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INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-06-2008, 07:18 AM
I heard about some new LED product from Kichler so I went to their website for more information.

http://www.landscapelighting.com/portal/whats_new_page/portlet_whats_new/cms/begin?portlet_whats_newresource=%252FOpenCMS%252Fsites%252Flandscape.com%252Fwhats_new%252FLED.html

My first reaction to the page is: Did anyone at Kichler bother to talk for 5 minutes to a professional outdoor lighting contractor before they created these fixtures?

Lets forget about the optics and photometrics for a minute and comment on the fixture designs! Wow... where to begin? This stuff looks really really cheap, poorly designed and rife with issues. It might be popular to the DIY'er crowd and trunk slammers who buy it online and through retailers everywhere, but it sure doesn't look like anything that will appeal to sophisticated professional contractors.

15731AZT: Looks like an uplight glare bomb. An accessory cowl is available but looks limited in its ability to properly shield the light source from view. Clearly for uplighting only as you would not mount that aimed down at anything. Is it composite? No further details or specs available on the site at this time.

15773AZT: Typical louvered brick light. No real issues there.

15780AZT: Glare Bomb Step Light. Too many people think these fixtures are effective I suppose... everytime I see them my iris' snap shut to adjust for the bright translucent lens and I trip going up the steps.

15782WHT: Typical Louvered step light. No real issues there. Certainly better then the one above. Hope they make one with a copper faceplate.

15710BK: Now whose brain child is this thing? I mean really. Seriously? Glare bomb, ugly, function over form, horrible design, no shielding, too small to be taken seriously, looks like a science kit fixture. and all the mounting options appear to be accessories.

If this is the direction that a major manufacturer like Kichler is going to take in terms of providing professionals with LED based fixtures they had better think again.

Then again, they do have a Heron with light streaming out of it's butt.

Mike M
02-06-2008, 07:44 AM
Automated response from Mike M:

I plan on giving my eyes and brain some stress relief today.

Pro-Scapes
02-06-2008, 08:42 AM
I agree about the looks of the fixtures. They would need to be well hidden.

The AZT line is aluminum and the BBR line up is bronzed brass. Im not digging that shroud at all but i am still really interested in the performace of this fixture. The DG lights ones are much more appealing than these as far as form. I have yet to see the DG spots in person tho.

If the color and performance there it will only be a short time before more appealing fixtures are out there. Someone told me the shape of the kichler increases the area and the ability to disapate the heat. Its not rreally any more ugly that your square NS fixtures tho

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-06-2008, 08:53 AM
Billy... if by referring to "your square NS fixtures" you are referring to the NS Guardian, then I would have an argument for you.

1: They are not my fixtures! :laugh: I simply have used them sucessfully in the past as they are a very small, discreet, effective, closed, fixture that offers excellent glare control and can be custom colour coated and mounted effectively high up on architecture out of the field of view. In this application they virtually disappear from view, day and night. They are also much more cost effective then similar competitive lines such as the Hunza DL-Cop and the Lumascape LS201A (since so many here seem obsessed with keeping fixture costs low) It is nice to have a square element to use on architecture... sometimes round just looks out of place.

2: It all comes down to the application. I would not mount any of those new Kichler LED fixtures anywhere a client might look at them or even see them. They look really cheap and "kit quality". Im sure they will appeal to the DIY market that can pick up Kicler product from about a million different online and retail store locations.

NightScenes
02-06-2008, 09:02 AM
James, did you look at these fixtures at the AOLP conference? They had them there. It was interesting that the photometrics is built into the fixture and you really had very little glare from an angle because the LED is counter sunk (I guess).

Pro-Scapes
02-06-2008, 09:38 AM
most the led's i have played with offer far less glare than a halogen unless you stare straight into them.

Im really interested in what kichler has done with these. Can't wait to see one and see where things have progressed over the last 2 years I have been watching. Paul, Did you get a chance to see the output on these ? is there really a 35 and 50w halogen replacement ?

Eden Lights
02-06-2008, 11:08 AM
I heard about some new LED product from Kichler so I went to their website for more information.

http://www.landscapelighting.com/portal/whats_new_page/portlet_whats_new/cms/begin?portlet_whats_newresource=%252FOpenCMS%252Fsites%252Flandscape.com%252Fwhats_new%252FLED.html

My first reaction to the page is: Did anyone at Kichler bother to talk for 5 minutes to a professional outdoor lighting contractor before they created these fixtures?

Lets forget about the optics and photometrics for a minute and comment on the fixture designs! Wow... where to begin? This stuff looks really really cheap, poorly designed and rife with issues. It might be popular to the DIY'er crowd and trunk slammers who buy it online and through retailers everywhere, but it sure doesn't look like anything that will appeal to sophisticated professional contractors.

15731AZT: Looks like an uplight glare bomb. An accessory cowl is available but looks limited in its ability to properly shield the light source from view. Clearly for uplighting only as you would not mount that aimed down at anything. Is it composite? No further details or specs available on the site at this time.

15773AZT: Typical louvered brick light. No real issues there.

15780AZT: Glare Bomb Step Light. Too many people think these fixtures are effective I suppose... everytime I see them my iris' snap shut to adjust for the bright translucent lens and I trip going up the steps.

15782WHT: Typical Louvered step light. No real issues there. Certainly better then the one above. Hope they make one with a copper faceplate.

15710BK: Now whose brain child is this thing? I mean really. Seriously? Glare bomb, ugly, function over form, horrible design, no shielding, too small to be taken seriously, looks like a science kit fixture. and all the mounting options appear to be accessories.

If this is the direction that a major manufacturer like Kichler is going to take in terms of providing professionals with LED based fixtures they had better think again.

Then again, they do have a Heron with light streaming out of it's butt.


James, just a FYI. All your concerns were brought up at the Kichler conference this summer. The 731 is going to be the workhorse and it does have the cowl for glare control, but they think you want always need it, that's why it's a add-on. As far as the looks and design, they said the fixture was designed for the leds and photometrics, instead of stuffing leds in a convential fixture, which we all know doesn't work because of all the photometric problems.

ccfree
02-06-2008, 10:15 PM
James, just a FYI. All your concerns were brought up at the Kichler conference this summer. The 731 is going to be the workhorse and it does have the cowl for glare control, but they think you want always need it, that's why it's a add-on. As far as the looks and design, they said the fixture was designed for the leds and photometrics, instead of stuffing leds in a convential fixture, which we all know doesn't work because of all the photometric problems.

it is actually about the heat dissipation...not photo metrics

Pro-Scapes
02-06-2008, 10:44 PM
it is actually about the heat dissipation...not photo metrics

Thats what I thought as mentioned above. Glad they didnt just shove the led's into an existing light. Seems more engineered than previous products from other manufactures.

Im not nuts about the look but if thats whats working now its a tremendous step.

ccfree
02-06-2008, 11:09 PM
Thats what I thought as mentioned above. Glad they didnt just shove the led's into an existing light. Seems more engineered than previous products from other manufactures.

Im not nuts about the look but if thats whats working now its a tremendous step.

That is exactly it Billy. Even though Led's burn alot cooler than halogen temperature wise, they still need enough ventilation to dissipate the heat. That is why manufacturers spend so much money engineering these products. They don't want them to fail out of the chute.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-06-2008, 11:24 PM
None the less, they could have done a much better job and made these much more attractive, and effective.

ccfree
02-06-2008, 11:33 PM
None the less, they could have done a much better job and made these much more attractive, and effective.

You hit the nail on the head....Agreed!!!!

Lumenpro
02-10-2008, 03:59 PM
Making an efficient LED accent look like a traditional MR16 based fixture does nothing but negatively affect photometrics, add complexity to the assembly, and add unnecessary cost.

These fixtures were engineered around the light source, not the other way around. If you know anything about LED's, you know that you must maintain a junction temperature below the manufacturers specification. If it runs too hot, not only will the LED not last, the lumen output is diminished considerably.

As for the "expert" observation regarding the "glare issue", if the optics are designed properly, you literally have to be within the beam angle of the optical design to see "glare". It's true.

There is a difference between a glare bomb and being able to see where the light is coming from. Kichler's optional cowls are to hide the light source.

As for them not being effective, where have you seen better performers? I mean that you've actually seen not just found surfing the web? Also, what photometric data are you referencing?

Lastly, I was involved with the "5 minutes" that Kichler spent working with Contractors while designing the little underwater LED fixtures they sell (15710) a couple years ago. They were asked to make it as small as possible, be rugged enough to wedge under rocks (hence the shape), be made from materials that will not harm the pumps or aquatic life, and put out a nice warm light.

Sorry for the long first post, just felt like joining in on this one. Lot's of LED "experts" out there............

pete scalia
02-10-2008, 04:12 PM
LED's are all junk forget about them. What good does an LED do when there are several of them mounted in a MR-16 configuration? The LED does not reflect off the mirrored reflector since it's covering it. Duh.

What's the reflector for, it's to reflect and amplify the light. Highly effective with a halogen capsule. Worthless for multiple LED's.

Just forget the whole thing, just another failed experiment by misguided souls.

Mike M
02-10-2008, 04:18 PM
LumenPro,

Thanks for being here! I'm not "pro led" status yet, but please share your knowledge as much as possible.

It might help me while I'm in my garage configuring stuff.

Thanks!

Lumenpro
02-10-2008, 04:19 PM
Good one Pete!

You are so right, lot's of junk and even more mis-information about LED's out there.

It's probably good for some folks to stay away for a while until they feel more comfortable with the technology.

LED's are coming though, whether we like it or not.............

Mike M
02-10-2008, 04:35 PM
I agree with Pete and lumenpro. I think everyone should just forget about LED's, and wait a few years or so when the technology is thoroughly developed and reliable. I will call you out when it's safe.

There are some roads not fit for ordinary humans, especially the ones that are not yet cleared of dangerous obstacles and savages.

LED's are like the "Sirens" in Greek mythology, luring sailors in close to the dangerous shores until they are smashed against the rocks. From this point on, consider all posts on LED's to have skulls marking dangerous boundaries.

pete scalia
02-10-2008, 05:26 PM
LED's are a suckers bet

1- They are expensive
2-They are unproven out of doors
3- They are not bright enough
4- They are not time tested in outdoor conditions including scorching heat and bone chilling cold. Not to mention rain sleet snow and sprinkler spray. Humidity etc.
5-Most are being made in China (Chinese bulbs suck!)
6- They are approved by Al Gore (that should be reason enough to count them out)

Mike M
02-10-2008, 05:37 PM
Pete, that is almost verbatim to the famous quote by the Flexible Flier Sled Company, 1 week before they changed their minds:

SLED's are a suckers bet:

1- They are expensive
2- They are unproven out of doors
3- They don't have steering wheels or brakes
4- They are not time tested in outdoor conditions including scorching heat and humidity.
5- Nobody will want one in Texas.
6- They are approved by Orsen Wells (that should be reason enough to count them out)

pete scalia
02-10-2008, 05:40 PM
Pete, that is almost verbatim to the famous quote by the Flexible Flier Sled Company, 1 week before they changed their minds:

SLED's are a suckers bet:

1- They are expensive
2- They are unproven out of doors
3- They don't have steering wheels or brakes
4- They are not time tested in outdoor conditions including scorching heat and hundity.
5- Nobody will want one in Texas.
6- They are approved by Orsen Wells (that should be reason enough to count them out)

Wait a week and ask me how I'll feel about it then.

Lumenpro
02-10-2008, 05:44 PM
It's OK Pete, really.

Inefficient incandescent and halogen lamps will hang around for a few more years. Unless they get banished like the medium base A-lamp............or until your customers demand them, whichever comes first.

Maybe that'll be time enough to convince you.

To each his own.

Mike M
02-10-2008, 05:46 PM
Okay, in one week maybe you'll join the LED Mavericks. It's a group of only one at the moment. Maybe it will be two members in 7 earth-making days.

pete scalia
02-10-2008, 05:53 PM
It's OK Pete, really.

Inefficient incandescent and halogen lamps will hang around for a few more years. Unless they get banished like the medium base A-lamp............or until your customers demand them, whichever comes first.

Maybe that'll be time enough to convince you.

To each his own.

It's obvious you have a great financial interest in LED's .

The internet was also supposed to be the end of the TV and Movie business.

Satellite radio was purported to do the same to terrestrial radio.

Banished like the A medium base. Far as I know that lamp is still readily used even those crappy flouresant lamps couldn't kill it.

Gas is 3.50 a gallon yet they still sell trucks and suv's for recreational use.

The sky is not falling, yet that is. Now if Hillary or Obama get in then maybe we have reason to be concerned.

If that happens I'm going north of the border and get a job working for James.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-10-2008, 08:44 PM
Now if Hillary or Obama get in then maybe we have reason to be concerned.

If that happens I'm going north of the border and get a job working for James.

Pete; I really will not have any positions available for you come November 2008, but the following spring, say around April 2009, well then I expect to see you up here! And make sure you bring along some digging tools! :laugh:

pete scalia
02-10-2008, 09:06 PM
Pete; I really will not have any positions available for you come November 2008, but the following spring, say around April 2009, well then I expect to see you up here! And make sure you bring along some digging tools! :laugh:

Doubtful you could afford me.:laugh:

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-10-2008, 09:25 PM
Doubtful you could afford me.:laugh:

Oh I am sure I could scrape together $10 or even $15 per hour Pete... and my very well paid installer could sure use a helper! :laugh:

pete scalia
02-10-2008, 09:28 PM
Oh I am sure I could scrape together $10 or even $15 per hour Pete... and my very well paid installer could sure use a helper! :laugh:

You are hilarious. In fact every post you make is a joke.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-10-2008, 09:37 PM
Oh I am sure I could scrape together $10 or even $15 per hour Pete... and my very well paid installer could sure use a helper! :laugh:

Darn Pete, I just checked and you would not work out.... you don't meet the criteria of our migrant worker program here and you would have to become a landed immigrant before you would be eligible to work for me.

Oh well, I could always hire you into my US Corp. Perhaps you would be available to do service and maintenance in Upstate NY and S. Fla?

ChampionLS
02-10-2008, 09:42 PM
Pete... ya comin to the show on Tues... RIGHT??

right.

pete scalia
02-10-2008, 09:47 PM
Pete... ya comin to the show on Tues... RIGHT??

right.

The one in Islandia?

Lumenpro
02-11-2008, 07:59 AM
Sorry if I offended you Pete.

I have no more of a financial stake in LED's than I do incandescent. I personally don't care which you use. Just trying to help dispel some of the mis-information surrounding the technology.

As for the Medium base lamp. There is already legislation in place in many parts of the world to phase out the incandescent lamp period. The main target thought is the A-lamp.

Oh, and you may have to run away to Mexico, because Canada already has them legislated to be phased out by 2012. This is not the use that is being banned, just the sale of them.

It's going to affect our industry much sooner than that though.

It's very early in the development of good LED products for the general lighting industry. Many people will wait to see how the technology performs before giving it a try. Nothing wrong with that.

Take care.

Mike M
02-11-2008, 08:44 AM
It's very early in the development of good LED products for the general lighting industry. Many people will wait to see how the technology performs before giving it a try. Nothing wrong with that.


Toddlers in an Easter egg hunt make the catastrophic mistake of running to the same spot where the bigger kids have found eggs.

Indy 500: time trials. Pole position. Pretty important.

Olympic swimming: not good at jumping in? I won't matter how fast you can swim, you'll lose before getting wet.

irrig8r
02-11-2008, 12:53 PM
Pete, that is almost verbatim to the famous quote by the Flexible Flier Sled Company, 1 week before they changed their minds:

SLED's are a suckers bet:

1- They are expensive
2- They are unproven out of doors
3- They don't have steering wheels or brakes
4- They are not time tested in outdoor conditions including scorching heat and humidity.
5- Nobody will want one in Texas.
6- They are approved by Orsen Wells (that should be reason enough to count them out)

ROSEBUD! :laugh:

Mike M
02-11-2008, 01:03 PM
Thankful someone got that!

irrig8r
02-11-2008, 01:11 PM
LED's are all junk forget about them.....
Just forget the whole thing, just another failed experiment by misguided souls.

GE seems to disagree with you Pete.

And haven't I heard that they are working with both Nightscaping and Unique?


GE Vio (http://www.lumination.com/product.php?id=56)

http://www.lumination.com/images/category/sub_cat_bigVio2.jpg

Applications: Pendant, down-light, task, display, pathway, marker

Customer Segments: Commercial, residential, hospitality, retail, architectural

Mike M
02-11-2008, 01:40 PM
Greg, can't you find a nice LED place to post your research in an thoughtful, organized manner? I just don't want it getting lost in a ubiquitous halogen-driven medium.

Mike M
02-11-2008, 01:48 PM
And haven't I heard that they are working with both Nightscaping and Unique? --Gregg

Good point, Gregg. I bet Unique is prepping for LED's by going into production with the 24v trans.

Joey, you holding out on secrets??

JoeyD
02-11-2008, 02:27 PM
24v TF's have many uses.

Mike M
02-11-2008, 02:32 PM
24v TF's have many uses.

Like what???

JoeyD
02-11-2008, 02:42 PM
Well besides Interior, landscape, and LED........they have a lot of benefits as far as doubling distances and wire ratings. It requires a compeltely seperate thread that i will start in the Unique forum.

Mike M
02-11-2008, 04:57 PM
Well besides Interior, landscape, and LED........they have a lot of benefits as far as doubling distances and wire ratings. It requires a compeltely seperate thread that i will start in the Unique forum.

LOL, Joey!

Too many hours in front of my pc, I'm becoming dyslexic. I thought you said "issues" not "uses." I think you guys rock for going 24v. That takes forward thinking.

clevliteguy
02-13-2008, 04:10 PM
I have seen the new LED's and they have the best foot going forward. I have read all the threads and completely understand the concerns. The fact that they have been able to make a beamspread with LED'S in itself is a giant step forward. They have not jumped in with the same mfgr for LED's as the rest of the lighting world. They have gotten in with a mfgr who is very much involved with LED's in your everyday life. I don't know if they want their source released or not. All I know is that the chip they are using is tried and true. The shrouds are not necessarily mandatory with the beam spreads being offered. I do believe one of the earlier threads nailed it on the head with the shrouds being offered as an option to help keep the actual fixture portion hidden. I personally have been thrilled with what has been offered by Kichler. I have had projects with another mfgrs LED's that were blue in the truest form. I think this is a great option going forward. Yes I do agree it will get better in time.

JoeyD
02-13-2008, 04:20 PM
All I know is that the chip they are using is tried and true.

Are you sure this chip has been tested tried and true in an outdoor landscape environment? Most are tested tried and true for interior and that is where the problems are occuring on the outside. Not being negative just trying to make sure I am clear with what you are saying.

Lumenpro
02-14-2008, 08:37 AM
What specific problems are you referring to?

It's all about the luminaire design. If the LED itself isn't exposed to the environment (maybe that explains why a properly designed product looks different?), what's the difference? Now you basically have in interior environment with some temperature swings. All very manageable.

It's not easy to do for sure.

Sticking LED's on a circuit board and shoving them along with a driver board into an existing luminaire platform is not the way to go. The "integrators" understand the technology, but what do they know about the Landscape Lighting environment?

It is good to be wary.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-14-2008, 08:47 AM
Lumenpro:

Don't be so quick to judge us "integrators" or paint us all with the same brush. There are certain existing fixtures that are appropriate for LED applications and there are new LED lamps coming to market all the time.

I currently have a prototype in development that I specified and I am hoping to have it in my hands by end of month. I also have another manufacturer that has come up with a very interesting new LED lamp module that is on its way here now. Both are cutting edge, making use of massive heat sinks, and also completely sealed.

You go ahead and use those little toy units.... Enjoy the use of their proprietary DC circuits and transformers, Enjoy tossing the whole unit in the trash if you ever have a service issue, enjoy your clients having to look at that product installed at their home,

I choose to blaze another path.

Have a great day.

Lumenpro
02-14-2008, 09:29 AM
Wow, talk about being quick to judge.

You make judgements from small images on websites.

There are only three or four manufcaturers of quality LED's in the world. One just had a major set-back, so don't try to make everyone believe you have secret technology. The major LED companies are showing the latest and greatest to the big manufacturers first (trust me). Just follow the money.

As for integrators, I was referring to the companies that come to the luminaire maufacturers promoting one LED comapanies product and offer turnkey solutions in optical, thermal, and electrical design. Sort of a packaged solution.

If you are able to bring a quality product to the market and can make money at it, I respect that. There's too much junk out there.

But please don't insult everyone else by trying to make them think you are the only LED expert in the industry. It's not true.

So if I've offended you personally in any way, I apologize. Best of luck with your product development.

I'm new here, I guess I should show more respect.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-14-2008, 09:53 AM
Lumenpro: I have seen and handled most of the 'new' LED product being offered by Kichler, Hadco, Vista, etc.. I am not basing my opinions on small images from websites.

There are certainly more then 3 or 4 quality LED manufacturers. Cree, Nichia, Phillips/Lumileds, GE, Osram, Lamina, are just a select few big name manufacturers that are in the biz. Believe it or not, there are literally dozens of top quality manufacturers located in Taiwan, Korea, Japan and China... They actually do produce some excellent quality products outside of the USA.

As for any secret technology, I have none, just a good understanding of the needs and apllications for our industry. As for trying to make anyone think I am the only LED expert, well that is just silly.

Have a great day.

Mike M
02-14-2008, 10:43 PM
lumi, no pm? I can't pm you.

Hey James, Korea is home to that guy that made the first blue led, aren't they? Too bad they don't speak good English.

I need more info on peripheral components for LED's, if anyone has references I'd appreciate it.

Thanks

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-15-2008, 08:22 AM
lumi, no pm? I can't pm you.

Hey James, Korea is home to that guy that made the first blue led, aren't they? Too bad they don't speak good English.

I need more info on peripheral components for LED's, if anyone has references I'd appreciate it.

Thanks

Mike: Not sure about the Korean / blue led connection. I do recall the first white LED was produced years ago by a Japanese (perhaps Korean, not sure) fellow who tried very hard to keep his technology completely private. The first applications of this white LED was for flashlight use.

As for peripheral components, what exactly are you looking for. I have a huge list/resource of component manufactures: drivers, lenses, collimators, housings, emmitters, etc etc.

Have a great day.

Lumenpro
02-15-2008, 08:27 AM
I'm too new to get PM's I guess.

James, the last three names you mention I guess I wouldn't consider really big players. The first two seem more interested in selling ready to go platforms, and the last one doesn't manufacture LEDs at all. They make decent stuff, but it's all cobbled up "systems" made mostly from off-off shore LED's. Not all that excited about RGB technology right now anyway. Again, to each his own.

Take care!

Chris J
02-15-2008, 09:02 AM
Get to 10 posts and you will have PM privies.

ChampionLS
02-15-2008, 10:12 PM
I remember the first Blue LED back in 1988. I was working in the printing industry. An industrial show I attended had one on display. I think I recall Ledtronics being the vendor. It was definitely a WOW. Blue came before white.