Fertilization & Lawn Pricing

[millenium_123]

I asked about this before but nobody answered my question. I'm wanting to know about how much to charge for fertilizing? I normally just charge like $10 to put it out on the lawn with a spreader. It only takes about 10 minutes. Is this too cheap?
Also I raised my prices last year on most of my lawns. I really had no complaints about that. Would it be too much to go up again this year? I just feel that I don't charge enough, especially considering expenses and all. Gas especially, I think it will hit $4.00 a gallon here this summer!

[SpringHillTnLandscaping]

You need to look at your overall costs and what you want to make to know if you need to raise your pricing. Start keeping a close record of all of your reciepts, your route, and repair expenses etc. Then compare it with how much you are bringing in. You may be surprised to find that you suck. You may be surprised and find that you are really profitable. The research I have seen is you should expect about $32 to $35 a man hour in the Lawn field. In that you have insurance, Wear and tear, replacing equiptment when needed, labor, taxes you have to pay etc. You have to add your supplies what ever they are and the cost to get them and deliver them to the client. If you are not doing these things you may think you are making money but be fooling yourself. You can only run your equiptment into the ground for so long before you eventually go out of business because of bad money pratices. But you may find that you have hit the jackpot in the way you are working and in that case congrats. You need to plan for growth and you need to always have Winter on your mind because it is coming fast no matter what time of year it is. Does anyone else know a good man hour price for this guy?

http://www.LandscapeNashville.com/spring-hill-tn-lawncare.html

[Whitey4]

Ten bucks? Do you always work for free? Have you seen fertilizer prices this year?

[SpringHillTnLandscaping]

my link didn't work www.landscapenashville.com/spring-hill-tn-lawncare.html now I will try it.

[SpringHillTnLandscaping]

still not working. www.landscapenashville.com now I will try this one

[ffemtmcd]

I charge at least $5 / 1000 sq ft. yard. with a min. of $30.

[Whitey4]

I charge at least $5 / 1000 sq ft. yard. with a min. of $30.

That is a low ball price if ever I saw one. cost of fert (as a low volume buyer) is about $2.00/1k. It's gonna go up some more too. At $30, you would do a 6k property? That's nuts. Your material cost alone would be $12, and figure it could go as high as $18 soon. Gentlemen, please, do some homework! Get some recent prices!

[ffemtmcd]

Geez - slow down whitey, I said I "start at" ... besides it depends on the "program" the customer signs on for.

[dKoester]

Its no wonder why some guys can't make it in this business!

[cpel2004]

That website is to busy, it hurts my eyes to look at it.

[Whitey4]

Geez - slow down whitey, I said I "start at" ... besides it depends on the "program" the customer signs on for.

Sorry, but if you said starting at $10/1k, it would still be low. $5/1k would be my no profit family price. If you want to give something away, make it an "extra" service, something the customer wouldn't order, but keep your profit margins on services you know they will order. Put some aluminum sulphate on their hydrangas for example. Don't low ball essential services. That should be your bread and butter, where your profit is!

[Lawn-Sharks]

the lawns i fertilize are small. so heres my break down.

1-bag of fert $18 .i charge cust $25.
local jobs i add $4 to total bill for fuel
i charge $35Hr to apply but usually takes 10 to 15min. but i start and run the sprinkler system. each station at least 7min. and while im running the sprinkler im checking them to see if their heads are working rite. if their not i inform the home owner which ones dont work and how much i will charge them to fix them.
never hurts to try to get more work! so enough said it takes me an hour so the total is $64.00... and i always have left over fert and after 3jobs theirs enough left over to do a 4th lawn free and clear." This is just me" your results may be different or who ever is reading this "YOUR RESULTS" may be different!

[magland]

Prices vary around the country. I'm sure you get a lot more for a lawn in New York than we do in Nebraska or Kansas. With that being said, any fert application now days under $30 is cheap. Even if the lawn is very small. Between the cost of fert, gas, and labor, you need to make some money.

I know it seems easy to throw down some fert, but the next thing you know you're doing it for 100 people at $10 a crack. Everyone will jump on that price. Plus it will be a battle to get your price up to say a minimum of $30 once you start that low. It's better to do 3 lawns for $90 than 9 lawns for $90 anyday. I would say the average price in this area is in the $40-$45 for 5000-6000 sq ft. Of course, we have the $25 guys also. Those guys won't be able to make it anymore. With record gas and fert, there is no way.

Our app prices have really gone up in the last few years. It's almost impossible not to pass on the rising costs. The funny thing is the prices a few years ago weren't much higher than they were 15 years ago. That's crazy! I remember charging $38-$40 for 5000 sq ft back in the early 90's when I worked for Barefoot. All the new guys kept bringing the price down to the point where nobody can make decent money. I think all that changes after this season. It will be a weed out year for sure.

[Whitey4]

Yep, I need to apologize. Prices in NY are significantly higher than most other areas. For instance, just being licensed and insured here will run you over $1500 in year one. These are largely recurring costs, and don't include being certified and registered to use pesticides, which is another $1000. I don't think I'll be chiming in on many "what to charge" threads anymore!

Sorry if I offended anyone.... but if you were on LI, NY, my comments are accurate!

[Omaha Lawnguy]

I've been researching this for a while now. haven't seemed to find a definite answers yet.

Mag - good to get some omaha input. So many of the prices I see quoted on this site don't seem to jive with what I see in our area. I've called and asked some places to get an idea of pricing. goal is to find some sort of formula to use to be competitive.

last fall I left my job as a landscape foreman and I started on my own.:dizzy:
Sorry guys, must say I was a lowballer just trying to make some money with $25 dollar apps along with lowball aerations, mows, srw's, patios, you name it. Thanks to what I've learned on this site I'm changing that this year and so I'm trying to figure how to come up with a formula, so I can know right away what I will charge on a lawn, not get priced out, but definitely not bring down the industry. Thanks to all of you experienced guys who post on this site. I've learned alot, especially that I have a lot to learn.

[ffemtmcd]

Magland - thanks - was going to make that very statement.
Whitey - it's cool - I don't believe you offended anyone - feelings aren't protected by the constitution anyway.

I was going to point out that my $30 apps are old lady's with a 3000 - 3500 sq. ft. yard. and they just want their grass green - that's it.

Getting back to the point of the thread however - When I first started on my own I did underbid my first couple of jobs and it ended up costing me. Getting better with pratice though. Never intentionally lowballed.

[Whitey4]

The properties here are quite small compared to most other areas of the country. 3-4 k is the average. That means a broadcast (and even on occassion, a drop) spreader, hand held atomizers and backpack sprayers. That is going to be priced very differently per k than a large property with a boom sprayer! The going rate around here for lime, ferts and weed controls is 40 bucks per property. I really don't think these guys even measure the sq footage! At least that's where it was last year, but with the cost of fert going up so much, that may change.

There are many obstacles to work around, most properties are heavilly landscaped with ornamentals and flower beds. It takes more time to apply without hitting non-target areas. Then, the cost of licensing and permits, along with 8 1/2% sales tax, I'm going in at $45 (tax inc) this year. I am also figuring on $3.00 per k for ferts before all is said and done this season. I think we will see another 33% increase in material costs before the next winter arrives.

Definitely time to start looking hard at the so called "organics". I just don't like the fact that organics haven't been as tested as urea, there is a lack of long term data on leaching (I have sandy loam and high water tables) and other possible complications from those materials. Having some reservations, I will start learning what I can about them. I just don't really like the idea of kids playing in chicken chit, ya'know?

[magland]

Lawnguy,

If you are just starting out and a one man operation, I can see the $25-$30 apps. You don't have much overhead, and $25 is a whole lot better than nothing. You have to gain accounts and make some money somewhere, and that is getting harder every year. Once you have a few crews going - rent, gas, insurance, etc, make it impossible to charge that. I would love to, but my wife sure wouldn't like my checks every month.

It seems the bigger we get, the more we have to charge. Kind of a defeating purpose to it all. Makes me want to downsize to where it makes sense. I remember just starting out too, and those were the days. Honestly, those first years were the most fun by far. The bigger you get, the more headaches that come with it.

[growingdeeprootsorganicly]

Guys
where i'm from the formula is what ever you charge for lawn maintenance. you charge that and a half more. so one and a half of the cost of a single cut. usually it includes weed control as far as spot treating. pr-emergence and grub is extra. And some charge by the foot .but usually just fert guys.
the post in this thread about adding your expenses up gas fert labor ins. ete
and figuring profit margin that way is a good way to go

guys remember if you have to low ball you are just hurting your self and the rest of us.
there are plenty of people out there willing to pay...

A note to whitey chicken chit as you put it is completely safe, Its composted first
I'd rather my kids play on that then a synthetic program lawn...Think about it

[Whitey4]

Guys
where i'm from the formula is what ever you charge for lawn maintenance. you charge that and a half more. so one and a half of the cost of a single cut. usually it includes weed control as far as spot treating. pr-emergence and grub is extra. And some charge by the foot .but usually just fert guys.
the post in this thread about adding your expenses up gas fert labor ins. ete
and figuring profit margin that way is a good way to go

guys remember if you have to low ball you are just hurting your self and the rest of us.
there are plenty of people out there willing to pay...

A note to whitey chicken chit as you put it is completely safe, Its composted first
I'd rather my kids play on that then a synthetic program lawn...Think about it

LOL, I knew that would get a rise out of someone! I have much to learn about organics, as I admitted. I think that is the future, but I'm not sure that the future is here yet. The thing about so called synthetics (they are still actually organic, but processed) is that they have been tested seventeen ways from Sunday.

Many organics have not been, especially for long term environmental impact. That doesn't mean I'm saying anything negative about them... I just want to see more long term data on these products, and some regulations governing their ingredients, both the AI and inert materials. The EPA has put few restictions on these materials, and it is largely unregulated. One has to trust the manufacturer as to what has and hasn't been done with these materials and what the potential risks are. Simply because something has been composted doesn't make it safe. A poorly made compost pile can cause more harm than good. It's an old tried and true method, but without a nutrient analysis, it still carries crop risk.

What is the most deadly pesticide there is? It's a so called organic. Nicotine. I'm not a non-believer, but I want to see more long term study, data and regs put on organics before I start to use them. Sorry for the hihack. I'm afraid of that organic forum.

[growingdeeprootsorganicly]

WHITY
you first got to under stand the term organic means having a carbon atom
when they mine minerals out of the ground they are in unavailable plant form not water soluble
when man takes that and makes it water soluble it's then man made,
synthetic, not natural.

In nature the organisms break those water insoluble minerals down to water soluble nutrient that's the difference

with man made ferts they can leach from the soil very easily
in an natural sustainable soil those nutrient's are not easily leach away cause the micro organisms determine the available nutrients to the plant
less chance of leaching
that's natural

and yes nicotine is very toxic, I don't think anybody uses it
Ive made garlic pepper tobacco bug sprays for my garden at home with pretty good results but, as far as lawn care, I don't think any body uses it, and a matter afact it's probably not even on the market or approved for lawn care.....for farming I don't know probably not.
chem ferts really are hurting the envierment cause they leach so easily
and people will spread them with out even considering the fact that if you put it down to heavy or just before a rain storm that you are doing something wrong.
things like that are the problem

Ive read only about 10 to 30 % of the ferts even get to the plant cause of leeching and evaporation
did you know if you lime at the same time you fert that it makes the nitrogen leech out as a gas?
don't be scared of organic's cause I bet you . Once you get a better understanding about sustainable landcare you'll be converted. LOL
And I'm not saying those ferts don't have their place it's just people really don't understand or care for that matter about their harm
also as long as composted things are tested for ecoili and salmonella.
they are completely safe
and there are many many more natural ferts then just manors
the object is to feed the micro organism's and in turn THEY feed the plant
vegetable proteins are a major source of food for them like alfalfa meal Cotton seed meal and many feed grains
If those type of things are safe to feed life stock I think they would be safe for your lawn

[Whitey4]

One of the problems with the whole organics vs. synthetics are the extremeists who condemn any synthetics across the board, the big companies that make synthetics and their lobbying and media manipulation on the other end. It can be very hard to filter through all that noise and have confidence in data and the studies that support any particular viewpoint. At least for me it is. It's almost like one has to pick a side and stick to it.

To draw an analogy, it reminds me of the NRA vs. the gun control proponents conflict. you pick a side, and you go far left or far right. I've always ben a moderate...LOL. Same thing with the organics. I am sure there is room for both in the world of green. Both have their place. Trying to get a grip on what those places are has so far been difficult for me to dicipher. I've read some bad things about poorly put together compost teas, but I know that compost teas can be awsome, natural and safe. I've been composting for use around my own house for many years, and find it's great for for winning blue ribbons at county fairs for flowers and produce! But when a company makes it, I would like to see more testing done... similar to what the synthetics have to go through.

I simply don't believe the 10% uptake thing. What I would believe is that synthetics are over applied (thanks largely in part to companies like Scotts) and result in only a 10% usage of those applications actually getting into plants. Big difference. Organics can be over applied too. They can leach in sandy soil as well. (which is what my native soil is, sandy loam)

I do use biological controls when possible. I wish they had an "invisable fence" for lady bugs. I prefer milky spore over a pesticide, except it takes 2 years to be effective, must have a sufficient host population, only works on Japanese beetle grubs, and any grub pesticide to control another type like European chaffer will kill the spores.

I think organics are the way, but I think it's in it's infancy. The conflict is also in customers that want immediate results. many organic approaches require patience. I think the sad truth is that companies like Scotts will push themselves out of existance, in the long term. I just got a notice from my local water district that 4 of 8 wells got shut down last year due to high Nitrate levels. i think that is because Joe Homeowner uses something like Scotts 4 step and applies it at twice the already too high N rate.

Bottom line, I have to balance my ability to make a living vs. using synthetics. I can cut my N down to 2 1/2 lbs per k, and with a good program it's unlikely it will leach. That means yearly additions of soils amendments that improve adsorptivity.

In any case, yes, I stay out of that organic forum because it seems to me that people would jump in my chit if I said any of this. I've seen them do it. Too bad... they have a lot ot offer. they just scare people like me away instead.

[growingdeeprootsorganicly]

Whitey
At least your open minded on the subject. Let me say that you might be right about the 10% issue but that goes to show the n demand really isn't that great. and how important soil testing is. Cause how can you put some thing down and not know what's already there to begin with? BUT I have read alot on syn ferts leeching away and evaporating away before the plant could use it and how lime affects n when you fert at the same time. other nutrient's are more important to me like micro's and ca, largely under estimated in importance's
in a properly managed organic enviorment it is largely self regulating, thats the beauty of it
and as far as what other people are going to say i wouldn't't worry to much about them just try to learn what you can
I'm an organics guy but, My philosophy is to use an IPM approach so that means
chems can have their place. Cause weed control is very difficult with out them at first
but as far as fert go Im strictly organic. I worry about salt build up from chem ferts and they hurt the micro organisms to a point so they are not part of my program
you said that you use 2 and a half lbs of n pr k per year? you have to read up on how much n is produced naturally by bacteria and fungi being eaten by protozoa
in a good totally sustained soil they can produce hundreds of pound per acres
and thats just by feeding them proteins and minerals
its pretty fascinating when you think about it
feed the organisms and let them feed the plants

[SpringHillTnLandscaping]

I hope you all are the same as me. I would rather make the right amount of money on a Lawn job a few times then spin my wheels buying product that I am not going to make money on from charging too little. If I seed or fertilize then I want it to be profitable. There are too many in our profession that lowball and make a profit somewhere else.

www.landscapenashville.com

[Whitey4]

growing, I wanted to PM you... but it looks like you haven't set your account up for PM's? Anyway, yes, I am only newly certified for pesticides anyway, but my next area of study is in organics and how I can use more in my IPM program. Thanks for the civil discussion, it's been informative. It's nice to have a discussion here without attacks... thanks.

[green_mark]

We run about 30.00 as a stop fee plus 4.50/1,000

[SpringHillTnLandscaping]

Whitey what state are you in and how much did it cost you to get set up for pesticides?
www.LandscapeNashville.com

[growingdeeprootsorganicly]

whitey,
thanks dude for the kind words
and i can't figure out how to set that option up? any clue to set my pm add on this site?
and learn every thing you can cause what ever program you use for your biz
using organics will help your fertility issues for customers plant's,,,,trees/shrubs/turf
you get the best results with them.
remember natures been doing it for millions of years! they have it figured out the blue print to proper health
not us.

[Whitey4]

Whitey what state are you in and how much did it cost you to get set up for pesticides?
www.LandscapeNashville.com


It's different in every state, I'm in NY. There is a pinned topic in the Apps forum that can get you started going in the right direction. For me, it was a 30 hour course for $275, 50 to take the test and 100 for the Certification fee. Now I have to register as a pesticide business with the state... another $450! They gave us a new version of the test. It wasn't real difficult, but I must have put in 60, maybe more hours of study besides the 30 hour course. There is a lot of info you have to remember. I had roughly a thousand pages of material to study. I'm a pretty good test taker and got 45 out of 50 right on both tests (there are two, one is called the CORE test, the other is for the category, 3a and 3b in my case, for turf and ornamentals). 15 wrong is he max you can have and still pass.

Aside from that, I also joined my local LCO association and had to join a Farmer's association as well to get a reasonable insurance rate, which was another $175. They can be VERY helpful when dealing with these government agencies. Some states require you to have worked for a certified applicator. That for 2 years or taking the course makes you eligible to take the test here. People in the apps forum from TN can answer questions for you better than I can. Supposedly the failure rate in NY is 45%. You DO have to study.

growing, go into your UserCP in the green band up top... you can change your settings there.

[speedy29]

$5 per tousand is $225 per acre no way to get that here as far as ive seen
I do charge a min of $75 stop charge but acre cost is closer to $165/acre

[Whitey4]

$5 per tousand is $225 per acre no way to get that here as far as ive seen
I do charge a min of $75 stop charge but acre cost is closer to $165/acre

You might want to read the whole thread. People doing postage stamp sized properties will charge MUCH more per k than a guy with a spray truck doing acres. If you are doing 5k, your stated minimum charge of $75 would be $15/k.

[fertguy2008]

Cheapest my largest customer will do acres for is $4.25/1000.
Residential shoud be at least $5-6/1000 with a minimum of $40/application on lawns 3500 s.f. or smaller

[SpringHillTnLandscaping]

Thanks for answering my question Whitey I have to wait till I get some money to get my App lic. I checked a few months ago and it was going to be around a $1000 total. I will have to wait till I can spare it.

www.LandscapeNashville.com
Landscaping like a maniac

[Whitey4]

Thanks for answering my question Whitey I have to wait till I get some money to get my App lic. I checked a few months ago and it was going to be around a $1000 total. I will have to wait till I can spare it.

www.LandscapeNashville.com
Landscaping like a maniac


Spring Hill, I'm not about to tell you what to do, or rewrite your business plan, but getting legal and doing apps will likely increase your profit margin by 200%... at least. Only mowing and blowing in my area would put me in the poor house in a hurry. It's an investment that is well worth the time and money IMO. It also makes this business more fun.... the more I learn about how to make all things that grow green and healthy is both intellectaully stimulating and more profitable. If you are in this for the long run, the sooner the better.

[PaproskiLandscaping]

So nice to see someone else advocating IPM... I won't even put down fert for someone unless the soil is to my liking. The selling point on that is that a customer is wasting money putting fert down on a soil that is too well drained or has too much or not enough organic content, or if the pH is not right. From our perspective we can generally make alot more money selling amendments than a chemical.

The way I bill out fert apps is to take the cost per lb and figure out how many lbs I am going to use on a property. I then charge my hourly to apply it and my usual material markup on the product. For the labor portion i bill down to the minute starting from the second i put my truck in park till the second i put it in drive to leave. If you cannot get a good measure of the square footage then bring a bathroom scale with you and weigh the bag after you apply. This will give you an number so that you can backsolve for the square footage.

I would avoid coming up with quick ways to price it for two reasons. Not all fert apps cost the same (figure out the exact price per lb for each kind). A straight fert obviously costs less than an app+ pre-emergent etc. Also lets say you figure a job takes 20lbs. You lay down the material and your calibration is off on your spreader or you just estimated wrong and you end up putting down 25lbs. That extra 5 lbs may seem like nothing but 5 lbs over 10 jobs is an extra bag. times that by 5 apps a year and already you have lost 5 bags of fert.

then the way you make more money is to get a bunch of houses close together, buy fert by the pallet. You can also put in a minimum charge or round up to the nearest full bag for billing. You can do your apps right after mowing to save an extra trip to the property. I know another guy that charges a straight fee per lb of fert applied because then it is to his advantage to apply it as quickly as possible.

In regards to the IPM/Site sustainability issues, just like with every other green issue we will not have everyone on board until people come up with a way to make more money on organics. Someone brought this up before, but to those who say that fert prices going up is going to hurt them, they need to switch to a % based mark-up. For example if a material costs me $10 and i bill the customer at 150%, i just made $5 mark-up. If the price goes up to $20 each and I still charge my customers 150% then I bill it for $30. I just made $10!. Prices going up helps me. If prices get out of control then I might have to drop my percentage a little, but as LCOs we should not have to take a hit because of rising fert prices.... pass it along to the customer.

Also instead of trying to price yourself with everyone else, you should try to justify having a higher price. I have made a lot of sells to customers who I was able to justify my higher price to. I apply my fert 2 ways at half the rate (better coverage), I apply it early in the morning, water it in, I time my apps with the state co-op extension, I help my customers to get their soil to the point where the ferts are most effective.

Someone wants to fight your price let them drive by the lawns you care for and see the difference...

[SpringHillTnLandscaping]

What are you using for grubs?

www.LandscapeNashville.com

[fishpilot]

50# costs you 50 bucks this is just for fertilizing.......weed/feed is a different story.....1 bag of material alone is right at 50.00 and depending on brand only covers 10k to 15k....maximize your profits and show your customer results!

[SpringHillTnLandscaping]

When are you going to Spring Fertilize?

www.LandscapeNashville.com

[fishpilot]

Good question.........My plan is to start ASAP as soon as I get the proper conditions...problem is..I need to be everywhere at the same time. Oh well.

We are planning an early Spring treatment (now) and a late May treatment depending on forecast weather. Last year mede our lives tough, huh. We can't just look at the calendar anymore.

[millenium_123]

That is a low ball price if ever I saw one. cost of fert (as a low volume buyer) is about $2.00/1k. It's gonna go up some more too. At $30, you would do a 6k property? That's nuts. Your material cost alone would be $12, and figure it could go as high as $18 soon. Gentlemen, please, do some homework! Get some recent prices!

WHOOPS, haven't been on here in a while. The $10 price is just to spread out the fertilizer, like a five min. job. Most of the time my customers already have their own fertilizer.

[millenium_123]

Apparently I need to charge more. As for lawn pricing, I have been told I'm one of the cheapest in the area. I charge about $30 for the "average" yard. Takes me about 45 mins on most lawns and I'm out. Will be charging more this year, I think gas will probly go over $4 per gallon. Its already at $3.15!!

I agree with what someone wrote earlier that this will be a weedout year.

[SpringHillTnLandscaping]

I have worked with yards full of clay and spread a thin layer of all organic compost over a great fescue seed. I have had a great results. Has anyone else used this method of adding organic matter while fertilizing and adding beneficial micro organisms?

www.Landscapenashville.com

[FERT-TEK]

I charge at least $5 / 1000 sq ft. yard. with a min. of $30.

I hope that is for each application which would equal $25/1000sf for a 5 application program.

I am charging between $45.00 to $55.00 per 1000 sf for my 5 application package depending on the customer, the drive time and turf conditions ie. lots of weeds crab grass, difficult terrain and customer expectations.

I offer a premium program using Scotts, and Lebanon products with Merit and Dimension ai to everyone but some customers demand more than most and require more service which they pay for indirectly.

Spring Hill, YOU MUST KNOW YOUR COSTS, NOT MINE

[phasthound]

I have worked with yards full of clay and spread a thin layer of all organic compost over a great fescue seed. I have had a great results. Has anyone else used this method of adding organic matter while fertilizing and adding beneficial micro organisms?

www.Landscapenashville.com

Hell yeah! This is a no brainer to anyone who has done this. It also works with sandy soils. Good job Spring Hill!!
There is no substitute for organic matter.

[RigglePLC]

Good comments Whitey and Badger,

I imagine you are busy making green beer.

May I suggest this. Your lawns are small. The main cost is in the trip and the labor to apply the product. You can afford more expensive fertilizer. Why not go with one of the top-quality types of slow release? Such as IBDU. Very long lasting, releases a little each time it rains--so almost no leaching. Superior to sulfer coat and superior to conventional slow release, like various forms of methylene urea.

I think the main brand name is Par-Ex.

And if you can find a slow release source of potash--that would be even better. Otherwise postash is water soluble and disappears quickly if watered heavily.

[BUCKEYE MOWING]

Hell yeah! This is a no brainer to anyone who has done this. It also works with sandy soils. Good job Spring Hill!!
There is no substitute for organic matter.

Comtill ..is your friend...the neighbors might not like you for a day or two ..but your customer will love you ! The stuff is black gold for helping a yard and establishing seed.

[FERT-TEK]

I think the main brand name is Par-Ex.

And if you can find a slow release source of potash--that would be even better. Otherwise postash is water soluble and disappears quickly if watered heavily.[/QUOTE]

I would also suggest he look into Mesa technology from Lebanon

MESA — proprietary ammonium sulfate and methylene urea
For years, attempts have been made to control the release of fertilizer nutrients by coating them with inert plastic coatings. Unfortunately, these coatings add no agronomic value to the soil and are still widely used by other brands of fertilizer. Mesa, which is a unique, patented nitrogen source that combines the color response benefits of ammonium sulfate with the staying power of Meth-Ex 40 methylene urea complex in a single homogenous granule.

MESA provides:

Quick response and green-up, generally within 2 days from the ammonium sulfate
Long lasting feeding from the Meth-Ex 40
Dark green color from ammonium sulfate
No excess growth, because of the slow release properties of Meth-Ex 40
Consistent, safe and economical results
On the guaranteed analysis nutrient source listing, MESA is listed as ammonium sulfate, urea, and methylene urea.

[ffemtmcd]

Fert-tek - yes, that is $5/1000 each time I apply, and with a 7000 sq ft minimum price base. That's also my low end program. So that's $35 / app.

[Whitey4]

Good comments Whitey and Badger,

I imagine you are busy making green beer.

May I suggest this. Your lawns are small. The main cost is in the trip and the labor to apply the product. You can afford more expensive fertilizer. Why not go with one of the top-quality types of slow release? Such as IBDU. Very long lasting, releases a little each time it rains--so almost no leaching. Superior to sulfer coat and superior to conventional slow release, like various forms of methylene urea.

I think the main brand name is Par-Ex.

And if you can find a slow release source of potash--that would be even better. Otherwise postash is water soluble and disappears quickly if watered heavily.

Riggle, as you know, I am new to this.... and I've looked at the Lebanon w/Mesa too. I want to do a combo app with Pre-M, and so far don't have a local supplier that can do that w/Mesa, but I will ask my guy. The Lebanon w/Mesa he carries is a 25-2-5. Too much N for my 2nd, 3rd and 4th apps. I'll talk to him about how fast that Lebanon releases. I'm still at the lower end of the learning bell curve with this stuff.

Being a low volume guy, I pretty much have to pick what he carries, as opposed to placing larger special order type stuff.

Green beer? naw, that's for the amatuer brewers. Badger likes a nice imperial stout or robust porter with her corned beef and colcannon. Talk about chemistry.... the reason Ireland is famous for stouts is because of the limestone filtered water. With their water chemistry, they can't brew a pilsner. England did IPA's because of the water supply. But, the chemistry and history of beer styles is a bit off topic! Don't get me started on talking about brewing at home! I'm a maniac!

[FERT-TEK]

The Lebanon products that have MESA as it release verry slow. Check below for everything you want to know about MESA (copy and pasted from Lebanons website)

Look for MESA in the following LebanonTurf products:
19-0-19 62% MESA 3% Fe SOP
20-0-10 40% MESA 1% Fe SOP
25-2-5 51% MESA 1% Fe MOP
32-3-6 31% MESA 2% Fe MOP
For a complete list of products containing MESA, visit our website at
www.LebanonTurf.com.
Iowa State University
Excellent color and reduced clipping yields....
TREATMENT Clippings Quality
Urea 14.8 7.7
Am Sulfate 15.8 7.5
MESA™ 13.4 7.6
SCU 24.2 7.7
IBDU® 17.9 7.3
Nitroform® 8.2 6.1
Nutralene® 10.8 7.4
Scott’s MU 3.2 7.7
Check 3.2 4.5
MESA consistently produced excellent turf quality. When compared
to SCU and urea there was no significant difference in
quality. Additionally, MESA produced 45% fewer clippings.
For years, sulfur coated urea (SCU) and similar
products, have long been thought of as an effective
way to control the release of fertilizer nutrients.
Unfortunately, these coated-products have always
contained shortcomings: losing their slow-release
properties when cracked, the coating adding no agronomic
value to the soil, and their inability to break
down completely, leaving residual behind. Turf
managers always had to accept these problems and
deal with the consequences, until now.
LebanonTurf is proud to offer MESA, the first
nitrogen source to combine ammonium sulfate with
methylene urea in a single particle. MESA is a smarter
alternative to coated-products. Here’s why:
• The release of ammonium sulfate is effectively
controlled to provide consistent, brilliant turf color
• No artificial coatings means no residual is left
behind
• MESA is not subject to nutrient lock-off making it
a more consistent, reliable product
• No ‘flush-growth’ response after application
means less clippings and healthier turf
If you’re looking to put the problems associated with
SCU behind you, give MESA a try. It’s quick response
and excellent color makes it make it the safe, economical
choice for any turf manager.
For more information about products containing
MESA, see your local LebanonTurf distributor, visit
LebanonTurf.com, or call 1-800-233-0628 today.
How can something that works
so fast.....last so long?

[SpringHillTnLandscaping]

I am going to look for it and read more about this line of procucts. Thanks

www.LandscapeNashville.com

[ffemtmcd]

[QUOTE=SpringHillTnLandscaping;2166993]I have worked with yards full of clay and spread a thin layer of all organic compost over a great fescue seed.

How did you apply the compost?? Spreader? and at what rate - I've thought about doing this very thing in my yard but wasn't sure of the best method.

[SpringHillTnLandscaping]

The last time we did this we had about 11/4 acre and we used 40 yards. I am in the middle of working today and just had a minute to reply so I don't have my formula with me but I guess you could divide that out somehow. It looks in my mind about 1" deep across the whole property. If the compost is not aged it could burn the seed.
So the important things to remember are aged compost, and runoff concerns. You must put something like straw bails or silk screen to prevent fertilizer run off because there are laws to obey about run off.

Is the property sloped? If you aerate first like I did you can get the compost to stay in place through most conditions. I also seeded in a faster growing seed just to help it stay and establish, I used rye and it burned off when it got warm but it held the compost nicely.

www.LandscapeNashville.com

[alpine627]

I understand the pricing 5/1000 sqft. but some of the properties I have measured are
around an acre. Even @ 3/1000 sqft. comes to 130.68 per app. are people paying this?
For say 5 app. program