MYTH #2: Immigrant workers

[patron]

MYTH #2: Immigrant workers suppress the wages of American workers.
FACTS: The overwhelming majority of economists agree that immigrants increase the
economic productivity and thus the wages of natives.

A 2006 study by University of California, Davis, economist Giovanni Peri found that
because immigrant workers generally “complement”—rather than substitute for—native
workers in terms of their education and skills, immigration tends to increase the
productivity, and therefore the wages, of natives.

As a result of this “complementarity,” the White House Council of Economic Advisers
concluded in a 2007 report that roughly 90 percent of native-born workers experience
wage gains from immigration, which total between $30 billion and $80 billion per year.

[lawnman_scott]

who are the 90% that see increaced income? Business owners of those on the bottom of the wage scale? And is the study talking about legal, illegal, or all immigrants?

[AI Inc]

You can make a study or a survey come out anyway you want it to.

[PHS]

You can make a study or a survey come out anyway you want it to.


And while Davis is a top notch university it's also wildly liberal. In other words it wouldn't be a stretch to think there is an agenda being promoted :).

On the other hand may be completely correct but I would point out that there is a beneficial saturation point with immigration. Some immigration (legal) can have a net benefit to the economy but when allowed to increase uncontrollably it spells disaster especially with increasing entitlement programs.

[patron]

This was part of a pdf file called TOP 5 IMMIGRATION MYTHS OF THIS CAMPAIGN SEASON:
Not sure where I got but can email it if you post an address.

Grain of salt not included.

[Mike Fronczak]

It's pretty simple at least from a owners stand point. You put one "native" in charge of 3 "immigrants", the crew will be more productive than a crew of "natives" so owner can pay "native" more for supervising/translating. I do belive given the choice if the workers/work ethic was equal most companies would hire "natives", problem is there not equal. I have talked to I contractor who in his terms of his company has one "white boy", 3 gutamaens, he said they will out work a "white boy" any day of the week. He even had a female immigrent, said she was the best landscape bed detailer he's had. You have to remember, they can't drive, you have to arange for housing, languge barriers, etc. There is a lot more that goes into it than just hirinng a "native", that's why I say given the choice, most would hire "natives".

[patron]

I agree 100%
Guys like me all have a story of how you hit rock bottom, and figure going H2B can't be any worse than what I have to put up with locals.

[newbomb]

The rich "fat cats" set up Nafta, and looked the other way to let in illegals so big business could get cheap labor and the rich get richer.

[Grits]

I think that ball to the head must have rattled something loose.

[DavidR]

So is it myth # 3, 4, or 5 that talks about how many billions illegal aliens cost our education system? It is funny how so many people can find the bright spot to the whole illegal alien situation; guess it is much easier then actually trying to find a way to fix the problem.

Please provide a link, I would be interested to see the entire list.

[LawnTamer]

Please provide a link, I would be interested to see the entire list.

I googled "5 immigration myths" and checked 5 sites, these are the 5 myths on all the sites I checked, though they appear not to be the same as the original poster has.

from
http://www.ailf.org/ipc/policy_reports_2005_fivemyths.shtml

MYTH 1. Migration is Caused by Lack of Economic Development in Migrants’ Home Countries

*

International migrants do not originate in the world’s poorest nations, but in those that are developing and growing dynamically. The largest single source of U.S. immigrants, Mexico, is not a poor nation by global standards. Mexico has a one-trillion dollar economy, a per capita income of almost $9,000 (compared to $9,700 in Russia), a fully industrialized economy, a high level of urbanization, and an advanced life expectancy.

MYTH 2. Migration is Caused by Rapid Population Growth in Migrants’ Home Countries

*

The fertility rate in Mexico is about 2.3 children per woman, which is only slightly above “replacement” level. The highest fertility levels are generally observed in the Arab world and Sub-Saharan Africa, but these regions contribute few migrants to global streams.

MYTH 3. Migrants Move Mainly in Response to Differences in Wages

*

Households use international migration as a tool to overcome failed or missing markets for insurance, capital, and credit at home. For example, because Mexico has virtually no mortgage banking industry, a large share of the money earned by Mexican immigrants in the United States is channeled into the construction or purchase of homes in Mexico.

MYTH 4. Migrants Are Attracted to the United States by Generous Public Benefits

*

Immigrants are less likely than natives to use public services. While 66 percent of Mexican immigrants report the withholding of Social Security taxes from their paychecks and 62 percent say that employers withhold income taxes, only 10 percent say they have ever sent a child to U.S. public schools, 7 percent indicate they have received Supplemental Security Income, and 5 percent or less report ever using food stamps, welfare, or unemployment compensation.

MYTH 5. Most Immigrants Intend to Settle Permanently in the United States

*

Mexico-U.S. migration has historically been circular: 80 percent of Mexican immigrants report that they made no more than three trips to the United States and three quarters stayed less than two years.

[juspayme]

dont worry about the system. worry about yourself.

these bunk kids today are so lazy.

the mexicans are so poor they APPRECIATE the work so they can feed their famlies and put clothes on their little kids back.

bunk american kids jus want video games. dont wanna cut grass. their spoiled and wimps.

[NORTHMAN]

Someone has been into the Kool-Aid.I think illegal immigration is wrong,I'd send them back,I'd freeze legal immigration also.I'm sure there good people and hard workers,let them go be good people and hard workers in their country.Take America Back.

[M&SLawnCare]

The problem isn't immigrants working harder, its that they'll work for less. Its been proven that Americans are the MOST productive workers in the world. But when you want to pay them minimum wage, no kidding your going to get the bottom of the barrel lazy people. Illegals don't pay taxes, we do. Illegals don't pay rent/mortgages, its provided for them. Illegals don't pay for vehicles and transportation, its provided for them. Illegals can support their families in Mexico for much cheaper, its much more expensive for us to support our families here.


If the playing field was even these "statistics" would be drastically different.

[LawnTamer]

The problem isn't immigrants working harder, its that they'll work for less. Its been proven that Americans are the MOST productive workers in the world. But when you want to pay them minimum wage, no kidding your going to get the bottom of the barrel lazy people. Illegals don't pay taxes, we do. Illegals don't pay rent/mortgages, its provided for them. Illegals don't pay for vehicles and transportation, its provided for them. Illegals can support their families in Mexico for much cheaper, its much more expensive for us to support our families here.


If the playing field was even these "statistics" would be drastically different.

I don't even know where to start with that statement. Whether one is for or against immigrant labor, there is no point laboring under false premises and incorrect supposition. American workers are more productive because of the technology which surrounds us. A man on a 72" Super Z is going to be more productive than a man with a 21" Craftsman. Use the power of you own observations. As Patrick Henry said, "I have no lamp to light my way, but that of my own experience." I drive around and see "workers" all day. My crews and I actually joke about the term. Take road workers for example; we drive by them daily, how often are most of them standing around watching, or talking, guts hanging over their belts? All the time here. It makes me sick, because I am paying for it. Here it always looks the same, 4-6 white guys standing around laughing and scratching their backsides, while 1 or 2 Hispanics are actually working. Is it any different where you live?

Most Illegals do pay taxes, that is one reason the federal government is so hesitant to stop the influx of illegal immigration. Illegal immigrants obtain false SS numbers and pay into SS with no intent on ever collecting SS benefits. SS would be even more insolvent if we took out all the illegal immigrants who are currently paying into it.
Where do you get the idea that illegals don't pay rent or mortgage payments? Of course they do, you think someone gives them a house because they like the color of their skin?
Illegals don't buy vehicles? Where do you come up with this stuff? Of course they do, ever seen a car ad that ends with "Si habla Espanol"? Why would dealers waste their time marketing cars to Hispanic people? Must be because they buy cars.

The immigration issue is a serious one, it is a huge problem and one which our government has created and allowed to grow for the past 30 years. I think we need to seal off our borders and find viable and equitable means of dealing with those who have been encouraged to come here.

[LushGreenLawn]

The person who started this thread was obviously looking to start a fight. Why bother to feed the trolls?

[YardPro]

The problem isn't immigrants working harder, its that they'll work for less. Its been proven that Americans are the MOST productive workers in the world. But when you want to pay them minimum wage, no kidding your going to get the bottom of the barrel lazy people. Illegals don't pay taxes, we do. Illegals don't pay rent/mortgages, its provided for them. Illegals don't pay for vehicles and transportation, its provided for them. Illegals can support their families in Mexico for much cheaper, its much more expensive for us to support our families here.


If the playing field was even these "statistics" would be drastically different.


that has to be the most misinformed argument i have heard in a long time

[Mike Fronczak]

The contractor I talked to was paying his immigrants $ 12/hr (min is $ 7.??/hr), I don't know if they were legal or not, but the way he talked he knew the H2B laws, so I assume the were, so I don't think pay was the issue.

[patron]

The person who started this thread was obviously looking to start a fight. Why bother to feed the trolls?

Hardly
People across the boards here can all read the same thing and post comments. Look a little closer the fight starts from the comments the reaction if you will, Not at the start. Surely you don't want to restrict threads to only those everyone can agree on?

I will post a story on tougher enforcement we can both watch what happens.

[jeffex]

thank GOD for lazy American kids or there would be no lawn mowing business!!! there is no argument over the working skills of immigrant workers illegal or h2b. What is at stake here is the Sovrienty of America as a land of laws and its borders. The minute illegals are given blanket amnesty they will be competing for other jobs that support the middle class. There is an illegal right now on a lawn crew somewhere in America eyeing up YOUR job. Some would love to be police or fire dept. Mailman or UPS driver. Where will YOUR kids and grand kids work? For all the negatives of union workers their wages at least support middle class families. The only thing illegals are waiting for is the greed of American businesses and power hungry politicians to give them the GREEN light of AMNESTY!. History will look back at this time and see that we turned back the tide of illegal immigration or the dam broke on America. How many national anthems will be sung at sporting events to appease the multiculturalists?? ONE AMERICA don't sell it out for stupid lawn mowing. I love this business but don't let it be the trojan horse that brings in the cancer that destroys America. Find a way to make your business work without selling out to Illegal labor. It is the employers who created this problem by creating a demand for illegal workers . Let them pay the price for their own illegal behavior.

[allinearth]

If Americans can't compete with immigrants for jobs on their own turf something is wrong. It's too bad they might actually have to get their hands dirty and sweat a little. Most (not all) young Americans will not even make it a week for me. Not because I fire them.

[patron]

thank GOD for lazy American kids or there would be no lawn mowing business!!! there is no argument over the working skills of immigrant workers illegal or h2b. What is at stake here is the Sovrienty of America as a land of laws and its borders. The minute illegals are given blanket amnesty they will be competing for other jobs that support the middle class. There is an illegal right now on a lawn crew somewhere in America eyeing up YOUR job. Some would love to be police or fire dept. Mailman or UPS driver. Where will YOUR kids and grand kids work? For all the negatives of union workers their wages at least support middle class families. The only thing illegals are waiting for is the greed of American businesses and power hungry politicians to give them the GREEN light of AMNESTY!. History will look back at this time and see that we turned back the tide of illegal immigration or the dam broke on America. How many national anthems will be sung at sporting events to appease the multiculturalists?? ONE AMERICA don't sell it out for stupid lawn mowing. I love this business but don't let it be the trojan horse that brings in the cancer that destroys America. Find a way to make your business work without selling out to Illegal labor. It is the employers who created this problem by creating a demand for illegal workers . Let them pay the price for their own illegal behavior.
Simmer down
we were OK after 1986 and will we be ok after this round
If you don't want to your kids fight for low wage jobs.
Get better skills
They didn't go back in 86 and they will be here after the next so called fix.
If you think people in DC are doing things to help YOU then I have a bridge I want to sell you

[Johnson LCO]

What is up with everyone bashing the younger generation in this thread. I am fairly young (19) and consider myself to be a hard worker. Sure a lot of kids I know are useless. The guy up the street from me called me over the other day because he did not know how to use his microwave. This has as much to do with the parents as the kids. The immigrants get by because a lot of them dont pay taxes, insurance, and other fees that start to add up. Around PA there are mushroom house that employ only immigrants from what I have seen. The immigrants pool their money and buy an acre of land near the mushroom house and set up shacks with scrap material. The other day I saw an acre with almost 20 little 8x8 shacks. It is just like landscaping, they keep their costs low, so they can work for less.

[jeffex]

every generation bashes the young. It's a right of passage!!?? I'm just saying when I grew up kids delivered newspapers and cut lawns. These jobs are all done by adults running a business now. The pendulum may swing back the other way in another generaton and parents will make their kids perform these meanial tasks again!! who knows ? who cares ? it's just the way it is now! As a young person who's parents taught you to work hard and gave you respect for the things you have in life you are lucky!! you(IMO) are a step ahead and should be proud of what ever path life takes you. I love to cut lawns and am glad for the oppertunity to run a business at it.

[Trader Rick]

Good - Seasonal help is very hard to find. The H2B program fills that niche. Last season I went through a hand full of "Experienced" American workers - experienced at mowing theirs or a neighbors lawn. When we pull up on a housing development, start showing one of these guys how to edge and they realize we are mowing the whole neighborhood & they are going to be running a stick edger for hours on end they get real flaky real fast no matter how much you are paying them. I am paying these guys $9-10 bucks per hr with no commercial experience, time and a half over time averaging 55 to 60 hours a week. Most of them last one pay period and some call for me to mail them their check. I have never nor will never knowingly work illegals. Let us not forget that the majority of you in this forum are the descendants of immigrants. We are all humans, just play the game by the rules. :usflag:

[jeffex]

And those are the usual EXCUSES for lawn guys assisting foriegners in breaking our immigration laws by creating a job market for them. I know what I can make in this business. I have had my wife and son work with me for many years and I have seen the productivity levels. Where I live this is basicly a 9 month season and I need to save money to bet by in those 3 months. If your employees don't make enough to get by what kind of labor pool should you expect to choose from? Should the illegals dry up in an area sooner or later the market for landscape workers will adjust to hiring Americans above the dregs of society and change the pool of workers. Simple economics.

[topsites]

So is it myth # 3, 4, or 5 that talks about how many billions illegal aliens cost our education system? It is funny how so many people can find the bright spot to the whole illegal alien situation; guess it is much easier then actually trying to find a way to fix the problem.

Please provide a link, I would be interested to see the entire list.

I know, but I did notice the thread starter's post conveniently left out any reference as to the legality of the immigrant, which, as far as I'm concerned makes this study a lot less interesting.

[patron]

Good - Seasonal help is very hard to find. The H2B program fills that niche. Last season I went through a hand full of "Experienced" American workers - experienced at mowing theirs or a neighbors lawn. When we pull up on a housing development, start showing one of these guys how to edge and they realize we are mowing the whole neighborhood & they are going to be running a stick edger for hours on end they get real flaky real fast no matter how much you are paying them. I am paying these guys $9-10 bucks per hr with no commercial experience, time and a half over time averaging 55 to 60 hours a week. Most of them last one pay period and some call for me to mail them their check. I have never nor will never knowingly work illegals. Let us not forget that the majority of you in this forum are the descendants of immigrants. We are all humans, just play the game by the rules. :usflag:

Service work does require people who are motivated to work, to show up on time, to follow directions and instructions, to be grateful for having a job by demonstrating it in their work habits. The immigrants have these characteristics far more often than non-immigrants.

If the worker is solely motivated by a high wage before he/she will accept the job that doesn't say much for their work ethic.

90 percent of the people that criticize employers have never had to engage in finding applicants and hiring someone. It is not as simple as putting your business at risk with too high labor costs, and hiring someone who is marginally motivated for work. But then, maybe America is ready for $10 Quarter Pounders at McDonalds?

[Trader Rick]

Service work does require people who are motivated to work, to show up on time, to follow directions and instructions, to be grateful for having a job by demonstrating it in their work habits. The immigrants have these characteristics far more often than non-immigrants.

If the worker is solely motivated by a high wage before he/she will accept the job that doesn't say much for their work ethic.

90 percent of the people that criticize employers have never had to engage in finding applicants and hiring someone. It is not as simple as putting your business at risk with too high labor costs, and hiring someone who is marginally motivated for work. But then, maybe America is ready for $10 Quarter Pounders at McDonalds?
Very well said.

[jeffex]

o.k. ...so it IS ok to assist them in breaking the law because they are hard workers. Drug dealers are hard workers too lets make them legal !! Hell child molesters make good priests too! we'll at least at first. They let the standard down there and look what it got the Catholic religion. tell yourself what ever makes you feel better. Your aiding and abedding

[steve5966]

Jeff, please tell me that with your repeated accusations about assisting illegal aliens, that you are refering to just the people who knowingly hire illegals? Those of us that hire immigrants have know way of knowing for sure whether the documentation is real or not. If it looks like a social security card, then for all we know it is real. Anything beyond that we can't verify. Social security card and a goverment issued I.D. and you on your way to a job.

"And those are the usual EXCUSES for lawn guys assisting foriegners in breaking our immigration laws by creating a job market for them."

I don't know your business background, but I do know that customers create my need to hire people. No customers, no jobs.

[patron]

o.k. ...so it IS ok to assist them in breaking the law because they are hard workers. Drug dealers are hard workers too lets make them legal !! Hell child molesters make good priests too! we'll at least at first. They let the standard down there and look what it got the Catholic religion. tell yourself what ever makes you feel better. Your aiding and abedding

Jeffex,
There is just no easy answer. I in no way have encouraged anything illegal.
WE as a nation have to deal with things as they are.
Just as i do not want to hear that i am keeping wages down throughh2b, you are not going to want to hear that if your sick of illegals move to where it's cold because they hate the cold and is most likely why around here any way we don't have the numbers of them you do.
( also the economy is in the crapper )
You're the only one who can change the way things are for you.

Good Luck and Stay Healthy :)

[IA_James]

if your sick of illegals move to where it's cold because they hate the cold and is most likely why around here any way we don't have the numbers of them you do.
( also the economy is in the crapper )


You just need a packing plant or two around ya. My hometown is about 25% Hispanic these days.

[patron]

You just need a packing plant or two around ya. My hometown is about 25% Hispanic these days.

First all the steel mills closed then all the tire factories and once they get through destroying the last of the auto jobs we'll be left with nothing but a burning river.:(

[IA_James]

First all the steel mills closed then all the tire factories and once they get through destroying the last of the auto jobs we'll be left with nothing but a burning river.:(

Yeah, they've closed alot around here, and beat down the wages at what's left with threats to move. Free trade has been rough on us also.

[Trader Rick]

IF.............They are working under the H2B program they are NOT illegal.

[jeffex]

so Hector shows up with his cousin Rodriguez who has a SS # and a drivers lisc. and barely speaks English and that good enough for some people. Cover your a$$ is a good policy. If a hooker shows up with a sore on her lip and tells you she's "clean ", are you still ready for "action". Sorry for the bad reference but come on. Side stepping immigration laws to satisfy your customers demand is BS. rationalizing this behavior is what your doing. Its not my job to check their status. Their better workers.... they don't call in drunk.. I mean sick.. they work all day without complaining... All just rationalizations to make you feel better about creating a job for them as they steal across our border. Some people will have to cut their own lawn since they can't pay american wages . Some businesses will drop the anuals package or some other service from their contract to pay American wages. America will adjust to real prices and real wages . When the supply of labor and its costs levels out to reflect a legal labor pool the demand will seek that level too. Its simple economics. I have a deck staining business too. If my competition is beating my price should I put water in the stain to cut my costs so I can compete? Should I take some other shortcut to trim costs ? I choose to hold my prices and wait for him to drop out of the picture! I'm certaintly not going to jump into the illegal labor pool . It's your world Man!!! I ain't movin' because of illegals I'm taking a stand on them

[patron]

I'm taking a stand on them

Well
If You don't stand for something you'll fall for anything
Here's hoping it works out for you as you envision it.

Best of luck this season

[jeffex]

thank you ... and for you the same good luck!!