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zedosix
01-27-2008, 09:03 AM
A few of you already know I am in the market for a new med. duty truck. I will be having a look at an 05 International 4300 (195hp) with the 466 dt motor, by all sounds of it this is a great motor. It has 125, 000 miles on it, Allison auto tranny, hydraulic brakes, 22.5" lo prof. tires and a 5:57 rear axle ratio. Total gvwr is just under 26,000lb. I have made plans to have the rear axle moved forward to a CA length of 108" and placement of a new dump unit. My thinking is if there is not enough power in this motor, how easy, expensive etc is it to increase the power in the motor. Is it advisable or should I just leave it be. Any thoughts are appreciated.

Landrus2
01-27-2008, 09:38 AM
You got your self a good power plant. do not touch any thing on the engine.
If you can find one with a stander transmission. that is the perfect set up. but that is only my opinion:drinkup:

RockSet N' Grade
01-27-2008, 10:10 AM
Zedo........I have an older DT466 with 250 hp and there are several things you can do to that motor. You can buy an aftermarket turbo which will add about 25% more torque and hp. You can also "chip" that motor which will give you substantially more hp if you need it. Those little motors are good runners. The one thing I would ask right now is when is the last time it had an overhead? Seems they need to be done about every 50,000 miles.....it is mostly minor adjustments, but really must be done. I have also found that I have to watch my air cleaners, they seem to plug (for me) 3-4 times a year and when they get plugged, you can really notice lack of power.

zedosix
01-27-2008, 10:19 AM
Zedo........I have an older DT466 with 250 hp and there are several things you can do to that motor. You can buy an aftermarket turbo which will add about 25% more torque and hp. You can also "chip" that motor which will give you substantially more hp if you need it. Those little motors are good runners. The one thing I would ask right now is when is the last time it had an overhead? Seems they need to be done about every 50,000 miles.....it is mostly minor adjustments, but really must be done. I have also found that I have to watch my air cleaners, they seem to plug (for me) 3-4 times a year and when they get plugged, you can really notice lack of power.

I thought they had some way to increase the power without having to go the aftermarket route. I will ask the garage where I am buying it, he used to be an international dealer so I'm sure he will be able to set me up or at least advice on what can be done.

AWJ Services
01-27-2008, 10:26 AM
If I remember right I think that the engines computer can be reprogrammed at different power levels.
Here is a link to the new engine and it's available power levels.



http://www.internationaldelivers.com/site_layout/engine/dt466detail.asp#performance_data

RockSet N' Grade
01-27-2008, 11:32 AM
Check out tsperformance.com. Their plug and play modual for the dt466 has 3 in cab settings and will increase hp 15-30%.

ksss
01-27-2008, 12:21 PM
That is a low set of gearing. Even though the hp is rather low the gearing may provide all the torque you need. It is good to know that if you want more power you can add it, but I would run it first before adding any thing. The bigger issue may be having a truck that has a top speed of 55 mph before it governs out. Also check to see what the rating is on the Allison before jumping up the power substantially. They are not cheap to rebuild. Your mileage certainly is not going to be great with that low gear ratio. Trucks with that type of gear ratio are usually speced for stop and go delivery type operations that seldom see highway use. Depending on how you plan on using the truck, that might work well for you or not. I would certainly take a lengthy test drive and do it under load if that is possible.

Gravel Rat
01-27-2008, 01:56 PM
Your biggest weak link is the Allison transmision it probably has a input torque that is matched to that engine rating. Now you increase the power the transmission won't handle the power. As for the power out of the 466 is as high as you want to go. With 300hp it should give you 750-800ftlbs of torque.

I would keep searching for the right sized wheelbase etc spec'ed truck.

By the time you shorten the wheelbase,make a new driveshaft,make new brakes lines etc you are getting into some money. Then the truck has gearing not really suited for road speed the truck will be topped out at 80km/h.

westcoh
01-27-2008, 04:44 PM
I've heard about lots of people who buy a truck like that with the DT466 with 190 HP, and then wonder why it's so underpowered, although I doubt they had a 5:57 ratio either. The good thing is that engine rated for 190hp will probably last you forever.

Personally, I would probably look for the DT466 with atleast 230hp if you'll be using it as a dump truck.

Here's one example of someone who ended up with the dt466/190 hp who found it underpowered:

http://www.thedieselgarage.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58307&highlight=dt466+190hp

Gravel Rat
01-27-2008, 05:43 PM
The automatic will make it feel slow and underpowered especially so with those low gears and low hp. The 466 and 530/570 are probably one of the better medium duty engines out there. The 7.2 Cat isn't that great the 5.9 Cummins is too small the 8.3 Cummins is okay but has problems.

The only problem with International trucks is they are uglier than sin :laugh:

The highways dept has a few 7400 single axle plow trucks with 466 Power with 8 spds the trucks are pretty good. The drivers seem to like them they say the 466 is a little underpowered but what do you expect with a 35,000lb gvw truck.

tnmtn
01-27-2008, 07:01 PM
i test drove a 4300 with the 466 a couple months ago. i was very impressed. it still had the box on it and had been a hertz penske truck previously. as far as boosting the power i have heard to go to around 225HP is fine for the allison tranny. after a couple years with an allison on my 3500 i am a believer in allison auto's. they aren't your fathers auto's for sure. how much weight are you looking to tow with it? i was warned against towing more than 8 tons. i was told it would do it but be very slow going. with your gearing that may not be an issue though.
good luck,

forestfireguy
01-27-2008, 07:01 PM
We run a 4300 standard trams 6 spd. It is a little underpowered for our area, lots of real hills, if it were flat ground it would be fine. We use it to move all of our equipment, skidsteers, mini exs, if the big trailer has the 305 cat the truck is a dog.......otherwise it isn't too bad.

PAPS Landscape Design
01-27-2008, 07:25 PM
I have a 96' dumping grain with a 230hp DT466 and it has ZERO power, once you get any payload, or tow a trailer, you're done. It has a top speed of 80 mph, and I was told its not geared right for a dump-truck, the chassis was once a box truck thats why it has no power for 230hp. I am going to look into getting it right for this upcoming season, but overall, its a nightmare. If i have to get it geared and the top speed is like 55-60, I am going to do it, because right now its unbareable. When I tell you the truck doesnt move with 7-8 tons of QP, I am not kidding.

RockSet N' Grade
01-27-2008, 08:46 PM
Paps, my 97-98 250 hp DT466 pulls my 18k hoe with a loaded trailer and box of implements ok, but you are right....they are underpowered. I tried to chip it, but for some reason since my truck is a crossover year, the chip would not work. I was looking into an aftermarket turbo that would give it juice...will pass on that info when I get it. I can go 65 mph down the freeway, but the pick-up speed leaves something to be desired.....it's paid for, so I am gonna just grin and bear it this next year...

PAPS Landscape Design
01-27-2008, 09:06 PM
Rock: same here, its paid for so I deal with it. I really thought about dumping it for something with more power, but the fact that its paid for and I re-did the motor like 15-20K miles ago, I keep it.. I just know my limitations with it and thats it...
keep me posted on this chip, or anything I can do..
I believe its a 95 or 96

zedosix
01-27-2008, 10:05 PM
i test drove a 4300 with the 466 a couple months ago. i was very impressed. it still had the box on it and had been a hertz penske truck previously. as far as boosting the power i have heard to go to around 225HP is fine for the allison tranny. after a couple years with an allison on my 3500 i am a believer in allison auto's. they aren't your fathers auto's for sure. how much weight are you looking to tow with it? i was warned against towing more than 8 tons. i was told it would do it but be very slow going. with your gearing that may not be an issue though.
good luck,

This is exactly what the truck was used for in the past. It was in Penske's fleet. I know there are more than one available for the choosing so idealy what should I look for in rear end. As far as towing is concerned I would likely tow maximum 5 tons. As far as loads in the dump truck I am hoping to haul up to 7 tons max with it. I do work in a mostly stop go area. I call my town "stopsville" if you know what I mean. Seems you can't go more than 200 yrds with out having to stop at a set of lights. It will seldom see hwy use. This friday I will test it out on the highway and try to get an idea of how it feels overall. Unfortuneatly it will have no weight on it. I have been quoted 28k for this truck with the axle moved and the truck painted.

ksss
01-27-2008, 11:28 PM
Given the stop n go type driving you have in mind, and the lower hp engine it is probably a good ratio. You might want to add up the weight of the truck plus the weight of the dump body and subtract that from your GVW. Seven ton payload is a lot, I am not you will have room for that much after you get the truck set up. Given that kind of weight it will likely feel underpowered fully loaded. This may sound extreme but you might load the truck with pallets of block or brick and put them in the van body (I am assuming it still has the van body). It might be a PINA and you might have to pay the brick yard to load and unload you, however your spending almost 30K on a new to you truck you want to make sure you buy the right one. Given the specs of the truck it might be tight as to whether or not it will work for you.

Gravel Rat
01-27-2008, 11:29 PM
You want the Allison 6spd I forget the model number but the 5spd isn't the one you really want. When they build the truck they don't put a transmission with a higher torque rating behind the engine. So at current state the engine has 600ftlbs of torque the transmission has a input torque of 650.

The transmission model you want is the Allison 3000 I looked up the specs it has a torque input of 1100ftlbs. The 1000-2100-2350-2500-2550 only have a 550ftlb input torque rating. So no turning up the engine if you have any one of those transmissions.

zedosix
01-27-2008, 11:47 PM
I believe he mentioned 9500 lbs for the truck and frame, the box is 2500. Should leave room for I'm hoping at least 6 tons, after fuel, driver, passenger and 200lbs of mud on the frame is factored in. Being that I will only put a 12' box on it with 18" sides it won't hold much more than that anyway. I will have to keep within these limits to be legal.

zedosix
01-28-2008, 10:03 AM
i test drove a 4300 with the 466 a couple months ago. i was very impressed. it still had the box on it and had been a hertz penske truck previously. as far as boosting the power i have heard to go to around 225HP is fine for the allison tranny. after a couple years with an allison on my 3500 i am a believer in allison auto's. they aren't your fathers auto's for sure. how much weight are you looking to tow with it? i was warned against towing more than 8 tons. i was told it would do it but be very slow going. with your gearing that may not be an issue though.
good luck,

Do you know what hp that truck was rated at? Did it have air brakes on it. If so it was probably a higher rated motor. I am hoping to hear from someone who has the exact pagkage. I emailed the guy and was told to get to a higher hp motor, the gvwr changes to 33k and the transmission is standard. I want any one of my guys to jump in the truck with their class "g" licence and not have to worry about air brakes and being overloaded etc.

zedosix
01-28-2008, 10:05 AM
I have a 96' dumping grain with a 230hp DT466 and it has ZERO power, once you get any payload, or tow a trailer, you're done. It has a top speed of 80 mph, and I was told its not geared right for a dump-truck, the chassis was once a box truck thats why it has no power for 230hp. I am going to look into getting it right for this upcoming season, but overall, its a nightmare. If i have to get it geared and the top speed is like 55-60, I am going to do it, because right now its unbareable. When I tell you the truck doesnt move with 7-8 tons of QP, I am not kidding.

Pretty obvoius it doesn't have the right gear. My 6500 gmc has a cat motor and tops out at 65mph, now it has more than enough to pull anything, just takes a while to get rolling.

RockSet N' Grade
01-28-2008, 11:34 AM
Paps: my truck tops out (rpm wise) at about 67 mph. You definately have highway gears. When I first got my truck, it topped out at about 50 mph.....so I changed the rear end....sorry, I can't remember what I changed it too........your local mechanic or an Intertrashional dealer can spec that for you real easy to match it up right.

PAPS Landscape Design
01-28-2008, 12:53 PM
ZEDOSIX: I also have a 00' Chevy 6500 grain body with a CAT 3126? motor and its an animal, out pulls that DT466 hands down.... and like you said, top speed about 65 mph.

ROCKSET: Yes It has to be a rear end issue... its not geared right, it has plenty of HP at 230, but is geared for highway (speed) rather then power, I am going to look into changing the rear before the spring, but I am sure its going to be $1500+++ for that little upgrade...

zedosix
01-28-2008, 12:58 PM
[QUOTE=PAPS Landscape Design;2120415]ZEDOSIX: I also have a 00' Chevy 6500 grain body with a CAT 3126? motor and its an animal, out pulls that DT466 hands down.... and like you said, top speed about 65 mph.
QUOTE]

Yes I have the same 3126 motor with eaton trans. I like it but was hoping for more power than that gives. I may end up going to my second choice which will cost more but may be more effective. A 2007 5500 gmc with duramax and allison tranny.

ksss
01-28-2008, 08:53 PM
I was going to suggest that to you however the GVW is 19,500 which is a little less than what you had orginally speced. I will say that you wont have any problems with power. I don't have a dump bed on mine but they will handle the weight real well. I tow a lot of weight with it. With the right trailer it will bridge a lot of weight.

zedosix
01-28-2008, 09:09 PM
It has a real nice dump unit on there now, and the power is just what I need. I spoke with a mechanic tonight who worked on Penske's fleet. All his trucks were standard shift and they were over 200 hp. He agreed they were short on power. Thanks to a few informed guys on this site I will end up with the right truck. :)

P.Services
01-28-2008, 09:41 PM
zedosix i remember you said 0% interest was important to you. we have a dealer in michigan who has a very nice 5500 4x4 with a mulch dump on it he is selling and is offering 0% on it. if this interest's (no pun intended) you let me know and i will get you the phone number. its just like krefts truck. i think it was $43k

zedosix
01-28-2008, 09:47 PM
zedosix i remember you said 0% interest was important to you. we have a dealer in michigan who has a very nice 5500 4x4 with a mulch dump on it he is selling and is offering 0% on it. if this interest's (no pun intended) you let me know and i will get you the phone number. its just like krefts truck. i think it was $43k

I need to work some #'s at the moment, but will keep it in mind Picasso, thanks for looking out.

P.Services
01-28-2008, 09:51 PM
while we are talking about trucks i found a extended cab f-550 that i really want to pull my lawn trl next season. and i found a f-650 extended cab dump with a auto i really want also. the extended cabs seem kinda rare and i like the looks and function of them. i to am trying to work some numbers to make it happen. i would post links so you could all see them but i dont want to give away the secret location.

RockSet N' Grade
01-28-2008, 11:02 PM
Paps: yea, about $1500. Get the last 8 vin numbers off your driver side door panel and call International. They can fax you a whole spec sheet for that particular truck so you have it for your records, or, just ask for the current rear end ratio that is in the truck. For the dealer, all that info is just one computor click away, they do it all day for every truck that comes into the shop. I am suppose to be faxed the info on a higher perf. turbo tomorrow. Cost is $1,700 and suppose to give 30% more and significant more spool on the low end where these trucks are really weak.

PAPS Landscape Design
01-29-2008, 12:06 AM
ROCKSET: its funny you said that about calling the dealer, I spoke with the local rear end re-build specialist and he told me the exact same thing, call the dealer and get the specs on that rear 1st, then he will tell me what he can do, from what i describe, he thinks its spec'd in the low 3's... I will be calling the dealer tomm.

RockSet N' Grade
01-29-2008, 10:46 AM
PaPs........its just a case of "been there done that". I have asked so many questions about my truck, the last eight digits of my truck serial number are embedded in my mind. Learn the last 8 or have them written down handy somewhere. Anytime you are working on your truck, you will need to reference those.

PAPS Landscape Design
01-29-2008, 03:05 PM
Well according to International the rear in my 4900 is a w230 spicer 5.38, myself and the parts guy both think this original rear was changed at some point becuase he says there is no way the top speed would be around 75 mph with the 5.38...
next step is to take out the rear and bring it in to the shop

Gravel Rat
01-29-2008, 05:23 PM
The easiest way to tell what you have is lift the one drive wheels off the gound. Mark a spot on the tire either the 12 or 6 oclock turn the drive shaft see how many turns of the driveshaft to give you on full rotation of the wheel.

It isn't hard to drop the drop out of the housing but just to find out the gear ratio I hope you like some exercise :laugh:

There should be a tag on the 3rd member saying the gear ratio or the tooth count of the pinion and ring gear.

RockSet N' Grade
01-29-2008, 06:10 PM
Got a one page fax on the turbo today...not enough info to make an informed decision. The turbo: S400SX by Borg Warner. AirWerks makes three of these turbos.....

JLAWNCARE
01-29-2008, 06:59 PM
Dt 466 Is Great Motor It Is What It Is And Willrun Forever But International With Allison Low Gears Is A Dog .watch Driven With Out A Body Seem Real Strong 'add Body And Weight And It Won't Pull A Hill Bikes Will Be Passing You

P.Services
01-29-2008, 10:06 PM
while we are talking about engines i have a quick question, im looking at a f650 with a 3126b cat. is that the same as the c7??? is the 3126b paired with the auto a good power train???

kyle 03
02-03-2008, 09:31 PM
I didnt know a 466 dt had a power level?