Is Aquascapes as good as they make themselves seem?

[scooterbug311]

I just went to a class on the aquascape pond installs and out of the whole thing, i was left with only one question... Is the Aquascape way and products as a good and as easy as the sales guy make it seem?? Our company is really excited about moving forward in the water feature installs. We are really new at this and i just dont want to be taken by a "gimmick" or a get rich quick thing. So i would like all the feed back that i can get on Aquascape. We really want to go with them. We like the produce and the presentation. Help pond guys!!!

[TRBIGCREEK]

They are experts in marketing and have good products. But the question you have to ask is, are good products worth paying 25-35 % more from Aquascapes rather than saving money with someone else who also has good products. Savio, Atlantic, Easypro, Pondmaster, Little Giant all have good products as well. In some cases, depending on what you want for half the price.

Are you looking to become a dealer or just buy ADI products from one of their licensed dealers?

TR

[scooterbug311]

thank you for your reply. i really dont know any other brands that are out there. i am just woundering if there are other ones out there. i am not looking to become a "dealer" but i was thinking of shooting for the cac thing they talked about. i want to use thier produces cuz i just want to build and design ponds. i want to know if you have any other suggestions on produces that you have used!!!! write back please.

thanks

the bug

[BrandonV]

i love savio's line, very professional stuff, if you're selling to homeowners aquascapes all the way... great marketing ok product

[Venturewest]

I agree that their are many great pond manufacturers now that produce products and kits every bit as good as Aquascapes. I have had great luck with Savio's training and components. Wholesalers and distributors put together kits too with different combinations.

Where are you in northern CO? I just got back from the ProGreen expo. Did you go? I can't believe how many good water feature designers and builders there are in Colorado.

[MnDLawn]

They are experts in marketing...

That is about where it ends. Some of their products are great. But some, like their smaller pumps are down right junk. Also don't every buy any "dealer" items like their show tanks, the rubbermaid stock tanks work great. Other than that the customers love the marketing gimmicks and fancy labels.

[TRBIGCREEK]

thank you for your reply. i really don't know any other brands that are out there. i am just wondering if there are other ones out there. i am not looking to become a "dealer" but i was thinking of shooting for the cac thing they talked about. i want to use their produces cuz i just want to build and design ponds. i want to know if you have any other suggestions on produces that you have used!!!! write back please.

thanks

the bug

Scooterbug,


Think about it this way, the average pond project around here sells for $6,500
of that $ 6,500 you've got about $1300-$2200 in stone another $1300-$2200 in pumps, underlayment, liners, skimmers, biological filters, check valves, misc. plumbing, beneficial bacteria, etc. Why pay $2,200 if you don't have to? This gives you the freedom to sell more jobs, make more money and provide a better product at a better price. E-mail me @ trbigcreek@yahoo.com and I can point you in a better direction.

TR

[scooterbug311]

ft. collins and no i didnt make it to progreen this year. but why are you surprised at all the designers here? ponds and water features are big around here but there is not that many people that install it right. a lot of jerry riggin and duct tape. thats why i want people to tell me info on how to do in right. i would like to use pond produces in a pond install and not things that hold clothes or socks, you know what i mean? i understand that rubbermaid tubes and water bed liners and bla bla bla works but that is not what that stuff was made of. Am i wrong or right for feeling that way?
reply back please.

thanks,
the bug

[Venturewest]

You are exactly right about using the proper components to build great features. You obviously know your market more than I do and you know how things are done. Even though Colorado is a huge market, and I know water features are big. (I lived there for several years.) I was still surprised at how many excellent high-end contractors there are.

There was a job board at the expo. And there were so many big landscape companies that had offering for project managers, or crew leaders, supervisors, designers. I have researched many companies and checked out their websites and galleries. Some of them are absolutely incredible. Absolutely world class. I was talking to a company about working as a supervisor and they are working on a 1/2 million dollar waterfall right now.

I am not saying that to discourage you. I think there is still plenty of room for good contractors to come in and build good features in the $5000 to $50000 range, if we are really good. Making the features appear natural in CO is key while still using sound construction.

[n2h20]

I would have to agree with most... NO!!!
They have great marketing and great literature but thats about it.

I have never installed their product nor do i ever want to. I maintain over 40 ponds and some, at least 10 have been built by AS installers. So i see their product and design in many different situations.

I have replaced most of their pumps. replaced most of the skimmer "trap doors" and cursed at the AS ponds many times...

I don't even agree with the whole gravel/skimmer idea. It's great if you have a pond that is shallow and in the middle of a grass field with no fish.

Savio is the "cream of the crop" id say when it comes to skimmer design.
Their pumps along with OASE, and PONDMASTER would be my first picks for in pond/submersible pumps.

and im not sure but the reference to the rubbermaid fish tank.... RubberMaid makes some actual fish/show tanks or horse trough type containers that are half the price as the "AS show tanks" for and arm and a leg.

But again they have a mean marketing campaign,,

[scooterbug311]

wow, thank you guys for all the great info. i am soaking it up like a sponge. it really looks like savio is the way to go. thanks for everything. keep the info going i need every little bit i can get..

[Fishwhiz]

yeah but they have turned millions of people into pond "professionals" overnight !!!!

Just stay clear of the electric kool-aid and you will be fine lol.

[scooterbug311]

yeah but they have turned millions of people into pond "professionals" overnight !!!!

Just stay clear of the electric kool-aid and you will be fine lol.

what do you mean electric cool aid

[Fishwhiz]

Electric kool-aid refers to a lethal concoction that some cult drank in a mass suicide in a place called Jonestown. Do a search for it.

[Pennings Gardens]

I would have to disagree with most of the replies here, I think aquascape is the way to go, especially if you are new in the pond field. You buy a kit and you will never have to "run back to the shop" to get a part you might have forgotten, or the skimmer pluming does not match up wit the bio falls pluming and now you need to find a hardware store to get a reducer somewhere. It fits, it works, and its made easy! Yes they are more expensive, but you have a problem with anything at all, from a pump not working correctly to an algae problem, 1 phone call to your dealer or to aquascape directly and they will help you fix it.
Is there any other company out there that will help you as much as aquascape does? from training to customer support.
Allot of the people here might be "experts" and they have all made mistakes, most of those mistakes have cost them allot of money, from return trips to replacing hardware, I think aquascape can help you not make some those mistakes. I'm not saying aquascape is the best company out there, I can't say that because we do not deal with every company out there and they are not the cheapest either, but they got us up to speed and we are making money on every single pond, waterfall or fountain we install, even though we might not be the cheapest company out there.

[wahlturfcare]

i have to agree with pennings gardens. I have used Aquascape and others and feel that the aquascape brand is by far better. Everything you need is in the box, everything fits, and you can change the design of a pond without have to buy new parts in most cases.
Yea you do pay more, but it is well worth it. I have found the others to look unatural in the way to have to make them look.

[STL Ponds and Waterfalls]

Start off installing ADI kits and after you install a few if your selling them good keep going. If the price is holding you back look at other companies and start experimenting with other parts. I use thier skimmers but I'm starting to build my own waterfalls. Get a few in the ground, have fun, and evolve while you grow.

[Fishwhiz]

First off, we don't build plastic ponds so we've not used any kits, but I have to think the other companies' kits contain parts that also fit together! For the uninitiated it probably comes down to training and support. Look there first.

As far as looking natural, I've never seen any of them that look like a real pond. That may depend on one's perspective.

[William Burnison]

Scooterbug311, before you set your sites on one particular manufacturer that has made a reputation for doing a few good things but mostly making money off of everyone elses hard work...you need to talk to those who know. Don't take my word for it,,,but talk to a few of the contractors who have been to the top of the Aquascapes Organization and they will all tell you the same thing "BEWARE"!!!

Aquascapes will take you under their wing and then in order to stay with their organization, you MUST use their components, install with their methods. They do not want you to even look at anyone elses line of products.

I would have to say that is an extremely paranoid way to keep your business on top...force all of your members to do things one and only one way. I thought that went away when Hitler died...evidently not.

I just returned from an awesome seminar that was put on by Savio Engineering in New Jersey and another guy that frequents this site went to one in New York...Nate, (Barefootny). I have not had the time to get ahold of him and ask how his seminar was but the one I attended was absolutely awesome.

The instructor does not force feed you Savio components, he just simply points out the types of things that any installer should look for in any component and Savio just happens to have those qualities.

But the majority of the seminar was about assisting contractors in operating a successful, sustainable and profitable business. Something of value to any one, no matter who's equipment you use. The RISE Method he showed us just simply blew away anything I had ever seen. It is a natural rock and boulder placement technique that gives beautiful results. I would not have believed what was done in this seminar except that I was physically there and saw it with my own eyes. It changed the way I will do business and my very first project since my return netted me an amazing profit I would not have had the courage to have priced before the seminar.

I would highly recommend that anyone that is serious about this industry should at the very least attend one of this guys seminars. It is worth every penny and has an unbelievable value to beginners and veterans alike. And it does not matter who you like...this seminar has something for everyone. But we would be foolish to not at least take a look at what Savio has to offer. I don't care who makes it, I want the best for my customers because I can not afford to keep on returning to repair or replace poorly made components. And I have yet to find a skimmer that can hold a light to the Savio SkimmerFilter.

Scooterbug, if you really want to get into water features and do it profitably...check out this guys seminars. You can use this information no matter whose products you use. And Savio's policy...they do not force you to use their stuff like Aquascapes...they know that if you are serious about your work, you will take a close look at their stuff and I promise you will like what you see. But that is all besides the point that the seminar will absolutely change your life and the way you do business. There really is someone out there that is trying to help us be successful.

During this seminar I met three Aquascape contractors that are trying to break free from the hold imposed by the Aquascape organization. They told me stories that will make want to leave this work that I love so much. I heard it straight from them with no sugar coating. That is why I tell you do not take my word for it. Ask someone who has been there and then take a close look at reality...Aquascapes makes their own product line, they publish their own magazine, they have their own convention, they have their own "no matter what it is you can build it in twenty steps" method. I mean really! They have successfully seperated themselves from the entire rest of the water feature industry in the entire world! EVERYONE else, manufacturers, publications, distributor warehouses, retailers, contractors, aquatic plant nursery's, fish farms; everyone!!!...the entire industry is all on one side of the industry and the only one not playing ball is Aquascapes. That in itself should turn the light on.

Check it out for yourself and you will see. There are classes you can take that make everything seem like a perfect world from a sales point of view leaving you wondering just like you said in your own words...are they really as good as they seem? And then there seminars that are truely showing contractors how to operate a sustainable and profitable business with no strings attached. Judge for yourself.

William, (serious about my career), Burnison

[M&N Maintenance]

Why does William Burnison sound like a commercial? Or is it just me?

[buzzyng]

I've used Aquascape for years and have been very satisfied with the products and support. yes, they do cost more $$ but I have never had a problem with any of their components except for a faulty CVA. They have had problems with some of their smaller pumps but I only use the AS 3000-7500 with no issues.

The marketing is top notch and really helps with customers.

AS has really shunned alot of contractors and some of their top dealers and that is too bad - I definitely don't like that portion.

I have experimented with some other lines and while they do work, the fit and finish didn't look as good.

Overall, I don't think you will go wrong with any manufacturers but starting out with AS to get the foundations down with the great support and training might be the best way. After that, start dabbling to see what works best with for you.

William Burnison - What is the RISE method you refer to? I googled but really didn't find much info. I checked Savio's site for any upcoming training in our area and there isn't any.

[buzzyng]

WB - i found the write up about it. I use many of those techniques but had never seen it put together like that.

[William Burnison]

First of all let me address M & N Maintenance...If you know who I can contact at Savio, I would gladly do a commercial for them. It is not so much that you think that I sound like a commercial but rather that I am very passionate about what I do and truely want to share some of the information I have stumbled across with others out there.

There is one thing that really gets to me and that is visiting a customer who has a water feature installed by someone who IS NOT doing a very good job at it. They either need to change careers or learn how to do a better job.

The majority of the contractors that I have personally met really want to do a good job...it is just that they do not know how or no one has shown them how to do things right. There are always better ways to do things, no matter how much experience we think we have. I am just sharing information here. If ANYONE wants to really be good at what they do, there is nothing wrong with getting some professional training in that particular field. And in this case, I have been to the National Convention for more than nine years straight, and have gone to Aquascape classes and Danner, and Proline and NO ONE comes close or even holds a candle to the Savio Water Feature Institute Seminars. This is not just me saying this...it is the entire industry. WaterShapes Magazine has talked about it, The Water Garden News had a feature about it, PondKeeper Magazine, the National Association of Pond Professionals endorses the program. The list goes on and on. The instructor is a veteran, accomplished installer that has won more awards than I even heard of. His RISE Method really works...I have used it. So no false promises here, just good sound information that can help anyone run a great installation business. Don't take my word for it...They are boosting more than 500 satisfied contractors that have taken their seminar since the program started last spring, (2007). Ask them! I have talked to many of them and everyone says the same thing. The seminars are awesome and their products work. And most important to me...Savio does not "force" anyone to use there stuff like some manufacture programs. To be on the other guys "certified" list...you HAVE to use their stuff, you HAVE to do everything their way, you HAVE to this and you HAVE to that!!! I want to make my own choices based on sound, valid information and not because I HAVE to.

So if that sounds like a commercial to you...my appologies. I am just passing along a good thing to anyone that may be interested.

Now to address BUZZYNG's question about the RISE Method, (and thanks for your willingness to get out there and ask questions and investigate other options...that is what our industry needs). I hope I copied this down correctly from class. I don't know all of it but RISE stands for Random, having no specific pattern; Irregular, having no even occurrences; Spontaneous, having no external confinement; and Erratic, having no fixed course. It is a truely naturalistic rock and boulder placement technique that gives absolutely awesome results. I have been reading the articles in the Water Garden News and PondKeeper Magazine for several years now. The ones I have are: RISE, (article #1); RISE to the Challenge, (article #2); and Continue to RISE, (article #3). I have heard that there are a couple more articles but I have not seen them. One guy at class told me of one he just read called RISE to the Occasion.

Anyway, the method just outlines what nature does and does not do. Teaching contractors to stop making these straight lines running straight down the hillside and are the same width at the top, middle and bottom and then calling it a stream. Stop building waterfalls with perfectly flat pieces of flagstone and most importantly learning how to select and set into place the correct choices of rocks and boulders for a natural appearing water feature.

I watched this guy build a stream on HGTV's Extreme Landscapes and when it was completed, it looked like a real river out in the mountains. I could not beleive my eyes.

If anyone has every wanted to step up to the plate and take their water feature installation business to the next level...this is a great place to start. I also heard that the instructor for these courses is doing the educational forum and water feature installation class at this years National Convention in Baltimore, Maryland. It is supposed to be a two day advanced level RISE Method Seminar.

For anyone wishing to find out more about this stuff you can contact the National Association of Pond Professionals at www.nationalpondpro.com, a great non-profit organization that is looking out for us and this industry; the Savio Water Feature Institute at www.HowGoodCanYouGet.com; and for the National Pond Expo and Conference, go to www.pondkeeper.com for more info. I also have one of the business cards for the instructor and his name is Rick Bartel, a Certified Master Water Feature Specialist and he can be reached at rick@savio.cc if you want any information about the seminars.

So for those who wish to keep an open mind and absorb all you can about this great industry...here it is, read it, and follow up as you desire. And for those who think it sounds like a commercial, my appologies for being so excited and passionate in passing along some much needed and valuable information to my colleagues and for wanting to fully satisfy my clients with the use of only what I feel are superior components for water feature installation.

With the utmost respect for each of you and the choices that you make...
William Burnison

[Mr. Vern]

It boils down to this for us; it was our local irrigation supplier that finally pushed us over the hump and into water features a few years ago. They had just picked up the Aquascapes distributorship and were trying to promote the line. They gave us classes on how to make money, they hosted several build a pond events for our guys to get trained, and they even gave us great deals on equipment so we could build a couple of ponds in our backyards to practice on. They loaned us kits for our homeshow the first year which really helped us get our water feature sales going. Because of that, I never even considered any other vendor, even though I knew there were cheaper alternatives. Our gross margin on our ponds is usually between 50-65% using Aquascapes.

Now the bad news: our supplier has made some changes in their business plan and Aquascapes and the guy that got us into ponds are out. The good side of it is that I was able to buy a huge inventory of kits at 10% below what their cost was due to them just wanting to clear their inventory. Now that they are not selling Aquascapes, I have to admit that I have no loyalty to Aquascapes other than the fact that my guys are all familiar with their components and the system is working very well for me. I realize that I can piece together my own systems and probably make a couple hundred dollars more per job, but I am so busy right now that I don't have the time to put together my own kits. It is really nice to be able to call my rep and tell them 3 part numbers and a stream length and I know the guys will have everything that they need.
In conclusion, I would say that if you have a good supplier close to you that can get you started with Aquascapes, you can not go wrong! Just their "Create a Paradise" video alone is worth using them. That video will close the deal for you if you use it properly! The only quality problems I have had with them have been the old pumps - which have all been purged from teh pipeline, and the nut inserts in the Skimmer and Biofalls are very easy to strip out. So, we just carry a bag of stainless nuts just in case.

[Mr. Vern]

Scooterbug311, Don't take my word for it,,,but talk to a few of the contractors who have been to the top of the Aquascapes Organization and they will all tell you the same thing "BEWARE"!!!

It's not like he is becoming a Mason, or joining a secret society here. He is just learning how to build ponds and buying the needed materials. This sounds like a quote from one of the anti-Mormon posts I have read.:laugh:

Aquascapes will take you under their wing and then in order to stay with their organization, you MUST use their components, install with their methods. They do not want you to even look at anyone else's line of products.

This is only true if you become a "Certified Aquascapes Contractor", and that's not unreasonable. As a CAC, they will refer anyone who contacts them to you for an install. Seems reasonable that they should monitor the quality and at least have their product installed and not their competitor's.

I would have to say that is an extremely paranoid way to keep your business on top...force all of your members to do things one and only one way. I thought that went away when Hitler died...evidently not.
William, (serious about my career), Burnison
Have you ever worked anywhere that had a quality system in place? The idea here is simply that they have a formula that is repeatable and that produces the desired product. The key to a quality system is to have repeatable processes that produces a desirable result. If you want to leverage their success, you follow their process. If you don't want to leverage their success, you should not become one of their certified installers - nothing fascist about it, just good business!

[1wezil]

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