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ted putnam
01-25-2008, 09:24 PM
While at my states turfgrass seminar earlier this week The U of A turfgrass Management Dept put on a class on how to calibrate ride on spreaders. Specifically the PG Magnum. They chose this one because their dept has one as a piece of equipment they use to make applications on plots at their research facility. They use it to apply dry products as well as liquid. And of course it is calibrated before any applications are made for scientific reasons. During the course of the presentation the spokesman made the comment that the machine only sprayed approx 7.5 ft wide. It spread dry material approx 11.5 ft wide. Both of these measurements varied to a degree depending on material used.(Liquid and/or Dry) I have the PG Ultra and one of the first things I noticed was this variance. I typically do not spread and spray simultaneously because of this (except when spot spraying). Can someone explain to me how it is possible to apply both liquid and dry at the same time without over applying or underapplying one or the other of the 2 materials used? :confused:

The spokesman was a Phd and he had 2 masters program students help him take measurements

rcreech
01-25-2008, 10:05 PM
While at my states turfgrass seminar earlier this week The U of A turfgrass Management Dept put on a class on how to calibrate ride on spreaders. Specifically the PG Magnum. They chose this one because their dept has one as a piece of equipment they use to make applications on plots at their research facility. They use it to apply dry products as well as liquid. And of course it is calibrated before any applications are made for scientific reasons. During the course of the presentation the spokesman made the comment that the machine only sprayed approx 7.5 ft wide. It spread dry material approx 11.5 ft wide. Both of these measurements varied to a degree depending on material used.(Liquid and/or Dry) I have the PG Ultra and one of the first things I noticed was this variance. I typically do not spread and spray simultaneously because of this (except when spot spraying). Can someone explain to me how it is possible to apply both liquid and dry at the same time without over applying or underapplying one or the other of the 2 materials used? :confused:

The spokesman was a Phd and he had 2 masters program students help him take measurements


Ted,

I ALWAYS do my dry and liquid in 1 pass!

You can adjust the spray width of the Magnum very easily by changing the angle of the tip. Thank God the he gave us common sense instead of a PHD behind our name huh! :laugh:

When I am on a big job in the wide open with no wind...I can get about 13 ft out of my PG Magnum.

Hope this helps!

SIDE NOTE:

There are thousands of these machines out here, so I am surprised they couldn't figure out how to fix the spray width. That is scary! If that were the case of the spray width being narrow compared to the dry, wouldn't one think that there would be big strips of weeds in everyones lawns that uses a PG?

If they are going to show how to calibrate a machine and can't figure that out...they should have invited someone from PG to come and show them how to do it. :laugh:

Hope this helps!

ted putnam
01-25-2008, 10:21 PM
Rodney,
When spraying is only one floodjet nozzle spraying at a time or are there 2? I can't remember exactly the setup but it seems to me they said only one nozzle was working in high gear. They did warn that the nozzles were easily knocked out of adjustment. I know for a fact with my Ultra( and I have adjusted every way imagineable) it does not spray and spread the same width. They both give even apps individually but they wouldn't together. I just sold 3 new accts today and gave an estimate for 6.5 acres of turf at a Hospital so maybe...the goal is anyway...add another PG to my equipment Army I am building....we'll see:weightlifter:

rcreech
01-25-2008, 10:32 PM
Rodney,
When spraying is only one floodjet nozzle spraying at a time or are there 2? I can't remember exactly the setup but it seems to me they said only one nozzle was working in high gear. They did warn that the nozzles were easily knocked out of adjustment. I know for a fact with my Ultra( and I have adjusted every way imagineable) it does not spray and spread the same width. They both give even apps individually but they wouldn't together. I just sold 3 new accts today and gave an estimate for 6.5 acres of turf at a Hospital so maybe...the goal is anyway...add another PG to my equipment Army I am building....we'll see:weightlifter:

You only use one tip at a time. I only use "high" gear on my machine but use both the wide and trim.

There are a total of four tips on the machine

1) High gear - wide pattern
2) Low gear - wide pattern
3) High gear - narrow pattern (trim)
4) Low gear - narrow pattern (trim)

The tip is very easy to adjust and unless you hit something (like sticks or tall grass etc) then it will stay adjusted.

I haven't had any problems with my spray pattern on my PG Mag.

Congrats on your new work! I think you would love the PG Mag as it is awesome!

Good Luck!

MStine315
01-25-2008, 10:40 PM
I know for a fact with my Ultra( and I have adjusted every way imagineable) it does not spray and spread the same width.

You SPREAD back to your wheel tracks(100% overlap), and SPRAY 1/2 that width(0% overlap). In other words, your spread pattern is 2X your spray pattern.

rcreech
01-25-2008, 10:45 PM
You SPREAD back to your wheel tracks(100% overlap), and SPRAY 1/2 that width(0% overlap). In other words, your spread pattern is 2X your spray pattern.

Good point...but I still run my tip on about a 30 degree angle (unless it is windy) so I get a good amount of "overlap".

I have never had any problems with skips even if I drive a little wide as if it is hard to see.

ted putnam
01-25-2008, 10:51 PM
I need to correct myself on that first post also. They did say that it sprayed wider than the 7.5 feet but the part beyond that was not part of the even distribution of the spray pattern...in other words random droplets beyond the main body of the spray pattern of 7.5 ft. In their evaluation , they said it was an excellent piece of equipment but it was not everything the PG people claim it to be. At the trade show I also saw a new ride on being manufactured by a company called GNC Industries. Very much like the Z-spray. Almost identical from what I could see. You could spray with it from the front or a 12 ft boom on the back. I'm still leaning toward the PG for my next ride on purchase!

MStine315
01-26-2008, 07:09 AM
Good point...but I still run my tip on about a 30 degree angle (unless it is windy) so I get a good amount of "overlap".

I know. I was trying to get my point across when I said "0%" overlap. In reality the spray pattern does overlap, what?, 6" to a foot to prevent skips and misses. We run our tips up a little, too. I still like the ultra spray tip set up better than the Magnum, but that's an argument for another thread.

LwnmwrMan22
01-26-2008, 07:33 AM
You SPREAD back to your wheel tracks(100% overlap), and SPRAY 1/2 that width(0% overlap). In other words, your spread pattern is 2X your spray pattern.

This is the correct response. You run your dry apps at a reduced rate, because you're going to overlap them to get an even coverage with the liquid.

Your liquid apps should look like over lapping fans, and of course, you're not going to get even coverage on the outside edges, because you overlap the next time and it'll even itself out.

Personally, unless it's a large open area, I usually do my apps seperately. Too much hassle driving, steering, opening the liquid, shutting down the deflector, drinking pop, answering the phone, listening to the radio all at one time.

If it's a smaller commercial / residential lot, I find it doesn't take too much extra time to just do each app seperate.

ted putnam
01-26-2008, 08:52 AM
This is the correct response. You run your dry apps at a reduced rate, because you're going to overlap them to get an even coverage with the liquid.

Your liquid apps should look like over lapping fans, and of course, you're not going to get even coverage on the outside edges, because you overlap the next time and it'll even itself out.

Personally, unless it's a large open area, I usually do my apps seperately. Too much hassle driving, steering, opening the liquid, shutting down the deflector, drinking pop, answering the phone, listening to the radio all at one time.

If it's a smaller commercial / residential lot, I find it doesn't take too much extra time to just do each app seperate.

:laugh::laugh: That's basically the attitude I've taken with my Ultra...good advice. Thanks

RigglePLC
01-26-2008, 11:05 AM
Ted you are so right--and kudos to the U of Arkansas people for throwing a little light on this matter.

I have an older Perma Green Ultra. It sprays about 30 inches from the wheel on the left and 36 inches on the right. Pictures are on an earlier thread somewhere. So machine is 36 wide, plus 36 right, plus 30 left=102 inches. Divide by 12=8.5 feet, the swath width (no overlap).

However I like to use a dry spread width of 11 feet, measured center to center, (that is 7 feet wheel track to wheel track. I am 2.5 feet short.

I think my spray pressure is adequate--I get total of about 80 ounces per minute when battery is fully charged or throttle is wide open.

RigglePLC
01-26-2008, 11:31 AM
With the nozzles tipped up I sometimes get a gap in the center. So...it appears I have to recalibrate the dry product and reduce the wheel to wheel distance to 5.5 feet. (5.5 plus 3 feet is 8.5 feet.):cry:

I like to tinker if I have a few hours to spare. Who has tried the various fixes?
More pressure, using a bigger pump?
More voltage and pressure by bypassing voltage regulator?
More pressure by changing the pressure regulator valve?
More width by raising the nozzles to 18 inches high?
Turning nozzles outward and adding a third nozzle for the center?

I discovered I can improve the eveness of left and right spray distance by cutting off the right side valve slightly giving the left side more pressure. :)

ted putnam
01-26-2008, 12:37 PM
With the nozzles tipped up I sometimes get a gap in the center. So...it appears I have to recalibrate the dry product and reduce the wheel to wheel distance to 5.5 feet. (5.5 plus 3 feet is 8.5 feet.):cry:

I like to tinker if I have a few hours to spare. Who has tried the various fixes?
More pressure, using a bigger pump?
More voltage and pressure by bypassing voltage regulator?
More pressure by changing the pressure regulator valve?
More width by raising the nozzles to 18 inches high?
Turning nozzles outward and adding a third nozzle for the center?

I discovered I can improve the eveness of left and right spray distance by cutting off the right side valve slightly giving the left side more pressure. :)

That last statement makes me feel better and it's funny. I did the smae thing (pinching off) the valve slighty. I couldn't figure it out. I replaced diaphrams in the nozzle body, cleaned screens and tips. tweeked the tip adjustment and it still sprayed further to one side than the other. I finally gave up and shut the one valve slightly and it evened things up. I have thought about the next time I have to replace the pump, going with a slightly higher output pump instead of the original replacement like I did the last time. I don't want to sacrifice spray quality for distance though. If not careful I could see how it could be a real mess. Spray droplets being too fine because of increased pressure, more drift etc...

zimmatic
01-26-2008, 01:06 PM
To fix your problem with closing the second valve a bit. Make sure your hose from the discharge side of the pump to your valve manifolds is 1.5 to 2 times bigger, and then goes into the manifold in the center. The problem you are having as that there is only so much liquid that can be forced through a hose, by increasing the supply line and distribution in the center of you distribution manifold/valves this should solve your problem If you take a look at commercial sprayers only designed to spray you wont find an entire boom supplied by the same size hose throught the system. Or find the supply line that leaves the pump to the manifold/boom valves, it will be larger than the discharge side of the manifold/boom valves.

ted putnam
01-26-2008, 01:14 PM
To fix your problem with closing the second valve a bit. Make sure your hose from the discharge side of the pump to your valve manifolds is 1.5 to 2 times bigger, and then goes into the manifold in the center. The problem you are having as that there is only so much liquid that can be forced through a hose, by increasing the supply line and distribution in the center of you distribution manifold/valves this should solve your problem If you take a look at commercial sprayers only designed to spray you wont find an entire boom supplied by the same size hose throught the system. Or find the supply line that leaves the pump to the manifold/boom valves, it will be larger than the discharge side of the manifold/boom valves.

Makes sense... The hoses on my rig are 4 yrs old and it would be a good idea to replace them soon anyway. I will keep that in mind when the time comes. Thanks zimmatic.

RigglePLC
01-26-2008, 02:43 PM
Zinmmatic,
thanks for your comments. I see what you mean. It appears the tube coming out of the pump is bigger--maybe 3/8ths incide diameter. However, if I look closely at the flow path of the system--the right side is closer to the pump and its main pressure supply line. The remainder of the lines are 1/4 inch. There would be some friction losses due to the longer distance of travel when supplying the left side. Fluid has to travel about 72 inches to supply the right side and about 96 inches to supply the left.

Could this be corrected by changing the plumbing so that the main pressure supply line from the pump enters at the center--so that the flow path to the right and left side is equal in distance? Is the quarter inch tubing just too small?

I just tested my Permagreen Ultra. I disconnected temporarily the pressure regulater valve. The pressure regulator valve does not bypass any fluid when the spray valve or bottle fill valve are open. At the bottle fill valve I get about 20 ounces (of anti-freeze) in 15 seconds, about 80 ounces per minute. So changing the pressure regulator valve will not increase the pressure.

zimmatic
01-26-2008, 03:26 PM
You have it correct the distance from where the supply manifold is located to the distance the fluid has to travel to the nozzle, however in this case it shouldnt matter to terribly bad. I would say though it has more of an issue with the supply line from the pump to the manifold it should be larger. In order to keep the manifold controls in the same place just measure the two hoses that lead to the nozzle, take the longer of the two, and create a 2nd hose the same length for the short hose. This solution with larger hose between the pump and the manifolds should solve some problems since in theory the system is balanced.

ted putnam
01-26-2008, 04:18 PM
You have it correct the distance from where the supply manifold is located to the distance the fluid has to travel to the nozzle, however in this case it shouldnt matter to terribly bad. I would say though it has more of an issue with the supply line from the pump to the manifold it should be larger. In order to keep the manifold controls in the same place just measure the two hoses that lead to the nozzle, take the longer of the two, and create a 2nd hose the same length for the short hose. This solution with larger hose between the pump and the manifolds should solve some problems since in theory the system is balanced.

You and Riggle got me curious so I just went out and looked at mine...Let me get this straight. If we equal the length of the supply line between the left and right manifold this should even it up whether we increase the inside diameter of that supply line or not? I would think you would want to be careful increasing the diameter. Increasing it will give you more volume...but that increase in volume also brings with it a decrease in pressure.

zimmatic
01-26-2008, 04:42 PM
No that will not happen, your nozzle will only let out so much fluid at certain pressures. you could have a 10" hose connected to your nozzle and the hose has lets say 60 psi the nozzle will opperate within its flow chart range. I dont know your nozzle size so I cant look up the flow chart.
the main threat to fluid/sprayer design is friction.

If you equal the lines from the valve/manifold to the nozzles with the same sized hose, in theory there is the same amount of friction thus same volume/pressure within those area's. When I suggested that you increase the supply line from the pump to the vales/manifold It is in an effort to elimate friction, thus if you have minimal friction.

Think of it this way
if you have a pipe 1" in dia and the length of the pipe is 100' and you start at the begining with 60psi and 7gpm at the other end you will not have the same discrage or psi it was lost to friction.
so if you sprayer has the same size of hose throughout the enitre system from suction line to dischrage line you will have some psi and gpm friction losses. and not a balanced system.
In the ag feild they have booms that are 60' in length with only 3 valve manifolds the supply for the valves may be a 2'. The hose from the valve assembly to the center of the left boom may be 1" and the hose to the nozzles may be 1/2". they want the same pressure at the valve manifolds as the nozzle tips. Using my earlier example if it is all sized the same you may need 120psi in the begining, to achieve 60psi at the tip however, you may not have the gpm. since the pipe is to small to accomidate the 60' boom.
In short you can increase the size of the pipe, you will have minimal/ no friction lose on psi or gpm (thus added cost)
If you have a undersized hose the psi and gpm will all be messed up(thus poor spray distribution)

hope this helps

so again equal the lengths from the manifold to the nozzles and increase the supply line from the discharge side of the pump to the valve manifolds

RigglePLC
01-26-2008, 08:13 PM
Good explanation Zimmatic--you mean there is friction loss in the hose proportional to its length. And bigger hose has less friction loss.

Brr! Its cold out there. I measured my Permagreen Ultra. It is actually about 28 inches long, so about 20 inches to the front of the machine. And the solution traveling to the left side must cross to the left which is an extra distance of about 17 inches it must travel.

The instruction manual says each nozzle should deliver about 45 ounces per minute=total 90 ounces. I get 80 so I am 12 percent light to start.

I seems odd to me that the main supply hose travels to the front. Splits to send a hose to the left side and then both sides travel to the back of the machine where the flow enters the three way valves. Then the flow goes BACK to the front to either the white or the red nozzle as selected. Why not take the shortest path from the pump to the three way valves with the largest hose feasable, (taking care that the fluid travel path was the same distance in inches to each three-way valve.) An additional tee on the end would supply the bottle fill and pressure relief backflow to the tank.

RigglePLC
01-26-2008, 08:36 PM
And come on Larry,
what did you guys do in Des Moines to improve the coverage? Can you reach 48 inches out on each side? Three nozzles or two?