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Mike M
01-29-2008, 11:55 PM
That is going on my next post card.

Nobody knows what bluetooth is but boy does it sell stuff when it's enabled.

My customers are asking about LED's. They don't know shot about halogen, but they know Bush had an LED Christmas tree this year. They equate LED language with low wattage/low volts/state of the art, and they want it.

I'm sticking my neck out and I predict I will do well.

Arthur P.
for Mike M.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-30-2008, 02:51 AM
Go for it Mike. If you want to give me a call some evening I will be happy to share with you all that I know. If you just want some resources I can help direct you to some.

There is a lot to understand, and there are still limitations. New stuff is always in the tube and things are changing rapidly. Be upfront and knowledgable with your clients and let them make informed and comparative decisions for them selves.

Have a great day.

Pro-Scapes
01-30-2008, 06:21 AM
I have been experimenting with LED's here at home. I know james has had good luck with them. I caution you about a few things.

Do not over warrant your Diodes. like anything bleeding edge there could be some unseen snafus.

Color temp is something you and your clients need to see. its close... but the light is a whole new breed to work with. Before you market them I suggest you get several and play at your house. We will see some new ones end of feb in fla mike. I still have yet to see a spot light with a 35w output capability. I like what I see so far but im not ready to offer them yet.

Mike M
01-30-2008, 08:14 AM
Do not over warrant your Diodes. like anything bleeding edge there could be some unseen snafus.

I don't know what that means, but if it has to do with burning my privates on fixtures I'll be careful, thanks.

As far as technology, it pays to research and position yourself early in the market.

I heard why LED retro's are a technological flop from the start.

Billy's experiment with an MR compatible spot light may be the most significant thing we see on lawnsite. As soon as we have a good comparison, the question won't be should you add on LED's to your line, it will more like be whether you replace halogen and how quickly can you begin a campaign to get the word out.

Arthur P for Mike M. Providing professionally forum reading and reply services to save you time and make you look like a professional.

steveparrott
01-30-2008, 10:34 AM
Careful guys, the leading mfg of bright white LED chips just had a major recall of their latest and greatest.

Pro-Scapes
01-30-2008, 11:04 AM
Careful guys, the leading mfg of bright white LED chips just had a major recall of their latest and greatest.

like i said... might be a tad early. i expect them to go full scale sometime this year with them best of them to be fixtures designed especially for LED use. James has been having pretty good luck with them but i dont think he can do 35w halogen effects yet.

irrig8r
01-30-2008, 12:11 PM
Careful guys, the leading mfg of bright white LED chips just had a major recall of their latest and greatest.

Must be referring to this article:

http://www.ledsmagazine.com/news/5/1/19

dglights
01-30-2008, 02:36 PM
Lumileds considered the leading LED manufacturer? Their history of over promising and under delivering is now capped off by a major recall and stop in production. This is not the first time the K2 has been a major dissapointment and we can now add the rebel. There are at least 4 leading LED manufacturers but I would not consider Lumileds to be one of them.
I advise everyone to consult a relieable and experienced source when considering LED products. In my opinion we should embrace this technology and make it right for what we do. Using products such as LED MR16 dropins is just wrong. With landscape lighting we have our own needs and unique requirements and we shouldn't have to make due with what's available from other industries.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-30-2008, 02:47 PM
Careful guys, the leading mfg of bright white LED chips just had a major recall of their latest and greatest.

Steve. I recall reading that press release. The recall was do to a packaging issue.

Seems to me that CAST could send out a few recalls based on some of the packaging issues I have experienced here! :laugh: (Just having fun with you!)

JoeyD
01-30-2008, 02:50 PM
Using products such as LED MR16 dropins is just wrong. With landscape lighting we have our own needs and unique requirements and we shouldn't have to make due with what's available from other industries.

:clapping::clapping:

For some reason some think I am coming way out of left field when I make this statement.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-30-2008, 02:53 PM
Lumileds considered the leading LED manufacturer? Their history of over promising and under delivering is now capped off by a major recall and stop in production. This is not the first time the K2 has been a major dissapointment and we can now add the rebel. There are at least 4 leading LED manufacturers but I would not consider Lumileds to be one of them.
I advise everyone to consult a relieable and experienced source when considering LED products. In my opinion we should embrace this technology and make it right for what we do. Using products such as LED MR16 dropins is just wrong. With landscape lighting we have our own needs and unique requirements and we shouldn't have to make due with what's available from other industries.

Doug.

Have you got your products listed with ULc or CSA or any other Canadian Standard yet? If not, do you plan on doing so? I would appreciate receiving some samples (not the whole line!) when you have an opportunity.

As for painting all LED MR16 lamp modules with the same brush.... well lets just say I would not be so quick to generalize as you seem to be. There are some quality units on the market and more, newer, better, stronger currently in development. I wouldn't call using them making due if they fully meet your criteria and specifications in a given application.

Regards.

dglights
01-30-2008, 07:08 PM
Ok, maybe you have something I haven't seen.

What is the LED junction temp running in your application?
What's the control circuit running?
What is the written warranty provided by the manufacturer that specifically covers being installed inside your landscape fixture?

As a manufacturer you have to consider worse case scenario. What works in sub-zero temperatures might fail quickly in Arizona.
Who's Doug?

irrig8r
01-30-2008, 09:16 PM
Yeah, who is Doug?

Sherman, if that's really you... you ought to flesh out your profile a little so people know who they are contacting.

Joey, this guy is almost a neighbor of yours, have you seen his products yet?

JoeyD
01-30-2008, 09:26 PM
Yeah, who is Doug? YEAH WHO IS DOUG??;)

Joey, this guy is almost a neighbor of yours, have you seen his products yet?

What I have seen so far has impressed me!

:clapping:

Joey D.

dglights
01-30-2008, 09:27 PM
Yes, it's me Gregg. I figured DG Lights would give it away.
Let's see if my signature pops up this time.

irrig8r
01-30-2008, 09:37 PM
There you go. Welcome aboard.

Looking forward to seeing more of your line. So far so good on the Paso.

Chris J
01-30-2008, 10:28 PM
I just went through the website, and the products look great. I can see myself jumping into the LED world soon, but I only have one concern. I noticed that there is not a wide variety of options available yet. A lot of manufacturers are coming out with bullet style lights, and I see DG has a step light and a puck style light. But what about the flood types and wall washers that we (I) use so often? I believe in the concept of LED, but I don't want to do it unless I can install any given project entirely with LED. I don't see the point in mixing it up unless you're simply using the LEDs for hard to service locations like tree mounts (even then you still have to service the straps and mounts).

Mike M
01-30-2008, 10:35 PM
Chris, you're the man with the checkbook, scribe one for some lights from Sherman and see what happens. I'm jumping in now for the purpose of market positioning early.

I'll just expand my line as more sheet becomes available. My next ad is gonna be driven by LED's.

JoeyD
01-30-2008, 11:02 PM
Chris, there is nothing wrong with you using both LED and standard incandescent/halogen. Once you understand the draw that one fo these LED's produce you will be able to manage your VD and tie LED in with your lower wattage path and directional lights.

Step and Puck lights are an awesome starting point until we know how well LED will hold up in the landscape in directional fixtures. These step lights in my opinion are in a much more stable environment that will allow for LED's to flourish, again my opinion but I think it makes sense.

Pro-Scapes
01-31-2008, 11:05 AM
I just went through the website, and the products look great. I can see myself jumping into the LED world soon, but I only have one concern. I noticed that there is not a wide variety of options available yet. A lot of manufacturers are coming out with bullet style lights, and I see DG has a step light and a puck style light. But what about the flood types and wall washers that we (I) use so often? I believe in the concept of LED, but I don't want to do it unless I can install any given project entirely with LED. I don't see the point in mixing it up unless you're simply using the LEDs for hard to service locations like tree mounts (even then you still have to service the straps and mounts).

Bingo... i cant spec 20 w type leds until i confirm there is a matching 35 output one. I am real impressed with the DG puck light but this does nothing for me for uplighting and other areas. I too would like to adopt this technology but plan to make my systems to be able to revert. A strong written warranty is important to me as well

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-31-2008, 01:07 PM
Sherman, sorry about the name thing.

How about your listings for Canada? I did not see that in your reply.

The LED MR16 lamps I am using are rated to operate at 80c. Installed in IP66 and IP68 fixtures that offer excellent heat dissipation qualities has been sucessful so far. (I have yet to use an IR thermometer to read the heat signature of the lamp, but the fixtures are cool to the touch even in the heat of our summer when ambient temperatures are in the high 30s Celcius (over 100f) The clients are happy, the lamps are still shining brightly, no premature failures thus far... Time will tell. The manufacturer offers a full 1 year warranty to me and is aware of my application. So far so good.

Regards.

Pro-Scapes
01-31-2008, 01:47 PM
james perhaps you should show who you are using for your led drop ins. I would love to see what is working as well as hear what is not.

If we are all here to share information there really is no need to keep it such a huge secret.

JoeyD
01-31-2008, 01:50 PM
Yeah James, please share....LOL....Good luck Billy, he is treating that info like its the holy grail or something..........

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-31-2008, 01:58 PM
Billy and Joey... I have in the past stated my reasons for keeping my LED lamp supply close to my chest. The situation has not changed and until it does, I see no reason to jeapordize my supply chain.

Joey, you saw them first hand and seemed suitably un-impressed. No point revealing specific information when you have no interest in them or desire to use them now is there?

I have a new unit in development now. I should have the prototype available to me sometime in february or march. If it works as planned, then I will happily release my current supply, as I will be free of all the BS that is involved with international agents and distributors.

Is there anything more sap sucking and useless then a "lighting industry agent"? I mean really... what do these guys do other then suffle purchase orders and papers around?

Regards.

JoeyD
01-31-2008, 02:12 PM
Billy and Joey... I have in the past stated my reasons for keeping my LED lamp supply close to my chest. The situation has not changed and until it does, I see no reason to jeapordize my supply chain.

Joey, you saw them first hand and seemed suitably un-impressed. No point revealing specific information when you have no interest in them or desire to use them now is there?

I have a new unit in development now. I should have the prototype available to me sometime in february or march. If it works as planned, then I will happily release my current supply, as I will be free of all the BS that is involved with international agents and distributors.

Is there anything more sap sucking and useless then a "lighting industry agent"? I mean really... what do these guys do other then suffle purchase orders and papers around?

Regards.

James, I told you that I did like the color rendition but the light output was very week. It was even close to that BAB and that was a very cheap BAB not even near the quality of a GE or Ushio. And the quality of cosntruction felt like all the other modules I have handled. I just didnt see much that impressed me. But I do however respect your opinion and your passion for finding a useable product such as this. I wish you the best of luck.

How's that blister by the way...LOL Eat any Noble fish lately....I have....wait Tuna isn't noble is it?:drinkup::drinkup:

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-31-2008, 03:52 PM
The blister is gone, and yes Tuna is a Noble fish my friend. (as long as it is Dolphin Safe, i.e. not caught using huge trawler nets) You are probably safer just eating granola. :drinkup:

I will power up my meter and take RL light level readings at 10' from both the LED and the BAB and report back here. Have to dig out my meter and replace the batteries.... I haven't used that puppy in a few years.

Regards.

Pro-Scapes
01-31-2008, 04:57 PM
The blister is gone, and yes Tuna is a Noble fish my friend. (as long as it is Dolphin Safe, i.e. not caught using huge trawler nets) You are probably safer just eating granola. :drinkup:

I will power up my meter and take RL light level readings at 10' from both the LED and the BAB and report back here. Have to dig out my meter and replace the batteries.... I haven't used that puppy in a few years.

Regards.

what kind of meter did you get and where did you get it ?

JoeyD
01-31-2008, 06:05 PM
The blister is gone, and yes Tuna is a Noble fish my friend. (as long as it is Dolphin Safe, i.e. not caught using huge trawler nets) You are probably safer just eating granola. :drinkup:

I will power up my meter and take RL light level readings at 10' from both the LED and the BAB and report back here. Have to dig out my meter and replace the batteries.... I haven't used that puppy in a few years.

Regards.


LOL....Too funny!! Let us know the results, that room wasnt the best to be testing photo metrics and lumen output but according to my eye and a few others it was a substantial difference.

irrig8r
01-31-2008, 06:24 PM
Anyone seen these?

http://www.winonalighting.com/client/G5button/159

Winona Lighting is proud to introduce our new proprietary high
performance LED Module which is now available across the entire
Winscape line.

These High Output LED units combine the LED and
integral low voltage AC driver into one unit, allowing these fixtures to
maintain the same small size and shape as our standard MR-11 and
MR-16 Halogen fixtures.

The LED 11 is comparable to our MR-11 and uses (1) 3 watt diode. The
LED 16 is comparable to our MR-16 and uses (3) 3watt diodes. Our LED
fixtures have been designed to function optimally at input voltages
ranging between 10.5 and 15.0 Volts AC, a much wider range than
standard low voltage halogen lamps. This greatly reduces problems
with voltage drop over long runs with multiple fixtures.

FEATURES AND BENEFITS
• Integral LED Driver
• 10.5V to 15.0V AC Input
• 10° Beam Spread, 20° or 40° available with
Accessory Lenses
• 6500K Color Temperature. 3500K and 4100K
available with Filters
• Less Voltage Drop over longer runs
• Thermal Protector shuts off fixture to
prevent overheating

irrig8r
01-31-2008, 07:11 PM
More details in this PDF file.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-31-2008, 07:20 PM
Gregg. Winona is using a LED Lamp Module in these fixtures. I have a couple of them here I bought about 2 years ago for testing. They are not nearly as powerful as they sound. (Notice they don't provide any output levels) They are actually quite lame. They are a 8 degree tight spot and then you use different types of vellum screens that mount in front of the lens to diffuse the light. The only problem is that the wider you disperse the light, the lower the intensity. They also use a screen to change the colour temperature to a warmer tone, again it greatly reduces the light output.

The manufacturer of these (in California) has started to promote another type of power LED module.... ( I am in the kitchen and the units are in my shop, I dont recall the name just now)

Regards.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
01-31-2008, 07:25 PM
More details in this PDF file.


Well, there you go, just when you think you know it all, they go and change things! Disregard my last post, clearly Winona is not using what I thought they were.

I will have to check this one out.... They might have something there.

Regards.

irrig8r
01-31-2008, 10:05 PM
Well, there you go, just when you think you know it all, they go and change things! Disregard my last post, clearly Winona is not using what I thought they were.

I will have to check this one out.... They might have something there.

Regards.

I was impressed with the photometric chart they provide in the PDF file. But I don't know if it reflects real world conditions.

We'll see lots morechanges... it's early in the game.

The thing about all the lighting manufacturers messing with LEDs is they can and will change specs as modules improve. Just don't be the one left holding the outdated modules.

I heard that Vista tried LEDs in composite fixtures... ooops. FX has had LED MR16s available for a while but they don't push them because they're not quite perfect and they are expensive. I just noticed Kichler has an LED decklight.

I predict LED landscape lighting will reach a tipping point within two years... but the old guard haven't quite worked out the bugs yet, giving newer manufacturers an opportunity to get a leg up in the meantime.

Mike M
01-31-2008, 10:13 PM
OMG

Just got my LED fixture from Sherman. Holy crap. I'm spending some money asap pushing LED's. The light color and output is incredible. By the way, the brass bullet is slick as all heck, low profile, heavy.

I ran outside to do a comparison with my mr16's, and the halogen Gods started a big rain deluge.

I'll go back out with my cam and wire cutters in a little while. This is the real freakin deal. Only prob, these are back ordered 4 months. I blindly put in an order for a dozen, glad I did. Gonna look at my bank account to see how many more to get. I think Steve P. was right, I need a business loan.

Mike M
01-31-2008, 10:56 PM
okay I pulled my other lights of the house mostly and put the two lights to compare in the middle. It's not my original configuration but it shows a two story projection. No photoshop stuff. lights on right and left help to show the cam settings are equal.

The LED is a 5 watt palm65 and the halogen is an ushio 20 watt.

Chris J
01-31-2008, 11:08 PM
Which is which Mike? The bottom pic is brighter (on my screen) but seems to have a lower Kelvin temp (warmer color).

irrig8r
01-31-2008, 11:10 PM
okay I pulled my other lights of the house mostly and put the two lights to compare in the middle. It's not my original configuration but it shows a two story projection. No photoshop stuff. lights on right and left help to show the cam settings are equal.

The LED is a 5 watt palm65 and the halogen is an ushio 20 watt.

Very nice.

To my eye, the halogen (top) has more of a hot spot and the LED (bottom) is more evenly distributed, but with about the same intensity at the top eave.

Are they in the same location? Same angle?

irrig8r
01-31-2008, 11:11 PM
Which is which Mike? The bottom pic is brighter (on my screen) but seems to have a lower Kelvin temp (warmer color).

Right click and save the photos. They are labelled.

Looks to me like the top one is angled in towards the house a tad more, and the bottom one is left of center.

Chris J
01-31-2008, 11:17 PM
Oh, cool trick Greg.
I see the hot spot you are referring to, but on my screen the eve vent looks much brighter on the bottom (led). Also, I'm suprised to find that the warmer color of the two is the led. Very interesting, Thanks Mike.

Mike M
01-31-2008, 11:23 PM
It was flippin raining out, and I couldn't see well once I cut the wire. Aiming and possition are not in the exact spot, but very close.

Greg, thanks for giving it away you spoiler you. I couldn't re-name the files when I wanted too.

The palm65 in brass is a beautiful thing. Tight profile, heavy. Cost is about 50% more than a brass mr16 fixture??

The larger 35w comparable is much more, but hey, they are both available to consumers that want them bad. Cost is also offset by smaller transformers and smaller wire. Much smaller, plus, you can chain em pretty long. They only consume 5 watts, even if hit with 15.

irrig8r
01-31-2008, 11:24 PM
Oh, cool trick Greg.
I see the hot spot you are referring to, but on my screen the eve vent looks much brighter on the bottom (led). Also, I'm suprised to find that the warmer color of the two is the led. Very interesting, Thanks Mike.

Unless of course he mislabeled the photos to throw us off... with Mike, anything is possible.

What, me worry?

Mike M
01-31-2008, 11:30 PM
yeah, but jokes off. I'm goin all-out marketing on this one. Guy in NC bought 500 and he's now sold out. Palm65 back-ordered 4 weeks.

I placed an order for 12 for a demo or sale whichever comes first. If I ever needed a loan it's now. I was looking at offices today, too. The ones with the roller door in the back. I can't think in my house.

Pro-Scapes
02-01-2008, 09:12 AM
I played more with the mr16 leds i have last night. Not even close to halogen lamp throw. Mikes looks much much better than this thing i got. Im not even going to post pics of it now.

doesnt look bad up to about 8 ft but the led drops out clearly after that.

Mike M
02-01-2008, 08:44 PM
Billy, are you are talking about the retro lamps? Thanks for the observation, I haven't seen an MR-fitted retro LED bulb. I hear the specs are not good. Too bad for conventional fixture manu's. They may have to change the design of their fixtures from the inside out. If not, companies like Sherman's will get way ahead and not only rob market share, but be the new leaders.

The main need is to have a separate location for the control module, as opposed to jamming everything into a glass bulb.

I'm gonna stop discussing my LED research here and start considering it my propriety info. If anyone wants to discuss findings and developments with me, as well as market positioning, please PM me.

BTW (Eddie) the stealthy palm65 makes the MR16 fixtures look like PAR's. :)

Thanks, everyone.

Mike

Chris J
02-01-2008, 10:06 PM
Billy, are you are talking about the retro lamps? Thanks for the observation, I haven't seen an MR-fitted retro LED bulb. I hear the specs are not good. Too bad for conventional fixture manu's. They may have to change the design of their fixtures from the inside out. If not, companies like Sherman's will get way ahead and not only rob market share, but be the new leaders.

The main need is to have a separate location for the control module, as opposed to jamming everything into a glass bulb.

I'm gonna stop discussing my LED research here and start considering it my propriety info. If anyone wants to discuss findings and developments with me, as well as market positioning, please PM me.

BTW (Eddie) the stealthy palm65 makes the MR16 fixtures look like PAR's. :)

Thanks, everyone.

Mike

OK Solecki Jr. Get a bit of good info and you're gonna just sit on it huh? It didn't take you long to turn into a lighting snob. :nono: :laugh:

Mike M
02-01-2008, 10:56 PM
Chris,

Are you calling me a Canadian wannabe? Maybe I am. They have good national health care and lots of moose to shoot and fish to fry. They were settled by french trappers. That's funny, french red necks. They hung out with indians. Canada is the home of ice beer. They end sentances with that cool 'eh' thing. They got ice road truckers.

I said all there is to say about LED's. No secrets. It's do or die.