Florida Tree Hugger's Ban Fertilizer

[Ric]

Yo

The Town of North Port, Florida has passed a Law effective now.

No Nitrogen or Phosphate Fertilizer of any kind may be applied between June 1st and Sept 30 to any turf.

I guess it is time to go in the plastic turf business:dizzy:

PS. I have no accounts in the city of North Port but look for the idiots to start a domino effect.

[Whitey4]

The idiots will repeal it when their chit goes brown.



I hope.

[tamadrummer]

That is the way of the world now. Just ban it and make more laws.

On another note, Sta-green (The stuff a lot of guys here bought pallets of because Lowe's blew it out) has changed its formulation to not include any Phosphates.

I grabbed a few of the left over bags of weed/feed for $3.00 a bag and I will use them in my yard for the next couple of years in the fall and early spring.

Anyway, I wonder if they dropped the phosphate because of these laws or because they know we don't really need it here?

Ric,

Have you used just K in the heat of summer? There is a nursery that sells a 0-0-8 with micros for summer use.

[humble1]

what about organics are they banned or does it specify synthetic fert. I would just apply corn meal and some of the other meals as a source of N and then use control products and charge big bucks.

[Greg Amann]

Absolutely nuts!

There are many other counties looking at doing this throughout the state.

I can see staying off of the phosphorus applications as most areas in our state have sufficient amounts in the soil occuring naturally. Our regular turf program is phosphorus free.

I guess they will be able to throw out a good portion of the HOA's by-laws related to keeping up your St. Augustine lawns, since most of the lawns will go to crap with NO nitrogen for 4 months.

Hope the wacko's stay out of our area of the state.

[wooley99]

At a FL Roundup license class in Oct. the extension agent and Ag inspector were talking about upcoming state requirements for limiting N and/or P and application metering/documentation of rates per 1000. I did a search of the state sites at the time but didn't come up with much.

[ted putnam]

what about organics are they banned or does it specify synthetic fert. I would just apply corn meal and some of the other meals as a source of N and then use control products and charge big bucks.

Good idea. I don't care where customers live. They still want to keep up with the Jones's. Hey Ric, Start your own "Domino effect" and clean up on new aacounts

[Whitey4]

Roc said "of any kind". That by definition would include corn gluten meal. Worm castings. I wonder it there is a loophole though. Who is going to know if you bring in some top dressing that has fert in it? Would treated top dressing be considered a fertilizer?

[Ric]

Roc said "of any kind". That by definition would include corn gluten meal. Worm castings. I wonder it there is a loophole though. Who is going to know if you bring in some top dressing that has fert in it? Would treated top dressing be considered a fertilizer?

Whitey

Unlike many people here, You can Read and Understand:clapping:

Yes all Forms of N & P. BTW that includes the Tree Hugger Junk for those too foolish to understand that elements are elements no matter what form they take.

Talking with the state employee who told e about the ban, He doesnt agree with it and said he and the U of F fought with the City of North Port to make it a more realist law. He also said St Johns County has a similar law and can't enforce it. But North Port has always been a Up Tight Community and is the only Interstate Hwy Speed trap in the country list by the AAA. To cut grass in North Port you need only a Occupational license for $ 17.00. But to trim Shrubs you need a City license for $100.00 and Workman's comp and liability insurance as well as their test for a certificate from them. Needless to say no one wants to do work there legally and pay the $100.00. In the case of Pesticide Companies they can not over ride the state and charge a license fee. They do request that Pesticide Companies register with them and I have basically told them to pound salt. They have more stupid laws than a Christmas Turkey and I try and stay away from that town like the plague.

[gregory]

You got one hell of a county up there ric..some people have there head in there ass...

[Ric]

You got one hell of a county up there ric..some people have there head in there ass...

Gregory

North Port is exactly that NORTH of me. I wouldn't live there for all the tea in China. BTW Chinese Tea will be the next new monetary standard, Be sure to stock up now at WalMart.

[ICT Bill]

The fertilizer companies have done it to themselves by marketing to Harry Homeowner that could not give a rats A$$ how much fertilizer he is putting down.
Fertilizer cost a lot of money for lawn companies, do you think a lawn service is going to spread ferts around until the hopper is empty like HH, NO. Lawn care companies are typically very informed and respectful of what they are doing, it is the TONS of fertilizers that HH is spreading that is has become the issue.
So how does a municipality stop HH from going to Lowes and getting a bag of fertilizer and spreading it all over the place, they regulate it, pass laws and fine 'em if caught.
It is the fertilizer companies that have done this by trying to sell as many bags of ferts that they can without informing the public that, too much of a good thing is too much.

Whether you like it or not there is a tidalwave of legislation coming in the next couple of years to regulate fertilizers and pesticides.

[Elden]

Here is the actual ordinance

http://www.cityofnorthport.com/news/uploads/uploads/Ordinance%20No.%2007-45.pdf

sorry you will have to copy and paste

I read it. It sounds like a money making opportunity to me. It keeps home owners from poluting the waterways, gives professionals an opportunity to show that what they do is not just putting out some stuff to make customers yards look green. It also clearly stated that it will not interfere w/ existing contracts in section 6, and allows you to fertilize new landscapes. It will probly make some home owners not want to do it themselves for fear of doing it worng and getting fined. Thus you guys in south Florida should be able to capitalize on the situation. And when I read about the 6 foot low maint., I heard some CHA-CHINGS in my head. You could market water gardens w/ moisture loving plants. That would look alot better than some St. Aug. growing to 2 ft tall.

You mentioned earlier that all of the grass will be dead. It would be a sad thing if ya'lls turf cant go 4 months w/out having a fertilizing. Grass shouldn't be growing at its best that time of year anyway. If you force it to you will cause other problems. Take it for what it is, "Best Management Practices", not "What Ever I Feel Like Doing Practices"

Get ahead of the game. Get your "Best Management Practices" certificate (greenindustries.org) ( no I don't work for them ) I almost hope they do it here to run the illegals and low-baller know nothings out of the business.

[Elden]

My bad you won't have to copy and paste. The link did not show when I was typing the message.

[Ric]

Elden

What you don't understand is North Port is a working class Community with mostly Bahia & Weeds for lawns. It is no where water of any kind except drainage ditches. The northern most end does boarder on the Makai River but there is mostly wet lands that boarder the river.

The big money making opportunity is mow & Go and Fire Ant control at low ball prices.

Good laws are those that control in acceptable manner and gain complaisance's by the people because they understand a need for said laws. This law doesn't fit that category

[Whitey4]

In a somewhat related note... just got a newsletter thingy from my water district. Of the 8 wells in this district, 4 got shut down last year die to excessive nitrate levels. I live in the county next to Suffolk, the one that just prohibted any ferts between Oct 1 and March 15, effective in 2009. I can see a time when fertilizer becomes restricted here.... no longer available at retail to home owners. Sandy loam, high water tables, and aquafers are not a good combo.

[humble1]

Roc said "of any kind". That by definition would include corn gluten meal. Worm castings. I wonder it there is a loophole though. Who is going to know if you bring in some top dressing that has fert in it? Would treated top dressing be considered a fertilizer?

okay maybe i should have been more clear with my point. oh by the way i understand fert is fert ric--

Not sure if i wrote corn gluten meal, but i was refering straight feed meals.
You can buy corn meal or other meals at a feed store for animals. You would apply it as a "organic soil amendment" although it has a certain NPK you would be applying bags "of feed meal" as a soil amendment, just so happens that you get the added benefit of NPK just not advertised as such.

[Elden]

Ric, considering the circumstance it does seem a bit off, but it doesn't seem like they are over regulating. They just want them to follow the BMP's.

Humble, what you are suggesting would be illegal not only there but in all of Fl. Fl Dep. of Ag. required that all "Fertilizers" have a guaranteed analysis. That would include organic, syntetic, even compost has to have it. By the ordinacne if it has a number in the nitogen or phosphorus column you have to abide by the ordinance.

If I lived there I would petition to have the definition of fertilizer clearified. It is too broad, like I said it even would cover compost. I can't see it in the ordinance but have heard that if you have a soil test done showing a lack of P in the soil you can apply, per recommendations, but like I said I don't see that in there.

[bug-guy]

ric
have you seen this?

http://consensus.fsu.edu/Fertilizer-Task-Force/pdfs2/Fertilizer_Task_Force_Final_Report11408-3.pdf

some are trying to get this recommendation passed as law and want it to super-cede all county laws. people in the industry feel that the state recommendations are based on fact while counties are based on popular opinion and what sounds right.

[Ric]

ric
have you seen this?

http://consensus.fsu.edu/Fertilizer-Task-Force/pdfs2/Fertilizer_Task_Force_Final_Report11408-3.pdf

some are trying to get this recommendation passed as law and want it to super-cede all county laws. people in the industry feel that the state recommendations are based on fact while counties are based on popular opinion and what sounds right.

Bug Guy

Yes the Bureau of Compliances Chapter 487 Regulates Fert and Seed and I was aware of the new laws being written But I have not seen it until now. My real complaint is the Idiots of North Port Florida who have Regulated the time you may use the bathroom and everything else. I have customer North and South of them, but I will not service accounts in North Port and never have.


Humble

Fert is not Fert, there are many different types of Fertilizer. Do a Search Here under my Name and a Thread titled "NITROGEN" you may just learn something. Corn meal is great when made into Cornbread but it is not going in my Fert program. I sold my 5 ton truck and fork lift, So I no longer have the Equipment to apply Corn even if I wanted too.

[americanlawn]

Yo

The Town of North Port, Florida has passed a Law effective now.

No Nitrogen or Phosphate Fertilizer of any kind may be applied between June 1st and Sept 30 to any turf.

I guess it is time to go in the plastic turf business:dizzy:

PS. I have no accounts in the city of North Port but look for the idiots to start a domino effect.

That sucks. I was offered my choice of five ChemLawn branches to start up "ChemScape" back in the early 80's. Two of which were in Florida. Back then, the Florida markets were designed for five tree/shrub feedings per year (due to light soils).

Seems times have changed?

I'm guessing Florida is concerned about leaching of nutrients???

[cantoo]

Whitey4, so if you water your lawn from thise wells do you have to pay for the water? Higher nitrate levels would cost more? Might be cheaper than fert. :canadaflag:

[Whitey4]

Whitey4, so if you water your lawn from thise wells do you have to pay for the water? Higher nitrate levels would cost more? Might be cheaper than fert. :canadaflag:

LOL.... yeah, not so good to brew beer with, however, which is something you should be able to understand! :usflag: Should be fine for a hockey rink though!

Kidding aside, my area is a hotbed for restrictions and regs with the speed at which materials leach. They found Merit in the wells just 3 1/2 years after it was introduced, but fortunately, instead of prohibiting it, they restricted it instead. It's the homeowners, and Scotts.... throwing all sorts of nitro at grass all year long. Soon, I expect soil drenchings to be illegal too. Every year, we lose another tool.

[americanlawn]

It's looking like to me that............this thread has little to do with nutrients or experience. Gotta go now. Been there, done that.

[Whitey4]

It's looking like to me that............this thread has little to do with nutrients or experience. Gotta go now. Been there, done that.

Huh? Having a bad day?

[cantoo]

We're looking at some Ontario wide pesticide bans very soon. The pros are saying to stop the homeowners from being able to do their own lawns. I have guys ask me all the time how they should mix their round up or Killex from TSC. I tell them they have to calibrate their sprayer to get the proper mix, that's when they say you don't have to be a dink about it. They have no idea what they are doing so they guess then double it to get it good and dead. I try to tell them you can't kill the weed twice as dead.
My thinking is we (licenced people) don't want to waste money or time so we use the minimum amount that will do the job required. I have a friend at work that used 6 bags of fert on his 4000 square foot lawn. The thing must have been pure white. I suggest he use 46-0-0 next time, it's cheaper that the stuff he got from TSC. Then I tried to expalin to him what that amount of fert would do to the lawn. His property has a small stream running thru it, wonder how the fish are doing.

[Whitey4]

We're looking at some Ontario wide pesticide bans very soon. The pros are saying to stop the homeowners from being able to do their own lawns. I have guys ask me all the time how they should mix their round up or Killex from TSC. I tell them they have to calibrate their sprayer to get the proper mix, that's when they say you don't have to be a dink about it. They have no idea what they are doing so they guess then double it to get it good and dead. I try to tell them you can't kill the weed twice as dead.
My thinking is we (licenced people) don't want to waste money or time so we use the minimum amount that will do the job required. I have a friend at work that used 6 bags of fert on his 4000 square foot lawn. The thing must have been pure white. I suggest he use 46-0-0 next time, it's cheaper that the stuff he got from TSC. Then I tried to expalin to him what that amount of fert would do to the lawn. His property has a small stream running thru it, wonder how the fish are doing.

You know, I wonder if the best way to resolve this is to tighten the standards for getting certified, and restricting everything. I think that is better than restricting fert apps by calander dates. The home owners will just put down more! I think Scotts 4 step is like 5 lbs of N a year... anything more than 3 here is too much. It just leaches. The few small lakes and streams we have are infested with pest weeds and algae. Only the spring fed waters are healthy... the runoff waters are in bad shape.

[Elden]

That would never happen Whitey. It would be called discrimination against people doing work for their own self. Home owners would say that all the big spray companys were trying to make it that way so the H.O. would have to pay some one to do the work. What they did in North Port might be a little excessive, but I think it's a half step in the right direction. I think if they made the H.O. liable for improper use, and slap a few hefty fines on some folks and see to it that it gets in the news and circulated that could help. For that to happen we would need alot more inspectors than we have now

[rcreech]

It's looking like to me that............this thread has little to do with nutrients or experience. Gotta go now. Been there, done that.

C'mon Whitey.....Larry owed you that one! :laugh:

[Whitey4]

C'mon Whitey.....Larry owed you that one! :laugh:

Rodney.... nope. He send the first cannon ball over my bow first! :laugh:

[PHS]

The few small lakes and streams we have are infested with pest weeds and algae. Only the spring fed waters are healthy... the runoff waters are in bad shape.

Those streams may be polluted, I don't know about those specific cases. If they are they need to be cleaned up. But I can say from having spent a lot of time wading in non-polluted trout streams around the country that the presence of aquatic plants can be a normal part of a healthy streams' ecosystem. You can also have a situation where non-native aquatic plants get introduced into a waterway and completely take-over causing major problems but that's not related to water quality either.

[Ric]

Bug Guy

Thanks for the Link, I have down loaded the file but not had time to really study it. I do see only one reference to application mode at the top of page 26. They speak only of granular application. I have not found any reference that says Liquid Fert application in ban But other references do say insoluble form of Nitrogen must be used.

A while back we all discussed the coming of this proposed law. At that time I said the days of Spray trucks were limited. I think the Big Box companies like TG will be the hardest hit because of there bulk liquid operation. Look for increased numbers of ride on spreaders in the market place. We will still be spraying, just not as much as we presently do. Material cost will increase with more uses of Combination products. With the increasing cost of Fertilizer I see lower margins and less customers willing to spend disposable income on green grass.

Agriculture has a Big Lobby with the state and they were left out of this proposed law. However I feel the Tree hugger will lobby hard to get it passed as written if not with more teeth. Speaking of teeth I see it will be under 482 instead of 487 which now regulates Fert & Seed.

BTW I also see this proposed law does not over ride local laws. Therefore the North Port Fertilizer Law will still be in effect once it passes.

[humble1]

Ric, considering the circumstance it does seem a bit off, but it doesn't seem like they are over regulating. They just want them to follow the BMP's.

Humble, what you are suggesting would be illegal not only there but in all of Fl. Fl Dep. of Ag. required that all "Fertilizers" have a guaranteed analysis. That would include organic, syntetic, even compost has to have it. By the ordinacne if it has a number in the nitogen or phosphorus column you have to abide by the ordinance.

If I lived there I would petition to have the definition of fertilizer clearified. It is too broad, like I said it even would cover compost. I can't see it in the ordinance but have heard that if you have a soil test done showing a lack of P in the soil you can apply, per recommendations, but like I said I don't see that in there.

Once again i am saying use feed meal as a soil amendment, you are not applying fertilizer, i get it fert in any way is illegal. However a soil amendment is beneficial to the plant, if you buy a bag at a feed store and put it down it is labeled as a feed meal. Just so happens that if you apply it to the lawn it just happens to have a small number of NPK. Corn meal is the same as corn gluten meal just different packaging, different application

[humble1]

Humble

Fert is not Fert, there are many different types of Fertilizer. Do a Search Here under my Name and a Thread titled "NITROGEN" you may just learn something. Corn meal is great when made into Cornbread but it is not going in my Fert program. I sold my 5 ton truck and fork lift, So I no longer have the Equipment to apply Corn even if I wanted too.

Your quote "Yes all Forms of N & P. BTW that includes the Tree Hugger Junk for those too foolish to understand that elements are elements no matter what form they take." You did say this earlier now your saying otherwise?

I was simply sugesting an alternative that would allow a loop hole to stay in buisness if one were to have clients in that town. IMO, of course Ric you need to agree there is always more than one way to do things, I am simply sugesting a possible alternative, not saying my way is the only way, just a thought. O by the way, as I have read some of your threads this winter and gotten to see your points of view over the winter , I tend to value the opinion of some of the other guys here a little bit more than yours,so sorry if i would have to decline checking that thread on Nitrogen.

[Elden]

Humble, I understand what you are saying about putting out the organic material that has been purchased from a feed type store. How ever the problem arises in that as a licensed applicator in Fl it is required that any product you put out, for a paying customer, be registered through the state. If you are caught applying a product not properly labeled you will get fined. So it would have to have that guaranteed analysis, which would show N and/or P in the products you are suggesting like CGM, Alfalfa Meal, Compost. Even if you buy fertilizer (org. or syn.) in bulk it has to have that G.A.

[americanlawn]

Ric -- is the ban for tree feeding too? Reason I ask is cuz ChemScape's tree/shrub program in most Florida markets called for up to five root feedings per year. This was in the mid eighties. ChemLawn Corp said it was due to sandy soils. Reason I know: I was offered my choice of four markets (Louisville, KY, San Antonio, TX, and two in Florida) to start up their tree/shrub division in existing ChemLawn lawn care markets. I chose Texas. I'm guessing tree feeding in your area is restricted as well???

[humble1]

Humble, I understand what you are saying about putting out the organic material that has been purchased from a feed type store. How ever the problem arises in that as a licensed applicator in Fl it is required that any product you put out, for a paying customer, be registered through the state. If you are caught applying a product not properly labeled you will get fined. So it would have to have that guaranteed analysis, which would show N and/or P in the products you are suggesting like CGM, Alfalfa Meal, Compost. Even if you buy fertilizer (org. or syn.) in bulk it has to have that G.A.

We dont have to do GA on compost or other soil amendments seems crazy that you would need to do that.

[Ric]

Humble

True Elements are elements. However I prefer Elements in a more usable form. I am not interested in Buying a 5 ton truck or a Fork lift to apply the same elements I can get from a 50 lb bag and in a more usable form. I do apply and recommend everyone add Organic matter to Florida's sandy soil. However I recommend it in the form of compost not corn. I will leave the corn for powering Cars.

BTW I have had a change to read the Proposed law. I feel it is not all that bad of a law. I feel I can live with it easily. However I do have some questions about things not especially covered

[Hogjaw]

Yo

The Town of North Port, Florida has passed a Law effective now.

No Nitrogen or Phosphate Fertilizer of any kind may be applied between June 1st and Sept 30 to any turf.

I guess it is time to go in the plastic turf business:dizzy:

PS. I have no accounts in the city of North Port but look for the idiots to start a domino effect.

Interesting post............so far we have nothing like that to contend with. Vacationed in Daytona Beach this past summer and heard considerable talk about the turtle ladies there.......thought it was a joke at first.......but they are real. I guess everyone has to have something they believe in and stand for.

However, I wonder if some of the things are beneficial to society, environment. etc.........know what I mean?

Hope everything works out for your company.

[PHS]

We dont have to do GA on compost or other soil amendments seems crazy that you would need to do that.

That seems crazy but I think it's actually a good thing. In your case you're probably putting down good quality materials and trying to do the right thing so you don't need to be regulated. The problem arises when the quacks (or criminals) out there start spraying or spreading whatever cheap and/or contaminated materials they can get their hands on and start causing some real damage.

[bug-guy]

what states/feds need to do is restrict home owner or non certified/licensed applicators first.
the feds should have done that with durasban b-4 yanking off residential lawns all together.
M.H.O.
(and you know what the say about opinions)

[gregory]

what states/feds need to do is restrict home owner or non certified/licensed applicators first.
the feds should have done that with durasban b-4 yanking off residential lawns all together.
M.H.O.
(and you know what the say about opinions)

i agree with that to a certain degree i am just a home owner to me i have every right to buy fert and apply it...you can't restrict evrything from the home owner.if they restrict stuff like fert from the home owner should we restrict the avg joe or home owner from buying motor oil b/c he might chnage his on oil and does disp of it right? i know appling fert is alot of peoples buiness on here and if that was to happen you guys would make more money so if they do that where will it stop i am in the heavy duty trk repair/parts buiness they should do that.they should stop non cerfied people from repairing there own or replacing there own brakes...where does it stop?

[bug-guy]

you have a point but the analogy is off alittle there will always be people with dispose of products wrongly. homeowner or professional. but the proper analogy in this case would be a certified op has to adhere to label restrictions or be held accountable a home owner doesn't.
so the arguement would be
insecticides/ fert

professional use label rec.
home owner use alittle more(more is better right)

auto centers use rec filters and the proper amt of oil
would a home owner put an extra qt in???

[gregory]

very true i see your point to me more is not always better more could lead to more or different problems...

what about brake jobs we do brake jobs on 80k gvw trks we will change a drum where they will not or some other parts might be worn out they might not check where we will thats your family on the road along with mine a 80k lb truck doesn't stop that well with brand new brakes let alone with some one who doesn't know what the hell they are doing.hell it might be his first brake job but there are no laws or reg. about that to me there needs to be hell for all we know the guy in frt of you on the road driving that dump trk might have just done a brake job on it and last week he was selling pvc pipe at home depot remember that the next time one is behind you and stopping....but i do see your point......

[Whitey4]

i agree with that to a certain degree i am just a home owner to me i have every right to buy fert and apply it...you can't restrict evrything from the home owner.if they restrict stuff like fert from the home owner should we restrict the avg joe or home owner from buying motor oil b/c he might chnage his on oil and does disp of it right? i know appling fert is alot of peoples buiness on here and if that was to happen you guys would make more money so if they do that where will it stop i am in the heavy duty trk repair/parts buiness they should do that.they should stop non cerfied people from repairing there own or replacing there own brakes...where does it stop?


Where does it stop? Maybe when applying ANY fertilizer becomes illegal. Isn't more control over ferts better than a complete ban? The entire county next to me just made ferts illegal to apply from Nov 1 to March15, with farms and golf courses being excepted of course! So, it CAN happen, especially in my neck of the woods. I can easilly see turf fertilizer being restricted here across the board in a decade. That would be better than a ban.

[humble1]

what states/feds need to do is restrict home owner or non certified/licensed applicators first.
the feds should have done that with durasban b-4 yanking off residential lawns all together.
M.H.O.
(and you know what the say about opinions)

I couldnt agree more.
THIS would be where i would put the clapping smile face if we had one.:usflag:

[RigglePLC]

Lots of people want to restrict what other people do-that is what legislators love to do.

Misguided in Florida perhaps. How many people were killed by pesticides last year in Florida? How many were killed by alligators? How many were killed by pet dog attacks? In the US, more peole were killed by tigers than by pesticides last year. It would seem logical to attack the most important problem first.