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americanlawn
01-22-2008, 12:37 PM
This is simular to the post regarding applying with a ride-on. I've always wondered is any effectiveness is lost due to evaporation when a person uses a low volume sprayer such as a Permagreen ride-on. On warm/windy days, I have watched my guys spray with our PG units, and it looks like much of the mist doesn't hit the ground. Is it only the carrier (water) that might evaporate, or could some of the herbicide also evaporate??

Thanks.:usflag:

RigglePLC
01-22-2008, 01:19 PM
Good question Larry,
i would like to see the results comparing spraying at different times of the day. 24 different results possible.

americanlawn
01-22-2008, 01:55 PM
Thanks Riggle...........I figured this would be a tough one cuz I've asked this question to ISU as well as several venders. I still have not received an answer. There has to be somebody who has answers. Ric knows his stuff, he might be the only one out there who might know the effects of evaporation.

This IS a "toughy". I expect alot of viewers, and few responses on this one.:confused:



OTE=RigglePLC;2110521]Good question Larry,
i would like to see the results comparing spraying at different times of the day. 24 different results possible.[/QUOTE]

philk17088
01-22-2008, 03:13 PM
Check the msds sheets, they should list evaporation temperature, volitization temps, flash points...

Rayholio
01-22-2008, 03:16 PM
The chem can vaporize for sure. That's supposedly the reason Fusilade II will kill everything when sprayed on 85 degree + sunny days

I'm sure some chems are more sensative to this than others..

turf hokie
01-22-2008, 05:13 PM
Funny you bring this up.

I do think you lose some amount of chemical to volitization and evaporation depending on temps.

My first year I started out part time while working for someone else...so I was out until dark many nights. It did seem that I would get better control on the lawns that were sprayed at 7:30 at night than the ones that were sprayed in the heat of the day 3:00. I would say the difference could be from around 80% control in the heat to 90% control later in the day.

This is just one man's observations, no technical data to support it.

Ric
01-22-2008, 06:06 PM
Check the msds sheets, they should list evaporation temperature, volitization temps, flash points...

Philk

You are on the right track, but only half way there. Other factors like the stability for a chemical come into play in volitalization. Most Esters will volatilize quicker than amines etc. But the bottom line is, Drift is not a good thing. To knowing apply Chemicals in unfavorable conditions, is only something a pure Idiot would do.

rcreech
01-22-2008, 09:32 PM
Philk

You are on the right track, but only half way there. Other factors like the stability for a chemical come into play in volitalization. Most Esters will volatilize quicker than amines etc. But the bottom line is, Drift is not a good thing. To knowing apply Chemicals in unfavorable conditions, is only something a pure Idiot would do.

I agree Ric!

Don't spray when windy, high hum, hot and this shouldn't be an issue.

The time from the product leaving the tip to hitting the target is only split seconds. Is that really enough time for a product to volatilize?

The droplets coming out of a PG for example are actually very large. I would maybe think that their could be more volatization or just as much from a flat fan application. When you look at the micron size a PG will actually have a much larger droplet size.

Once the product hits that target, I don't think the carrier amound makes any difference or would volatilize any quicker!

This is a great topic, but not sure there is a sound answer unless studies have been done on this!

Grandview
01-23-2008, 07:53 AM
If volitization

Grandview
01-23-2008, 07:58 AM
If evaporation was such a big problem how come airplanes work. They spray at a gallon or less per acre. I get consistent, excellent control with 5 gal/acre or less.

garydale
01-23-2008, 08:26 AM
Did the weed control work?

rcreech
01-23-2008, 09:59 AM
If evaporation was such a big problem how come airplanes work. They spray at a gallon or less per acre. I get consistent, excellent control with 5 gal/acre or less.


Very good point!

Ric
01-23-2008, 10:09 AM
I agree Ric!

Don't spray when windy, high hum, hot and this shouldn't be an issue.

The time from the product leaving the tip to hitting the target is only split seconds. Is that really enough time for a product to volatilize?

The droplets coming out of a PG for example are actually very large. I would maybe think that their could be more volatization or just as much from a flat fan application. When you look at the micron size a PG will actually have a much larger droplet size.

Once the product hits that target, I don't think the carrier amound makes any difference or would volatilize any quicker!

This is a great topic, but not sure there is a sound answer unless studies have been done on this!


rcreech

What is the re-occurring theme at all Core CEU seminars? Non target application. This seems to be a real problem for the ******ed and a real feather in the Trees Hugger's cap for banning pesticides.

jspray
01-27-2008, 08:54 PM
Using new nozzle technology, pre-orifice and air inducted tips spraying at 5 gpa is easy even in 10mph+ wind. Add crop oil--17% surfactant/83% pariffin based pet. oil and its nearly hurricane proof.
At 20 or even 30 psi you will not get any smoke or fines {drift} off these type tips.

americanlawn
01-28-2008, 05:40 PM
I was told by a farm co-op that "whenever you can smell the product you are applying a few feet away, this means you are losing some of this product to volatization. Doesn't matter if it's ammonia, hog manure, or pesticides. Wind may not be as important as humidity".

On the day I stood back and watched my applicator spray with his ride-on sprayer, the winds were basically calm, and it was sunny. I couldn't smell anything, but I could see the mist swirl before it hit the turf.

Heres my theory....seems we get the best weed control when it's cloudy & humid (and even in drizzle or sprinkles). Not much volatilization then? This might indicate that more active ingredient is contacting the target area?

BTW I was not assuming applications would be applied to non-target areas. (duh)

rcreech
01-28-2008, 05:48 PM
I was told by a farm co-op that "whenever you can smell the product you are applying a few feet away, this means you are losing some of this product to volatization. Doesn't matter if it's ammonia, hog manure, or pesticides. Wind may not be as important as humidity".

On the day I stood back and watched my applicator spray with his ride-on sprayer, the winds were basically calm, and it was sunny. I couldn't smell anything, but I could see the mist swirl before it hit the turf.

Heres my theory....seems we get the best weed control when it's cloudy & humid (and even in drizzle or sprinkles). Not much volatilization then? This might indicate that more active ingredient is contacting the target area?

BTW I was not assuming applications would be applied to non-target areas. (duh)

American,

Hope things are going well for you! Haven't seen you on here lately!

I have a totally sick analogy but I think it is appropriate!

Think of when you walk in a bathroom and someone is taking a serious crap! :dizzy:

All the crap is going into the toilet,....you are just having to deal with the odor! :laugh:

I think this is the same for the products we apply!

Most prodcuts have an odor, but I don't think it is because we are losing the product or it is going off target!

When spraying our fields I can smell some products we use from a 1/2 mile away. The product isn't drifting that far, it is just the odor of the product.

That just my take on it!

americanlawn
01-28-2008, 05:59 PM
I hear ya rcreech. One thing I know regarding farmers drilling in nitrogen, if one can smell it a ways away, this means fert loss.

rcreech
01-28-2008, 06:06 PM
I hear ya rcreech. One thing I know regarding farmers drilling in nitrogen, if one can smell it a ways away, this means fert loss.

You are probably talking about NH4). It is actually a compressed liquid/gas and if the slot isn't closed quickly there can be some loss.

There is quite a bit of loss when using NH4.

That is why I use 28-0-0.

NH4 is nasty stuff!

americanlawn
01-29-2008, 06:11 PM
Took this off a Trimec 992 label..... Physical Data:::: Vapor pressure = < 1. Evaporation rate = < 1. Vapor density = < 1. Boiling point = 212 degrees. I don't know about you guys, but I can't figure this out, though I learned that herbicide can boil at the same temperature as water. LOL

PHS
01-29-2008, 07:24 PM
Something that occurs to me about the smell theory is that there are all kinds inert ingredients in pesticides that aren't the actual A.I.. What we are concerned about is the potential volatilization of the A.I. specifically. Some of the time what you are smelling are the solvents not the actual A.I. like with Subdue. With anhydrous, rcreech correct me if I'm wrong, but that's a relatively pure material and the A.I. itself is extremely volatile so if you can smell it chances are you're smelling the A.I. and also losing A.I.. 2,4-D may be a similar situation too. In the case with manures and things like that there are hundreds or thousands of different compounds that it's actually comprised of and the aromatic molecules that volatilize and you can smell aren't little complete bits of poo flying through the air...Geez I wish I paid a little more attention in organic chemistry class :).

DUSTYCEDAR
01-29-2008, 07:35 PM
i have seen where young maple tree leaves were curled after someone sprayed the lawn with weed control and it was hot out.
the product vaporized and curled the bottom leaves of the trees.
the lawn seemed to be sprayed with a hose and i am guessing 2 gal per k

nik
01-29-2008, 07:42 PM
Your right there PHS.

Evaporation will be more of an issue after the product has been applied. Dead calm on a coll morning can be just as bad as windy later on. Micro-climates can get you even with amines. A nice thick hedge that blocks the wind but lets the lawn get full sun will be warmer than other areas. A light colored home that reflects light or blacktop will warm the air right next to the edge of where you are applying.

The real fun with volatiles is that it can happen a day or two later. Generally what goes on lawns is really low concentration-wise. Higher concentrations applied a day or two before it gets real hotter you can still get volatiles.

Crossbow (2,4-D and triclopyr)is a great product for homeowners out here to do major damage.

rcreech
01-29-2008, 07:54 PM
i have seen where young maple tree leaves were curled after someone sprayed the lawn with weed control and it was hot out.
the product vaporized and curled the bottom leaves of the trees.
the lawn seemed to be sprayed with a hose and i am guessing 2 gal per k

Pesticide application is the first thing that people jump to when they see "curled or cupped leaves".

How do you know that the product "vaporized" and that it wasn't overspray or drift etc?

This is where a through investigation is needed to find out the cause.

Wind Speed
Wind Direction
Humidity
Was any other plants affected (that could possibly be more apt to pesticides)?
Could the heat you discuss (or dry conditions) been the cause of the leaves to curl?
Timeframe of the event


I am not saying that the app couldn't cause this...but I hate to hear people jump right to it!

RigglePLC
01-29-2008, 08:50 PM
Just to add another complication. When Using Confront (years ago) I think I got root uptake of the chlorpyrilid chemical. Injured maple trees and some redbud trees, (slightly).

I feel comfortable using less water (except for wettable powders). As long as you get the active ingredient onto the plant surface it should work.

DUSTYCEDAR
01-29-2008, 08:54 PM
i guess it could have been over spray i dont know for sure but only the trees in the front yard were affected and it appeared that only the front was sprayed as the back was full of weeds.

PHS
01-29-2008, 09:32 PM
That's a nice area where you're at Nik. I think I could live with fishing the Santiam on regular basis :).

rcreech
01-29-2008, 09:44 PM
American,

You are a good man and everyone on here knows it except a few! You don't have to prove yourself on here! We have seen your sweet setup and know you run a very successful business!

I hate it when people attack on here! Unfortunatly I have been attacked a little here lately and somehow it gets turned around. I can't stand it!

I am learning (or trying) to keep my mouth shut but it is hard!
Lets set a good example for the Republicans and Democrats and show them how easy it is to get along! :laugh:

PSUTURFGEEK
01-29-2008, 10:04 PM
Your'e always innocent, you just can't let anything rest can you??

americanlawn
01-29-2008, 10:53 PM
Philk

You are on the right track, but only half way there. Other factors like the stability for a chemical come into play in volitalization. Most Esters will volatilize quicker than amines etc. But the bottom line is, Drift is not a good thing. To knowing apply Chemicals in unfavorable conditions, is only something a pure Idiot would do.

Thanks for the news Ric, you are now qualified to teach kindergarden.:laugh:

More importantly, you have just exceeded our 'thirty time' rule.

The 'thirty time rule' was agreed upon by my employees a couple of years ago. Three of which post and/or reply on this site. (So it's not always just me regarding americanlawn).

Meanwhile, we'll be watching. " agreed to tolerate guys like you, but we agreed to set a limit as well. You have now met that limit.

Bottom line: We will begin meeting 'your standards'...(which are very low). Our advice for you is to be careful on how many times you "treat people" the way you do.


What goes around comes around. C,M,L.

lawnservice
01-30-2008, 01:54 PM
Thanks Riggle...........I figured this would be a tough one cuz I've asked this question to ISU as well as several venders. I still have not received an answer. There has to be somebody who has answers. Ric knows his stuff, he might be the only one out there who might know the effects of evaporation.




talk about attacks....geez ...American specifically ask for Ric's response AND as ussual because he doesnt like the answer,,, he comes back with, "Thanks for the news Ric, you are now qualified to teach kindergarden.

More importantly, you have just exceeded our 'thirty time' rule.

The 'thirty time rule' was agreed upon by my employees a couple of years ago. Three of which post and/or reply on this site. (So it's not always just me regarding americanlawn).

Meanwhile, we'll be watching. " agreed to tolerate guys like you, but we agreed to set a limit as well. You have now met that limit.

Bottom line: We will begin meeting 'your standards'...(which are very low). Our advice for you is to be careful on how many times you "treat people" the way you do."



******yawn*********

Ric
01-30-2008, 04:03 PM
talk about attacks....geez ...American specifically ask for Ric's response AND as ussual because he doesnt like the answer,,, he comes back with, "Thanks for the news Ric, you are now qualified to teach kindergarden.

More importantly, you have just exceeded our 'thirty time' rule.

The 'thirty time rule' was agreed upon by my employees a couple of years ago. Three of which post and/or reply on this site. (So it's not always just me regarding americanlawn).

Meanwhile, we'll be watching. " agreed to tolerate guys like you, but we agreed to set a limit as well. You have now met that limit.

Bottom line: We will begin meeting 'your standards'...(which are very low). Our advice for you is to be careful on how many times you "treat people" the way you do."



******yawn*********

lawnservice

Give Pasture Grass a break in this case. One of my posts was deleted for ..............a fool.

Anyone read here with any regularity knows Pasture Grass and I Don't hit it off.

americanlawn
01-30-2008, 04:21 PM
Hi Ric. This is Pasture Grass. Mason posted the 30 hit rule thing. Didn't know he did 'til today. No big deal one way or the other with me. Personally, I'll put up with snide remarks a little more than Mason. But I too will fire back on occasion. I tossed it over to you regarding the evaporation post -- hoping you would know, cuz I realize you know alot more than I do in many areas. One thing's for sure....you and I (sometimes Mason) make this site interesting. Later.

americanlawn
01-30-2008, 05:01 PM
We're figuring on trying nozzles from Hypro for our permagreens this year. They say less mist????? Nuther thing is we're gunna try is a new turfco ride on. Larry says we can't post anything about the turfco until we get permission. Can't wait till spring. Mason. american lawn care