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View Full Version : CASE 400 series 3 machines released for ordering


ksss
02-04-2008, 11:31 PM
The Series 3 machines are released for ordering. My salesman has a guy who is interested in buying my 440. He asked what I wanted for mine. I really don't want to sell it but for the right number everything I own is for sale. The Series three machines can now be ordered so I built one the way I want.

The 440 got an increase to 90 hp and the ROC stayed at 2200.

I picked the following options
Hyd. Coupler
Heat/AC with glass door (heavy demo door is an option)
64" wide with 12X16.5 tires
72" hd extended lip bucket
lift cylinder guard
proportional aux. hyd control
aux. front hyd. controls
Interior mirror
Interior trim
noise reduction package
Aspirator
Pilots H pattern
radio
rotating beacon
Ride control
2-speed
Block heater.
Deluxe air seat with with heat in the seat.

I should find out what it will cost tomorrow or the next day.

dozerman21
02-04-2008, 11:36 PM
90 hp is impressive for a machine that size. Is this the new style pressurized cab?

ksss
02-04-2008, 11:57 PM
90 hp is impressive for a machine that size. Is this the new style pressurized cab?

The cab is pressurized. It has more lighting around the cab and of course air/heated seat. I am awaiting the email address for the dozer guy by the way.

Scag48
02-05-2008, 12:02 AM
I see you didn't specify the "better than Cat" package. :laugh: If I make it to ConExpo, I'll definately have a look at this new series. Any technical information about the pressurized cab yet?

BIGBEN2004
02-05-2008, 12:03 AM
When you get it post up some pictures. I hope they put more glass in the door for better visibility. Other than that, that is my only thing I have a problem with. It will be amazing with that much Hp. that thing will be a beast. Hope they put a bigger fuel tank on it.

ksss
02-05-2008, 12:15 AM
I see you didn't specify the "better than Cat" package. :laugh: If I make it to ConExpo, I'll definately have a look at this new series. Any technical information about the pressurized cab yet?

No I don't have any specific info on the pressurized cab. The "better than Cat" has been available since CAT built their first skid steer. C'mon Scag you know that.:cool2:

The cab design is completely redesigned. I have seen the pictures and the look of the cab is completetely changed. The fuel tank according to the info I selected the components off of said that tank was 22 gal.

Scag48
02-05-2008, 12:23 AM
I guess the only gripe I've had against Case skid steers is the lack of refinements, they were always the utilitarian brand. It is definately refreshing to see new, modern features in the cabs of the machines like air ride seats and pressurizing the cab needed to be invented 5 years ago anyway, so it's nice to see Case step up to Cat's level with pressurized cab. At this point, if my dad had a local Case dealer that was easy to work with, I would be hard pressed to say that he'd continue to run Cat unless they start producing something stellar in the size class he wants.

I'm not going to bash Case's ability to build a workhorse machine, either. 2200 ROC and radial lift with 90 horses? Holy crap, what a beast. Only other question I have is fuel consumption, how much fuel are you burning per day with the 82 horse 440?

BIGBEN2004
02-05-2008, 12:24 AM
I want to see pictures too. Please tell me where I can see the new pictures....:waving:

Construct'O
02-05-2008, 09:45 AM
What is the difference in these ..........proportional aux. hyd control
aux. front hyd. controls

Is the machine high flow?

Also did you ask about if they had changed or already had the heavy duty axiles discussed here before for use with your new track system ? This is something that i would want to know for sure about the new machine !

Keep us posted,and good luck:usflag:

BIGBEN2004
02-05-2008, 09:53 AM
I thought the whole weak axle thing was back in the 1840 and 1845 machine days. As far as I know they beefed up the axles when the XT series came out. I might be wrong but I think that is true.

Fieldman12
02-05-2008, 07:59 PM
I would like to see some pics of this new Case. I like the Case machines myself. If I was buying a new one now I would lean more towards the Case than Cat. One is Im sure the Case would be a little cheaper to buy, they have been making skid steers a long time, and a closer dealer. Ksss, I noticed you ordered a 72" bucket. Is that the standard size with this machine? I figured since it was a higher hp machine and bigger the bucket would have been a little bigger. I have a 72" on my smaller Deere.

KRtraxx
02-05-2008, 10:05 PM
I thought the whole weak axle thing was back in the 1840 and 1845 machine days. As far as I know they beefed up the axles when the XT series came out. I might be wrong but I think that is true.

No the first 440s have all had a lighter axle..But I am hoping this new little beast will have them updated..90HP in a 2200# rated machine is kick ***.Cant wait to try one out....ksss, Christmas is here early...

cat2
02-05-2008, 10:31 PM
looks like i may be getting a case!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! case is really stepping up:):cool2:

P.Services
02-05-2008, 10:34 PM
i really want to run a 450ct to see how it compairs to the rest.

ksss
02-06-2008, 12:20 AM
No the first 440s have all had a lighter axle..But I am hoping this new little beast will have them updated..90HP in a 2200# rated machine is kick ***.Cant wait to try one out....ksss, Christmas is here early...

I spoke with CASE engineering last week on this axle. It is tapered however I don't think that they will be changing it. According to the guy I spoke to who oversaw this assembly process for sometime said they are not seeing failures in it. I spoke to him about using the 85XT axle, the issue he said was that would also require a different sproket and chain. Although the concept was new to him he planned on looking into it. He mentioned that initially they were not that hot on the VTS mainly because of the CAT connection. However I got the impression based on what was said that they have been working test machines with the VTS. He said to me that you could probably cause the machine to fail with the VTS if you work at it. He stands by the durability of the axle. I will just run the machine. I don't anticipate a problem and if I get one I will look at the heavier axle but I doubt it will be an issue.

I speced the 72" bucket because I ordered the machine 64" wide and I already have a 66" bucket, an 84" bucket and I will be getting an 80" or so to run the VTS with so I ordered the 73" because that I wont have if my current 440 sells.

This machine will not have high flow. I have it on my 465 and when that gets replaced I will likely get its replacement with highflow. The proportional hyd. It allows for proportional flow rates on the aux. hyd so you can feather attachments or adjust flow according to need.

I have been very happy with the fuel consumption in my current 440. The torque curve is awesome and it lugs better than the previous CASE/Cummins motor. I get about 9-10 hours out of a tank of fuel. Considering the power that this machine puts to the ground, I have issues with the fuel useage. I wish my 465 was a good on fuel. I hope that this machine is as good on fuel. I know that they improved the cold start ability. I am completly happy with this tier two motor I hope the tier three does not take a step backword. I was assured last week that I would be very impressed. We will see. As far as the cab issues on these machines Scag, I totally agree. I told them the very same thing acouple month ago. I also suggested that owners of CASE cab machined should get a "loyalty" bonus then they trade their machines in for new cab units. He thought it was a great idea and past the idea on to Marketing. If you see that offer come to pass that was my suggestion. I think any CASE guy that owns a 400 series with a cab should get a discount for putting up with it. No one disagreed with me. The cabs should have been updated with the release of 400 series machines. The change from the XT to the 400 series reminded me much of the CAT release of the B series. Change of series, but not a lot in mechanical changes. That has been addressed with this Series 3 machine. Hopefully they are all positive changes.

My salesman has pictures of the new machine I will have him send them to me and then I will post them.

Scag48
02-06-2008, 12:26 AM
Tomorrow is my day off, I'm headed to a Case dealer for some reading material and to shoot some BS with a sales guy. I'll let you know how they treat me compared to the Cat boys. :waving:

Will keep on the lookout of the royalty bonus, sounds like a good idea to me. Cat never had a real fancy cab, but the features that are there get the job done and provide comfort throught the day. Bobcat's cabs are too over the top for me, a bunch of junk you don't need. A happy medium of utilitarian meets modern is what I like to see in cabs. Case seems like they got caught in the stone age for a while pushing their utilitarian mode, which their machines are legendary for. However, the market is changing everywhere. Cars now are ridiculous, there is more crap in the cockpit of a car that doesn't need to be there, yet some people just love that stuff. People want fancy now and it seems that Case will step up and deliver the goods without being too over the top, just right in my book.

ksss
02-06-2008, 12:48 AM
I don't think you will find the Series 3 info in brochures, but the sales guys their should have it on computer. Becareful that Power Tan doesn't rub off you.

ksss
02-06-2008, 12:52 AM
I really need to proof read before hitting submit. I sweer to gawd I B edgucated.:dizzy:

Scag48
02-06-2008, 01:23 AM
Yeah I figure I won't find the 3 series material, but I'd like to take one of those 440's around the lot if I could. At least I can do that at Cat dealerships, I just put my Cat hat on and I get no qualms, we'll see how things go at Case. Suppose I should wear my Cat hat to the Case shop and make some friends? :laugh:

KRtraxx
02-06-2008, 08:08 AM
I spoke with CASE engineering last week on this axle. It is tapered however I don't think that they will be changing it. According to the guy I spoke to who oversaw this assembly process for sometime said they are not seeing failures in it. I spoke to him about using the 85XT axle, the issue he said was that would also require a different sproket and chain. Although the concept was new to him he planned on looking into it. He mentioned that initially they were not that hot on the VTS mainly because of the CAT connection. However I got the impression based on what was said that they have been working test machines with the VTS. He said to me that you could probably cause the machine to fail with the VTS if you work at it. He stands by the durability of the axle. I will just run the machine. I don't anticipate a problem and if I get one I will look at the heavier axle but I doubt it will be an issue.

I speced the 72" bucket because I ordered the machine 64" wide and I already have a 66" bucket, an 84" bucket and I will be getting an 80" or so to run the VTS with so I ordered the 73" because that I wont have if my current 440 sells.

This machine will not have high flow. I have it on my 465 and when that gets replaced I will likely get its replacement with highflow. The proportional hyd. It allows for proportional flow rates on the aux. hyd so you can feather attachments or adjust flow according to need.

I have been very happy with the fuel consumption in my current 440. The torque curve is awesome and it lugs better than the previous CASE/Cummins motor. I get about 9-10 hours out of a tank of fuel. Considering the power that this machine puts to the ground, I have issues with the fuel useage. I wish my 465 was a good on fuel. I hope that this machine is as good on fuel. I know that they improved the cold start ability. I am completly happy with this tier two motor I hope the tier three does not take a step backword. I was assured last week that I would be very impressed. We will see. As far as the cab issues on these machines Scag, I totally agree. I told them the very same thing acouple month ago. I also suggested that owners of CASE cab machined should get a "loyalty" bonus then they trade their machines in for new cab units. He thought it was a great idea and past the idea on to Marketing. If you see that offer come to pass that was my suggestion. I think any CASE guy that owns a 400 series with a cab should get a discount for putting up with it. No one disagreed with me. The cabs should have been updated with the release of 400 series machines. The change from the XT to the 400 series reminded me much of the CAT release of the B series. Change of series, but not a lot in mechanical changes. That has been addressed with this Series 3 machine. Hopefully they are all positive changes.

My salesman has pictures of the new machine I will have him send them to me and then I will post them.

ksss,thanks for the info on the axles..Is good to know.Since Cat sold off their interests in ASV (who owns Loegering) maybe Case is going to be more supportive of the VTS..Lets hope so..The New Holland dealership I work with here just took on Case also..Have the new price list in hand but no new pics or lit yet..Sure sounds like some exciting changes to me..Case needed this kind of boost.I am guessing this is going to turn out good for them....

ksss
02-06-2008, 10:37 AM
ksss,thanks for the info on the axles..Is good to know.Since Cat sold off their interests in ASV (who owns Loegering) maybe Case is going to be more supportive of the VTS..Lets hope so..The New Holland dealership I work with here just took on Case also..Have the new price list in hand but no new pics or lit yet..Sure sounds like some exciting changes to me..Case needed this kind of boost.I am guessing this is going to turn out good for them....

Some machines have seen substantial change like the 435 and 445. All machines share a common engine platform which is really good. By contrast other than the upgrades like the cab that all machines are getting the 440 was not changed much. The weights are on the exterior of the machine and look like what you would see on a CASE wheel loader. The stadium lighting on the cab will be very nice. The heated air seat is also a plus. I have always thought they made a very productive skid steer. I was good with the cabs in the XT series. They were nothiing special and I complained about them to the factory but no one else had done much better. When the 400 series was released I was expecting better things and they did not come. The machines now are better rounded. Not only are they productive but should be more comfortable as well.

bobcat_ron
02-06-2008, 10:45 AM
I still don't see why you people just don't buy a Case CTL instead, add up the cost of the VTS, possilbe axle or drive motor upgrades and add up a wider bucket and I swear you're going over the price of a CTL by at least $5000.

Am I wrong or right?

ksss
02-06-2008, 11:04 AM
I still don't see why you people just don't buy a Case CTL instead, add up the cost of the VTS, possilbe axle or drive motor upgrades and add up a wider bucket and I swear you're going over the price of a CTL by at least $5000.

Am I wrong or right?


I think you might be able to make that arguement on any machine. When the numbers come in on this machine we can it up and I compare that to the cost of a CTL. The VTS at full list is 15K. I will bet that this 440 is in the high 30s real money. The value is I can trade my the machine and keep the VTS without loosing my resale when compared to a CTL and have the ability to run tires if I want (granted it does not sound like many people do that in reality). Yes the buckt needs to be bought 1K. As far as the axles, with common sense, there will not be a problem. I wish with all that power and torque they would put in the heavier axles. Perhaps they will release a VTS ready package that would give the heavier axles.

Another advantage is with the VTS you see substantial increases in ROC while still having a smaller/less expensive machine. For example the 70XT with VTS I ran would lift what my 465 would lift. If you can get that kind of performance out of a smaller machine with out buying a big one all the better. The front sprocket is larger on the VTS than what you see on CTLs I believe that you could use the 50% of max lift for ROC rather than 35% as in CTLs. Maybe someone could expound on that.

bobcat_ron
02-06-2008, 11:07 AM
But if you are now rating the VTS equipped machines @ 50%, wouldn't your overall ground PSI go way up and start increasing wear on the tracks, rollers and other moving parts?

ksss
02-07-2008, 09:23 PM
But if you are now rating the VTS equipped machines @ 50%, wouldn't your overall ground PSI go way up and start increasing wear on the tracks, rollers and other moving parts?


I don't really follow the logic on that one.



The price on the 440 Series 3 as I built it is $40,200.

Thats a lot of Cabbage.

qps
02-07-2008, 10:45 PM
I don't really follow the logic on that one.



The price on the 440 Series 3 as I built it is $40,200.

Thats a lot of Cabbage.

Chicken feed to a man of your wealthpayup

Construct'O
02-07-2008, 10:56 PM
Chicken feed to a man of your wealthpayup

I think you got your animals mixed up there, that was Cabbage right:confused:
Well maybe not:rolleyes::usflag:

P.Services
02-07-2008, 11:17 PM
i just spoke with a deere dealer and he said march 1st the ct332 with pilot controls will arive.

BIGBEN2004
02-07-2008, 11:26 PM
i just spoke with a deere dealer and he said march 1st the ct332 with pilot controls will arive.

Hopefully they put some time and effort into making them good. I tried a set on a New Holland and they were horrible. They had such a delay in them I couldn't believe it. When I let go of the joystick the boom or bucket would continue to move for about a second. Also when raising the boom when I let go the boom would drop down about 2 inches. Maybe it was just that one but I have talked to some local landscapers and they had the same issues. They said they would never buy joysticks again. They are trading back for foot controls as soon as possible. I told them that the Takeuchi's and Cat's are the greatest thing to ever happen with their joysticks.

P.Services
02-07-2008, 11:35 PM
i know this will start a fire storm again so dont hang the messenger please... his exact words to me where " yeah they have electric over hydro pilot controls just like our backhoes have had for years so this is a prov-en winner"
on a side note i love pilots but i cant stand foot controls, the deere 332 im buying tomorrow has foot and hand but im going to change it over to hands only.

ksss
02-07-2008, 11:40 PM
Hopefully they put some time and effort into making them good. I tried a set on a New Holland and they were horrible. They had such a delay in them I couldn't believe it. When I let go of the joystick the boom or bucket would continue to move for about a second. Also when raising the boom when I let go the boom would drop down about 2 inches. Maybe it was just that one but I have talked to some local landscapers and they had the same issues. They said they would never buy joysticks again. They are trading back for foot controls as soon as possible. I told them that the Takeuchi's and Cat's are the greatest thing to ever happen with their joysticks.


There must have been something not right with the NH setup. I like TK's pilots but I hardly think CAT has anything on anybody (the EH not withstanding as I have not run that yet) the B series is not a great pilots system. Ironicly the NH pilots and the CAT pilot system are the same components (Rexroth pilot components).

BIGBEN2004
02-07-2008, 11:40 PM
Foot controls are very out dated and prehistoric in my opinion. Who wants to get wore out from running the machine. With pilot controls you feel comfortable and relaxed when you get out at the end of the day.

Scag48
02-08-2008, 12:25 AM
" yeah they have electric over hydro pilot controls just like our backhoes have had for years so this is a prov-en winner"


Again, mis-informed salesmen. Deere has NOT been running electric over hydraulic controls for years, they just put E/H in their backhoes and most guys do not like them. What is old technology is regular pilot controls, so if Deere went that route they might be good. But if they're a full on E/H I have my doubts already. I know you're quoting what he said, not bashing you, but sounds like this guy needs to do his homework.

ksss
02-08-2008, 12:37 AM
Again, mis-informed salesmen. Deere has NOT been running electric over hydraulic controls for years, they just put E/H in their backhoes and most guys do not like them. What is old technology is regular pilot controls, so if Deere went that route they might be good. But if they're a full on E/H I have my doubts already. I know you're quoting what he said, not bashing you, but sounds like this guy needs to do his homework.

Yep, there is no sure thing. I have heard of electronic issues with the Deere hoes. A buddy of mine who runs two CAT 430's demoed a Deere he was very impressed with the performance but it would not stay running. I have heard of others having problems with the remote loader control. If it would run that would be a neat hoe. Deere came up with some cool ideas.

Scag48
02-08-2008, 01:34 AM
Yeah, performance issues aside, I've heard a few negative remarks from the feel of the E/H backhoe controls on the J series Deere's, which is really a bummer because the TCM package is pretty rad. Everyone loves traditional pilots, but I've heard a few guys not liking the feel of the E/H on the Deere's. Could be these guys don't like E/H at all and might not be a Deere only problem, but I talked to a couple guys running the new E series Cat's and they seemed to get along just fine with the E/H backhoe controls.

I guess I really have to ask a stupid question; why do we really need E/H? I can run that J series backhoe just like I could run a D series hoe, I don't really see why this technology is going to help accomplish more. I suppose it's fine and good if there were zero systems failure like good 'ol pilot controls, but it seems like E/H is creating issues with some MFG's and their reliability. Makes you want to run an older machine and say to hell with the new stuff.

ksss
02-08-2008, 02:02 AM
What makes E/H desireable is the amount of control that is available with E/H. The AMICs system is possible because of E/H. The ability to electronicly control the hyd. makes many things possible. However it brings electronics into a piece of equipment that lives in and breaths in the dirt. The first machines to field it the backhoes have had problems. The E series backhoes and apparently the Deere are having teething problems. I imagine that the skid steers will also bring in a new round of issues. BC has had its issues with E/H and CAT will likely as well. I think the systems will improve and become more dependable. I was told by a CASE engineer that eventually everything will be E/H. I believe it will also become more common to have electrical issues. The bigger issue is the difficulty in fixing these problems. Regardless of the OEM, as electronics find their way further into heavy equipment these issues will become the norm. Especially with machines like skid steers and backhoes. There are no pieces of dirt moving equipment that are subject to more abuse than are these two.

I think as these machines get more complex, an owner will have to protect themselves from the higher cost of repairs. Regardless of make, I think if you own an E/H equipped machine or really any thing built within the last couple of years you need to protect yourself. The best way to do that is with an extended warranty.

It is unlikely that the average contractor will be able to fix the types of problems that can occur with these machines. The cost of diagnosing and repairing these issues will be expensive. With an extended warranty that covers you front to back, you know what your costs because you paid them up front. Except for things that you break there are no repair bills, that to me is managing your costs.

I got a little off topic didn't I.;)

Scag48
02-08-2008, 02:11 AM
I can appreciate the AMICS system in a skid steer. I suppose in a backhoe there is quite a bit going on that could be controlled with just the joystick. Like shifting, directional control, etc.. However I will agree, the costs of diagnosing these problems is through the roof, especially since there aren't enough techs working in the shops as it is. Extended warranty is definately a good plan, especially if you're buying into a machine with new technology.

qps
02-08-2008, 07:15 AM
There must have been something not right with the NH setup. I like TK's pilots but I hardly think CAT has anything on anybody (the EH not withstanding as I have not run that yet) the B series is not a great pilots system. Ironicly the NH pilots and the CAT pilot system are the same components (Rexroth pilot components).


I assume Gehl's and TK are the same pilot controls, the one I demoed showed me nothing, no better than the B series CATS...one should try the new C series controls, they have the most responsive pilots I've tried...I haven't tried CASE and I'm sure there head over heels better than anything on the market and half the price, :dizzy:...

KRtraxx
02-08-2008, 08:13 AM
Hopefully they put some time and effort into making them good. I tried a set on a New Holland and they were horrible. They had such a delay in them I couldn't believe it. When I let go of the joystick the boom or bucket would continue to move for about a second. Also when raising the boom when I let go the boom would drop down about 2 inches. Maybe it was just that one but I have talked to some local landscapers and they had the same issues. They said they would never buy joysticks again. They are trading back for foot controls as soon as possible. I told them that the Takeuchi's and Cat's are the greatest thing to ever happen with their joysticks.

Was it a 175 NH that you drove?.Those first ones of those the pilots were NOT good.I worked with one of their field reps for a couple days on this issue explaining the problem of lack of response..They have since came up with a fix for this and it does work well now.Have not driven the Cat C series but compared to the earlier series the(NHs) respond a bit quicker IMO.The hyds. are made by the same company as Cats,Rexroth. And Rexroth was there helping when they needed to update the 175 pilots. The issue of the boom dropping an inch or so after lifting? is STILL an issue..It should be solved shortly....The new(2005) NHs 180 size and up have a servo assist on the hand/foot machine controls.(for the main forward and back travel) This makes a HUGE difference on operator fatigue(for the arms anyway).They dont have this on the 175 and down models.In nasty applications(stuck,rocking your way out,over a log,tearing a bucket load of stuck stringy material out of a pile)The old style controls where you operate each wheel side independantly can still do more in those types of situations than pilots..
The TKs pilots do work well and are very responsive.On true pilot controls I think not having the anti stall gives a bit more feedback to the operator.Cant say on Cats new C series if it is better,havent spent any seat time in one yet.I'm sure the adjustablity of E/H controls can change totally how a machine feels...The Mustang/Gehl pilots are VERY responsive.(wheeled machines).Almost a bit TOO quick I think on the shorter wheelbase units..However when you bolt on a VTS to them it makes them feel just right.

KRtraxx
02-08-2008, 08:24 AM
Something to take note of.In cold weather a pilot machine is NEVER going to react correctly till the oil is at operating temp.So dont judge a machine till the temps are up to normal..I remember selling a new Cat 236 to a guy back in 99 when they first came out.(Cats lines to the pilots were too small at that time) The day of delivery he parked it proudly in his front yard next to his new pickup that he bought the week before.The next morning (it was below 0 temp) he started it up to move it..The oil in the controls was so cold and stiff that even when he turned it back left it kept going right long enough to run the bucket into the side of his new truck.. NOT good .. lol ;)

qps
02-08-2008, 08:27 AM
I didn't care for the gehl pilots or machine for that matter, the non anit stall was annoying to say the least, I spent more time restarting the machine, decent power, pilots had a delay in them I didn't care for, a/c was poorly designed, I don't know what to tell you guys that haven't tried the new C series controls but comment on how badly CATS machines are or how they are overpriced, I would say to that.....you need to sharpen your negotiating skills, I have never bought a CAT machine that was priced more than a competitors....or if it was higher it was due to a better optioned macine...

KRtraxx
02-08-2008, 09:07 AM
I sold two 18" VTSs to a customer who builds fence commercial..His complaint was that on his 268B with VTS,with the heavy post pounder out front,that he could not move the front of the skid over a few inches to line up his pounder when lining up.He would have to back up a bit to realign himself. On his 6640E Gehl with pilots and VTS(same size pounder) he could blip the throttle and the unit would respond left or right without having to backup.Everybody has different things they like or dislike about certain machines..Thats why theres so many brands to choose from.:drinkup:

BIGBEN2004
02-08-2008, 09:11 AM
Yea different STROKES, different FOKES.....

qps
02-08-2008, 09:46 AM
I sold two 18" VTSs to a customer who builds fence commercial..His complaint was that on his 268B with VTS,with the heavy post pounder out front,that he could not move the front of the skid over a few inches to line up his pounder when lining up.He would have to back up a bit to realign himself. On his 6640E Gehl with pilots and VTS(same size pounder) he could blip the throttle and the unit would respond left or right without having to backup.Everybody has different things they like or dislike about certain machines..Thats why theres so many brands to choose from.:drinkup:


On my 297C I can move it either direction with little effort and great control...
Again......let the nay sayers try the C seriers then chime in....

bobcat_ron
02-08-2008, 10:48 AM
There will be more complaints regarding that issue of turning in little increments with the VTS, that's why Cat put planetaries in the MTL's, everyone complained that certain models were dogs to turn with one track because of the insane amount of traction and the extra power needed to move just one track very slowly.

One of my speculations is that Cat will have a new type of CTL out in 2 years that uses the VTS type set up but with an external planetary system to provide true 2 speed travel and gobs of low end torque.

ksss
02-08-2008, 11:26 AM
I don't really follow the logic on that one.



The price on the 440 Series 3 as I built it is $40,200.

Thats a lot of Cabbage.


I have decided to pass for now on this machine. I am just under a thousand hours and short of a killer program or I get an outstanding trade allowance. It does not pencil out.

I paid 34.5K or so for my current 440 and it is on near free money .09% interest rate. Besides I want to see how this VTS thing works out. I may go a different direction.

At the rate that the snow has accumulated, the VTS may have proven to be a timely purchase. They declared the area North of me a disaster area and now FEMA is involved. I wish I still had my HF snow blower. There is going to be some money being made. They are outfitting large AG tractors with huge triple auger blowers to open up much of that part of the State.

RockSet N' Grade
02-08-2008, 12:02 PM
Can't wait to see newspaper headlines from the ag. snowblowers. Several years back up your way in Wyoming they had cattle that would go find shelter in an underpass and they froze on the hoof and then got snow buried.........Then the snowblowers arrived and tried to snow blow frozen beef...........quite a mental picture. So Ksss, since the state is looking for loans........you gonna loan them some money? You wanna borrow my tractor and snowblower? Have you sent QPS that hat and potato ear rings that you made during arts and crafts time?......still cold here, but the phone is starting to ring for spring time bids........

qps
02-08-2008, 02:08 PM
Can't wait to see newspaper headlines from the ag. snowblowers. Several years back up your way in Wyoming they had cattle that would go find shelter in an underpass and they froze on the hoof and then got snow buried.........Then the snowblowers arrived and tried to snow blow frozen beef...........quite a mental picture. So Ksss, since the state is looking for loans........you gonna loan them some money? You wanna borrow my tractor and snowblower? Have you sent QPS that hat and potato ear rings that you made during arts and crafts time?......still cold here, but the phone is starting to ring for spring time bids........

No...still no Mr. Potato head or ear rings....or HAT;)

RockSet N' Grade
02-08-2008, 06:18 PM
As an aside to a wandering thread: Talked to one of my competators today......he has had 14-20 guys going full steam for years now. He is now, as of last week, down to his foreman and one guy answering the phone.......everyone else is GONE! Another excavator is selling his trucks and all his equipment.........he is out of business and is owed $100k that the people refuse to pay even though there was no problem with the work.....they just decided to keep the money.

NateV
02-08-2008, 07:07 PM
he is out of business and is owed $100k that the people refuse to pay even though there was no problem with the work.....they just decided to keep the money.


There has to be more to that story.

RockSet N' Grade
02-08-2008, 07:38 PM
yea Nate, there is.......in a nutshell without going into a philosophical expose........this is UTAH!!! I know this guy and he does top notch, on budget work....upfront and honest.

cat2
02-08-2008, 09:38 PM
I don't really follow the logic on that one.



The price on the 440 Series 3 as I built it is $40,200.

Thats a lot of Cabbage.



that is a very good price i think:walking:

ksss
02-08-2008, 11:11 PM
that is a very good price i think:walking:


I think he is cutting me a good deal. The MSRP is 50K but it is still a lot of money. Granted it is a lot of machine. We'll see what happens.

BIGBEN2004
02-08-2008, 11:21 PM
That seems alittle high for a tire machine.Maybe I am wrong but that seems very high. Unless it is a CTL then that would be a good price.
I had a 440CT priced out when I was shopping. It had Cab, heat, air, loader suspension, joystick controls, Hyd. release for the bucket pins, and a heavy duty tooth bucket. They were going to sell it to me for $46,000 brand new. I bought my Takeuchi TL130 for $38,000 brand new with cab, heat, air, radio, and a heavy duty tooth bucket.

YellowDogSVC
02-08-2008, 11:42 PM
That seems alittle high for a tire machine.Maybe I am wrong but that seems very high. Unless it is a CTL then that would be a good price.
I had a 440CT priced out when I was shopping. It had Cab, heat, air, loader suspension, joystick controls, Hyd. release for the bucket pins, and a heavy duty tooth bucket. They were going to sell it to me for $46,000 brand new. I bought my Takeuchi TL130 for $38,000 brand new with cab, heat, air, radio, and a heavy duty tooth bucket.

Have you seen CAT prices lately?

BIGBEN2004
02-08-2008, 11:49 PM
I don't think I want to. How bad are they getting now a days? I imagine a new 297 track machine is nearing the $70,000 mark, and the new 272 tire machine is probally nearing $60,000

KRtraxx
02-09-2008, 09:24 AM
On my 297C I can move it either direction with little effort and great control...
Again......let the nay sayers try the C seriers then chime in....

Yes I would guess the E/H controls would be a totally different feel.Its a total different system.. Will have a chance to drive a 272 this coming week..Should be fun..

KRtraxx
02-09-2008, 09:28 AM
The Series 3 machines are released for ordering. My salesman has a guy who is interested in buying my 440. He asked what I wanted for mine. I really don't want to sell it but for the right number everything I own is for sale. The Series three machines can now be ordered so I built one the way I want.

The 440 got an increase to 90 hp and the ROC stayed at 2200.

I picked the following options
Hyd. Coupler
Heat/AC with glass door (heavy demo door is an option)
64" wide with 12X16.5 tires
72" hd extended lip bucket
lift cylinder guard
proportional aux. hyd control
aux. front hyd. controls
Interior mirror
Interior trim
noise reduction package
Aspirator
Pilots H pattern
radio
rotating beacon
Ride control
2-speed
Block heater.
Deluxe air seat with with heat in the seat.

I should find out what it will cost tomorrow or the next day.

ksss, Is that heated seat option something new or aftermarket?? It doesnt show it in my new price list.

KRtraxx
02-09-2008, 09:36 AM
I think he is cutting me a good deal. The MSRP is 50K but it is still a lot of money. Granted it is a lot of machine. We'll see what happens.

I dont know what your getting for a trade value..But if you were quoted 40K on a 50K list price to take it home outright.Hes( the dealer) making a little bit but not very much.Trade in value I guess would be the true determining factor.. List prices have come up quite a bit.Case/NH had a hefty increase the first the year...

YellowDogSVC
02-09-2008, 11:10 AM
I don't think I want to. How bad are they getting now a days? I imagine a new 297 track machine is nearing the $70,000 mark, and the new 272 tire machine is probally nearing $60,000

crank those numbers up a bit. :dizzy: A 256c is 53k.

YellowDogSVC
02-09-2008, 11:11 AM
Yes I would guess the E/H controls would be a totally different feel.Its a total different system.. Will have a chance to drive a 272 this coming week..Should be fun..

those machines are a joy to operate, really.

BIGBEN2004
02-09-2008, 11:33 AM
those machines are a joy to operate, really.
For those kind of numbers I don't care how nice they are to run, by the time the machine could even start to return on investment it would be time to trade the thing in. How much higher in cost do they really think the word CAT is worth. I know CAT makes high quality stuff but also I think the name and reputation from the old days is getting to their heads. Maybe back in the early days of heavy machines CAT ruled but now a days their are more and more competition brands on the market that can in many cases blow the doors off of CAT machines and do it at a fraction of the price. Just think of when you have to buy parts for the CAT machine if the price of the machine is way to high then the parts for it are going to follow the same path. Just an example my buddy who owns a 257B had the motor blow up. It was under warranty thank GOD because it would have cost him about $14,000 according to the dealer.

iron peddler
02-09-2008, 04:56 PM
ksss, you are getting a fairly good number on the 440, atleast in my area that is close to what my competitive dealer is doing....as far as the cat prices those aren't even close to list prices.....way to high of a price...list on a cab, ac, air ride seat, 78in tooth, steel idler option , self level 287c = mid 60's, 297c= low 70....that is list not the selling price.....make sure you are gettig accurate numbers before we start mis informing the masses.

before you get mad ksss i am not accusing you have giving out bad Cat pricing:drinkup:

Scag48
02-09-2008, 05:02 PM
You guys ever pay the asking price for trucks? Didn't think so. MSRP is exactly that, a listed price. I'd put $100 on myself getting a quote for a loaded up 297C tomorrow for around $57K.

Then again, I bleed Cat yellow, so I can pull a few strings. :laugh:

YellowDogSVC
02-09-2008, 05:54 PM
lmake sure you are gettig accurate numbers before we start mis informing the masses.
:

I have a quote sitting in front of me for a 272c with all the options putting it in middle lower $60's which I thought was high. A friend of mine that recently purchased a 256c with CAT owner incentives, with cab and ac, XPS, and loegering OTR tracks, paid around $53k

iron peddler
02-09-2008, 06:21 PM
there is a lot of different ways to look at this...what are you trading? what kind of number are you getting for it? what did you pay for that unit? some guys like to deal off of list and give a huge over allowance on the trade..there are too many ways to get into it...out of respect for your dealer i will not question the numbers....i just don't deal off of list, most of my customers don't consider buying of off list...but i will say that alot of our long time customers always ask when i quote is that list or not? they like the haggle idea...now some of the newer customers don't like to haggle that much and want to know what our deal is so they can go shop it to the next guy and see what kind of deal he would work...i am not questioning those practices, just letting you know not everyone plays by the same rules i guess.

YellowDogSVC
02-09-2008, 06:45 PM
there is a lot of different ways to look at this...what are you trading? what kind of number are you getting for it? what did you pay for that unit? some guys like to deal off of list and give a huge over allowance on the trade..there are too many ways to get into it...out of respect for your dealer i will not question the numbers....i just don't deal off of list, most of my customers don't consider buying of off list...but i will say that alot of our long time customers always ask when i quote is that list or not? they like the haggle idea...now some of the newer customers don't like to haggle that much and want to know what our deal is so they can go shop it to the next guy and see what kind of deal he would work...i am not questioning those practices, just letting you know not everyone plays by the same rules i guess.

no trade. I asked for best price. This dealer has been trying to get me to switch from Bobcat to CAT for a while. I recently bought a 20k plus cat attachment and wanted a machine. I have a signed quote and I asked 2x for the best possible deal they could give me especially since I was switching from one brand to another. I have owned 9 Bobcats in 10 years. All large machines, plus many attachments so CAT knows they are getting a loyal customer if they could make the numbers work. I expected the best price possible when I made it clear the numbers mattered. The machine I want to replace only has 400 hrs and only cost 43k for similar specs. CAT knows my gripes about Bobcat right now and why I initiated the switch but with some lingering questions and not being able make numbers work, I don't know if I will switch.

Construct'O
02-09-2008, 07:41 PM
Do you think that with the Cat machine that you will be able to be more productive then the Bobcat that you have now?????

If that was the case( not more productive) then it really is not going to be a decidng factor in the actual price difference of the change in brands.

It would at least make me feel better,that i would be getting a more productive machine altho costing more.If not then your really not gaining much ground other then the conforts that your hoping to see in the Cat.Right?

Where your not planning on trading in a machine at this time i would think that they should have some wiggle room on the sale.

Unless your undecided about trading in your other machine,then i would make that real clear to the sales rep so he know for sure.He might be still holding that back on his pricing of now,not being sure your not going to change your mind.

I guess another thing is that in some areas the supply and demand kicks in to play also.

If there not having a hard time moving equipment then they have time on there side.When all said it does become a game it just depends on who can play it the best,far as i see it:dancing:.

Good luck:usflag:

YellowDogSVC
02-09-2008, 08:02 PM
Do you think that with the Cat machine that you will be able to be more productive then the Bobcat that you have now?????

If that was the case( not more productive) then it really is not going to be a decidng factor in the actual price difference of the change in brands.

It would at least make me feel better,that i would be getting a more productive machine altho costing more.If not then your really not gaining much ground other then the conforts that your hoping to see in the Cat.Right?

Where your not planning on trading in a machine at this time i would think that they should have some wiggle room on the sale.

:usflag:

I am undecided about trade. I do truly believe that the CAT would be more productive based on specs. I haven't had a chance to run my cat mulcher yet on a cat machine. I tend to beat things to death. Made HUGE mistakes on hauling vehicles a while back and don't want to repeat. I need that extra bit of productivity to speed of grinding though I don't grind day in and out. I need to speed up that segment of my services because it is where I make my extra money = to my chipping. I can't make enough of a living tree shearing due to the competitors with small machines shearing for $50/hr. Customer doesn't understand the difference in productivity and I have found that the cheap guys flat out lie about what they can do. Mulching on the other hand, really can't be done effectively with a cheap machine. Just ain't gonna happen so I am left with filling the needs of many services with a swiss army knife of a machine but I don't want to over pay and have that bad taste going forward or find out that I get a machine that I am trading back to Bobcat in a year or so because it wasn't up to the tasks that my Bobcat's have proven themselves on (though just not fast enough for me at this stage).

Construct'O
02-09-2008, 08:03 PM
there is a lot of different ways to look at this...what are you trading? what kind of number are you getting for it? what did you pay for that unit? some guys like to deal off of list and give a huge over allowance on the trade..there are too many ways to get into it...out of respect for your dealer i will not question the numbers....i just don't deal off of list, most of my customers don't consider buying of off list...but i will say that alot of our long time customers always ask when i quote is that list or not? they like the haggle idea...now some of the newer customers don't like to haggle that much and want to know what our deal is so they can go shop it to the next guy and see what kind of deal he would work...i am not questioning those practices, just letting you know not everyone plays by the same rules i guess.

Iron Peddler ,who know i might want to haggle with you someday,time will tell.Getting less of that every year.

As far as Out Right low price the first time!!!!!!!! i don't think so.An if it is and i was selling i would sure hope that the customer would still give me that one more change to at less say no, before he bought from the other guy.

Selling isn't much different then moving dirt,some times you win and sometimes you loss.With high price fuel,high steel prices, and uncertain economcy it makes all of our jobs tuffer.

I have found out over the years and think of this more every year ........ is that it only takes a few seconds:rolleyes: to sign your name to that purchase agreement !!!!!!!!! but a lot of sweat and tears sometimes to pay for it :cry: :usflag:

Fieldman12
02-09-2008, 08:16 PM
I think you should look at one of the new Deere machines coming out. I bet they would have a better price and do everything you ask of it. Hopefully it will have the pressurized cab and pilots. One person on here stated it may have electric over hydraulic. I am suppose to go to the farm show next week so I will let you know if the new machine is there.

Fieldman12
02-09-2008, 08:19 PM
I think the Case machine with new cab may be a good machine for you also. I would not be so quick to sign the papers. I love Cat equipment but in my opinion they are way over priced and from things I have been hearing from several sources lately there equipment just is not what it use to be.

cat2
02-09-2008, 08:54 PM
I think you should look at one of the new Deere machines coming out. I bet they would have a better price and do everything you ask of it. Hopefully it will have the pressurized cab and pilots. One person on here stated it may have electric over hydraulic. I am suppose to go to the farm show next week so I will let you know if the new machine is there.




i hope it is. get lots of pics:cool2::cool2:

dozerman21
02-09-2008, 10:06 PM
I have found out over the years and think of this more every year ........ is that it only takes a few seconds to sign your name to that purchase agreement !!!!!!!!! but a lot of sweat and tears sometimes to pay for it

Spoken like someone who has moved a little bit of dirt and seen a few things in his life. Priceless words Construct'O!:usflag::drinkup:

P.Services
02-09-2008, 10:08 PM
the new deeres wont have pressurized cabs.

iron peddler
02-09-2008, 11:02 PM
[/I]Iron Peddler ,who know i might want to haggle with you someday,time will tell.Getting less of that every year.

As far as Out Right low price the first time!!!!!!!! i don't think so.An if it is and i was selling i would sure hope that the customer would still give me that one more change to at less say no, before he bought from the other guy.[/I]

Construct O, I am not saying that my phone quote is my best shot, if it was I wouldn't get many second chances as you say......but my first quote sure isn't the numbers I have seen reported here...besides I won't sell to someone unless the have some stick time and cover any concerns they may have....it is actually suprising how many calls i get from guys just wanting a number...i bet over 50% of them are just trying to keep their salesman honest.

YellowDogSVC
02-09-2008, 11:13 PM
[/I]Iron Peddler ,who know i might want to haggle with you someday,time will tell.Getting less of that every year.

As far as Out Right low price the first time!!!!!!!! i don't think so.An if it is and i was selling i would sure hope that the customer would still give me that one more change to at less say no, before he bought from the other guy.[/I]

Construct O, I am not saying that my phone quote is my best shot, if it was I wouldn't get many second chances as you say......but my first quote sure isn't the numbers I have seen reported here...besides I won't sell to someone unless the have some stick time and cover any concerns they may have....it is actually suprising how many calls i get from guys just wanting a number...i bet over 50% of them are just trying to keep their salesman honest.

I have to ask what is wrong with keeping the sales guy honest? Why call 2x and get two different prices? Why not give an honest price based on what you need to make on the deal to be profitable? It's the games I could do without. If someone asks for prices for a machine with X,Y,and Z, why not price it honest the first time? I just don't understand why car salesman, equipment dealers, and gas companies play with the numbers so much. Is there any integrity in sales?

dozerman21
02-09-2008, 11:43 PM
Yellow- That's pretty much what it is, a big game. Guys have to make several calls because so much of the time you can't stick with one salesman or sales manager, and you end up dealing with guys you haven't trusted and dealt with over the years. You need to get a "cash" price before you have your trade in machine figured in to the deal. Otherwise, the price of the machine gets jacked up so they can offer more or your machine.

It will continue to be this way, it's just how it is. I hate the whole process. It gets strung out and if you're looking at several machines you go through it for each one. I realize dealerships have to make money. I don't try to grind it down to the last penny, but I want a fair deal and since our salesman for many years retired, we've had to watch the dog and pony show from several different dealerships.

Isn't it about time for Sam's Club starts selling equipment?:weightlifter:

iron peddler
02-09-2008, 11:46 PM
i hate to say it but it seems lately integrity doesn't seem to come into play much anymore...sorry to get you stirred up there yellow dog...i don't get my machines any cheaper from Cat then your dealer...those numbers just don't seem right and hopefully something works out for you regardless of brand....i am not here to defend anyone or point a finger and say bs...i just didn't agree with those numbers and prob should of get my mouth shut. if you want to talk about it some more send me a pm...if not that is cool and i will stay out of this thread unless asked.*trucewhiteflag*

ksss
02-10-2008, 12:15 AM
ksss, Is that heated seat option something new or aftermarket?? It doesnt show it in my new price list.

Yea its an option on the Series 3 machines.

ksss
02-10-2008, 01:34 AM
ksss, you are getting a fairly good number on the 440, atleast in my area that is close to what my competitive dealer is doing....as far as the cat prices those aren't even close to list prices.....way to high of a price...list on a cab, ac, air ride seat, 78in tooth, steel idler option , self level 287c = mid 60's, 297c= low 70....that is list not the selling price.....make sure you are gettig accurate numbers before we start mis informing the masses.

before you get mad ksss i am not accusing you have giving out bad Cat pricing:drinkup:


I didn't post any CAT prices. I did build a 256 on CATs website and it MSRPed at 54K. That seems in the ball park of the CASE 440. Hard to believe how much skid steer prices have risen. I have bought new machines starting in 1995 and the prices have spiraled, granted the machines are a lot more productive and advanced than those machines were. The 95XT's and my current 465 were in the low to mid 40's. They all were fully loaded and that is a lot of machine. The 440 now landing in the 40's is a little harder to swallow.

On the topic of keeping your salesman honest. I do that as well. My salesman is a good friend. We take our wives out for dinner together and go ATV riding. However, business is business. Checking on your salesman is not easy as most dealers will not quote a machine that is out of their area. Based on what Iron Peddler and KRtraxx have said I guess it would be a fair deal. My trade value I am not sure of as they have not come out to look at my machine. It has been pushing snow almost nonstop. I would need a trade in the mid to high 20's to make it work and I doubt I will see that.

YellowDogSVC
02-10-2008, 03:24 AM
Yellow- That's pretty much what it is, a big game. Guys have to make several calls because so much of the time you can't stick with one salesman or sales manager, and you end up dealing with guys you haven't trusted and dealt with over the years. You need to get a "cash" price before you have your trade in machine figured in to the deal. Otherwise, the price of the machine gets jacked up so they can offer more or your machine.

It will continue to be this way, it's just how it is. I hate the whole process. It gets strung out and if you're looking at several machines you go through it for each one. I realize dealerships have to make money. I don't try to grind it down to the last penny, but I want a fair deal and since our salesman for many years retired, we've had to watch the dog and pony show from several different dealerships.

Isn't it about time for Sam's Club starts selling equipment?:weightlifter:


I'm just glad I'm not the only one that feels this way though I did feel my CAT guy was working with me and Bobcat has been pretty good but in the past I have gotten 2 prices, on two different days from same guy for same machine and same options!

YellowDogSVC
02-10-2008, 03:27 AM
i hate to say it but it seems lately integrity doesn't seem to come into play much anymore...sorry to get you stirred up there yellow dog...i don't get my machines any cheaper from Cat then your dealer...those numbers just don't seem right and hopefully something works out for you regardless of brand....i am not here to defend anyone or point a finger and say bs...i just didn't agree with those numbers and prob should of get my mouth shut. if you want to talk about it some more send me a pm...if not that is cool and i will stay out of this thread unless asked.*trucewhiteflag*

Hey, I'm hear for info, not just to gripe. I just don't like games. Don't have enough time for that and I don't do it to my customers. I have a number in my head based on what I need for profit and if I'm asked about daily work it is generally a consistent answer from person to person unless the factors change in the equation. I just have this saying that I try and live by, "Above all, Be Honest". It's real simple. I just wonder about integrity. It isn't just for the machine sales. It applies to dirt movers too.

qps
02-10-2008, 08:51 AM
I didn't post any CAT prices. I did build a 256 on CATs website and it MSRPed at 54K. That seems in the ball park of the CASE 440. Hard to believe how much skid steer prices have risen. I have bought new machines starting in 1995 and the prices have spiraled, granted the machines are a lot more productive and advanced than those machines were. The 95XT's and my current 465 were in the low to mid 40's. They all were fully loaded and that is a lot of machine. The 440 now landing in the 40's is a little harder to swallow.

On the topic of keeping your salesman honest. I do that as well. My salesman is a good friend. We take our wives out for dinner together and go ATV riding. However, business is business. Checking on your salesman is not easy as most dealers will not quote a machine that is out of their area. Based on what Iron Peddler and KRtraxx have said I guess it would be a fair deal. My trade value I am not sure of as they have not come out to look at my machine. It has been pushing snow almost nonstop. I would need a trade in the mid to high 20's to make it work and I doubt I will see that.

posted prices on the build and quote are similar to MSRP on cars and trucks, I can tell you I paid NO way near the price they show for a loaded 297C..this is why I laugh when I near some complain on the CAT prices, if your willing to take the time the deals are there to be made, I don't like it either but it's the game they make us play, like uncle sam and taxes, I will be the first to admit that CAT equipment is higher than most if not all...but not much...and if the service is there its worth alittle more IMO...I won't jack salesmen around...I tell them up front I'm looking at other brands and will demo them, quote them and will base my decision on this criteria, what's the saying the kids use "dont hate the player, hate the game"...that's my gangster talk:laugh:

BIGBEN2004
02-10-2008, 11:37 AM
I always tell the salesman to give me their best price and that I did not come their to play games. I tell them I am trying out all the competitor brands and also other dealerships that sell the same machine they sell. After I go around and get prices from every dealer I want to then I make my decision on the best price, closest dealer, and most friendly dearer I worked with. After I mix all that up I go with the one I liked. If that dealer didn't offer the lowest price then I tell them about the dealer that did and show them the quote. Most of the time this works and then you also get the best price. I do this with equipment and vehicles.

Fieldman12
02-10-2008, 11:55 AM
ksss, I agree that you would need a number on the high end of the twenties to trade in. I know you have made a good bit of money with the machine and it has almost 1,000 hours I think you said. It is still a pretty big hit because the machine would now just be turning close to two years old. Any less and it is not far from half the worth you paid for it. How much are they normally marking them up to resell them?

ksss
02-10-2008, 12:08 PM
ksss, I agree that you would need a number on the high end of the twenties to trade in. I know you have made a good bit of money with the machine and it has almost 1,000 hours I think you said. It is still a pretty big hit because the machine would now just be turning close to two years old. Any less and it is not far from half the worth you paid for it. How much are they normally marking them up to resell them?

They made 3K on my 70XT when I traded it in. They have have marked up other trades of mine much more. The 95XT and TB53 were both marked up 6K over what I was given. I don't know what they sold at. The 70XT went to a friend of mine so I know that number. I paid 34.5 for my current 440 with almost 1K hours I will not see high twenties on trade, but I would like to. I will likely be keeping it another year or two.

Fieldman12
02-10-2008, 01:07 PM
Okay, I was thiking for some reason you paid $40,000.00 for it. That is a little better then.

Tigerotor77W
02-13-2008, 11:42 PM
83 net horsepower for the 440.

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/xwang22/Public/CCE12170704.pdf

stuvecorp
02-19-2008, 08:20 PM
Had to bump this up. Any one have pics of the series 3?

ksss
02-19-2008, 11:36 PM
Had to bump this up. Any one have pics of the series 3?


I have seen the pictures of it. I will see if I can get them emailed to me.

stuvecorp
02-20-2008, 12:09 AM
That would be great. There seems to be way to much yellow on here, need to balance things out.

ksss
02-20-2008, 12:41 AM
That would be great. There seems to be way to much yellow on here, need to balance things out.


It feels like I am watching sheep go over the cliff with CAT logos branded on their azz and little suspended undercarriages for feet. Like the saying goes. You save the ones you can and the high purchase price, high maintenance costs and low resale will take the rest.:rolleyes:

qps
02-20-2008, 09:01 AM
That would be great. There seems to be way to much yellow on here, need to balance things out.


3 post and taking sides already, I see you have joined the evil KSSS army...

BIGBEN2004
02-20-2008, 09:22 AM
I just wana see pictures...... I am curious what the doors will look like on the new series.

stuvecorp
02-20-2008, 12:17 PM
Long live power tan...keep repeating...

xkv8r
02-20-2008, 04:41 PM
Bobcat and Cat had to add all the bells and whistles B.s. (creature comforts) just to make there machines tolerable for an 8 hr day. All I have to say is run a bobcat or cat with over 1100 hrs and run a CASE ,those machines feel sloppy and worn out. The CASE is the only one with resale value, 2-3 year old bobcats and cats go for next to nothing.

YellowDogSVC
02-20-2008, 04:51 PM
Bobcat and Cat had to add all the bells and whistles B.s. (creature comforts) just to make there machines tolerable for an 8 hr day. All I have to say is run a bobcat or cat with over 1100 hrs and run a CASE ,those machines feel sloppy and worn out. The CASE is the only one with resale value, 2-3 year old bobcats and cats go for next to nothing.

Where are you getting your resale info? I have yet to see a 2-3 year old Bobcat go for next to nothing! :rolleyes: unless it was a machine that was just particularly beat to heck.

YellowDogSVC
02-20-2008, 04:54 PM
The Series 3 machines are released for ordering. My salesman has a guy who is interested in buying my 440. He asked what I wanted for mine. I really don't want to sell it but for the right number everything I own is for sale. The Series three machines can now be ordered so I built one the way I want.

The 440 got an increase to 90 hp and the ROC stayed at 2200.

I .

Is the 440 the biggest machine in the lineup?

ksss
02-20-2008, 05:14 PM
No the 465 would be biggest. I am not sure what the horsepower increase was on that machine in the Series three. It has had the same hp as the 440, but the ROC goes up to 3600 with counter weight or 3000 without. I was told that some machines received an increase in ROC. Again I am not sure what if any increase the 465 received in ROC.

Tigerotor77W
02-20-2008, 05:34 PM
83 net horsepower (90 gross), 3000 ROC (3200 counterweight), and 7,400 pounds bucket breakout force on the 465.

stuvecorp
02-20-2008, 11:10 PM
3 post and taking sides already, I see you have joined the evil KSSS army...

The force called out and we come running...

Qps, I like your differnet avitars

qps
02-20-2008, 11:31 PM
Bobcat and Cat had to add all the bells and whistles B.s. (creature comforts) just to make there machines tolerable for an 8 hr day. All I have to say is run a bobcat or cat with over 1100 hrs and run a CASE ,those machines feel sloppy and worn out. The CASE is the only one with resale value, 2-3 year old bobcats and cats go for next to nothing.


Dude....quit smoking those corn stalks.....:dizzy:

qps
02-20-2008, 11:32 PM
The force called out and we come running...

Qps, I like your differnet avitars


Yeah...reminds me of a fungus spreading.....

Scag48
02-21-2008, 04:33 AM
I will give Case one thing, those 650K's can be had with basically no hours on them (less than 2,000) for about $60K. You know what they say, Can't Afford Something Else.

Case should start building trucks, I could probably afford a new one with all the options and still have money left over even with my lousy restaurant job. :laugh:

xkv8r
02-21-2008, 08:33 AM
Dude....quit smoking those corn stalks.....:dizzy:

Dude ,you are so hilarious. I go from machine to machine quite a bit , go try to trade your machine if you have one and see what they will give you for it.

qps
02-21-2008, 10:31 AM
Dude ,you are so hilarious. I go from machine to machine quite a bit , go try to trade your machine if you have one and see what they will give you for it.

I don't have one:cry:

ksss
02-28-2008, 02:27 PM
I just got the revised torque ratings for the 440, 450 and 465. They went up to 288 foot pounds. I can't imagine how the new 440 will run with that kind of torque. I cant think of a wheeled machine making anywhere close to that kind of power. Now we will have to see how they work in the dirt. They sure look good on paper.

Scag48
02-28-2008, 03:14 PM
I bet they'll just flip right over backwords, rendering them useless. :laugh:

ksss
02-28-2008, 03:22 PM
I bet they'll just flip right over backwords, rendering them useless. :laugh:

They just might. I like that kinda power.:weightlifter:

iron peddler
02-28-2008, 09:10 PM
i am going to stir the pot here....but you guys ever asked your salesman where and how you lose 7 hp between gross and net numbers? parasitic loss of power in a small engine platform is an actual factor...especially on fuel consumption...i not picking on case only, bobcat, nh, and others have there problems too....i would think over time those loses would get worse.

BIGBEN2004
02-28-2008, 09:14 PM
I always thought that Gross power was at the flywheel and Net power was after the pumps .

YellowDogSVC
02-28-2008, 09:27 PM
i am going to stir the pot here....but you guys ever asked your salesman where and how you lose 7 hp between gross and net numbers? parasitic loss of power in a small engine platform is an actual factor...especially on fuel consumption...i not picking on case only, bobcat, nh, and others have there problems too....i would think over time those loses would get worse.

Can you explain this?

iron peddler
02-28-2008, 09:44 PM
check out the spec sheets, no one hides it the spec.....bigben i think you are correct on how it is figured but i am not an engineer so i can't verify how they figure it......but if you loose almost 10% before it goes to the pump, then you have a inefficent system of pumps, fittings and hoses i would have a hard time thinking you are getting all the power that you are feeding fuel to......i repeat i am not an engineer so i could be asking a stupid question

BIGBEN2004
02-28-2008, 09:54 PM
That is why I say Gross is at the Flywheel(engine) and Net is after the power was sent through the pumps. Every time you transfer power you loose a percentage. It is like a Diesel engine running a generator. The engine produces X amount of power. After it goes into the generator and comes out in electricity if you convert the amount of electricity back to Horse Power it will always be less then what the engine put out to make it.

iron peddler
02-28-2008, 10:00 PM
okay so where does the case 440 lose 7 hp at? not picking on them just using them for the example..

BIGBEN2004
02-28-2008, 10:04 PM
When you say they loose 7 hp do you mean the difference between their Gross power ratings and their Net power ratings?

iron peddler
02-28-2008, 10:11 PM
so it is ok to lose 7hp in the hydraulic system? it is not evidently a factor so i will not bring it up again.

Tigerotor77W
02-28-2008, 11:48 PM
I always thought that Gross power was at the flywheel and Net power was after the pumps .

Gross power should be the maximum power produced by the engine without any accessories -- AC condensor, fans, etc. The net power (or flywheel power) should be the power at the flywheel.

To the best of my limited knowledge, there is no standard for rating power after the pumps.

YellowDogSVC
02-29-2008, 08:07 AM
Gross power should be the maximum power produced by the engine without any accessories -- AC condensor, fans, etc. The net power (or flywheel power) should be the power at the flywheel.

To the best of my limited knowledge, there is no standard for rating power after the pumps.

How can this be if a machine is rated at gross X power and net Y power and the machine has AC as an option? I was always told that the AC robbed about 5 hp (at least on Bobcat) after the net power.

Digdeep
02-29-2008, 09:38 AM
How can this be if a machine is rated at gross X power and net Y power and the machine has AC as an option? I was always told that the AC robbed about 5 hp (at least on Bobcat) after the net power.

YellowDogSVC-I think you are correct. It is my understanding that parasitic loss is determined off of net hp since that is the usable hp left over for the machine to operate. An A/C compressor will usually consume about 5hp. This "available hp" is also impacted in its ability to deliver hyd. hp to the attachments by whether the machine has a gear pump or a piston pump (piston pumps are more efficient), the pump is direct driven (best) or belt driven (not the best), the machine has tracks (takes more hp to overcome tractive effort) or wheels, is veritcal lift path (usually takes more hyd. hp and flow due to longer cylinders) or vertical, etc.

ksss
02-29-2008, 02:43 PM
i am going to stir the pot here....but you guys ever asked your salesman where and how you lose 7 hp between gross and net numbers? parasitic loss of power in a small engine platform is an actual factor...especially on fuel consumption...i not picking on case only, bobcat, nh, and others have there problems too....i would think over time those loses would get worse.


It does not appear that there is a lot of difference in OEMs in power loss. I think 5-7 is about average. Have you ever saw the difference in pickups from advertised hp and torque ratings to what they actually put out. I was surprised. You see Iron the CASE machines are soo tight and well built it takes a couple extra hp to get things moving.:laugh:

iron peddler
02-29-2008, 05:04 PM
ok like i said before it must not be that important...i have sold for two different companies and it seemed to be a point for them, i was just curious what you guys thought.

RockSet N' Grade
02-29-2008, 06:36 PM
Drawdown from gross to net hp has always been just a curiosity to me....unless it is way out of line. I am more interested in longevity, performance, operating cost over lifetime, resale value, creature comforts and dealer support.

YellowDogSVC
02-29-2008, 08:55 PM
ok like i said before it must not be that important...i have sold for two different companies and it seemed to be a point for them, i was just curious what you guys thought.

I just wish we would get the whole truth, nothing but the truth, and if they can't do that with the machine they have, build one they can tell the truth about if they want to keep impressing me. I am now very skeptical about ratings thanks to this site!

RockSet N' Grade
02-29-2008, 11:42 PM
YellowDog, I agree with you on published specs. I was talking, and this is heresay now, with a sales rep and he told me that several machines have a "power position" that they can set their buckets at which increases breakout force specs but cannot be used in the real world.....If this is true, which makes sense to me and will take some further research unless Tigerator or someone knows the skinny on this, it is all about slanting the statistics.

NHMan
03-01-2008, 02:57 AM
YellowDog, I agree with you on published specs. I was talking, and this is heresay now, with a sales rep and he told me that several machines have a "power position" that they can set their buckets at which increases breakout force specs but cannot be used in the real world.....If this is true, which makes sense to me and will take some further research unless Tigerator or someone knows the skinny on this, it is all about slanting the statistics.

This "power postition" as you say does not exist. You speak of it like its a flip of a switch.. Break-out force is relatated to hydrualic psi...unless you can turn a pump to increase psi..you won't net any gains. Everything is a trade off..if you "could" flip this switch (not high flow) it would greatly affect every aspect of your HYDROSTATIC machine...I would love to know your sales guy that says several machines have a "power postition switch" and what machines.
Cheers-

NHMan
03-01-2008, 03:09 AM
Answer me this..is Horspower more important OR is the torque rating more important?

.....does this mean an engine with more horepower with less displacement is more reliable/productive than an engine with more displacement? hmmmmm

example: 150 cu. in. engine with 100hp. (turbo charged)
VS
example: 200 cu. in. engine with 75hp. (naturally aspirated)

What would you choose?

Scag48
03-01-2008, 03:18 AM
The power position DOES exist. Engines do not put out peak torque at peak throttle, every operator knows this. Torque is pushing those pumps, there is a point where the torque and horsepower curves are highest and you can bet yourself a good coin that the manufacturers know exactly where that is to test for their numbers. Same reason if I want peak torque out of my machine, blowing through the accelerator isn't going to get me there. There is a percentage of 100% throttle where everything harmonizes and produces the most efficiency, ever looked at a torque rise chart?

NHMan
03-01-2008, 03:35 AM
Absolutely, the usual peak performance is when the torque/horsepower cross.The gerneral rule of thumb is 2/3 throttle.

I guess the question is what is a "power position". In the above post it seemed (to me) the poster was refering to a selective power switch. I can also see how this can be interperated as throttle positioning.
Maybe I misread the post..I don't know...

Yes, I know how to read a torque rise graph.

Scag48
03-01-2008, 03:47 AM
I don't think he meant it was so much a switch, but there is that point and they know where it is. When those motors are hooked up to laptop, you can dial that position instantly. I think that's what RSG was referring to. The likelihood of those numbers not being attainable in the real world is slim, I don't think they're pulling anyone's chain. The only difference is that they're dialing the tolerances and holding that position indefinately and on a much smaller input percentage, allowing the absolute best possible results. You blow back and forth past that power point when cycling the throttle, trying to get it as accurate as you can with a computer plugged into it and holding the values, slim to none, but they aren't made up values.

NHMan
03-01-2008, 03:51 AM
..... :cool:...

YellowDogSVC
03-01-2008, 09:56 AM
Answer me this..is Horspower more important OR is the torque rating more important?

.....does this mean an engine with more horepower with less displacement is more reliable/productive than an engine with more displacement? hmmmmm

example: 150 cu. in. engine with 100hp. (turbo charged)
VS
example: 200 cu. in. engine with 75hp. (naturally aspirated)

What would you choose?

What aboutr a 200 cu in engine with 90 hp? vs. 202 cu inch vs. 81 hp both turbo? Seems when weight is equal, I would take the machine with better hp.

AWJ Services
03-01-2008, 11:10 AM
Remember engines only make Torque.
So ultimately that is all that matters.
Hp is a derivative of torque.

Torque is an actual result of engine size and hp is a result of engine rpm.
You can take an engine half the size of another and still generate the same HP yet the torque will never be the same.The larger engine will always generate broader power band and be much easier too maintain loaded rpm.
If the engine was just intended for steady state use like a generator this does not come into play.A skid however has too operate over a wide rpm range regardless of the throttle position due too varied loads that often exceed the output of the engine.Take 2 engines with peak hp the same but they are at different rpms with the smaller engine having the same hp but 500 rpms higher and also 50 ci smaller.Pull those engines down too 1200 rpm and the engine that is 50ci larger will always have more torque there due the added ci which will result in a faster recovery rate.
However there is a trade off for a large engine which is the loss of Volumetric efficiency and generally higher BSFC.
Thats why you see engines getting smaller.They are much easier too make meet new emission requirements as well as being more fuel efficient.

Tigerotor77W
03-01-2008, 11:26 AM
YellowDog, I agree with you on published specs. I was talking, and this is heresay now, with a sales rep and he told me that several machines have a "power position" that they can set their buckets at which increases breakout force specs but cannot be used in the real world.....If this is true, which makes sense to me and will take some further research unless Tigerator or someone knows the skinny on this, it is all about slanting the statistics.

I think that this "power position" refers to a geometic position of the bucket where maximum breakout force is obtained. Arguably, yes, there is this point; there should also be a corresponding point where the bucket rotational speed is highest. Where it is [is] the question, and will depend solely on each manufacturer's boom geometry.

As far as engine torque and power ratings go, I would need to do some more research. "Rated" flywheel power should be measured with all the accessories installed; this would imply that a machine with AC should (but may not need to) have its AC system installed on the machine and the engine rated at the flywheel with that system installed. However, suppose a manufacturer doesn't cite AC as standard (but most people get it anyhow). The manufacturer could, theoretically, get away with saying that the "flywheel power" of the machine is x HP, even though the AC system draws out another 5. Therefore, Bobcat's rated "81 HP S300" may have gone down to 77 this year because they thought that, realistically, a lot more contractors are ordering AC and therefore won't get the full 81 HP (unless the AC is off).

YellowDogSVC
03-01-2008, 11:38 AM
more contractors are ordering AC and therefore won't get the full 81 HP (unless the AC is off).

I thought something like that. Would be curious to see what the net hp on the s250 would be. I'm guessing it has dropped down to the high 60's or around 70 hp.

The S300 WAS rated at 81 gross/net in the books and online. I had questioned Bobcat on this and got the reply "more fuel = more hp". Back then, I thought they got the jump from 75 hp (s220's s250's) by painting the engine a different color. :)

I think the xtra weight of the s300's (I ran 3 of them. 1 g series, 2 k series), in retrospect, negated any hp gains I might have had by running the 81 hp version of the v3300 dit motor vs. the 75 hp version that I ran in an s220 and s250. I used to think that standing still I had a bit more power to turn my hydro pump but lately I think it was all in my head and real world didn't show that much difference. Comparing the 81 hp 202 cu in. s300's power to the CAT 272c's 201 cu in. 90 hp motor, I felt quite a bit of difference and thought the cat was stronger though the torque was only 6 ft. lbs. greater.

AWJ Services
03-01-2008, 11:47 AM
There are SAE standards for hp measurment.

Generally Gross is a bare engine and Net is with all accesories operating during dyno testing.
The theory is net hp is what you will see real world.

ksss
03-01-2008, 01:00 PM
Absolutely, the usual peak performance is when the torque/horsepower cross.The gerneral rule of thumb is 2/3 throttle.

I guess the question is what is a "power position". In the above post it seemed (to me) the poster was refering to a selective power switch. I can also see how this can be interperated as throttle positioning.
Maybe I misread the post..I don't know...

Yes, I know how to read a torque rise graph.


I spoke with RockSet about this and I think this is what he is refering to. My TK has a very high breakout force number. The bucket has two positions to pin to. One of those positions maximizes breakout the other increases curl to aid in straight wall digging. I guess that is what he is refering to. Basically saying that the breakout forces are high because the OEM uses a bucket position which favors a higher breakout. I don't know if this is true or not I guess only TK or Kubota or IHI would know all of these companies have breakout forces much higher than the others do. I think this more about mechanical advantage than fluid advantage.

ksss
03-01-2008, 01:17 PM
I thought something like that. Would be curious to see what the net hp on the s250 would be. I'm guessing it has dropped down to the high 60's or around 70 hp.

The S300 WAS rated at 81 gross/net in the books and online. I had questioned Bobcat on this and got the reply "more fuel = more hp". Back then, I thought they got the jump from 75 hp (s220's s250's) by painting the engine a different color. :)

I think the xtra weight of the s300's (I ran 3 of them. 1 g series, 2 k series), in retrospect, negated any hp gains I might have had by running the 81 hp version of the v3300 dit motor vs. the 75 hp version that I ran in an s220 and s250. I used to think that standing still I had a bit more power to turn my hydro pump but lately I think it was all in my head and real world didn't show that much difference. Comparing the 81 hp 202 cu in. s300's power to the CAT 272c's 201 cu in. 90 hp motor, I felt quite a bit of difference and thought the cat was stronger though the torque was only 6 ft. lbs. greater.


I thought that the Bobcat had a higher torque rating than CAT. CATs torque rating is only 217 for the 272C or am I wrong. Thought that the Bobcat rating was 230 something.

Tigerotor77W
03-01-2008, 01:25 PM
There are SAE standards for hp measurment....
The theory is net hp is what you will see real world.

The question is... what do *operators see* in the real world? Because I bet you can find a machine with less horsepower that "feels" stronger than a machine with more power. (Ultimately, how accurate is the "theory" to the "real world?")

Generally Gross is a bare engine and Net is with all accesories operating during dyno testing.


Right, which is what I'm saying.

AWJ Services
03-01-2008, 01:45 PM
The question is... what do *operators see* in the real world? Because I bet you can find a machine with less horsepower that "feels" stronger than a machine with more power. (Ultimately, how accurate is the "theory" to the "real world?")

Hp=rpm x torque divided by 5252 which is why hp and torque are always equal at 5252 rpms.


so 200ft/lbs at 1000rpms=38 hp
200ft/lbs at 2000rpms=76 hp
200ft/lbs at 3000rpms=114hp

or 85 hp at 3000 rpms =148 ft/lbs of torque
85 hp at 2500 rpms =178 ft/lbs of torque
85 hp at 4000 rpms = 111 ft/lbs of torque.

So generally with Diesels the higher the actual torque rating the better.

So would you rather have 200 ft/lbs (38 hp) at 1000 rpms or 85 hp(111 ft/ibs) at 4000 rpms.


Right, which is what I'm saying.

It was meant too reiterate what you said.Sorry I should have quoted it .:)

ksss
03-01-2008, 01:46 PM
[QUOTE=Tigerotor77W;2183331]The question is... what do *operators see* in the real world? Because I bet you can find a machine with less horsepower that "feels" stronger than a machine with more power. (Ultimately, how accurate is the "theory" to the "real world?")

That is why I believe that the torque rating as well certain other related traits are more important than are hp ratings. The rate of rise, the rpm at which rated torque is achieved, and for me one of the biggest issues is the engines ability to recover after being lugged down. I personally like an engine that can be lugged down with a very controlled feel to it. Sometimes
you get in a machine with no lugging ability or slow recovery, they are worthless for any type of production dirt moving, excavating tasks. The new Iveco motors that CASE is using are better in the lugging ability area than are the CASE/Cummins motors 3.9 of old. Hard to believe but I think it is true. These new motors lug much better and are easy to hold just above stall for max. lugging ability. They are also fast to recover although the 3.9 was fine for that in the bigger machines. Judging by my experience as an operator not as an engineer, higher cu with a higher torque rating, that is in a useable rpm range, is the key. Lower cu with lower torque but high hp rating are not favorable to having good lugging characteristics, which are key in excavating type tasks.

AWJ Services
03-01-2008, 01:57 PM
Judging by my experience as an operator not as an engineer, higher cu with a higher torque rating, that is in a useable rpm range, is the key. Lower cu with lower torque but high hp rating are not favorable to having good lugging characteristics, which are key in excavating type tasks.

That is an excellent real world explanation.

My TL 140 has an Izuzu engine that makes 81 hp out of 186 CI at 2500 rpm with peak torque of 193 at 1800 rpm.

The Tl 130 makes 67 hp out of 202 CI at 2450 rpm with peak torque of 181 at 1600rpm.

The wider the spread between peak torque and peak hp the more usable the power will be.

My TL140 has a point of no return where if you drop past that certain point it will not recover.It does not lug as well as the Tl130/150 which have much larger engines ci wise.

BIGBEN2004
03-01-2008, 02:00 PM
Yea but the TL130 has no turbo and you can feel it quick where it doesn't have as much grunt power as the TL140 and TL150.

ksss
03-01-2008, 02:15 PM
Yea but the TL130 has no turbo and you can feel it quick where it doesn't have as much grunt power as the TL140 and TL150.

That is where the rate of torque rise comes into play. Although I have not taken the time to look at the torque graph for that engine, it likely peaks nice initially due to perhaps having a bigger displacement, but falls off quickly due to not having a turbocharger. The 140 and 150 with their turbos will usually have a much quicker recovery time and a more consistant delievery of power. I owned an 85XT that behaved much like you describe the 130. It was fine until you really pushed it. The recovery was slow, it had no turbo but big displacment. On paper it was like 10 hp shy of a 95XT but it performed poorly compared to the 95XT. They tried working the injection pump but to no avail. I was not a happy camper. CASE got me out of it and into a 95XT for a song. The series 3 machines are all turboed like they should have been. Having some turboed and some not never made any sense to me. Finally they have seen the light.

YellowDogSVC
03-01-2008, 03:02 PM
2007 s300k with all options (AC etc) makes SAE net 211.7 lbf=ft @1400 rpm. Now that seems kinda low for the RPM??
It makes 77.7 hp @2400 rpm. SAE net.
202.5 cu in motor

AWJ Services
03-01-2008, 03:07 PM
Yea but the TL130 has no turbo and you can feel it quick where it doesn't have as much grunt power as the TL140 and TL150.

Digging conditiond down here are pretty tough.
My TL 140 is constantly near stalling while digging.
It suffers seriously for low end torque.It does fine in the upper rpms but due too the smaller engine size and High peak torque it can be tough too learn how too run it.
Of course this time of year it is not a problem due too the soft soil.

The TL 150 is 97hp at 2200 rpm with 291 ft/lbs torque at 1400 rpm and 269 ci.

These 2 machines are with 1500 pounds of each other.

These 2 engines are night and day difference.I can gurantee you that 15 hp is a huge difference.It makes 100 ft/lbs more torque 400 rpm lower.
So hp can be misleading.

YellowDogSVC
03-01-2008, 03:15 PM
[QUOTE=Tigerotor77W;2183331]Sometimes
you get in a machine with no lugging ability or slow recovery, they are worthless for any type of production dirt moving, excavating tasks. Judging by my experience as an operator not as an engineer, higher cu with a higher torque rating, that is in a useable rpm range, is the key. Lower cu with lower torque but high hp rating are not favorable to having good lugging characteristics, which are key in excavating type tasks.

I feel the Bobcat s300 at about 8300 lbs with accessories has an underpowered motor. From my experiences, it has virtually none of your described lugging ability and really does bog down when stressed from keeping the high flow up or moving heavy dirt.

The only other machine I have enough data to consider is the CAT 272c which seems to have better recovery but the weak torque numbers and small cu in makes me wonder if it is just a peppy version of the 81 hp 202 cu in motor I use now.

I looked at moving up to a 230 cu in motor in the S330 but you have to add about 1000lbs. right off the bat to machine weight. That's a tradeoff in my opinion and how much gain will be going to moving that extra weight?

ksss
03-01-2008, 03:15 PM
2007 s300k with all options (AC etc) makes SAE net 211.7 lbf=ft @1400 rpm. Now that seems kinda low for the RPM??
It makes 77.7 hp @2400 rpm. SAE net.
202.5 cu in motor


I thought they put out more than that. I found the same specs though after looking. The 465 current makes 263 lbf @ 1400 and 82 net hp at 2300 rpm. The series 3 is 288 but at what rpm I don't know and a net of 85 I think, gross is 90.

YellowDogSVC
03-01-2008, 03:20 PM
I thought they put out more than that. I found the same specs though after looking. The 465 current makes 263 lbf @ 1400 and 82 net hp at 2300 rpm. The series 3 is 288 but at what rpm I don't know and a net of 85 I think, gross is 90.

So in your opinion is the CAT 272c that I have been asking about 90 hp net and 217 lbs of torque and 8300 lbs going to be a dog like my s300K?

AWJ Services
03-01-2008, 03:34 PM
It will often times boil down too the hyd system.
Takeuchi excavators do more with less hp than anyone in there class mainly because of pump efficiency.

ksss
03-01-2008, 03:42 PM
So in your opinion is the CAT 272c that I have been asking about 90 hp net and 217 lbs of torque and 8300 lbs going to be a dog like my s300K?

I don't know for certain because I have not run them, but looking at the specs it appears that you could likely expect a similiar performing engine. The specs on these two are surprisingly similiar. Unknown is the torque rise and other issues that might make it perform better than the Bobcat. I would think that they likely will have much in common.

I will get a 256 shortly to demo and I am looking forward to seeing how it performs. We will be working about 5000 feet moving a lot of material so it will be a good test. It does not make as much power as the 272 I don't think, so it may not be an apple to apples comparison.

My 465 which has the lower torque rating of 263 moves 9K pounds well. The added weight is very helpful when grading and excavating. So the added weight may not be a bad thing, although in your application the more weight probably is not as benificial to you as it is to me.

ksss
03-01-2008, 03:59 PM
It will often times boil down too the hyd system.
Takeuchi excavators do more with less hp than anyone in there class mainly because of pump efficiency.

There certianly is truth to that, however even if the CAT is 10% more effecient at putting its power to the ground (or into an attachment), which would be a lot I would think, is that 10% a big enough performance jump enough to justify trading the BC for a CAT? That point would be based soley on engine and hyd performance and as we know Yellowdog's issues include cab comfort as well which the CAT will win hands down I am sure. So it would likely come down to which performance criteria the purchaser would put the most importance into. Even if they performed the same I think the CAT would be favored simply because it is likely to be more comfortable in his landclearing operation.

YellowDogSVC
03-01-2008, 04:05 PM
I don't know for certain because I have not run them, but looking at the specs it appears that you could likely expect a similiar performing engine. The specs on these two are surprisingly similiar. Unknown is the torque rise and other issues that might make it perform better than the Bobcat. I would think that they likely will have much in common.

I will get a 256 shortly to demo and I am looking forward to seeing how it performs. We will be working about 5000 feet moving a lot of material so it will be a good test. It does not make as much power as the 272 I don't think, so it may not be an apple to apples comparison.

My 465 which has the lower torque rating of 263 moves 9K pounds well. The added weight is very helpful when grading and excavating. So the added weight may not be a bad thing, although in your application the more weight probably is not as benificial to you as it is to me.

i ran the 256 more than I had seat time in the 272 and liked it. CAT told me the big difference is the air to air aftercooler on the 272 that bumps up the hp

YellowDogSVC
03-01-2008, 04:08 PM
There certianly is truth to that, however even if the CAT is 10% more effecient at putting its power to the ground (or into an attachment), which would be a lot I would think, is that 10% a big enough performance jump enough to justify trading the BC for a CAT? That point would be based soley on engine and hyd performance and as we know Yellowdog's issues include cab comfort as well which the CAT will win hands down I am sure. So it would likely come down to which performance criteria the purchaser would put the most importance into. Even if they performed the same I think the CAT would be favored simply because it is likely to be more comfortable in his landclearing operation.


I think performance right now is the big issue and running a close second is comfort. My back, arms, and legs are feeling the tension in the bobcat cab. Seat doesn't absorb well though it's a mechanical seat and row sticks are hard to push these days.
I was hoping CASE would release more info about the series 3 cabs and some specs.
I should have made a decision already but have been investigating the CAT fires I have seen and some of the performance numbers just don't add up. Maybe the CAT system is more efficient. They tell me it is world's better than Bobcat's hydraulic system and much more efficient routing of fluid to the attachment to boot.

ksss
03-01-2008, 04:29 PM
The Series 3 will officially be released at Conexpo. They are available to order but their "debut" is ConExpo. They will start advertising, and posting the specs during and after ConExpo. You mentioned you had a CASE dealer near by. You might stop in and explain what your looking for. They are likely ordering series 3 machines now, I know they are here. If they knew what you were looking for they could build one to your specs and bring it in for you to demo. I think given the cab specs (pressurized, air seat and heated if you want it I know I do) and what appears to be excellent torque and hp specs it might match up well with what you are looking for. Certainly worth a demo at least. I would also like to hear what you think of it.

YellowDogSVC
03-01-2008, 04:42 PM
The Series 3 will officially be released at Conexpo. They are available to order but their "debut" is ConExpo. They will start advertising, and posting the specs during and after ConExpo. You mentioned you had a CASE dealer near by. You might stop in and explain what your looking for. They are likely ordering series 3 machines now, I know they are here. If they knew what you were looking for they could build one to your specs and bring it in for you to demo. I think given the cab specs (pressurized, air seat and heated if you want it I know I do) and what appears to be excellent torque and hp specs it might match up well with what you are looking for. Certainly worth a demo at least. I would also like to hear what you think of it.

I heat my cabs with my own seat if you know what i mean. :) Seriously, CASE had an extreme pressure machine a few years ago that had around 5k psi and was supposed to grind well. Don't know much more about it. I have never really considered CASE until you mentioned it a couple of months ago. I drive by the dealer often (on the way to bobcat). Maybe i should stop in before deciding on the CAT.

I'd like an opinion: The bobcat s330 has 85 net hp and a 230 cu. in motor. don't know about torque. Bobcat has gear pumps in all the machines from what I have heard and it's the general consensus that the gear pump is less efficient than a piston pump (for auxillary hydraulics eg. CAT machine). What do you think of the bigger motor with more torque turning the Bobcat 37 gpm pump? Do you think it would be a noticeable upgrade over the 81 hp S300 running the same pump?

ksss
03-01-2008, 06:05 PM
I think it is bound to help. If you believe what the BC propaganda machine says the 330 was built to run high performance attachments more effectively. It would likely be an improvement, more displacement along with more torque, certainly couldn't hurt. The cab issues are likely still going to be there.

ksss
03-01-2008, 06:14 PM
The 5000 psi system is still available. The company that offers that is across the street from the CASE factory. It is not listed as a spec any longer but is still available. I never ran one of those machines but spoke with those that have and with that much power and PSI at 40 gpm it would run large planers with ease. Not a high volume sale item, so they took it off the brochure but you can get it if you want it so I was told. That is a lot of pressure in a skid steer.

YellowDogSVC
03-01-2008, 08:10 PM
I think it is bound to help. If you believe what the BC propaganda machine says the 330 was built to run high performance attachments more effectively. It would likely be an improvement, more displacement along with more torque, certainly couldn't hurt. The cab issues are likely still going to be there.

just got in from a couple of hours of grinding. I sealed the cab the best it will get, still get out grungy! I just don't know how a small upgrade in power can offset the 10% gain in overall weight before attachment.

YellowDogSVC
03-01-2008, 08:11 PM
That is a lot of pressure in a skid steer.

The BC guys said that it was a bomb waiting to go off.

Tigerotor77W
03-01-2008, 08:30 PM
I really like this thread, by the way... a lot of interesting numbers. By the way, AWJ -- the 5252 number is probably correct (it's a units conversion, nothing else, which is why it's always 5252), but this also assumes that all of the useable torque in an engine goes straight to power.

[Power is the measure of a machine's ability to do a certain amount of work in a certain unit of time. However, since torque is a "spinning force," it can provide work -- much as turning a screwdriver can make a screw go "in."]

What I'm saying is that when we look at the torque produced by an engine, it doesn't necessarily mean that 100% of that torque goes straight to "useable" power. Pumps (and motors and everything, really) have losses and so on, so a Bobcat's 81 net HP might not be equivalent to Takeuchi's 81 net HP. (This isn't targeted specifically at you, AWJ -- just a point to be made in general.)

The series 3 is 288 but at what rpm I don't know and a net of 85 I think, gross is 90.

The 465 Series 3 makes 288 lbf-ft of torque at 1300 RPM, according to preliminary spec sheets.

AWJ Services
03-01-2008, 08:46 PM
I agree Tigerotor.

Tigerotor77W
03-01-2008, 08:53 PM
Haha, which is something you already brought up... *smacks self*

Oh well. I enjoy repeating things, too. :D

Digdeep
03-02-2008, 03:29 PM
I thought that the Bobcat had a higher torque rating than CAT. CATs torque rating is only 217 for the 272C or am I wrong. Thought that the Bobcat rating was 230 something.

Bobcat T320- 232 ft lbs CAT 297C (272C)- 217ft lbs.

Tigerotor77W
03-02-2008, 03:38 PM
Do you have the speeds at which those, and the rated HP, are measured?

AWJ Services
03-02-2008, 04:50 PM
http://www.kubotaengine.com/products/pdf_en/29_v3800dit_26.pdf


This is a dyno sheet from Kubota and it includes BSFC which is very important as well.It is the true measuring stick of efficiency.
This is the only way too compare engines.You need the complete dyno graph.

YellowDogSVC
03-02-2008, 09:58 PM
http://www.kubotaengine.com/products/pdf_en/29_v3800dit_26.pdf


This is a dyno sheet from Kubota and it includes BSFC which is very important as well.It is the true measuring stick of efficiency.
This is the only way too compare engines.You need the complete dyno graph.

if that thing is rated at 99 hp, I wonder why it is only 85 hp in the s330 and 92 in the t320?

AWJ Services
03-02-2008, 10:13 PM
if that thing is rated at 99 hp, I wonder why it is only 85 hp in the s330 and 92 in the t320?

The Kubota test was done too SAE J1995 test standards.
In a Bobcat they may be rated too a different standard.


http://www.sae.org/certifiedpower/details.htm

Here is some info on different test standards.

The idea is for all test standards too output equal results under the same test standard.

It is like gross and net hp.
Also once they put it in the chassis there may be fitment issues that cause power loss as well.

I have a unique knowledge of this whole power thing due too my previous occupation.
I have spent a far amount of time dynoing performance engines.

YellowDogSVC
03-02-2008, 11:00 PM
AWJ,
That makes a lot of sense. I see that CAT uses the SAE 1349 to get their gross and net hp for their 3044c DIT motor. No questioning the output there if it was done to those standards as the standards call for 3rd party witnessing. They're right. Makes me feel better as a consumer!
:)

Digdeep
03-03-2008, 09:35 AM
Do you have the speeds at which those, and the rated HP, are measured?

Bobcat T320 92hp @ 2400RPM, 232.3 ft lbs @ 1600RPM.

I don't have the CAT numbers because I had my buddy at the local CAT dealer get them for me and he had a helluva time but he's sure those numbers are accurate for the 297C. Maybe you can get the speeds since you work for CAT?

Tigerotor77W
03-03-2008, 10:15 AM
Haha -- I don't work for Cat yet. I'll be with them for the summer (for another internship), but right now, I'm stuck being a student. Grrr...

That's the fun thing about torque and HP, too -- they're not at the same point. At 1600 RPM, the T320 generates about 70 horsepower. What does that tell us about this performance point? (Not a rhetorical question... I'm asking for reals!)

Digdeep
03-03-2008, 10:35 AM
Haha -- I don't work for Cat yet. I'll be with them for the summer (for another internship), but right now, I'm stuck being a student. Grrr...

That's the fun thing about torque and HP, too -- they're not at the same point. At 1600 RPM, the T320 generates about 70 horsepower. What does that tell us about this performance point? (Not a rhetorical question... I'm asking for reals!)

It tells me that the T320 doesn't have enough grunt to run tracks, loader arms, A/C, and a high flow attachment efficiently. Too much parasitic net hp loss to run a high flow attachment such as a brush cutter. Especially since most high flow attachments are run at wide open throttle where I'm sure the T320 torque drops off dramatically from 1600RPM up to 2400RPM.

YellowDogSVC
03-03-2008, 10:52 AM
It tells me that the T320 doesn't have enough grunt to run tracks, loader arms, A/C, and a high flow attachment efficiently. Too much parasitic net hp loss to run a high flow attachment such as a brush cutter. Especially since most high flow attachments are run at wide open throttle where I'm sure the T320 torque drops off dramatically from 1600RPM up to 2400RPM.

This has been my complaint about the S300k. When running a high flow attachment like a brush mower, you lose power constantly if you are moving, raising or lowering the heavy cutter head, AC on full blast, and fighting gravity on slopes. Just did this over the weekend on a slope. Went back to look at it yesterday and it looked awful because I wasn't keeping rotor speed up while negotiating the slope. The flat areas looked good and the stumps were grinded better. The upper areas just looked like it didn't mulch well. That is a sign that engine couldn't keep the pump up to task even though my RPM's didn't look all that bad.

BIGBEN2004
03-03-2008, 11:04 AM
You would think that with high flow you wouldn't have that problem. It makes me wonder how much testing company's do with the machines they design before putting them on the market. You would think the pumps could continue full speed on the attachment even when you are on hills and adjusting the bucket all at the same time.

Digdeep
03-03-2008, 12:06 PM
You would think that with high flow you wouldn't have that problem. It makes me wonder how much testing company's do with the machines they design before putting them on the market. You would think the pumps could continue full speed on the attachment even when you are on hills and adjusting the bucket all at the same time.

Most people don't take into account that a machine only has so much hp and torque to burn and that hp/torque needs to supply the power to run the tires or tracks, run the A/C compressor, run the pump that supplies all the functions for the loader arms and run the pump that runs the attachment. The specs you see on the brochure are bench numbers meaning they are the specs that the supplier provides to Bobcat, Case, JD, etc. These specs don't take any of the "real world" functions or parameters into account and unfortunately most equipment salesmen don't understand the basics, such as how torque figures into the equation of running attachments and how the whole shooting match affects performance. That is why I used to tell my customers that high flow on a small framed skid steer wasn't worth the money. How well do you think a small displacement engine of around 2.2-2.5L could really manage to run a pump under load at around 25-30gpm? Not really well. I thought it was mostly a marketing gimmick to offer high flow on small skids. The Bobcat T190 is an example. Most people won't argue that the machine is already underpowered. How well do you think it will really run an attachment with 25.5gpm?

BIGBEN2004
03-03-2008, 12:56 PM
Most people don't take into account that a machine only has so much hp and torque to burn and that hp/torque needs to supply the power to run the tires or tracks, run the A/C compressor, run the pump that supplies all the functions for the loader arms and run the pump that runs the attachment. The specs you see on the brochure are bench numbers meaning they are the specs that the supplier provides to Bobcat, Case, JD, etc. These specs don't take any of the "real world" functions or parameters into account and unfortunately most equipment salesmen don't understand the basics, such as how torque figures into the equation of running attachments and how the whole shooting match affects performance. That is why I used to tell my customers that high flow on a small framed skid steer wasn't worth the money. How well do you think a small displacement engine of around 2.2-2.5L could really manage to run a pump under load at around 25-30gpm? Not really well. I thought it was mostly a marketing gimmick to offer high flow on small skids. The Bobcat T190 is an example. Most people won't argue that the machine is already underpowered. How well do you think it will really run an attachment with 25.5gpm?
That is a good point. The engines are very small displacement Diesels and only can produce up to a certain amount of power and torque and things are more demanding today so I guess they are reaching their limits.

YellowDogSVC
03-03-2008, 01:07 PM
You would think that with high flow you wouldn't have that problem. It makes me wonder how much testing company's do with the machines they design before putting them on the market. You would think the pumps could continue full speed on the attachment even when you are on hills and adjusting the bucket all at the same time.

wouldn't that be a perfect world!

YellowDogSVC
03-03-2008, 01:09 PM
I wonder how CAT's amics will help the situation. Using creep should help keep those RPM's up, at least in my mind if you have to move the machine or move loader arms.

AWJ Services
03-03-2008, 01:35 PM
J1349 is the most stringent and it also has a friction correction factor as well.

Another key thing too look for is take the range that the mulching head pulls the skid steer down too and also the normal operating rpm unloaded and take those too rpms and average the torque or hp that fall within this range.
The engine with the highest average power will always be a better choice.
Most diesels are designed as a steady state powerplant which means too run in a very narrow rpm range which sometimes results in them not recovering well.
There is also something we deal with in the automotive world which is called acceleration rate.Thats the engines ability too recover at wide open throttle and it is something a normal engine dyno cannot measure.
So it is possible for 2 different engines with identical specs too perform different in the real world.Acceleration rate only comes into play when the rpm is changing .

Construct'O
03-03-2008, 01:46 PM
I wonder how CAT's amics will help the situation. Using creep should help keep those RPM's up, at least in my mind if you have to move the machine or move loader arms.

I would think this would be an advantage too you.

I also think the engine is important,but i think the hydrulic system also need to be macthed up to the engine performence.

Cat is using piston pumps as to a lot of other machines still using gear pumps ,that is why i think you saw better performance from the Cat machine over your Bobcat when you demo.Even tho the machine speced different or lower.

Good luck

ksss
03-03-2008, 02:00 PM
You would think that with high flow you wouldn't have that problem. It makes me wonder how much testing company's do with the machines they design before putting them on the market. You would think the pumps could continue full speed on the attachment even when you are on hills and adjusting the bucket all at the same time.

If you consider the amount of torque required to turn a high flow pump to 40 gpm @ 3-5K psi that is a lot of power. The drive requirements to move a 8-9K machine can be taxing, then start running the loader arms and tilt carrying a 2K attachment. It is a lot going on for any machine. I don't know how effective the AMICS system would be in this situation. I would think that if you operate the machine slowly both drive and loader functions you will accomplish the same thing. Bobcat has had a creep mode for sometime. I never really saw the advantage given an experienced operator. When I am running a Preparator which is low flow attachment, I am moving and raising and lowering the arms and tilt, the spin on the attachment slows down. If I do it more slowely the machine has an easier time keeping up. Most machines have a hydraulic priority (I believe that is OEM specific). The majority of flow will go to the drive, then the loader functions or the aux. hyd. However when you are running everything at once there simply is not enough fluid or hyd. capacity to provide to all functions to run at 100%. I doubt there is a skid steer made that can do all these things at once and not see a reduction in performance in some aspect of its functioning.

Compare it to an excavator, try running the tracks, spin the house and run the boom and stick and bucket all at once. It doesn't happen near like it does if you do one or two of the functions at the same time.

Digdeep
03-03-2008, 02:05 PM
I would think this would be an advantage too you.

I also think the engine is important,but i think the hydrulic system also need to be macthed up to the engine performence.

Cat is using piston pumps as to a lot of other machines still using gear pumps ,that is why i think you saw better performance from the Cat machine over your Bobcat when you demo.Even tho the machine speced different or lower.

Good luck

Based on what I've heard about CATs AMICS system I don't think it would be of any advantage where the operator needs to constantly move the loader or tilt cylinders any significant amount otherwise it would just slow those functions down due to the limited oil being sent to the circuit.

YellowDogSVC
03-03-2008, 02:10 PM
digdeep, what have you heard about the amics? I tried it and thought it was interesting. You can creep along while the auxillary hydraulics are in high flow. I thought it would be an advantage for digging and mowing where you just want to go slow and steady.

ksss
03-03-2008, 02:11 PM
Based on what I've heard about CATs AMICS system I don't think it would be of any advantage where the operator needs to constantly move the loader or tilt cylinders any significant amount otherwise it would just slow those functions down due to the limited oil being sent to the circuit.


We are in agreement way too often lately DigDeep. I am concerned.:dizzy:

Digdeep
03-03-2008, 02:47 PM
digdeep, what have you heard about the amics? I tried it and thought it was interesting. You can creep along while the auxillary hydraulics are in high flow. I thought it would be an advantage for digging and mowing where you just want to go slow and steady.

I think it owuld work well for cold planers and other attachments where you don't really need to move the loader arms much or move that machine faster than a crawl. Mowing might be alright since the loader arms would pretty much stay in the same position.

Digdeep
03-03-2008, 02:49 PM
We are in agreement way too often lately DigDeep. I am concerned.:dizzy:

It's not the end of the world if we agree on some things and agree to disagree on others.:clapping:

bobcat_ron
03-03-2008, 08:15 PM
The Series 3 machines are released for ordering. My salesman has a guy who is interested in buying my 440. He asked what I wanted for mine. I really don't want to sell it but for the right number everything I own is for sale. The Series three machines can now be ordered so I built one the way I want.

The 440 got an increase to 90 hp and the ROC stayed at 2200.

I picked the following options
Hyd. Coupler
Heat/AC with glass door (heavy demo door is an option)
64" wide with 12X16.5 tires
72" hd extended lip bucket
lift cylinder guard
proportional aux. hyd control
aux. front hyd. controls
Interior mirror
Interior trim
noise reduction package
Aspirator
Pilots H pattern
radio
rotating beacon
Ride control
2-speed
Block heater.
Deluxe air seat with with heat in the seat.

I should find out what it will cost tomorrow or the next day.



So this is what this thread is about after all huh?

stuvecorp
03-03-2008, 08:24 PM
Since I am not able to make it to Vegas I was hoping to see pics sooner then later. Thanks for getting us back to the topic BC Ron.:clapping:

bobcat_ron
03-03-2008, 08:32 PM
If it weren't for the tilte, I'd say this is just a pi$$ing match.

iron peddler
03-03-2008, 09:50 PM
i guess i should feel bad for bringing up the parasitic loss question? *trucewhiteflag*

stuvecorp
03-03-2008, 10:01 PM
i guess i should feel bad for bringing up the parasitic loss question? *trucewhiteflag*

Nah, it's funny/interesting how the topic veers and new topics come in, and in the end we all learn something, right?