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INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-26-2008, 01:45 PM
Has anyone who participates here taken Jan Moyer's program "Landscape Lighting Institure" in Troy, NY?

If you have participated, I would really appreciate your comments, review, and input.

Thanks.

Eden Lights
01-26-2008, 03:05 PM
Has anyone who participates here taken Jan Moyer's program "Landscape Lighting Institure" in Troy, NY?

If you have participated, I would really appreciate your comments, review, and input.

Thanks.

I have been, I will PM you when I get a chance and I may have reviewed this already over at Lowvolt.org.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-27-2008, 01:40 AM
Thanks. I would appreciate your feedback.

Mike M
01-27-2008, 08:56 AM
There is a guy either here or on another forum we attend, who is from upstate NY and has participated in that program.

Pro-Scapes
01-27-2008, 10:37 AM
i think your reffering to tom williams there mike. Very accomplished designer as well.

EDIT--Sorry I took out the rest of my post

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-29-2008, 09:11 AM
I have been, I will PM you when I get a chance and I may have reviewed this already over at Lowvolt.org.

Eddie

I never did get that PM you mentioned. I would really appreciate hearing your feedback directly.

Thanks.

JoeyD
01-29-2008, 11:01 AM
Have fun with that one James!!

Eden Lights
01-29-2008, 12:36 PM
Have fun with that one James!!


What's that mean?? It's raining today, but behind on designs. How about a phone call James, what time should I call.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-29-2008, 12:42 PM
What's that mean?? It's raining today, but behind on designs. How about a phone call James, what time should I call.

Call is great. it is 11:41 here now and I have a a 2pm meeting. Will be outa here by 1pm. 705-385-3000

Thanks.

JoeyD
01-29-2008, 01:33 PM
I was being pesamistic I guess.

I have heard a lot about the class and Nate used to be the one who taught all of her technical stuff. Correct me if I am wrong but unless you are going to just be inspired and to listen to a bunch of over the top design philosophy you really dont learn much that is going to help you make more money. I am not knocking going and learning, hell I told Nate I was thinking about signing up some day. But from what he and others said is that she really doesnt teach, she just kind of lets you play with a bunch of lights and experiment, she doesnt walk around and critique and tell you when what you are doing sucks and this would be rigth and yada, yada, yada.

They concensus was that after hearing her speak/teach you walk out going thinking that she is awesome and that you feel so inspired. But when you actually sit back and think about it you really learn nothing.......

Tell us what your feelings were Eddie. I am not trying to be super negative, but I have heard things that made me form this opinion. Her speach at AOLP was somewhat inspiring but whoever made the decision to spend a bunch of AOLP money to hear her talk about her life story made a huge mistake. You do not pay Jan Moyer to hear how she got so smart, you pay her a bunch of money to hear her make YOU smarter.

Again, not trying to bash, she inspired me in that speach she gave, I was blown away anyone would put that much schooling and education into lighting, but as one should do which is sometimes question I just dont know how much of what she teaches can be directly applied to what it is we all do on a daily basis.

NightScenes
01-29-2008, 01:46 PM
Joey, the idea for the speech was, how do you get to where she is? How she got there helps others see what they need to do to get to the top, if you know what I mean. I thought it was interesting to learn how someone gets to the very top of their profession to where they are considered the "master". I don't think any of us would go through everything that she did to get there but it does help to understand how it all came together for her.

Another good thing about her speech was that it covered a topic that she had never covered before, which meant that it wasn't the same thing that you hear every time she gets on stage. I have heard too many people tell me how boring and dry these speeches of hers can be, but I didn't hear about anyone falling asleep during this speech.

JoeyD
01-29-2008, 02:51 PM
I just think that when you pay Jan Moyer to speak you should be learning. It is great to hear how she studied abroad and was mentored by this person and that person inspired her and her color wheel drawings and how we all see differently and all of that was great and neat and I am glad I can say I know what it takes to become a Janet Moyer. But how is that hour speach about her going to make us all better lighting guys? Should we all go back to shcool, should we go study abroad? I am just left thinking that I wish I had got the chance to hear her pick apart photos that Tom Williams posted and what she would do differently and how using this lamp with this plant is bad and or good, you know what I mean. I think I would have liked to hear her speak 2 times last week. Once to establish to us how she got to where she is like she did then a class geared for the AOLP's members on how they can apply what she knows to their everyday designs without going and spending 15 years studying.

Just my $.02, I am very pleased I just was hoping for a bit more. I had ever had the opportunity to hear her so I was hoping to hear a bunch of good design stuff.

Eden Lights
01-29-2008, 04:39 PM
Joey, I called James and gave him my review and that was even before I read your post. You are right on and I have been saying this all along, most are looking for inspiration and not nuts & bolts. I want to see someone's work that is over the top in visual composition and not just fixture counts. I would rather be a starving artist than a fixture salesman. I think there are several here that are ready to be paid for their artistic skills and not just for their fixture sales. We as a industry are still in the upward slope, but as better and better fixtures become a commodity to everyone (example:flat panel TV's) you had better be selling yourself and not the equipment. If anyone wants my opinion on training, seek out the inspirational opportunities after your head is wrapped around the technical aspects. Lew Waltz taught me how to design and install a technically correct lighting system about 8 years ago in about three hours and I really havn't been shown anything really new since that time, but true lighting design knowledge and human perception is something that is a never ending learning experience.

warning: I just had a triple shot at starbucks and I am feeling a little pumped.

pete scalia
01-29-2008, 10:04 PM
I was being pesamistic I guess.

I have heard a lot about the class and Nate used to be the one who taught all of her technical stuff. Correct me if I am wrong but unless you are going to just be inspired and to listen to a bunch of over the top design philosophy you really dont learn much that is going to help you make more money. I am not knocking going and learning, hell I told Nate I was thinking about signing up some day. But from what he and others said is that she really doesnt teach, she just kind of lets you play with a bunch of lights and experiment, she doesnt walk around and critique and tell you when what you are doing sucks and this would be rigth and yada, yada, yada.

They concensus was that after hearing her speak/teach you walk out going thinking that she is awesome and that you feel so inspired. But when you actually sit back and think about it you really learn nothing.......

Tell us what your feelings were Eddie. I am not trying to be super negative, but I have heard things that made me form this opinion. Her speach at AOLP was somewhat inspiring but whoever made the decision to spend a bunch of AOLP money to hear her talk about her life story made a huge mistake. You do not pay Jan Moyer to hear how she got so smart, you pay her a bunch of money to hear her make YOU smarter.

Again, not trying to bash, she inspired me in that speach she gave, I was blown away anyone would put that much schooling and education into lighting, but as one should do which is sometimes question I just dont know how much of what she teaches can be directly applied to what it is we all do on a daily basis.

So what you are saying then is that she ripped off the association being a paid speaker and not delivering the goods? How much did she rob from the aolp for this fiasco? Are you demanding your $ back? Are you also saying that her class in upstate NY is a waste of time and money? Thanks for the heads up you just saved me some scratch.

irrig8r
01-29-2008, 11:14 PM
So what you are saying then is that she ripped off the association being a paid speaker and not delivering the goods? How much did she rob from the aolp for this fiasco? Are you demanding your $ back? Are you also saying that her class in upstate NY is a waste of time and money? Thanks for the heads up you just saved me some scratch.

Same old Pete.

I dunno why exactly Pete, but when I read what you write I always hear Tony Sirico's voice...

pete scalia
01-30-2008, 12:15 AM
Same old Pete.

I dunno why exactly Pete, but when I read what you write I always hear Tony Sirico's voice...

That's cause my old man and Paulie Walnuts go all the way back to the brooklyn days. Before Sirico was incarcerated for strong arming and extorting a NYC club owner. Check the smoking gun.com That's right the actor was once the real thing. bada bing.... bada boop...

irrig8r
01-30-2008, 01:24 AM
Thanks Pete. That was a very entertaining read.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/sirico/tssent1.html

JoeyD
01-30-2008, 11:28 AM
So what you are saying then is that she ripped off the association being a paid speaker and not delivering the goods? How much did she rob from the aolp for this fiasco? Are you demanding your $ back? Are you also saying that her class in upstate NY is a waste of time and money? Thanks for the heads up you just saved me some scratch.

She definitly did not rip the association off. Some thought it would be a good idea to hear how she got to where she is. If you read my statement I said I too was inspired by it, I personally would have just liked to have learned some design skills from her. Maybe dropping some scratch by going to her class this could be done. I am definilty not demanding my money back, the meeting as a whole was as expected unbelievable! I had a great time!

Like I tell people about our classes you need to attend it for yourself to find out if it was worth it for yourself.

irrig8r
01-30-2008, 12:22 PM
Joey, don't take my digging up Nightscaping history as a knock on you, Nate, or Unique.

Sometimes your passion for Unique is so over the top that you tend to ignore some of what went on before. I chalk it up to youthful enthusiasm. :)

I think Unique has played a significant role in raising the bar for this industry. Even if we disagree about methods, we can agree that from time to time we need to reexamine our assumptions and look at new ideas and find solutions that serve our businesses best.

I think you might just find a renewed enthusiasm brewing over at Nightscaping too. I like it when manufacturers are forced to improve and innovate to compete for our business.

irrig8r
01-30-2008, 12:34 PM
Oops. Wrong thread. Oh well. I had multiple windows open at once.

JoeyD
01-30-2008, 12:36 PM
Gregg, I'm a big boy (and I don't mean just physically) I can take anything thrown at me, I respect you and your opinion 100%. I try very hard to not take things personally and I understand sometimes I say things that invite criticism. I agree that my youthfulness sometimes gets the best of me, but don't let me being 28 overshadow me being around since 1996 in this industry and I don't mean green industry I mean low voltage lighting industry. A lot went on before me but a lot has gone on since I have been here. I do agree however that competition is a good thing, heck sometimes I even feel like what else is there really that we can do that is so "different". Then we have an idea to develop a new UPB Sub Panel...I just love what I do and I love working for this company and I just want other people to see why I feel this way.

I appreciate everything you guys do and say regardless if it is in my or Uniques best interest or not. We are all after the same goal and we need not forget that!

Tomwilllight
05-06-2008, 01:22 PM
I had the honor and pleasure to have attended Jan's first Landscape Lighting Institute in... I think it was the Fall of 1996. Since then, she has invited me to assist with the instruction of the class as I have had time. I managed to help out at several of them and came away each time reenergized and inspired to bring more to of my designs.

Jan is the hardest working designer I have ever seen in action. She is relentless in her pursuit of perfection and she has an incredible eye for luminous design.

I also have had the extraordinary good fortune to work with Greg Yale for 4 years - Jan recommended me for the job.

Greg is a very different type of designer and has an entirely different approach to lighting design from Jan's. Each has unique and personal approaches to lighting a landscape and each is their own best critic. Both demand the best of themselves and are able to reveal the landscape to their clients in subtle and lovely ways. Both embrace dark, love light and create mystery.

I am completely aware of, and humbled by, my certain knowledge that both of them see more lighting design possibilities after 10 seconds of looking at a garden than I see in 10 hours. I believe that my strength as a designer is that I'm aware of my limitations.

Lighting Design is difficult to do well and very easy to do poorly. We have clients who, through our efforts, receive light where there was only dark before. The impact of that transition is over-powering and generates much initial pleasure for the client. It is easy to sell bad lighting and it is difficult to grow as a lighting designer unless we learn to see - not what the client sees (for they are not the experts, only the source of our livelihood) but what is really going on in the lighted landscape.

How many landscape lighting installations are there that are not maintained? Many? Most? Why don't they get maintained? Contractor inattention or client inattention. If it's the client who hasn't noticed that 1/2 of his lamps are out and that the focus for the rest have shifted, why didn't they notice? What is going on? After all, they paid good money for the installation!

Could it be they got tired of the lights? Could it be they found little interest in just having some light in the dark? Could it be that the design was not very interesting from the start? I think so... maybe...

Jan's class is an opportunity for you to exercise your designer's eye. You get to "play with some lights" and then you have the opportunity to have the world's best landscape lighting designer tell you what she sees in your "play." You exercise your design skills, refine your approach to luminous design and come out a better designer than you were before. Or, at least, you have had the opportunity to learn, if you choose to take advantage of what is offered.

Is her Insititute worth the money? Only if you are willing to work your tail off and absorb everything shown and said to you, much of which will be completely new information for you. If you think it's not worth it... then it would be expensive at $45.00 and a complete waste of everybody's time. If you think that there may be some subtleties in this luminance design business that you could be missing, then you'll find the money spent the best investment you've ever made.

Contrary to other posts I've read here, Landscape Lighting Design is NOT easy. To do it well is very difficult. This chat seems to host a lot of posturing. That's fine... but does it make you better at what you do? That's my focus.

Tom Williams
www.wlld.us

BTW: the October 2008 Landscape Lighting Institute is fully subscribed and the waiting list has at least 8 names on it. If there is a demand, Jan may consider offering a second class.

JoeyD
05-06-2008, 01:58 PM
Hey Tom!

I dont see anywhere where anyone said that design is EASY? Your statement of posturing and it "being fine but does it make you better at what you do?" is kind of what I think I was getting at with what I saw at the AOLP.

I didnt feel one bit like I was a better designer after hearing Jan Moyer speak at the AOLP this year, nor does anyone else I have spoken with that attended. Not to say atending this class wouldn't, I am sure after attending a week long class with her you would and should be a better designer than you were before. I made it known that I wish someday I would be able to attend.

I think I was very clear as to how great I thought she was at the AOLP this year but there was very little to learn when it came down to the lighting design side. I felt like I now have an idea of why she is so good at what she does, but for as much time, schooling, and investement she has into it I would expect nothing less.

Lighting Design as a whole is very hard to learn and be good at. I am one who belives that design skills come with time and experience and not so much with learning from and reading what others have written, although those are tools we all should use and have at our finger tips. Lighting is visual therefore you must see what is good and what is bad. You can only do that by getting out there and setting up lights on real landscapes and architecture.

I am sure designs I have done would be picked apart and would be dismissed by the likes of you and Jan, they look nothing like what I have seen from either you or her. But I have never had a homeowner tell me they didnt like my work, they are usually blown away and exstatic over the design and how their property now looks. Do I understand entirely how the eye works, no. Do I have a college degree, no. Have I written a book, no. But do I have some people who continually recommend myself to help with designs and job layouts? ABSOLUTLY.

You will see here Tom that most of us all are participating so we can learn more and be better at what we do. For the most part it rests along the technical side which is just as important if not more important then the actual design. You can have the best deisgn in the world but if its poorly installed then it is nothing. Of course that statement could be used visa versa.

Glad to see you here Tom, I look forward to your particiaption. You have a wealth of knowledge that everyone here would love to have shared.

Tomwilllight
05-06-2008, 03:04 PM
Joey, Thanks for the welcome.

FYI:
Jan was told by Michele S to NOT speak on design. The topic she gave Jan was "my personal development as a designer." I was profoundly surprised, as was Jan. That the talk didn't make you or anyone else a better designer is no surprise to me. The Institute is very different, 10 to 12 hour days and much hands on design work and critique can make for big growth. There is no technical/installation type training there. The manufacturers are doing a good job of covering that.

Good installers have to have something good to install if they wish to reach the top of their profession.

Tom

JoeyD
05-06-2008, 03:16 PM
Right on Tom!! And I wasnt blaming Jan. From what I hear she NEVER likes to just talk about herself like that, that it was the first time she has ever done that. Paul explained that the AOLP thought it would be a good thing for her to do what she did and I too agree but I think it then should have been followed up by what people would really want to hear from an educational standpoint, and from her that would have been fixture placement, application, and overall design techniques. I mean how often dow e really get an opportunity to get in front of Jan Moyer?

But again, she is pretty amazing and it was very cool hearing about how she got to where she is today.

seolatlanta
05-06-2008, 03:56 PM
Well after all this can somebody post a link , or someone who has been there and actually benefited from it , post about it?

I will Google it , but we still havent heard about the class or institute yet. Or have I ?:)

Tomwilllight
05-06-2008, 05:44 PM
http://www.janmoyerdesign.com/pages/lli.html

Tom

seolatlanta
05-06-2008, 05:46 PM
Thank you Tom!

Hope you are doing well !