Hispanic panic

[patron]

'Hispanic panic' as Arizona immigration crackdown bites

1 day ago

PHOENIX, Arizona (AFP) — One month after Arizona introduced a law cracking down on businesses which employ illegal immigrants, Latino workers are fleeing the state and companies are laying off employees in droves, officials and activists say.

Arizona has become one of the frontlines of the US immigration debate and broke new ground on January 1 with a law that threatens to put of business companies which knowingly hire undocumented workers.

The effects of the law have been immediate, according to businessmen, workers and rights activists who spoke to AFP, with companies driving up wages to attract labor while being forced to part company with prized employees.

Even though a federal judge ruled last week that there will be no prosecutions under the law until March, it has done little to prevent a phenomenon being dubbed "Hispanic Panic."

"There's a lot of fear and some people are leaving," said Salvador Reza, an immigrant-rights activist who runs a day labor center in Phoenix.

"The fear is not only at the worker level, it's at the employer level. I've never seen that before in my life."

Workers are going back to Mexico or to other states, Reza said. He predicted small businesses forced to lay off skilled employees like welders will now pay them in cash, creating a black economy.

"The underground economy is going to take hold now, and there will be less money for the state," Reza said.

Ten men were laid off at Ironco, a steel fabrication company in Phoenix which builds large-scale construction projects.

"We had to let them go," president Sheridan Bailey said. "Unfortunately some of these people were our best workers. This is terribly tragic."

Two out of three men who apply at Ironco, a construction firm that specialises in buildings and parking garages made with heavy steel, are Hispanic or foreign-born Hispanic, the company said.

Ironco has raised steel fitters' wages 30 percent from a year ago, according to Bailey. "We've raised wages, competing for a diminishing supply (of workers)," he said. "We?ve been on a campaign of quality improvement, training, scouring the waterfront, so to speak, for American vets, ex-offenders trying to find their way back into society."

A crew leader who worked for Rick Robinson?s Phoenix landscaping company left the state because his wife is an illegal worker. The worker was scared his wife would be deported.

"I've talked to other companies who have said they can?t find anybody," Robinson said. "I've heard they're going to Utah or Texas or New Mexico because they don?t have a law like this. We and other landscape companies are uncertain as to how far-reaching it will be. People don't know what they can and can't do. The whole thing is confusing, gross, and unfair."

David Jones, head of the Arizona Contractors Association, said he knows of three construction companies which have laid off 30, 40, and 70 employees respectively since the beginning of the year.

"They can't stand the risk of losing their license," Jones said. Many workers are heading to neigboring Nevada to find jobs.

"We've created a climate which will make Arizona?s construction industry subordinate to Nevada," Jones said.

"We're all frustrated (with illegal immigration), but I don?t think this is the right approach. If we don?t have a functional guest worker program in this country, we?re going to be in trouble."

Businesses feel exposed to discrimination lawsuits and anonymous malicious complaints from competitors, said Greater Phoenix Chamber of Commerce vice president Todd Sanders.

"What we?re hearing from folks is a level of uncertainty because there are some loose ends in the law," Sanders said.

The ripple in Arizona?s economy has spread to other sectors. Real estate agent John Aguero Sr. said he gets four to seven calls each day from people asking about what they can do with their homes.

Fifteen out of 100 people who call Aguero "are just walking away from their property," he said.

One man called and asked how long the foreclosure process would take if he skipped his 1,600 house payments. Aguero told him four months.

"Well, I?ll save that and just go home (to Guatemala)," Aguero said. "His wife is a citizen but he's not. The whole family will pack up and leave. He has three children, all of whom were born here."

Royal Palms Middle School serves a largely Hispanic and immigrant area of the city. Three or four students have formally left the school since the beginning of the year. Twice that number haven't shown up to school in ten days. Attendance is down five percent.

"We've tied what we're hearing to attendance," said principal Lenny Hoover.

An announcement was made to students that police cannot come into the school and seize them. "What I have noticed is a great deal of student mental diffidence about it," Hoover said. "They?re worried about it, and kids don?t worry about a lot."

[newbomb]

Well I guess big business is going to have to pay American workers living wages from now on. BOO HOO. They got rich with cheap illegal labor and have just about killed the middle class. Every one can't be a cubical dweller or office jerk. There are plenty of American workers who will do the work if they can earn a living wage. Why do you suppose there are so many guys cutting lawns? Because if you learn to do it well and run it right you can earn a good living and we all know its hard work.

[lawnpro724]

Yeah they should have passed the law a long time ago and the rest of the states should pass the law as well. I'm sick and tired of reading in our own paper about the number of illegals arrested then let go. What the f--k!!! Every state should pass laws, harsh laws on businesses who employee illegals and landlords who rent to illegals and they should be denied food stamps and medical benefits. I would also like to see something done about the kids of illegals. The second their born here they become a natural born citizen of the United State with all the rights that brings even if there parents just crossed the border a few minutes before. Illegals are not citizens of our country and deserve NO benefits from this country. We are not Mexico's welfare system!!!!

[capelawncare.com]

Kudos to the Gov of Az

[Az Gardener]

Kudos to the Gov of Az

The credit goes to a local politician and all around good citizen that drafted the bill and to the voters of the state that overwhelmingly approved the proposition in an election. The Governor had nothing to do with the law. Joe Arpaio is also doing a good job of putting the fear of the law into the illegals. The local citizens that are taking their time to protest and take photo's at the day labor pick up sites. It is a battlefield here and I drive past the battles almost every day.

My son is in a public school 4th grade, 9yrs old. Just last week had a Hispanic boy dropped into the classroom, can't speak the first word of English. What are his parents thinking and what is the teacher supposed to do with him? The kids are great about it though, my son wants to get the Rosetta stone software to learn Spanish real fast to help him out. I just want to beat the parents for putting him and everyone else in such a position.

[IA_James]

Screw 'em. They can go cut grass in their own country.

[joesimoes2]

That is a very complicated issue. we want them out if you think you pay to much for a gallon of milk know. wait until they are all gone. it will double it's price then the critics have to go milk the cow. you never thought of it that way I know:drinkup:

[lawnpro724]

That is a very complicated issue. we want them out if you think you pay to much for a gallon of milk know. wait until they are all gone. it will double it's price then the critics have to go milk the cow. you never thought of it that way I know:drinkup:

Yeah Right. I highly doubt that will happen. We were a lot better off before they ever got here and now your saying we can't survive without them? Maybe you should go live in Mexico. Illegals are costing our health care and education system billions of dollars every year and even more in job loss. There low priced labor just means the corporate fat cats can buy another mercedes or vacation house so if we get rid of them they will have to forgo the new house and pay a decent wage to Americans. OH and by the way milk is going up do the the cost of feed for cattle due to increasing use of bio fuels and the high cost of oil.

[patron]

The credit goes to a local politician and all around good citizen that drafted the bill and to the voters of the state that overwhelmingly approved the proposition in an election. The Governor had nothing to do with the law. Joe Arpaio is also doing a good job of putting the fear of the law into the illegals. The local citizens that are taking their time to protest and take photo's at the day labor pick up sites. It is a battlefield here

Hope it works out the way voter expected.
I began looking at this issue because of the failure of the h2b cap exemption passing for 2008.

My question is how will keeping my workers from returning to Ohio this year ( all 100 % legal) correct the problems you face in AZ ? I only ask because I don't understand what one has to do with the other. I know my beef is with congress but would like to hear what someone on the front lines thinks about it.

rb

[LawnTamer]

This is a tough issue facing our country. Many of the responses show a lack of thought, understanding and compassion. I don't say that to put down the posters, I used to think the same way. Then I actually got to know several illegal aliens, a whole family moved into our old neighborhood. I put myself in their shoes, and realized that if providence had placed me in their shoes, I would have done the same thing.

Be honest, you live in a country with a corrupt government, little to no economic opportunity, you and your kids are lucky to eat everyday and live in what we Americans would call a shack, your kids have no education, no opportunities.

Yet just to the North, there is another country in which you can build a future, your kids can learn to read and write, you can work, and make 10X as much money. There is only one problem, to enter this country legally requires more money and education than you could hope to earn and achieve. But, there are millions of people there just like you, who have entered illegally, and the government there does nothing about it. They are issued driver licenses and their kids go to school.
What would you do?
If you answer anything other than go there, I don't believe you, because I would be over the fence and across the Rio Grande faster than an Olympic athlete.

America needs to secure it's borders. But there needs to be a viable and equitable course set for those who have been allowed and encouraged to come here. A guest worker program of sorts, which actually works.

I would love to use immigrant labor, but it is near impossible to find legal immigrants.

[joesimoes2]

cattle due to increasing use of bio fuels and the high cost of oil.[/QUOTE]
You have a point there cows run on fuel:drinkup:

[AintNoFun]

Joe Arpaio is also doing a good job of putting the fear of the law into the illegals. .


is that the crazy sheriff out there, if it is he was my hero then and hes more or a hero now...

[IA_James]

This is a tough issue facing our country. Many of the responses show a lack of thought, understanding and compassion.

You are mistaken. I have thought quite a bit about this problem. And what it comes down to, is basically 3 things.

1. Do we want to enforce our own laws?

2. Is it worth it to me personally to change or ignore our own laws so that somebody doesn't have to do some paperwork?

3. Do I want to permit or condone a permanent underclass that will use social services all out of proportion, beat down the wage scale for legal earners, and don't really make any effort to assimilate?

The answer to #1 is yes, and the others no. I don't blame them for wanting to come here, I've been to Mexico and was happy to leave. But should we allow illegal immigrants to come here and screw our country up too? No. If I am not compassionate for wanting to have a country worth living in? If that's your only measure, then I guess so. But like anything else, there's more to it then just 1 measure.

[JRG Landscape]

That is a step in the right direction. I hope that all who use illegal workers take heed in what happened down there. If not, hope you get busted. For all of those who say Americans don't want to do the same stuff they do b.s. Pay a fair wage and people will work.

[lawnpro724]

cattle due to increasing use of bio fuels and the high cost of oil.
You have a point there cows run on fuel:drinkup:[/QUOTE]

Cattle feed is corn based and is increasing in cost due to increased competition from Ethanol production and high oil prices are driving up transportation costs which is in turn is increasing the cost of milk and everything else.

[LawnTamer]

You are mistaken. I have thought quite a bit about this problem. And what it comes down to, is basically 3 things.

1. Do we want to enforce our own laws?

2. Is it worth it to me personally to change or ignore our own laws so that somebody doesn't have to do some paperwork?

3. Do I want to permit or condone a permanent underclass that will use social services all out of proportion, beat down the wage scale for legal earners, and don't really make any effort to assimilate?

The answer to #1 is yes, and the others no. I don't blame them for wanting to come here, I've been to Mexico and was happy to leave. But should we allow illegal immigrants to come here and screw our country up too? No. If I am not compassionate for wanting to have a country worth living in? If that's your only measure, then I guess so. But like anything else, there's more to it then just 1 measure.

I will accept your first point. The problem is that the U.S. has made a conscious decision to ignore the problems with immigration law, in favor of simply allowing illegal immigration, there are many reasons for this, one of the key reasons is an attempt to hide the deficit in Social Security, (most illegals pay into SS using a false SS#, but do not collect or intend to collect SS benefits.) Is it fair and just to destroy millions of lives because we have changed our mind?

Your second question isn't realistic, fair or objective. If legal residence in the U.S. was obtained by simply "doing some paperwork" 99% of illegals would do it in a heartbeat. I have a good friend who was raised in the U.S. since he was 8, he is completely fluent in English and college educated, he is an Eagle Scout and as fine a man as I've known. When he was 14, his parents improperly filled out the renewal for his residency permit. Though he came here legally and has a valid visa, for him to become legal, he would need to return to Uruguay and wait for 10 yrs to reapply. In dealing with an immigration attorney, trying to help him, I have learned that this is par for the course.

Your third question is couched in a common misconception which has been perpetuated about every wave of immigration our country has seen: Irish, German, Italian, Chinese, Slavic, etc. etc. The idea that they will remain a 2nd class group, who will never assimilate, and will always drive down wages just isn't true for any of these groups, and it isn't true for Hispanics either. Current sociology studies show that Hispanic immigrants follow the same generational learning curve as have their immigrant predecessors from other parts of the world. A second generation Hispanic immigrant will speak some Spanish, but will identify English as their primary language, third generation Hispanics will speak very little Spanish.

[Az Gardener]

My question is how will keeping my workers from returning to Ohio this year ( all 100 % legal) correct the problems you face in AZ ? I only ask because I don't understand what one has to do with the other. I know my beef is with congress but would like to hear what someone on the front lines thinks about it.

I don't think one has anything to do with the other. I respect the companies that are using the H2B program. I know thats no picnic jumping through those hoops. Its the illegals and the contractors that hire them that are the problem.

I don't claim to be holy-er than thou. I too have used illegals in the past I am not proud of it and they certainly did not make me rich. I made a commitment to stop using illegals a while back and it has been the best thing for my company.

Yes, Joe is that crazy sheriff down here and as long as you stay on the right side of the law he is your savior. If you end up on the wrong side to any degree or by accident he is a bastard. Just depends on your point of view, I have seen both sides of the fence and still like him here.

[topsites]

Touchy my butt, I think we ought to deploy an army of mech robots trained on destroying all illegals if they don't leave within 72 hours, you want to talk Panic, these mofos ain't seen panic until one of these 6000-rounds a minute master robots gets up on their butt.

I'm sick and tired of it, they take our jobs, they eat our food, they live in our houses and yet they act like they're the ones in bad shape so they need our HELP?

Excuse ME but if their butt hadn't broke the LAW by sneaking across an international border under cover perhaps they would not HAVE a problem and if they did at least they wouldn't have the nerve to ask me for it!
Because that's just a crock for a criminal to come around woe is me, gimme a break.

Cold hearted?
I am fully convinced they are responsible for our current state of affairs, and all illegal immigrants are criminals.
Yeah yeah it may not be ALL their fault, but they sure ain't helping none (and they're still criminals lol).

More than a few take advantage of government help programs such as welfare and unemployment yet they don't pay taxes so all of them they take and take and give nothing back!
Oh yeah ok maybe some they pay taxes, but they still take our unskilled labor jobs and then some!

whoa, cool off me

I used to think the same way. Then I actually got to know several illegal aliens, a whole family moved into our old neighborhood. I put myself in their shoes, and realized that if providence had placed me in their shoes, I would have done the same thing.

Yeah but that's horse crap too just because if I get to know a murderer who is in prison doing Life without Parole I too will see that if providence had placed me in his shoes I likely would've done the same thing but it still don't make it right.

Now I understand things are bad in Mexico but this is all just that same old song and dance tale of woe the losers of this world have been using on the better off since the dawn of time! I'm not saying all Mexicans or all immigrants in America are bad people, but anyone who is here illegally can just pack up and leave before I get any HOTter with the mechbot idea.

Here, send an army of deez after them :laugh:

[IA_James]

I will accept your first point. The problem is that the U.S. has made a conscious decision to ignore the problems with immigration law, in favor of simply allowing illegal immigration, there are many reasons for this, one of the key reasons is an attempt to hide the deficit in Social Security, (most illegals pay into SS using a false SS#, but do not collect or intend to collect SS benefits.) Is it fair and just to destroy millions of lives because we have changed our mind?

Your second question isn't realistic, fair or objective. If legal residence in the U.S. was obtained by simply "doing some paperwork" 99% of illegals would do it in a heartbeat. I have a good friend who was raised in the U.S. since he was 8, he is completely fluent in English and college educated, he is an Eagle Scout and as fine a man as I've known. When he was 14, his parents improperly filled out the renewal for his residency permit. Though he came here legally and has a valid visa, for him to become legal, he would need to return to Uruguay and wait for 10 yrs to reapply. In dealing with an immigration attorney, trying to help him, I have learned that this is par for the course.

Your third question is couched in a common misconception which has been perpetuated about every wave of immigration our country has seen: Irish, German, Italian, Chinese, Slavic, etc. etc. The idea that they will remain a 2nd class group, who will never assimilate, and will always drive down wages just isn't true for any of these groups, and it isn't true for Hispanics either. Current sociology studies show that Hispanic immigrants follow the same generational learning curve as have their immigrant predecessors from other parts of the world. A second generation Hispanic immigrant will speak some Spanish, but will identify English as their primary language, third generation Hispanics will speak very little Spanish.

Bottom to top, just because I feel like it.

3. It's not a misconception. I live in a packing plant town. The wages at the plant have been stagnant for 20+ years. Coincidentally, I'm sure, that's about the time they began recruiting in Mexico. There were no Mexican grocery, resturaunt, etc etc in town. Now there are about 10. We used to have one of the best school districts in the state. Last year we made GW's "Failing Schools List". Even if you leave all of that out, I'm not inclined to have the wage base of MY COUNTRY beaten down for 30 years until they figure out how this place works.

2. If his parents weren't so damn cheap, they could have had somebody fill out the forms properly. Someone else's inability to comprehend a form isn't my lookout. If I don't understand something that's even the least little bit important, I have somebody look at it that can translate it into Knucklehead for me. Quite frankly, I don't care about your friend.

I repeat. It's our country. Why should we destroy what's left of the economy that hasn't been shipped overseas so that NON-CITIZENS can work here for less money?

[patron]

I am not proud of it and they certainly did not make me rich. I made a commitment to stop using illegals a while back and it has been the best thing for my company.

Sound sort of like quiting smoking.

Could elaborate on the pros and cons of using this type of help?

Should you not want to answer I understand too.

[Chilehead]

Good for them, besides, immigrants don't have RIGHTS---CITIZENS have RIGHTS!

[LawnTamer]

Quite frankly, I don't care about your friend.


I wouldn't expect you to, he is Hispanic. But if your insurance company wouldn't pay for a necessary operation for one of your kids, or your friends because someone had entered a birth date on the wrong line of an insurance form- I would care.

Here is non anecdotal info on Hispanic assimilation.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/11/AR2006061100922.html


Despite claims to the contrary, census data show that most Latino immigrants learn and speak English quite well. Only about 2.5 percent of American residents speak Spanish but not English. The majority of residents of Spanish-speaking households speak English "very well."

Only 7 percent of the children of Latino immigrants speak Spanish as a primary language, and virtually none of their children do. Just as they did a century ago, immigrants largely come knowing little English. But they learn, and their children use it as a primary language. The United States is not becoming a bilingual nation.


BTW

Topsites,
Your last post on this subject was right up to your usual intellectual standard, keep up the good work.:laugh:

[IA_James]

I wouldn't expect you to, he is Hispanic. But if your insurance company wouldn't pay for a necessary operation for one of your kids, or your friends because someone had entered a birth date on the wrong line of an insurance form- I would care.

Here is non anecdotal info on Hispanic assimilation.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/11/AR2006061100922.html



BTW

Topsites,
Your last post on this subject was right up to your usual intellectual standard, keep up the good work.:laugh:


I wouldn't care if he was purple w/ pink polka dots, the fact is he is here illegally.

[LawnTamer]

I wouldn't care if he was purple w/ pink polka dots, the fact is he is here illegally.

I believe you, I apologize. I jumped to a conclusion and should not have.
I am sorry.

Illegal, or not, I still have a very soft spot for my friend, and many like him. In my experience most of them are very generous and wonderful people. When I read posts like the one by Topsites, I get a little touchy.
I applaud him though for his imagination, if nothing else, 6,000 rounds/minute 40' INS robots, you can't dream this stuff up sober.

[IA_James]

I believe you, I apologize. I jumped to a conclusion and should not have.
I am sorry.

Illegal, or not, I still have a very soft spot for my friend, and many like him. In my experience most of them are very generous and wonderful people. When I read posts like the one by Topsites, I get a little touchy.
I applaud him though for his imagination, if nothing else, 6,000 rounds/minute 40' INS robots, you can't dream this stuff up sober.

Yeah, he gets in the sauce and gets on here and who knows what he'll type. If nothing else, it's sort of a "how not to post" guide. Also, I could have phrased my opinion of your friends status here more delicately. I also apologize.

[Az Gardener]

Sound sort of like quiting smoking.

Could elaborate on the pros and cons of using this type of help?

Should you not want to answer I understand too.

The only pro I found is it was easy to find and handle the help.

The cons were many, mistakes and damaged equipment. Feeling guilty because I was part of the problem. The worst was when my 80 + year old grandma had to wait 8 hours in an emergency room and we appeared to be the only citizens there.

[Johnson LCO]

I seem to remember when the United States stood up and fought for our rights back in the 1700s against the british. Back then when we didnt like how things were going did we run to the nearest border?
No, we stood as a nation to fight for our rights and frankly I think that if Mexico is so corrupt (I agree with you) then the citizens need to fight for it. Imagine if every border jumper instead decided to attempt to change the status quo, there would be millions upon millions of people not to mention everyone else who currently resides in Mexico and does not like their current state of affairs.
I think it is sad that they do not have enough pride to stand up for their own country and instead run away. Obviously change will take awhile but they need to improve conditions in their own country instead of running to another.
With that mentality Americans would be running straight for Canada the second time Bush was put in office:)

[jeffex]

This is what we need to spread across the country. Our spineless leaders don't have the political will to enforce our current laws. Taneytown Md has decided NOT to become a sanctuary city by letting it be publicly known. They have been critized for being "racist" but they are simply protecting themselves from ILLEGALS overwhelming their schools, hospitals, and social services. LEGAL people of all national origin are welcome. Tanneytown has cheaper housing for Carrol County and is a great area to raise children. that is what attracted the illegals in the first place. they want what WE want but they skipped a very important step in the process. Lets hope this type of action reverses the tide of illegals and gives them an incentive to go back home and start over with proper naturalization and immigration process. the failure by our so called leaders to act on a process to identify and register illegals and put them on a path to citizenship has put the power back in the hands of each state. The ones with the forsight and balls to do something are!!!thank GOD. There are predatory un American people who want to organize illegals as a political voting block in sanctuary states like Maryland to help them maintain current power. Like our new Gov. they are whores willing to sleep with anyone who votes for them reguardless of their illegal status. One day , in certain cities, we (lazy appathetic Americans) will wake up and be a minority in our own country to a majority of illegals who were given citizenship by traitors to our country. The illegals will take whatever they can get and vote illegally for whoever promises them a piece of the American dream. YOUR American dream !!! Hello! Roman Empire -sorry we're closed WAKE UP AMERICA we are under attack by a people who is ready and willing to work hard for the American dream . Your lazy kids better learn how to work because they can't all be CEOs and Bureaucrats . Register them to VOTE because the illegals are!!!!!

[grasswhacker]

This is what we need to spread across the country. Our spineless leaders don't have the political will to enforce our current laws. Taneytown Md has decided NOT to become a sanctuary city by letting it be publicly known. They have been critized for being "racist" but they are simply protecting themselves from ILLEGALS overwhelming their schools, hospitals, and social services. LEGAL people of all national origin are welcome. Tanneytown has cheaper housing for Carrol County and is a great area to raise children. that is what attracted the illegals in the first place. they want what WE want but they skipped a very important step in the process. Lets hope this type of action reverses the tide of illegals and gives them an incentive to go back home and start over with proper naturalization and immigration process. the failure by our so called leaders to act on a process to identify and register illegals and put them on a path to citizenship has put the power back in the hands of each state. The ones with the forsight and balls to do something are!!!thank GOD. There are predatory un American people who want to organize illegals as a political voting block in sanctuary states like Maryland to help them maintain current power. Like our new Gov. they are whores willing to sleep with anyone who votes for them reguardless of their illegal status. One day , in certain cities, we (lazy appathetic Americans) will wake up and be a minority in our own country to a majority of illegals who were given citizenship by traitors to our country. The illegals will take whatever they can get and vote illegally for whoever promises them a piece of the American dream. YOUR American dream !!! Hello! Roman Empire -sorry we're closed WAKE UP AMERICA we are under attack by a people who is ready and willing to work hard for the American dream . Your lazy kids better learn how to work because they can't all be CEOs and Bureaucrats . Register them to VOTE because the illegals are!!!!!

Bravo :clapping:

[NORTHMAN]

Most illegals and many legal immigrants don't want to stay here,they want to make money,send it to "My Country"go back and live like kings.We made it before with out them,we can make it again.Its the fault of the government and the people that hire them,its greed.

[jeffex]

I am on a campaign to get my son (19) and his friends to register to vote. He showed me his card proudly when he got it in the mail. Its his generations America that is at risk. While their busy texting each other their way of life is slipping away. Their Job pool is getting shallower wages and filling with illegals. I know they don't want to hear it but if we wait for them to do it on their own it will be too late. Remind them that a patriot is not just from New England!!!!

[patron]

Good for them, besides, immigrants don't have RIGHTS---CITIZENS have RIGHTS!

That might look nice on a bumper sticker. The fact is anyone on US soil has rights. What kind of country would we be if only citizen were protected under the bill of rights. Think about it one set of laws for citizens and one for tourists? What a mess.

[grasswhacker]

That might look nice on a bumper sticker. The fact is anyone on US soil has rights. What kind of country would we be if only citizen were protected under the bill of rights. Think about it one set of laws for citizens and one for tourists? What a mess.

Only U.S. citizens have constitutional rights. Only U.S. citizens are protected by the Bill of rights. Non-citizens and illegal aliens may be allowed privledges in our country, but have no rights, execept basic human rights.

[mowranger]

Lets think about why our gov is not is a big hurry to take action! If you have just 1 million Illegals with fake ssn #'s and employers take out just $1000 a year in taxes $500 in social security for each one and these are just pfa (plucked from air) numbers that would be $1,000,000,000 in fed taxes $500,000,000 that would not have to be sent back to anybody! Would you get in a hurry to make a move?

[patron]

Only U.S. citizens have constitutional rights. Only U.S. citizens are protected by the Bill of rights. Non-citizens and illegal aliens may be allowed privledges in our country, but have no rights, execept basic human rights.

Try "you have the right to remain silent"

Non citizen and illegals don't?

I'm no lawyer, I don't play one on TV, but that may be a constitutional right?

[DavidR]

This is a tough issue facing our country. Many of the responses show a lack of thought, understanding and compassion. I don't say that to put down the posters, I used to think the same way. Then I actually got to know several illegal aliens, a whole family moved into our old neighborhood. I put myself in their shoes, and realized that if providence had placed me in their shoes, I would have done the same thing.

Be honest, you live in a country with a corrupt government, little to no economic opportunity, you and your kids are lucky to eat everyday and live in what we Americans would call a shack, your kids have no education, no opportunities.

Yet just to the North, there is another country in which you can build a future, your kids can learn to read and write, you can work, and make 10X as much money. There is only one problem, to enter this country legally requires more money and education than you could hope to earn and achieve. But, there are millions of people there just like you, who have entered illegally, and the government there does nothing about it. They are issued driver licenses and their kids go to school.
What would you do?
If you answer anything other than go there, I don't believe you, because I would be over the fence and across the Rio Grande faster than an Olympic athlete.

America needs to secure it's borders. But there needs to be a viable and equitable course set for those who have been allowed and encouraged to come here. A guest worker program of sorts, which actually works.

I would love to use immigrant labor, but it is near impossible to find legal immigrants.

This is a tough subject and has basically been avoided by our politicians due to concerns like the issues you have raised. The bottom line is that their is a way for aliens to enter our country legally. I think it is far to easy to forget that these are ILLEGAL aliens. What they have done is just like any other crime. It is illegal to enter the county without first completing the necessary paperwork. I think it is a mistake for you to assume that anybody that promotes the new law of Az. is to quick to pass judgement.

I applaud the government of Arizona for making this law and would like to see other polititians grow a pair and incorporate similar laws. Forget building a huge fence, threaten the employers. I think this state has shown how effective this is.

[grasswhacker]

Try "you have the right to remain silent"

Non citizen and illegals don't?

I'm no lawyer, I don't play one on TV, but that may be a constitutional right?

They may be read Miranda, but are not entitled to those rights.

Amendment 14 - Citizenship Rights

1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

[P-Green]

It's the same old America,about the dollar.As long as powers to be are making money off them,nothing is going to change until enough people raise hell or it starts to dig in their pocket.

[jrgillabs]

OH and by the way milk is going up do the the cost of feed for cattle due to increasing use of bio fuels and the high cost of oil.

And the laws being passed and major grocery store bans, to prevent the use of Steroids on cows now, so they have to produce naturally, which means less quantity, better quality, which means higher prices.

[patron]

They may be read Miranda, but are not entitled to those rights.

Amendment 14 - Citizenship Rights

1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

That's all well an good but does not support your assertion.
Are they read miranda because it's cool or because in the usa here on this soil everyone with out regard to status has rights.

Try this one can police search a house with out a warrant based on the occupants legal status?
Cop #1: Should we get a warrant ?
Cop #2: Hell no bust in the door their not citizens ?

[jrgillabs]

Let's not forget that this country was founded by immigrants! Not to say that they should be given anything for free, but for those who come here, obide by the laws and try to make somehting of themselves for the greater good of their family, what gives us the right to say, screw them send them back? If that was done to our ancestors, none of us would be here now. I don't condone illegals "stealing" jobs by any means, but if American Citizens were willing to work for a fair wage and not always looking for free handouts, that wouldn't be an issue. All I hear is people talking about how they can't find work and they have to collect unemployment until something comes along,(and yes, some of them are family members of mine) but yet I see help wanted signs all over the place, but when I ask these people "why not go and work at McDonalds or someplace like that which IS hiring, until something better comes along?" the answers I get are "There's no way am I going to work someplace like that!" Are you freaking kidding me? Your too good to work for an honest wage, but not too good to sit home and collect unemployment? So where else do these companies have to get workers? Unfortunately they have a business to run and if the only people willing to work there are immigrants trying to make it here, than who are we to tell these businesses not to make money, since our own citizens are too lazy and "too good" to work there. There have to be better policies in place to make immigrants want to do things the right way, but unfortunately our goverment isn't willing to run on the principles of our founding fathers anymore, everything is run like a corporation, and money controls everything. If you think our economy is in a schambles now, go ahead and deport all non-U.S. citizens and see what happens when companies are going out of business left and right because our unemployment is too easy to get and people are too lazy or "too good" to work those jobs, or better yet are "worth more than what that job pays" even though it's more than they get for unemployment. Sorry for the rant, that's just my 2 cents, take it for what it's worth.

[AintNoFun]

but they are draining the schools, hospitals etc. they dont pay for $hit so im sure for whatever they are kicking in they are collecting in other ways..



Lets think about why our gov is not is a big hurry to take action! If you have just 1 million Illegals with fake ssn #'s and employers take out just $1000 a year in taxes $500 in social security for each one and these are just pfa (plucked from air) numbers that would be $1,000,000,000 in fed taxes $500,000,000 that would not have to be sent back to anybody! Would you get in a hurry to make a move?

[Stillwater]

Courageous Arizona ! good for them almost makes me want to move their. Illegal immigrants SHOULD BE AFRAID. Their disrespecting the American people by ignoring our laws.

[The Ripper]

Just to enlight you all the mexicans were in Arizona before the americans were there. It seems like you all are forgetting that key point. Arizona, California, New Mexico, and Florida were all originally spanish owned, and there has always been mexicans there since the states were created. This is not something new it is the way it has always been.

My idea is to seal off the whole border. Then create three entry points (one for each state that is adjacent to mexico. We need to allow non fellons with a job request from a US company to come to the US for up to nine months a year with their families, and make them pay taxes while they are here. These taxes would pay for the immigration service and border patrol costs and all costs associated with the guest worker program.

It would be a done deal.

Mexicans are the hardest working people I have ever met. I have gone through over 30 American born workers this past year, and only one of them was a decent employee. However, out of the blue he took a work truck for a joy rider and two cases of beer. Which ended his employment with our firm. The rest didn't show up to work, complained all the time, drank did drugs and had absolutely no common sense.

[steve5966]

There is a direction to look at this that has not been done on here, or anywhere else I have seen.

The unemployment rate in this country as of last December is 5.0% or 7.7 million people. The number of illegals in this country is around 12 million, of this number, how many are employed? I can't find a number to put to it, but let's assume 40% are working one way or another. 4.8 million illegals working and paying taxes or not.
Of the 7.7 million unemployed, 24.2% or 1,863,400 people are on temporary lay-off or voluntary unemployment. This leaves 5.84 million people unemployed. Now if we subtract the unemployed(finance, health, information, education and government) that would not work the jobs currently held by illegal immigrants. This leaves us with, 3.62 million unemployed Americans that could be working these jobs. Of these people we can only guess how many would be willing to take the jobs.

I am making an assumption on the number of illegals that are working (4.8 million) and I think the number is higher. We have never had a unemployment rate even close to 0%, which makes the American worker to job ratio even worse. If all illegals are gone, who will work these jobs. It won't matter what the pay is if their isn't a person to do the job.

All my employment numbers come from http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.toc.htm

[IA_James]

The only problem with your theory is that when filling out your paperwork, if you aren't actively looking for work, then you aren't unemployed. You still don't have a job, but you aren't unemployed. How many of those people have thrown their hands up? Are planning a move somewhere else? Mowing lawns for cash with their Home Depot Poulan? Nobody really knows, because they don't keep track of it. There are alot more people actually unemployed, that would like to have a job, but for whatever reason checked "not actively looking for work" on their last survey thingy.

[patron]

Just to enlight you all the mexicans were in Arizona before the americans were there. It seems like you all are forgetting that key point. Arizona, California, New Mexico, and Florida were all originally spanish owned, and there has always been mexicans there since the states were created. This is not something new it is the way it has always been.

My idea is to seal off the whole border. Then create three entry points (one for each state that is adjacent to mexico. We need to allow non fellons with a job request from a US company to come to the US for up to nine months a year with their families, and make them pay taxes while they are here. These taxes would pay for the immigration service and border patrol costs and all costs associated with the guest worker program.

It would be a done deal.

Mexicans are the hardest working people I have ever met. I have gone through over 30 American born workers this past year, and only one of them was a decent employee. However, out of the blue he took a work truck for a joy rider and two cases of beer. Which ended his employment with our firm. The rest didn't show up to work, complained all the time, drank did drugs and had absolutely no common sense.

You have a very good plan and it makes a lot of sense.
so it will never happen. the gov would have nothing to fix.

[steve5966]

James, my post is not a theory. These are numbers from the government. The only numbers i can't support with statistics are the number of illegals in this country and how many are actually working.

[jeffex]

right now illegals ARE contributing to fica and SS by hi-jacking someone else's SS #. Employers are looking the other way when a non-English speaking worker shows up with a SS # he/she can put on their paperwork. They can claim ignorance or " its not my job to check these things". They know full well that these #s are Bs but they feel they covered their a$$. The problem is down the road when these illegals gain the political clout to tap into the SS system and have lawyers and AFLCIO commies trying to get them money. Oh yeah , by the way, for a FEE. Then they will be competing with those of us who paid into the system for a lifetime for benefits!!!!

[DavidR]

The problem is down the road when these illegals gain the political clout to tap into the SS system and have lawyers and AFLCIO commies trying to get them money. Oh yeah , by the way, for a FEE. Then they will be competing with those of us who paid into the system for a lifetime for benefits!!!!

You are exactly right. Millions of illegal aliens contribute money to the SS system although they do not receive any of these funds. For all you workers approaching retirement, these workers are part of what is keeping the system afloat. When they go, so does the liquidity of the system.

WOW...social security, another government system that doesn't work. My question is, when will the first candidate run for office the plans to do away with the social security system? Of course this question is only hypothetical...at least for now. There will be a day.

[IA_James]

James, my post is not a theory. These are numbers from the government. The only numbers i can't support with statistics are the number of illegals in this country and how many are actually working.

No, there are 3 numbers you can't support with statistics.

1. Actual number of illegals.
2. Actual number of employed illegals.
3. Actual number of unemployed citizens.

The government doesn't count you as unemployed if by it's criteria you aren't looking for work. The true number of unemployed people who would like to work in the States is unknown, but generally considered to be quite a bit higher than the number the government puts out. And if you don't know all 3 numbers, then we can argue till the Resurrection, and the truth of the matter will always be that neither one of use really knows the truth.

[topsites]

Let's not forget that this country was founded by immigrants! Not to say that they should be given anything for free, but for those who come here, obide by the laws


There exists a process for immigration that involves filing and paperwork and registration and more all to do with the U.S. Department of Immigration. Yes it is a lengthy pita process, I will not deny that, but shirking this duty and then promising they'll follow the rules just isn't going to work! Sure we allowed it to happen and in ways I am sure we probably brought it on ourselves, fine, so be it, but enough is enough.

Because this process for immigration involves some things that must be done, steps to be completed, and so long this process is completed in the proper manner and all of the requirements are met for any one to enter the United States, and then a person is allowed to enter the United States legally because they have completed the steps and did it the way it's supposed to be done, these folks I have no problem with.

No it's not every immigrant, those who are properly registered with the INS they can not and will not deport because they are allowed to be here, these folks do not pose neither threat nor problem and that is what I speak of.

So running across the border with paperwork that looks 100% perfect as good as the real thing but is still fake paperwork, that I do not believe we should tolerate. Because if they ran across the border under cover of night and now are claiming they'll follow the rules that is not going to work because the problem is these folks entered the United States illegally.

Either they're here legally or they're not.

[lot0210]

Love it and thank God this is happening in other states as well in Oklahoma for instance. Since it is working in these states than other states will inact other laws just like them and soon the only place for illegals to go is the Peoples Republic of California and I do not consider it a state so... Like I said this is a set of legislation that will within 20 be seen through in all 48 continuous states.
:usflag:

[Stillwater]

A Must See

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kcprUAq6YQ

[lot0210]

LOL if only

[B_gerrits]

Touchy my butt, I think we ought to deploy an army of mech robots trained on destroying all illegals if they don't leave within 72 hours, you want to talk Panic, these mofos ain't seen panic until one of these 6000-rounds a minute master robots gets up on their butt.

I'm sick and tired of it, they take our jobs, they eat our food, they live in our houses and yet they act like they're the ones in bad shape so they need our HELP?

Excuse ME but if their butt hadn't broke the LAW by sneaking across an international border under cover perhaps they would not HAVE a problem and if they did at least they wouldn't have the nerve to ask me for it!
Because that's just a crock for a criminal to come around woe is me, gimme a break.

Cold hearted?
I am fully convinced they are responsible for our current state of affairs, and all illegal immigrants are criminals.
Yeah yeah it may not be ALL their fault, but they sure ain't helping none (and they're still criminals lol).

More than a few take advantage of government help programs such as welfare and unemployment yet they don't pay taxes so all of them they take and take and give nothing back!
Oh yeah ok maybe some they pay taxes, but they still take our unskilled labor jobs and then some!

whoa, cool off me



Yeah but that's horse crap too just because if I get to know a murderer who is in prison doing Life without Parole I too will see that if providence had placed me in his shoes I likely would've done the same thing but it still don't make it right.

Now I understand things are bad in Mexico but this is all just that same old song and dance tale of woe the losers of this world have been using on the better off since the dawn of time! I'm not saying all Mexicans or all immigrants in America are bad people, but anyone who is here illegally can just pack up and leave before I get any HOTter with the mechbot idea.

Here, send an army of deez after them :laugh:

I like it. But it would be more fun to get jeeps with 50 cals mounted on them and eraticat them ourselves.

[B_gerrits]

The only pro I found is it was easy to find and handle the help.

The cons were many, mistakes and damaged equipment. Feeling guilty because I was part of the problem. The worst was when my 80 + year old grandma had to wait 8 hours in an emergency room and we appeared to be the only citizens there.

They fill the emergency rooms because the hospitals can't refuse services and they take the medical for free(on the tax payer) we actually have one hospital going out of business here because of this practice.

[topsites]

I like it. But it would be more fun to get jeeps with 50 cals mounted on them and eraticat them ourselves.

It wasn't eradication I had in mind exactly as that would be a last resort, but a show of enough force to convince any doubters that we mean business. Now of course there are always some who will test you, for these I figured the bots would make it so I don't have to get my hands dirty or fool with it because I get tired of it, but if you're more the DIY kind of guy why by all means lol

[steve5966]

"They fill the emergency rooms because the hospitals can't refuse services and they take the medical for free(on the tax payer) we actually have one hospital going out of business here because of this practice."

Which one is it? Tax payer paying the bill, which would make it a government hospital that wouldn't close because the taxpayer supports it. Or is it a private hospital that could close because bills aren't paid.

Think about the problem before you place the blame.

[IA_James]

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C07E6D8163EF932A1575BC0A9629C8B63
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43275
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/12/26/170334.shtml
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071011184107AA4dXsY
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-01-21-immigrant-healthcare_N.htm?csp=34
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClBiKD3tF4I

Medicare reimbursements, depending on the state, range from great to god-awful. It just depends on the numbers they punch into their widget. Strangely enough, the states with more representatives get a higher rate than the states with fewer. Medicare obviously comes out of the pocket of the taxpayer. It shows up in higher hospital bills caused by non-payment, and in cases where they are able to be reimbursed by the government it is often nowhere near what the service actually cost.

[B_gerrits]

"They fill the emergency rooms because the hospitals can't refuse services and they take the medical for free(on the tax payer) we actually have one hospital going out of business here because of this practice."

Which one is it? Tax payer paying the bill, which would make it a government hospital that wouldn't close because the taxpayer supports it. Or is it a private hospital that could close because bills aren't paid.

Think about the problem before you place the blame.

It's kinda wierd how they work hospitals here apparently if a person is unisured Medi Cal pays the bill however they pay the hospital the amount they deem fair. Sutter hospital claims it was 7 million in the red because of the amount of uninsured patients they were forced to care for by the state. While not all of the unisured patients were Mexi's I will say this, when we had Blue Cross insurance my wife had an operation at Sutter and I kid you not the ratio was 10 to 1 Hispanic patients. We actually switched Insurance to Kaiser which is a private medical service. Kaiser is not open to the public if you do not have Kaiser insurance you don't go to Kaiser. Because Kaiser is private the state can't make them treat the uninsured guess what guys I hardly ever see Hispanics at Kaiser.

[badassgrass]

I wonder what the Native Americans are saying about most of us?

[IA_James]

I wonder what the Native Americans are saying about most of us?

Please send more wampum.

[IA_James]

Why the White man failed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Indian Chief 'Two Eagles' was asked by a white government official, 'You have observed the white man for 90 years. You've seen his wars and his technological advances. You've seen his progress, and the damage he's done.' The Chief nodded in agreement.
The official continued, 'Considering all these events, in your opinion, wh ere did the white man go wrong?'

The Chief stared at the government official for over a minute and then calmly replied. 'When white man find land, Indians running it, no taxes, no debt, plenty buffalo, plenty beaver, clean water. Women did all the work, Medicine man free. Indian man spend all day hunting and fishing; all night having sex.'

Then the chief leaned back and smiled. 'Only white man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that.'

[B_gerrits]

Funny you bring up the native American. The biggest mistake they made was helping us out. We repaid them by slaughtering them and stealing their property. History repeats itself do we really want to let a forgien people invade our country in mass numbers all in the name of cheap labor? We may be next joining the indians.

[jeffex]

illegals are the modern day trojan horse. Let into our country by greedy employers willing to look the other way.

[IA_James]

illegals are the modern day trojan horse. Let into our country by greedy employers willing to look the other way.

The horse they ride in is free trade and cheap labor.