feet alt. depth 15' at deepest. Sometimes you need a small machine that can get it done.

BIGBEN2004
03-16-2008, 08:14 PM
I do. Sometimes a big excavator wont fit. Big Sky comes to mind. 25' of fall in the footprint of the house, no room, 2500 square feet to dig, 9000 feet alt. depth 15' at deepest. Sometimes you need a small machine that can get it done.

Yea I guess Cat can make the big stuff do hard work but when it comes time for the small stuff to roll up it's sleeves and do a little work the Cat boys want to go get big brother. I guess only the other brands make the small stuff heavy duty enough to Git R Done.:weightlifter::laugh::cool2:

ksss
03-16-2008, 08:28 PM
Yea I guess Cat can make the big stuff do hard work but when it comes time for the small stuff to roll up it's sleeves and do a little work the Cat boys want to go get big brother. I guess only the other brands make the small stuff heavy duty enough to Git R Done.:weightlifter::laugh::cool2:


It seems that the CAT skid steers regulate their machines more than the others. CASE (and others) allows the operator the latitude to work the machine. If your used to that type of machine, jumping in the CAT is like riding a bicycle with training wheels on it. With time the operator in a CAT can learn to work the machine around or with the antistall/antiwork mode. It is hard to develop that in a 5 hour demo. The CAT certainly would have a quicker training curve for newer operators. They have the specs to do a lot of work if they would take training wheels off.

YellowDogSVC
03-16-2008, 09:53 PM
It seems that the CAT skid steers regulate their machines more than the others. CASE (and others) allows the operator the latitude to work the machine. If your used to that type of machine, jumping in the CAT is like riding a bicycle with training wheels on it. With time the operator in a CAT can learn to work the machine around or with the antistall/antiwork mode. It is hard to develop that in a 5 hour demo. The CAT certainly would have a quicker training curve for newer operators. They have the specs to do a lot of work if they would take training wheels off.

I wonder if CarterKraft can comment on this. I am curious if an operator can request that the power be unleashed through software manipulation. Anyone know of "chips" for skid steers? :laugh:

Digdeep
03-16-2008, 10:43 PM
I wonder if CarterKraft can comment on this. I am curious if an operator can request that the power be unleashed through software manipulation. Anyone know of "chips" for skid steers? :laugh:

My RC50 has anti-stall and it can be disabled by loosening a jam nut on the pump and turning an allen head all the way in. This will disable it completely and I can stall the engine now. I have adjusted mine so I can work the machine to its fullest potential without the hydraulic pump telling me when I have to stop.

YellowDogSVC
03-16-2008, 10:51 PM
My RC50 has anti-stall and it can be disabled by loosening a jam nut on the pump and turning an allen head all the way in. This will disable it completely and I can stall the engine now. I have adjusted mine so I can work the machine to its fullest potential without the hydraulic pump telling me when I have to stop.

Hmmmm.. wonder if CAT has something similar

Digdeep
03-16-2008, 10:54 PM
Hmmmm.. wonder if CAT has something similar

I would bet that their pump would. I do know that ASV and CAT were using the same Rexroth pumps in their machines at least up to the B series. I'm not sure about the C series.

CarterKraft
03-16-2008, 11:07 PM
I am not sure what jam nut you are turning but man tightening all the way cannot be a good thing.

I also really don't understand why antistall is a problem, I always thought it was the coolest thing ever. No killed engine, no belt squealing, no loss of production.

I suppose you could disable the anti stall just not sure how to do it safely, or in warranty. Let me tell you red flags all over the place if I find a relief valve bottomed out.

Why, what exactly is the problem with the antistall in a real world situation? Maybe I could better understand this with a example.

Construct'O
03-16-2008, 11:09 PM
If you could do Digdeep fix for the anti stall on the C series?????

You wouldn't be able to do it because you would void the warranty on your machine.Then if you get the 3 year/3000 warranty and you plan on trading with 1200 hours then your never be able to change the ant-stall problem.

Unless you do a undercover job of fixing it:):usflag:

CarterKraft
03-16-2008, 11:28 PM
"fingers in ears"

YellowDogSVC
03-16-2008, 11:47 PM
I don't know. I have anti stall on Bobcats, I think. Not been a problem but most of like to have all the reserve power we might need.

Digdeep
03-16-2008, 11:48 PM
I am not sure what jam nut you are turning but man tightening all the way cannot be a good thing.

I also really don't understand why antistall is a problem, I always thought it was the coolest thing ever. No killed engine, no belt squealing, no loss of production.

I suppose you could disable the anti stall just not sure how to do it safely, or in warranty. Let me tell you red flags all over the place if I find a relief valve bottomed out.

Why, what exactly is the problem with the antistall in a real world situation? Maybe I could better understand this with a example.

There is a plastic cap on the top of the pump toward the engine that can be popped off to adjust the anti-stall. My machine is well outside of warranty and I didn't turn it all of the way off but only had it adjusted so that I could listen to my engine RPMs as an indicator of how hard I am working the machine. I do like the anti-stall but I have operated both ASVs and CAT machines that seemed that the anti-stall was set too "soft" at the factory and the machines wanted to destroke the pump well before the engine RPMs dropped far enough to really work the machine. I like mine set so that I have about 400-400RPM left before the engine really lugs down to the point of stalling. My RC50s max RPM is 2800RPM. I wouldn't want anyone to void their warranty but a CAT mechanic has got to be able to get some range from the factory that is acceptable on the anti stall such as turned all the way in or out and then back 3 turns, etc. I'm just guessing here and like I said I don't want anyone to void any warranty only get maximum performance out of their machines.

CarterKraft
03-17-2008, 12:14 AM
here is some pictures of a pump that might be in your Rc-50, I really don't know whats in your machine. point to the valve you would turn, if you turned one. wink, wink.

Construct'O
03-17-2008, 12:23 AM
Every machine i have run that was a little soft from the factory like you said,was almost impossible to get the mechanic or company to touch as far as performence issues went.

I agree about getting the max out of your machine,but when it comes to that and warranty that is where it ends as long as it has warranty,it's hands off.

I'm with you on factory setting ,needing treaked a little sometimes.Like i have posted before you can take the two same excat machine and one will usually outperform the other one in one way or another.

We are all human,so whos to say the day the guy setting up the machine wasn't having a good day too say,or a good day.Makes a mistake by just a few more turn here and there.

Sometime buying used makes life simpler,then again maybe not:rolleyes: ????????:usflag:

CarterKraft
03-17-2008, 12:29 AM
I wouldn't want anyone to void their warranty but a CAT mechanic has got to be able to get some range from the factory that is acceptable on the anti stall such as turned all the way in or out and then back 3 turns, etc. I'm just guessing here and like I said I don't want anyone to void any warranty only get maximum performance out of their machines.

I suspect you are adjusting the speed sensing pressure relief valve. In effect this will raise the pressure that is available to the pilot control and subsequently the piston pump actuators.

Two things here, it will at a lower engine RPM.
Is that a good thing? higher torque loads on stalled track lugs, slipping tires, etc.

Will it do long term damage to the machine who knows?
This is definantly a pay to play tipe of situation, as I recall the pressure for that valve is +/- 25 psi.

Digdeep
03-18-2008, 06:50 PM
here is some pictures of a pump that might be in your Rc-50, I really don't know whats in your machine. point to the valve you would turn, if you turned one. wink, wink.

It's the one between the two servo pistons on the top illustration. It will have a plastic cap over it.

CarterKraft
03-20-2008, 09:22 AM
Yeh that's what I was thinking. We do some adjusting of the speedsensing pressure when we do case controls but not really for the effect you are talking about, more the opposite actually.

Who ever reads this needs to understand, if you mess with Hydrostatic pump settings you really need to be aware of the consequences.

Do you put a guage on it to adjsut it or just crank it?

Digdeep
03-20-2008, 10:35 AM
Yeh that's what I was thinking. We do some adjusting of the speedsensing pressure when we do case controls but not really for the effect you are talking about, more the opposite actually.

Who ever reads this needs to understand, if you mess with Hydrostatic pump settings you really need to be aware of the consequences.

Do you put a guage on it to adjsut it or just crank it?

My dealer did it for me. The "anit-stall" function still works but it was kicking in too quickly when I was working the machine. I wouldn't advise anyone with a machine still in warranty to monkey with it unless they just want to have their dealer check to make sure it is set right.

CarterKraft
03-20-2008, 02:17 PM
Good suggestion, yours may have just been out of adjustment. Never hurts to be sure though huh.

DirtyWorks
03-29-2008, 08:03 AM
I am also the proud new owner of a Cat 272C :cool2: loaded out with loegering trax (over the tire, not VTS). Nice machine but does need some minor improvements to make it woods ready. The two main problems I have now is 1. The side cab plastic screens. Does anyone know if Holt has a better solution yet? I have a few ideas but if someyhing better is available then I would give it a try. The screen only lasted a day or two and velcro window screen is not a solution. IMHO plastic and leather have no place in the woods. 2. The air filter sucks way too much dust. Does someone have any ideas on a precleaner kinda like the ASV and other machines have. I never realized how much they help till both were run side by side this past week. The Cat sucks up the engine air better that my wifes Dyson.
Guys I know there are some creative minds here. I read and study almost every post (here and TBN) I really need some help.

YellowDogSVC
03-29-2008, 10:11 AM
The screen only lasted a day or two and velcro window screen is not a solution. IMHO plastic and leather have no place in the woods. 2. The air filter sucks way too much dust. Does someone have any ideas on a precleaner kinda like the ASV and other machines have. I never realized how much they help till both were run side by side this past week. The Cat sucks up the engine air better that my wifes Dyson.
Guys I know there are some creative minds here. I read and study almost every post (here and TBN) I really need some help.

I'm with you on the screen being a temporary fix. It won't last and the velcro on mine is loose after 12 hours. It's cheesy. The air filter sucks way too much dust! My bobcat air cleaner had fins around it and I may see if one fits in the CAT. The filter was virtually the same but worked liked a precleaner swirling the air because of the way the fins were aligned inside the tube. Do you have the door screen on the back? I understand that Holt is working on metal screens for the sides. If they aren't ready soon, I may have some and just use self tapping screws to hold them in place unless they build a little bracket system. It's a bad design by CAT all the way around having so much open space and then selling these machines stock to run a CAT forestry mulcher is a disaster waiting to happen.

ksss
03-29-2008, 11:58 AM
I have an arrangement on my 440 that has reduced my filter buying to one a year. Prior to that I could go 3 hours in extreme conditions and had to pound out the air filter. The system uses the exhuast gas to keep the filter clean. It pulls the dirt out and pushes it out the exhaust. It works fantastic maybe CAT has something similiar?

CarterKraft
03-29-2008, 01:18 PM
Two things on the filter, if you don't have the snorkel on the aircleaner get one, that will help a little.

I would use the http://www.enginaire.com/integrated.htm air cleaner with integrated turbine pre-cleaner.

CarterKraft
03-29-2008, 01:32 PM
http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=98946&stc=1&d=1202182631

YellowDogSVC
03-29-2008, 02:04 PM
I have an arrangement on my 440 that has reduced my filter buying to one a year. Prior to that I could go 3 hours in extreme conditions and had to pound out the air filter. The system uses the exhuast gas to keep the filter clean. It pulls the dirt out and pushes it out the exhaust. It works fantastic maybe CAT has something similiar?

that sounds interesting. My filter, after 12 hours and only a few of those were grinding was a mess on my new 272c

AWJ Services
03-29-2008, 02:06 PM
My filter, after 12 hours and only a few of those were grinding was a mess on my new 272c

So i guess you bought it?

YellowDogSVC
03-29-2008, 02:51 PM
Yeah, I just got it Thursday. Had demoed it week before and they had a few things to fix up. I'm installing extinguishers this weekend and going over the machine to be comfortable to start grinding on Monday.

ksss
03-29-2008, 05:05 PM
that sounds interesting. My filter, after 12 hours and only a few of those were grinding was a mess on my new 272c

Its called an aspirator. It also works with a special muffler that prevents spark (purpose is so the dirt does not get hot and cause fire). It works so well that I can work in Yellowstone park and met their stringent spark arrestor rules.

YellowDogSVC
03-29-2008, 06:46 PM
Its called an aspirator. It also works with a special muffler that prevents spark (purpose is so the dirt does not get hot and cause fire). It works so well that I can work in Yellowstone park and met their stringent spark arrestor rules.

I WANT ONE! My cat air cleaner looks cheap

Scag48
03-29-2008, 06:50 PM
I'm still disappointed by the fact that the C series didn't bring any improvements to the air cleaners :angry: The air cleaner is the weakest link in the machine, by far. I was cleaning out the primary filter in our 277B every hour working in dusty conditions, what a joy. However, if we still had that machine, it would be upfitted with a cyclone like the one that Danish fellow posted pictures of. What a great idea, you should see if you can do the same thing with your 272.

YellowDogSVC
03-29-2008, 06:55 PM
I'm still disappointed by the fact that the C series didn't bring any improvements to the air cleaners :angry: The air cleaner is the weakest link in the machine, by far. I was cleaning out the primary filter in our 277B every hour working in dusty conditions, what a joy. However, if we still had that machine, it would be upfitted with a cyclone like the one that Danish fellow posted pictures of. What a great idea, you should see if you can do the same thing with your 272.

i liked the danes' setup. I have never liked the idea of pulling in engine air and burping it back into the compartment. Seems like an endless cycle of clogging filters. I don't have that problem with the Bobcat, though. It pulls in air above the engine and burps it out below where it falls out the door gaps. Maybe there is enough air moving through the CAT engine compartment. Not sure. Bobcat sure did move a lot of air. I prefer a metal canister, too, versus plastic. I mean, they test these things extensively in dirt, right?

Well, I'll find a lot out on Monday. It's dry as a bone here and I will be grinding trees with a lot of high grass around them. I am not keeping too much hope out but maybe I will be surprised at the maintenance interval. Did install (3) fire extinguishers. 2 small ones in the cab and a bigger one in the engine compartment (that was fun). Now if I can just cover up some of that dang glass so I don't feel like I am laying beachside in the sun. Oh, and I activated my XM..woohoo.

Scag48
03-29-2008, 07:01 PM
Tint the glass. If not the side windows, at least do the frong door. That will help keep it cooler in the cab and help cut down on glare and incoming retina burning rays. I'd go with 25-35% tint, personally.

DirtyWorks
03-29-2008, 08:16 PM
carter thanks for the link. What snorkle? does it work with engineaire? what is my first step? call and get the VLR? Which one will fit and work well? What cat part #'s do I need?
When will the new side screens be available from Holt?
I do not yet have the modified rear door. I wish it were stronger, like the rear of the ASV forestry pkg. I have not had a stick get through there yet. Will the door not cause more dirt and grass to be sucked in?
I am waiting for my salesman to get the computer flash for the XPS and hopefully the newly bored out manifold and A series fittings. How do i change/remove the valve (restrictor)is this done only at my dealer?
Thanks for answering, Any and all help is appreciated as I want this machine to performe better than my T-300 and the Asv 100 combined and still be reliable.
As for as traction and ability to go through anything the 272C with Logering OTT and the Amics is a hard combination to beat. Its amazing to watch the thing go and still be able to save almost $12 per hour maintenance, cut cleaning down by a whole day, and increase production while only losing a little of the stability.

DirtyWorks
03-29-2008, 08:25 PM
I haven't tinted the glass yet but it will be soon. The A/C is great. I did notice a few holes where dust still comes in. Is the pressurized cab dependent on the HVAC fan being all the way up high? Maby that was my mistake. I have been running it on low instead of finding a comfortable temp on high.

Yellow... Do you have any mods yet? counterweights? I thought instead of counterweights (which I do not have yet) I would fab some kind of HEAVY holder box to store recovery chains, etc. there is no room to put chain on machine and no way I'm putting a dirty/muddy chain in my clean new $50K dustproof cab!

Fieldman12
03-29-2008, 08:38 PM
YellowDog, Congratulations on your new Cat purchase. I hope it works out well for ya. Keep us posted with pics. :)

YellowDogSVC
03-29-2008, 09:18 PM
Tint the glass. If not the side windows, at least do the frong door. That will help keep it cooler in the cab and help cut down on glare and incoming retina burning rays. I'd go with 25-35% tint, personally.

will tint work on lexan?

YellowDogSVC
03-29-2008, 09:20 PM
I haven't tinted the glass yet but it will be soon. The A/C is great. I did notice a few holes where dust still comes in. Is the pressurized cab dependent on the HVAC fan being all the way up high? Maby that was my mistake. I have been running it on low instead of finding a comfortable temp on high.

Yellow... Do you have any mods yet? counterweights? I thought instead of counterweights (which I do not have yet) I would fab some kind of HEAVY holder box to store recovery chains, etc. there is no room to put chain on machine and no way I'm putting a dirty/muddy chain in my clean new $50K dustproof cab!

No counterweights for me. I try for light as I can get away with. No mods unless you count my rigging two extinguishers in the cab and a one on the back door by Holt brush screen. I don't need recovery chain here. It won't rain!

There were two holes at bottom of side glass towards from of the cab where you could pass a nail into cab. Dust came in there and at bottom of door and top of door on my machine.

YellowDogSVC
03-29-2008, 09:22 PM
carter thanks for the link. What snorkle? does it work with engineaire? what is my first step? call and get the VLR? Which one will fit and work well? What cat part #'s do I need?
When will the new side screens be available from Holt?
I do not yet have the modified rear door. I wish it were stronger, like the rear of the ASV forestry pkg. I have not had a stick get through there yet. Will the door not cause more dirt and grass to be sucked in?
I am waiting for my salesman to get the computer flash for the XPS and hopefully the newly bored out manifold and A series fittings. How do i change/remove the valve (restrictor)is this done only at my dealer?
Thanks for answering, Any and all help is appreciated as I want this machine to performe better than my T-300 and the Asv 100 combined and still be reliable.
As for as traction and ability to go through anything the 272C with Logering OTT and the Amics is a hard combination to beat. Its amazing to watch the thing go and still be able to save almost $12 per hour maintenance, cut cleaning down by a whole day, and increase production while only losing a little of the stability.

no doubt it will perform better than your t300. It beats my s300K in all areas of hydro performance so far. I'll know more after Monday. I have the bored out block and use the big couplers. I had the flash to keep it from kicking out of high flow.

Scag48
03-30-2008, 02:39 AM
will tint work on lexan?

Hmmm, you know I'm not sure, I would suppose that it should. I can find out, I have a buddy of mine who has done a lot of tinting. Maybe post up a thread on HEF, there's quite a few guys who have tinted many a machine, maybe one of them has some input for Lexan.

DirtyWorks
03-30-2008, 11:04 AM
There were two holes at bottom of side glass towards from of the cab where you could pass a nail into cab. Dust came in there and at bottom of door and top of door on my machine.

I have the same holes :confused: I just put silicone in them! wonder why they were left? the door is adjustable and helped alot. I will get the holt upgrades soon.

CarterKraft
03-30-2008, 11:48 AM
the snorkel is in the picture I attached, if yours has it then don't worry about it, If not get one, factory equipment on a 256C.

The VLR is a custom product. There is only one filter I think that will work and some fabrication is required to mount it.

AWJ Services
03-30-2008, 11:50 AM
I was alittle skeptical about the Cab of any Skid steer being sealed up completley.
I think you are just too close too the dirt and debris.

I hope the Cat works well and it looks like it may be the new choice for running Forrestry heads.

YellowDogSVC
03-30-2008, 01:10 PM
I have the same holes :confused: I just put silicone in them! wonder why they were left? the door is adjustable and helped alot. I will get the holt upgrades soon.

After I plugged mine with silicone I wondered if they were there to push out dust if the cab is indeed pressurized.

YellowDogSVC
03-30-2008, 01:13 PM
the snorkel is in the picture I attached, if yours has it then don't worry about it, If not get one, factory equipment on a 256C.

The VLR is a custom product. There is only one filter I think that will work and some fabrication is required to mount it.

I don't think I have a snorkel. I just have a "hole" at the bottom of air cleaner and it looks like it sucks air from the bottom of the cleaner.

DirtyWorks
03-30-2008, 06:06 PM
I don't think I have a snorkel. I just have a "hole" at the bottom of air cleaner and it looks like it sucks air from the bottom of the cleaner.

I don't have the snokel either and yes it "SUCKS" The filter needed cleaning every 1.5 hrs and replaced way too often. Any idea of cost of the VLR? thanks

ksss
03-30-2008, 06:18 PM
That is a serious problem if your trying to be productive, needless to say expensive.

CarterKraft
03-30-2008, 06:46 PM
The VLR is a little over 100$.

The snorkel and fastners is under $50.
parts needed for the snorkel are:
part # qty desc
131-6143 1 CLAMP-HOSE


280-8286 1 COVER


280-8293 1 DUCT


9R-9901 4 FASTENER (CLIP)

YellowDogSVC
03-30-2008, 06:48 PM
The VLR is a little over 100$.

The snorkel and fastners is under $50.
parts needed for the snorkel are:
part # qty desc
131-6143 1 CLAMP-HOSE


280-8286 1 COVER


280-8293 1 DUCT


9R-9901 4 FASTENER (CLIP)

On a 272c where does the snorkel plug into to draw air?

CarterKraft
03-30-2008, 07:02 PM
Did you see the picture?

The bottom of the aircleaner assy to the RH tower.

ATTENTION:

After reading some confidential testing info from CAT, the VLR is not recomended and it's use may cause dusting of the engine, sorry for any misinformation previously provided.

It seems the best plan is to seal the RH tower, and run the snorkel.

I think there will be a end all answer soon, wink wink.

CarterKraft
03-30-2008, 07:05 PM
I think some door issues will be addressed as well.

It is important that any complaints you have with your machine are relayed to the dealer so that the problems can be addressed by CAT.

That is one of the best things about CAT if there is a problem they will change it.

YellowDogSVC
03-30-2008, 07:35 PM
Carter,
You have been a big help on technical issues and it's good that a real cat mechanic chimes in. I have been working with Harry and he's always on top of things. The door issue and the air filter definitely need to be addressed. They know why I switched from Bobcat so I hope that they can fix the model I am in now. I would hate for another series to come out with problems addressed when I was specifically given specs on a sealed and pressurized cab. I think that the problem with the doors sealing is the lexan not being as rigid as glass. It simply doesn't seal good at the bottom or the top. Maybe if the latch mechanism pulled it in tighter or it had a 2nd piston to hold the door. Not sure yet as I only have 13 hours in it and some of those I was concentrating on learning the machine. I just hope and that this 272c represents the best of technology and ease of service as I have a lot of jobs lined up and all my eggs in one basket so to speak.

ksss
03-30-2008, 07:46 PM
Carter,
You have been a big help on technical issues and it's good that a real cat mechanic chimes in. I have been working with Harry and he's always on top of things. The door issue and the air filter definitely need to be addressed. They know why I switched from Bobcat so I hope that they can fix the model I am in now. I would hate for another series to come out with problems addressed when I was specifically given specs on a sealed and pressurized cab. I think that the problem with the doors sealing is the lexan not being as rigid as glass. It simply doesn't seal good at the bottom or the top. Maybe if the latch mechanism pulled it in tighter or it had a 2nd piston to hold the door. Not sure yet as I only have 13 hours in it and some of those I was concentrating on learning the machine. I just hope and that this 272c represents the best of technology and ease of service as I have a lot of jobs lined up and all my eggs in one basket so to speak.


If they can not solve the filter problem I can photo mine and perhaps they can copy it. CASE uses Donaldson as does Cat I believe. It might be simpler than it would appear.

YellowDogSVC
03-30-2008, 08:26 PM
If they can not solve the filter problem I can photo mine and perhaps they can copy it. CASE uses Donaldson as does Cat I believe. It might be simpler than it would appear.

I have an air filter on my Vermeer chipper (200 hp) that only needs to be changed every 300-400 hours in bad conditions and sometimes more. It has a pre cleaner on it . Might be Donaldson. It is still clean when I change it and inner filter always looks good and chipping is about as dusty as it gets.

DirtyWorks
03-31-2008, 12:14 AM
Did you see the picture?

The bottom of the aircleaner assy to the RH tower.

ATTENTION:

After reading some confidential testing info from CAT, the VLR is not recomended and it's use may cause dusting of the engine, sorry for any misinformation previously provided.

It seems the best plan is to seal the RH tower, and run the snorkel.

I think there will be a end all answer soon, wink wink.

Carter I too thank you for all the tech help and prompt replies to our concerns. The "end all" solution...will i still need the snorkel or hold out a little longer for the next step? Will the VLR void the engine warranty? Stupid question.. how will getting air from the tower be less dusty? and how do we "seal" it?

How long till the metal screens for the side? By getting the modified rear door (one with holes) will there be less suction on the side screens? I seem to get a lot of grass/leaves sucked to the plastic screen. Can the door be built with heavier perforated steel? I tend to be a little rough sometimes and don't want a tree in my motor. thx!

DirtyWorks
03-31-2008, 12:19 AM
Another idea for protection. Does anyone know of a good fabricator for the protection of the rear lights on the C series? putting them on the back door is nice but not practicle on a woods machine. maby a bolt on heavy screen kinda like bug eyes. There is a hole between the light and the work light for mounting. Just needs to be presses into a rounded cupped shape with a stud in the middle. painted yellow or black of course. thx

YellowDogSVC
03-31-2008, 12:39 AM
Another idea for protection. Does anyone know of a good fabricator for the protection of the rear lights on the C series? putting them on the back door is nice but not practicle on a woods machine. maby a bolt on heavy screen kinda like bug eyes. There is a hole between the light and the work light for mounting. Just needs to be presses into a rounded cupped shape with a stud in the middle. painted yellow or black of course. thx

bobcat built some screens for my machines to be in the woods. The rear light screens don't do too much but help on the smaller branches. The front light protectors wouldn't stop a good "poke" from a hard branch. It may be cheaper to fabricate your own rear light guard. I am going to look into that versus just being careful and replacing broken lights as needed. The rear perforated screen isn't the strongest but it is pretty good for what it does. I would like to see something similar for the sides even if it's held on with self tapping screws that I would have to take if I wanted to raise cab.

Have you raised your cab yet? I plan on doing it soon to see what labor is involved and see if I need to seal anything underneath. My bobcats get plenty of debris inside "fluff" I call it along with grass and such and I don't have hardly any openings. There are foam baffles for sound inside the bobcat by the axles. Does CAT have something similar inside? Woud let debris accumulate in one place instead of being sucked into the rear if air moves through the whole thing.
I can also suggest for any machine brush mowing.. Keep a good portable compressor and long handled blow gun nearby. On the 272c, I see that the air to air aftercooler needs to be cleaned out occasionally according to the manual. That's a lot of things to keep clean on these machines. Hope the maintenance isn't as bad as it looks!

DirtyWorks
03-31-2008, 12:55 AM
the screen on the aftercooler is bigger than it looks from the side. Had the cab up Sat. A lot easier than the old cats. the debris seems to acumulate in the "wells" down below and not too bad to clean. There is a foam mat that the cab sits on. Wouldnt hurt to be thicker. When i sit in my cab i can see light under the front door in two spots. I think its this mat. The complete cab lifts up and the AC evaporator is easy to clean. Imay try to seal the two holes where the floorboard sits. The cab is sealed overall its just as the side air filter gets clogged, dirt tends to find other less restrictive ways to enter.
As for the rear lights let us know what you do. For the side guards theright one needs to be accessed often to keep cabin air filter serviced. maby some duetz fasteners (sp) to keep it simple and not loose hardware in the field. I've been working on some ideas but keep shaing and we will fix it!

CarterKraft
03-31-2008, 01:22 PM
Carter I too thank you for all the tech help and prompt replies to our concerns. The "end all" solution...will i still need the snorkel or hold out a little longer for the next step? Will the VLR void the engine warranty? Stupid question.. how will getting air from the tower be less dusty? and how do we "seal" it?

How long till the metal screens for the side? By getting the modified rear door (one with holes) will there be less suction on the side screens? I seem to get a lot of grass/leaves sucked to the plastic screen. Can the door be built with heavier perforated steel? I tend to be a little rough sometimes and don't want a tree in my motor. thx!

If the end all is done, you might not need the snorkel but I wouldn't wait.

The VLR will not void the engine warranty, but if your engine is damaged due to the VLR then engine damage will not be covered. If CAT tested it and didn't like the results, I wouldn't do it.

If you run the snorkel and seal the tower to engine compartment the best you can, and the bottom of the tower it will pull engine air from the top of the tower, higher up and out of the pack air for the engine cooling fan.
This air is allot cleaner than engine compartment air.

The rear door could be done with 1/2 perforated plate or whatever you choose.

YellowDogSVC
03-31-2008, 11:33 PM
On a 272c, if the snorkel pulls brush mowing "fluff" into the tower, how hard would it be to clean it out? My salesman said that was an issue with the snorkel into the tower. any thoughts?

DirtyWorks
03-31-2008, 11:37 PM
Ordered the snorkel kit today! I will pick it up when i get my 257 from the shop in a few days. I will let yall know how it does. Oh it was under $50. Keep us posted on the screens and the air filter fix and I will hold off on the VLR. My Cat parts guy said they saw a prototype fix/ precleaner but did not think it was available yet!

CarterKraft
04-01-2008, 06:17 PM
YellowDog, I don't think it would be hard to clean at all with the aftercooler blow gun. maybe if you were to succesfully seal the bottom air tight, then you would have a situation were you might have a hard time blowing it out, but I can't really see it.

dirtyWorks, cool... hope the snorkel helps you out a bit.

YellowDogSVC
04-01-2008, 06:27 PM
Quick question. Are the C series machines that big of an improvement over the B series machines in reliability? I talked to a guy today that ranted about his B series engine getting dusted from the air filter even though he claims to have replaced frequently and take care of his machine. Should have heard the expletives fly!

DirtyWorks
04-01-2008, 10:26 PM
I don't think it would be hard to clean at all with the aftercooler blow gun.

Whats that? did I miss a feature?

CarterKraft
04-03-2008, 01:12 AM
I would say the Cs are a great deal better than the b's but not a huge margin from the b2.

There are always storys like that, " I blew my filters out every day, I always kept them clean" etc.

How much air pressure did you use?

What style of blow gun, small presice orfice or larger volume?

How many times can a filter be blown out?

Were you seeing dirt tracking on the Safety filter?

These are some of the factors that can determine if a machine was dusted by the operator or faulty equipment.

At any rate it rarely happens and you can bet we go out of our way to determine what happened, if CAT is at fault then they will take care of it.

DirtyWorks, I was talking about a long blow gun used to clean the after cooler screens behind the cab.

YellowDogSVC
04-04-2008, 12:10 AM
I use a long handled large volume air gun with a number of holes to clean things out. It isn't as concentrated as a hand blow gun and allows me to stand back so that I don't put so much force on an object. I am reluctant, though, to blow out an air filter. I rather shake it or replace it. It's cheap insurance, right? I did see dust on the inner filter on my new machine already. Maybe someone with dirty gloves touched it after I demoed the machine since it went back to the shop for a once over.

The book says 3x for blowing out a filter but I have always been told not to blow one out but rather replace it.

YellowDogSVC
04-06-2008, 08:53 PM
Here's a few pics of the 272c brush mods from Holt and a couple pics of the machine. The brush mods that are vinyl I'm not crazy about. The rear screen is quite a bit stronger than I originally thought but could be beefier. I have a few small issues to get addressed but so far CAT has been very attentive and helpful especially the sales guy.

YellowDogSVC
04-06-2008, 09:02 PM
Last pic is some of my attachments lined up. Missing from pic is a tilt tatch w/bucket, vibratory roller, grader (which is seen behind CAT picture), landscape rake 6b, extra industrial grapple, and a stump bucket and 4 n 1 bucket. Pictured are brushcat, forks, cat 18b stump grinder, industrial grapple, farm grapple, cat mulcher, tree shear, auger, bucket.

I believe you can't have too many attachments. :weightlifter:

mrsops
04-06-2008, 09:15 PM
any dust getting in that cab yet??

kreft
04-06-2008, 09:52 PM
thats one nice loader but i do see a little dust on the pilots i beleive?

bobcat_ron
04-06-2008, 10:59 PM
I see there's some type of feather duster hanging on the right side of the cab! (left side of the pic for those who are "special")

dozerman21
04-06-2008, 11:15 PM
Nice looking machine Yellow. Nice attachment candy store too. Keep us posted on how it does for you. One thing I don't care for is where Cat puts the stereo. It seems like they could have mounted it where you could see it, and not have to be Gumby the change the station.

YellowDogSVC
04-06-2008, 11:43 PM
thats one nice loader but i do see a little dust on the pilots i beleive?

more than a little! CAT has promised to fix it to be dust free.

YellowDogSVC
04-06-2008, 11:47 PM
I see there's some type of feather duster hanging on the right side of the cab! (left side of the pic for those who are "special")

since I run lexan, even a little dust will "cling" to the static charge lexan naturally has. I found those "california" type duster (wax free ones) to be good at a quick swipe to keep the dust from clinging on the lexan.


as far as the stereo, a remote control would have been nice. I used a small XM radio in the Bobcat suction cupped to the glass to my upper left where I could see what was on and what time it was. The CAT stereo is probably in a bad spot. It is close to air return and I imagine the CD player will get full of dust even if its just from me or opening the door or window. The sound is awesome, though, and its a high end radio for a guy whose used to stock radios in trucks.

mrsops
04-06-2008, 11:53 PM
since I run lexan, even a little dust will "cling" to the static charge lexan naturally has. I found those "california" type duster (wax free ones) to be good at a quick swipe to keep the dust from clinging on the lexan.


as far as the stereo, a remote control would have been nice. I used a small XM radio in the Bobcat suction cupped to the glass to my upper left where I could see what was on and what time it was. The CAT stereo is probably in a bad spot. It is close to air return and I imagine the CD player will get full of dust even if its just from me or opening the door or window. The sound is awesome, though, and its a high end radio for a guy whose used to stock radios in trucks.

the radio in my 305 is real sweet

bobcat_ron
04-07-2008, 10:16 AM
If anyone uses the Lexan front window, I've already had to Epoxy the seams together as the Silicone (that "glues" the 3 pieces side by side) failed after I used a Lexan Window cleaner. PermaTex 2 part Epoxy and some masking tape worked wonders.

YellowDogSVC
04-07-2008, 10:29 AM
The new windows are 1 piece. My main issue with lexan is the scratching. I hate that on the Bobcat but part of business. Probably $1k to replace each time on the Cat!

bobcat_ron
04-07-2008, 10:36 AM
There's a Lexan Company in town here that uses an Oven to form windows to different contours, I really need to check with them on a price for a I piece.

CarterKraft
04-07-2008, 12:33 PM
There is a one piece for the B/B2?

YellowDogSVC
04-07-2008, 05:38 PM
There is a one piece for the B/B2?

I was referring to the C series in that they are 1 piece or so it looks.

Ron, I had some windows made for my Bobcat that needed to be curved. They just heated it and formed it. I paid about $550USD for 1/4" lexan delivered to my door. They needed a form to follow, however. Not sure how you would go about that unless you could leave them your door for a template for the first time.

bobcat_ron
04-07-2008, 05:44 PM
I can just take the door along, I don't really need the door most of the time anyways, but they deal with every type of equipment as it is, so templates shouldn't be that hard to get.

YellowDogSVC
04-09-2008, 11:40 PM
I see there's some type of feather duster hanging on the right side of the cab! (left side of the pic for those who are "special")

CAT figured out where the dust is getting in. They have pledged to fix it right and told me the cab will be sealed and pressurized. My other issue was resolved. I'm kind of the guinea pig on some things since the machines are still kind of new but CAT has been very responsive and the techs are very professional. Heck, I'm impressed that they have to plug a laptop into machine to talk to it. That's cool. They showed me where and how calibrations are called for and showed me how they have instant access to flow charts for servicing components. That's a pretty good tool when you think about how many different machines a CAT tech will see in a week.

I'll keep everyone posted but I really, really like this machine and actually look forward to working in it because it is so comfortable. I get to mulch on Friday if I get enough stacked tomorrow so I will try and get some pics.

stuvecorp
04-09-2008, 11:45 PM
That's cool they are taking care of the problem and making it right for you.

mrsops
04-09-2008, 11:47 PM
my cat dealer has been real helpful to.. but maybe thats because we just bought are first cat :)

YellowDogSVC
04-10-2008, 09:26 AM
I had great dealings with Bobcat except on my last machine. The local service tried but the it was the design of the door that prevented me from sealing my recent S300. The bolt on 3/4 lexan looked homemade and had gaps big enough for my fingers to fit through and the only fix was weatherstrip and caulk. I said no way Jose and went back put my 1/4" lexan door back on and ordered some extra lexan inserts from a different supplier. Bobcat corporate hadn't released the other forestry door that sealed better but I wanted a wiper anyway and the 3/4 forestry door didn't have one. Cat comes ready to go other than the fact that the cab isn't sealed perfect. They vowed to fix it and said so with a smile. I like that service and feel comfortable that they will work with me as much as my local bobcat dealer has.

YellowDogSVC
04-13-2008, 07:38 PM
This is why you want to get a debris kit on a CAT C series. I have the debris kit and this dust and debris is from only 20 or so hours of grinding!

bobcat_ron
04-13-2008, 08:00 PM
I was going to comment on how clean the "guts" look, but the thought escapes me, BTW is there a missing cap on the circled hose fitting?

YellowDogSVC
04-13-2008, 08:22 PM
I was going to comment on how clean the "guts" look, but the thought escapes me, BTW is there a missing cap on the circled hose fitting?

dangit, I already put the cab down and opened it again becasue of the loose fitting in the middle. Now I have to open it again to see.

YellowDogSVC
04-13-2008, 08:25 PM
after zooming in, I'm thinking it's a dirty cap. If not, it would be an unused line.

bobcat_ron
04-13-2008, 09:07 PM
Yup, I zoomed in too, just some crud on it.

Digdeep
04-13-2008, 09:43 PM
This is why you want to get a debris kit on a CAT C series. I have the debris kit and this dust and debris is from only 20 or so hours of grinding!

I really hope they find a way to seal that up better for you. I can't imagine what it will look like when it is really dry outside or you start getting into finer material that includes grasses or small fines. How clean does the engine compartment stay?

YellowDogSVC
04-13-2008, 11:05 PM
I really hope they find a way to seal that up better for you. I can't imagine what it will look like when it is really dry outside or you start getting into finer material that includes grasses or small fines. How clean does the engine compartment stay?

Engine compartment has been too bad. I stuffed some foam and some pieces of cut to fit air filters in the big gaps. It will help block some of the material. I am thinking I may have to make a form and pour a foam plug to fit the area for a tighter fit. Just too many places to pull crap into on these machines. I just don't know what CAT was thinking with the openings. They had to know these machines would use the CAT mulcher. The debris kits are after market, cheesy at best on the covers, and won't last long. It's about $2500 for the parts (screens and vinyl) to be installed. Haven't priced replacement screens yet but I am thinking real hard about my foam idea. As long as the cab still lifts and you can access the cab bolts, what would the foam hurt?

ksss
04-13-2008, 11:56 PM
Engine compartment has been too bad. I stuffed some foam and some pieces of cut to fit air filters in the big gaps. It will help block some of the material. I am thinking I may have to make a form and pour a foam plug to fit the area for a tighter fit. Just too many places to pull crap into on these machines. I just don't know what CAT was thinking with the openings. They had to know these machines would use the CAT mulcher. The debris kits are after market, cheesy at best on the covers, and won't last long. It's about $2500 for the parts (screens and vinyl) to be installed. Haven't priced replacement screens yet but I am thinking real hard about my foam idea. As long as the cab still lifts and you can access the cab bolts, what would the foam hurt?


$2,500 out to buy a whole lot of screens and vinyl. Wow.

YellowDogSVC
04-14-2008, 12:30 AM
$2,500 out to buy a whole lot of screens and vinyl. Wow.

There were some other things like welding and fabricating especially at the back door. If I had done it myself, I imagine my warranty would be void.