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poiuy qwerty
01-23-2008, 09:53 AM
Ok from what I understand if you are using the hub wiring method all leads have or should be the same length. I am in a situation where the leads will all have to be 90'. Is that ok? We are putting lights around a pool and we would prefer not to have any connections in the sleeves so we were thinking that we will extend all the leads out side of the deck area and connect in the bed. Is that wrong or is it ok?

Pro-Scapes
01-23-2008, 10:08 AM
Ok from what I understand if you are using the hub wiring method all leads have or should be the same length. I am in a situation where the leads will all have to be 90'. Is that ok? We are putting lights around a pool and we would prefer not to have any connections in the sleeves so we were thinking that we will extend all the leads out side of the deck area and connect in the bed. Is that wrong or is it ok?

Oh boy... you need more hubs. there should be a hub within 20 ft of all fixtures. If they wont reach... run another hub. The hubs are home run to the trans. with a 90ft 16ga lead your going to be wasting wire and losing over 2v... not a very energy effecient system not to mention trying to get 11v out there. I suppose it would work but its one of thoes shooting yourself in the foot things.

This is exactly why we need licensing and certifications for lighting. I agree with connections in the sleeves and make them in the bed but what your saying is a recipe for disaster with 90 foot leads. Seriously since your not up and up on how to install lighting sub this out. If you dont know how to wire a job I doubt your going to be up on code when it comes to fixtures near water and proper wiring techniques.

Im not saying you shouldnt do lighting. Im saying you should be more confident on a basic technique and planning before you go wiring pool areas. Consider subbing this out and learning from that or get a paid design and consult on it at the very least.

Lite4
01-23-2008, 11:48 AM
Exactly Billy,
If you are having a space of 90' between lights you either need to run more hubs or run 12/2 directly to each fixture from the tranny and test the voltage individually at each light. Why are you spreading out the lights so far from each other? Are they path lights or spot lights? It seams pretty spread out to be a very effective lighting portrait.

irrig8r
01-23-2008, 11:54 AM
Do you think he means 90 ft. home runs and just doesn't know the jargon yet?

Pro-Scapes
01-23-2008, 12:04 PM
possibility but from his description he was speaking about leads and extending them 90'

bad plan.... bad

poiuy qwerty
01-24-2008, 10:17 AM
OK let me try to explain this better. our customer has a new pool with gym/building 20' away. he wants 4 - 6 spot lights ( cast bullets lights with 20watt bulbs) anchored to the stone side of the building. the transformer is on the side of that same building. the furthest fixture is 90' from the flower bed the closest light is about 2'. the transformer is about 25' - 30' from the closest light. the pool deck is going to be poured right up to the building. hope this helped explain the layout better.

Pro-Scapes
01-24-2008, 10:50 AM
are you going to be surface mounting lights to the concrete ? why not have sleves and conduits put in and use an inground fixture so its recessed.

BK...unique...nightscaping... among others all have nice flush mounts.

As for your distance... i would have to see the building and measurements to determine where I would place hubs or if I would wire in a T

If your dead set on surface mounting I would look at the probe OSM from unique with the sphere base if you intend to hang the light on a wall.

Again pics are ever important.

On the leads... dont extend leads to 90'... install extra hubs so they are within reach of each fixture with the included leads.

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=203817 would be an excellent thread for you to read

ChampionLS
01-24-2008, 11:49 PM
Why not install a transformer right by the pool pump? Your home run and/or fixture wiring will be shorter. Of course, you need to follow all safety guidelines in respect to the location of the fixtures and transformer to the pool.

Pro-Scapes
01-25-2008, 01:17 AM
Why not install a transformer right by the pool pump? Your home run and/or fixture wiring will be shorter. Of course, you need to follow all safety guidelines in respect to the location of the fixtures and transformer to the pool.

Trans placement isnt the issue here it seems... I think I am understanding what he is meaning now. What he will have is a long long conduit under the pour to reach the fixtures. Since there is only a few fixtures going in I would probably go with an ingrade and install pour sleeves and the conduits prior to the pool deck doing in.

Is downlighting from the soffits of the gym building an option ? Again pics here would completly clairfy the situation at hand..

From what it sounds like he could do the ingrades and wire it in a T fashion and be well within spec

seolatlanta
01-25-2008, 01:45 AM
It sounds to me like he should run a home run to each of his fixtures. If the pipe is under the concrete , it seems to be the only way.

It will only be 6 wires total , at the most , but I am guessing that will be the best way to control voltage. Just a thought...

seolatlanta
01-25-2008, 01:46 AM
It sounds to me like he should run a home run to each of his fixtures. If the pipe is under the concrete , it seems to be the only way.

It will only be 6 wires total , at the most , but I am guessing that will be the best way to control voltage. Just a thought...

poiuy qwerty
01-25-2008, 09:54 AM
First of all thank you all for the help. The customer asked for bullet type lights anchored to the building - no down lights - no recessed lights in the pool deck. I will be there
today I will take some pics and post them.
For argument sake what would be the longest you can extend the leads? They come with 25' leads already. I know the tree lights come with 30' leads so i know that is safe. What would be the max?

irrig8r
01-25-2008, 11:38 AM
It's not really a matter of "safe" if you mean safety... but more a matter of voltage drop over the length of the wire. Use a voltage drop calculator available on lots of manufacturer's websites, even if their formulas vary a little. I know Unique has one, and Vista has one.. sounds like you might be using either Unique or CAST... talk to Joey or Steve here.

Pro-Scapes
01-25-2008, 04:41 PM
this doesnt make sence. How are you planning to run the wire from within the sleeves up to the surface mounted fixtures ? is the building brick and your going to grind out mortar or are you planning on j box mounting these with a conduit coming out of the ground ?

I gotta see the pics but im sure there is a logical solution to this

poiuy qwerty
01-30-2008, 09:58 AM
here is a pic of the building lightis go across. transformer is on far right side.

poiuy qwerty
01-30-2008, 10:00 AM
pool deck will be poured right up to building. what would be the best wiring meathod?
guess i have to change date on my camera.

poiuy qwerty
01-30-2008, 10:07 AM
another shot of the building. lights will be anchored to building

JoeyD
01-30-2008, 11:05 AM
25ft leads if using 16/2 will have a .5v drop, a full 50ft lead you will have 1v drop. That is from your Hub to lamp. You can custom order our lights with any size lead you want. When going to 50ft+ we switch to 12ga to minimize the VD for you.

You can always call me to discuss over the phone. May be easier as sometimes things get lost in translation when typing.

steveparrott
01-30-2008, 11:07 AM
You can consider spider splice locations at either or both corners of the house (if you have dirt beds there) to combine 2 or 3 of the fixtures (if the leads reach). If the leads don't reach, I'd advise cutting the leads at the fixture location and splicing directly to the home run wires. I don't advise extending leads because of the extra splices in the system (mainly because of the labor and parts cost).

I am wondering why you decided to mount the bullets on the wall. I'd advise either mounting them on the concrete deck or better yet, using well lights sunk into the concrete at those locations. An inground fixture would yield a better spread on the wall (the beam will start lower on the wall compared to the bullet). See the attached project (design by Dale Carey):

Pro-Scapes
01-30-2008, 11:22 AM
4-6 20 w bulding mounted spots would look like a birthday candle atop a wedding cake here. Steve is right on the money with the recessed as others have said before. Take your client a photo and educate them.

Also plan ahead for 35w lamps. Thats pretty dark stone going up a good ways. A wall like that will eat 20w lamps alive.
I would probably be looking for double that and also remove thoes coach lights in exchange for an up and down scone (about to do one like this)

This is pretty advanced lighting and altho you might be great with landscape lighting architecture is a whole different breed. You might be best to contact a reputable lighting company in your area and at least pay for a consult.

Hubs at both ends and 12ga leads might work but this needs to be planned to ensure voltage drop is not an issue.

If the client is dead set on 4-6 20w lights what I would do is perform a mock up before that pool deck goes down and your up a creek

poiuy qwerty
01-31-2008, 10:13 AM
Once again thank you all for the help and advise.
I did place lights in the locations as you can kind of see in one picture. Pro scapes you were correct about the 20W bulbs - it was like a pen light. I bumped them to 35W and the customer is happy with them.
I think the best way to go is run a home run to each fixture. correct me if I am wrong.