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loupiscopolandscaping
02-07-2008, 01:09 PM
ok i never messed with landscape lighting. Im looking to expand into this field. I went on an estimate early today for a landscape design job. The job is small. The client wants me to upgrade her existing lighting system. The system works and all the lights, wires and etc. are installed. The client wants me to remove the 20 existing walkway lights and install a new set. Since everything is fully functional, i want to remove the existing lights and install 20 1 tier malibu walkway lights. The new lights i found for $75.00 and im figuring this should take me no longer than 3 hrs to do. My guess based on time, material and it is "extra" work i should charge her $300.00. Does that sound right???

loupiscopolandscaping
02-07-2008, 01:10 PM
by the way, im going to tape the new lights into the existing wire.

loupiscopolandscaping
02-07-2008, 01:16 PM
Tap into* the exisiting wire

WALKER LANDSCAPE
02-07-2008, 01:34 PM
Hello It all depends on what kind of load the lights take. The bulbs could pull more of a load and not be as bright. Is Malibu the manufactuer of the lights?

loupiscopolandscaping
02-07-2008, 01:38 PM
Yes Malibu is the company of the lights id like to install i have the specs......... each set has 10 1 tier lights so i have to purchase 2 sets.....10 plastic tier lights, 44 watt transformer, 50ft of low voltage 18 guage cable....

Pro-Scapes
02-07-2008, 01:58 PM
Im willing to bet you didnt know you must be licensed in Jersey to lighting. From what I understand inspectors are handing out fines all over the place. Call a reputable lighting contractor and PLEASE let them handle it. Its not worth the couple hundred your talking about making. There will also be a world of difference in materials and workmanship.

Dont give low voltage a bad name or tarnish your name with your client by installing inferior products. Sub it out and ask the contractor about any refferal incentives.

WALKER LANDSCAPE
02-07-2008, 02:00 PM
You should be ok if then Your question is PRICE so (Material X 3). You can make good profit in this feild if you can get into some classes you can learn alot more. There is all kinds of unique ways (Uplighting, shadowing, siloutte, back and down lighting. Good luck.

Pro-Scapes
02-07-2008, 02:07 PM
You should be ok if then Your question is PRICE so (Material X 3). You can make good profit in this feild if you can get into some classes you can learn alot more. There is all kinds of unique ways (Uplighting, shadowing, siloutte, back and down lighting. Good luck.

NO! he should not be "ok" New Jersey requires a license to install landscape lighting. He is clearly not licensed for this. The fine will by far eat his profits several times over.

WALKER LANDSCAPE
02-07-2008, 02:25 PM
You can make good profit in this feild if you can get into some CLASSES [/B]you can learn alot more. There is all kinds of unique ways (Uplighting, shadowing, siloutte, back and down lighting. Good luck.

PRO
He is going to do whatever he wants I just dont say it like some of the guys on here. "YOU NEED TO BE THIS OR lICENSED FOR THAT" I am all for everyone being qualified to do their services. This keeps the rate up.

JoeyD
02-07-2008, 02:31 PM
Listen to Billy here in regards to the NJ licensing thing......

It sounds like you are going to create what we call an "airport runway" with placing that many lights down a walkway. It also sounds like you will have some really big Voltage Drop issues. Consult with a pro before just cutting and splicing in new lights, your homeowner may turn out to be upset with how everything looks.

loupiscopolandscaping
02-07-2008, 02:41 PM
thank you guys.... The job seems easy and shouldnt take long to do. Homeowners install lights and lighting to their homes. i dont see the hard part about it. The client wants these lights just as a trim around the front walk and shrub bed. She also stated 15 + or - lights are ok too. I have a few friends who r electricians, ill ask them for advise. and "sub" it out to them with me on the job. thanks guys

JoeyD
02-07-2008, 02:49 PM
Homeowners install lighting kits that have massive VD issues and dont last longer than 5 years. Pro's charging good money install quality systems with proper amperage and voltage checks ensuring long lasting lamps and and an overall long lasting system. Once you leave the job and the system falls apart the homeowner will never say "yeah we were cheap" they will say "Lou installed junk, I dont reccomend him." You should want to stand behind your work and installing this type of blow and go system will only hurt your reputation.

Lighting isn't rocket science but doing it right requires some knowledge and understanding of basic electrical principals. Getting with your electrician firend is a good idea as long as he understands that a daisy chain wiring layout does not produce a quality lighting system.

loupiscopolandscaping
02-07-2008, 03:10 PM
http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/how-to/intro/0,,451473,00.html this site explains the basics.....

TXNSLighting
02-07-2008, 03:13 PM
Dont you dare use malibu lights!!! and For gosh sakes find a real lighting company to do this. The customer will actualy be happy when your finished. And for the guy encouraging him...you shouldnt be in this thread.

TXNSLighting
02-07-2008, 03:16 PM
http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/how-to/intro/0,,451473,00.html this site explains the basics.....

NO NO NO NO!!!!! THATS NOT HOW TO DO IT!!! JUST STOP!

JoeyD
02-07-2008, 03:16 PM
Lou what they show there is how to install a basic malibu kit, that is no where near a professional install. That kit will hurt your reputation over time. And that is a typical "airport runway" design that to most lighting guys is sub standard design practice. But you got to what you got to do. Just know there are people that can help you get it done correctly. I would be more than happy to explain a proper layout with you over the phone or email. It gets redundent for most of the readers to see me or anyone else explain it agin and again here on lawnsite. No offense I am not trying to be pompus I just want to help you do it RIGHT!

TXNSLighting
02-07-2008, 03:19 PM
and dont put path lights in the grass...please...Ive noticed a large company in the DFW area puts paths in the grass. Looks terrible...

JoeyD
02-07-2008, 03:26 PM
This is not the right way to make a long lasting connection......

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb97/ulsjoeyd/MalibuPP.jpg

loupiscopolandscaping
02-07-2008, 03:37 PM
thanks guys, i know your the professionals in this field so I'm going to listen to you. Im gonna go threw the phone book and find a lighting company and sub it out to them or just tell them to tack on $50.00. thanks again

JoeyD
02-07-2008, 03:41 PM
Your the man Lou!! I know of a few good guys in NJ you could contact...Let me know!

Pro-Scapes
02-07-2008, 03:43 PM
It doesnt matter what we say. Im sure he will do it himself and it will look funky and be unreliable. Unfortunatly some guys will never understand well planned lighting will make their landscape work look all the better and in turn increase their business.

Do what you want but do the industry a favor and dont break the law. You will get turned in or fined Lou trust us on this. Its not worth it if your not into lighting. If you want to do it right then go take a few years and learn.

Trust me on this... You will loose money installing malibu when either their lights dont come on and you have to go fix it or when a prospect sees your cheesy work and you dont get the next job.

loupiscopolandscaping
02-07-2008, 03:44 PM
please let me know, the job involves design work with a small garden wall so i really dont want to pass up making about $1500 in a day or so. The job is in Brick,NJ Ocean county. if you know anyone please let me know. thank you Joe

Pro-Scapes
02-07-2008, 03:49 PM
Your doing the right thing. Pass it up and let someone who knows whats up handle it. Let them know your there to handle gardens and such and you might just be surprised about the network connection. Someone will chime in with some refferals for ya in jersey.

I know its frusterating homeowners can do their own but you cant, but thats the law and you need to abide by it for your own protection. Imagine how bad it would look for your company to have an inspector come by and fine you right there while your working because your not legitimate. how would that make you look to your clients ?

loupiscopolandscaping
02-07-2008, 04:03 PM
yeah im not going to mess with it. Ive heard a lot of stories of friends getting nailed to the cross because they didnt have a pest. ID num and lic.... its not worth the risk, just wish i took classes and got my lighting lic.

OUTLANDER
02-07-2008, 04:04 PM
ok i know you say you're knowledgable of lighting and such,but really get real here,its not that difficult to figure out low voltage,and do's and don't of lighting now come on..........and if licence is the issue in your area,by all means get it and be versitile in your field....DONT SUB NOTHING OUT!!,these guys want other scapers to do this so they have a security blanket

OUTLANDER
02-07-2008, 04:08 PM
lighting like any other construction is common sense,not just leggos......build everything for tomorrow,not today to get paid (make it last ,even if it costs you to make alittle less).......ok enough with the philosphy...lol

JoeyD
02-07-2008, 04:15 PM
Yeah and its not difficult to plant a tree either. Whats difficult is getting the tree to grow and to prosper. Anyone can hack a lighting job in during the day visually see there is illumination, collect a check and leave the nightmare of an installation for someone else to fix. You probably have never installed a 100 light project, you probably dont even own a volt meter and you probably are the guy whose installing the systems these pros are fixing everyday. Dont dumb down landscape lighting. Thsi isnt 1985 and these pros arent installing HD Malibu Kits that my 4 year old can figure out. SUB YOUR WORK OUT IF YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING!!

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-07-2008, 04:28 PM
Hey Outlander.... take a look at a few of our websites....

www.integralighting.com is mine for instance.

Then come back on here and tell me how easy it is to install great lighting.

You Sir, do not have a clue of what you are talking about.

loupiscopolandscaping
02-07-2008, 04:34 PM
i see i caused a problem on here. sorry guys

loupiscopolandscaping
02-07-2008, 04:37 PM
btw integra, i thought using walkway lights installed on turf was a No No.... your outdoor pic on your page has one installed. im not busting your balls just curious. Also the page looks GREAT!

irrigator
02-07-2008, 05:03 PM
Lou,
I would never install Malibu lights in a professional lighting job. i have found these to be more of a do it yourself brand..id stay away from Home Depot brands if you are serious about being in the lighting bussiness. and 15-20 fixtures in a residence alot unless this is a big lot with lots of landscaping..id stick to the professional brands and leave these alone.

loupiscopolandscaping
02-07-2008, 05:25 PM
that you irrigator! for your help!

loupiscopolandscaping
02-07-2008, 05:27 PM
by the way what r some good lighting brands?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-07-2008, 05:32 PM
CAST, Nightscaping, Unique, Vista, Hunza, Vision3, Kicler, Hadco.... the list goes on and on.

Check out the thread called Manufacturers Compendium.

Regards.

irrigator
02-07-2008, 05:34 PM
the ones i prefer are Hadco, Unique, Vista, Kichler these are backed in the field with local support, have informative web sites and will last you longer than any Malibu will. also id look at your fixture count on a residence because too much lighting is not a good thing either.

loupiscopolandscaping
02-07-2008, 05:40 PM
i know, im going to have my friend whos an electrician do the work. im just going to supply the product and material.

loupiscopolandscaping
02-07-2008, 05:41 PM
also the client is an elderly lady she has a low budget so i kinda have to do my best, without being cheap

loupiscopolandscaping
02-07-2008, 05:49 PM
JESUS! theyre 150-200 a damn light! i know the client doesnt have that money! oh boy.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-07-2008, 05:52 PM
For good mid-level fixtures and components I would look to Vista, Kichler and Hadco.

Vista's composite lines might suit your client's budget....

You get what you pay for.

loupiscopolandscaping
02-07-2008, 05:58 PM
this is true integra, im looking at the kichler 15310 light in bronze. looks nice, but flinzey. 45 a light im going to recommend this and check out the vista composite line.

irrigator
02-07-2008, 06:07 PM
they all have a composite line of fixtures that is more price sensative but if you can tak it from 20 fixtures to 10 there is a big price difference there also most come with at least a 5 year warranty which would be abour 5 sets of Malibu its your call but if my bussiness was invlved i know which one id choose

loupiscopolandscaping
02-07-2008, 06:22 PM
yeah i contacted my electrician and we agreed to knock it down to 10 lights. Im going to contact the clients and say ok...... 10 malibu junk lights for $300 or 10 kichler long lasting lights for $800. the malibu's an expense of $35 total dollars and the kichler is an expense of $450.

JoeyD
02-07-2008, 07:08 PM
we have a good middle of the road copper line. It will last forever.

Pro-Scapes
02-07-2008, 07:36 PM
yeah i contacted my electrician and we agreed to knock it down to 10 lights. Im going to contact the clients and say ok...... 10 malibu junk lights for $300 or 10 kichler long lasting lights for $800. the malibu's an expense of $35 total dollars and the kichler is an expense of $450.

unreal... look at the sticky at the top of the forum. I cant imagine any of you guys stay in business with the unproffesionalism. Im not flaming any of you directly. Its just really sad you guys toss around your makeshift profits and pricing for the world to see.

WALKER LANDSCAPE
02-07-2008, 08:03 PM
Dont you dare use malibu lights!!! and For gosh sakes find a real lighting company to do this. The customer will actualy be happy when your finished. And for the guy encouraging him...you shouldnt be in this thread.

I am not encouraging anyone "SIR" Like I said before "He is going to do whatever he wants and no matter what he tells you is actually going to do". Plus thanks for letting me know were I need to be. Would you like me to tell you were you need to be. :waving:

TXNSLighting
02-07-2008, 08:23 PM
sure! id love to find out! And yes you were encouraging him. have you ever installed lights?

TXNSLighting
02-07-2008, 08:28 PM
unreal... look at the sticky at the top of the forum. I cant imagine any of you guys stay in business with the unproffesionalism. Im not flaming any of you directly. Its just really sad you guys toss around your makeshift profits and pricing for the world to see.

He wont be doing this stuff long at those prices. so dont worry bout it. All the new people need to charge accordingly, and dont tell costs on this site!!! Your killing this industry.

Pro-Scapes
02-07-2008, 08:52 PM
He wont be doing this stuff long at those prices. so dont worry bout it. All the new people need to charge accordingly, and dont tell costs on this site!!! Your killing this industry.

All he is adding up is fixtures anyways. No splicing supplies.. transformers... lamps... installation consumables like grease.

S&MLL
02-07-2008, 09:46 PM
I guess I should start advertising in South Jersey some more. If you are doing a job in or around Brick NJ you might want to look into composite fixtures. That salty air down there will do a number on metal fixtures. Btw in Jersey make sure your transformer is plugged into a outdoor bubble box. And the low volt wire has to be at least 6 inches

TXNSLighting
02-08-2008, 09:32 AM
All he is adding up is fixtures anyways. No splicing supplies.. transformers... lamps... installation consumables like grease.

very true, didnt concider that. I hope if he gets his licene he will charge properly...

pete scalia
02-08-2008, 09:07 PM
All he is adding up is fixtures anyways. No splicing supplies.. transformers... lamps... installation consumables like grease.

Last job I did for the season in Dec 07 I forgot to calculate grease costs in my bid. That mistake Damn near put me out of business. You won't catch me making that mistake in 08 I can promise you.

OUTLANDER
02-08-2008, 10:14 PM
i dont know,but getting back to who rudely put it to me,i have an opinion for you.............sounds to me all you took time to learn,becoming the professional you are is how to sell products as well as yourself.Ever think of who's buying ?try that sometimes,it'll help you become a real professional.........reason being,yes anyone can plant a tree,and make it live,but this dont mean you have to take a customers 1st born as payment.......these products with big$ is a joke,and can fail as well as any when talking electrical manufactured products.Dont get me wrong,i like and prefer better things as well as the next,but at at a customers request,or even my reasoning,id rather help a customer on with an affordable job that i put my professional touch on installing,instead of just going based on what quality product is in it

pete scalia
02-08-2008, 10:29 PM
i dont know,but getting back to who rudely put it to me,i have an opinion for you.............sounds to me all you took time to learn,becoming the professional you are is how to sell products as well as yourself.Ever think of who's buying ?try that sometimes,it'll help you become a real professional.........reason being,yes anyone can plant a tree,and make it live,but this dont mean you have to take a customers 1st born as payment.......these products with big$ is a joke,and can fail as well as any when talking electrical manufactured products.Dont get me wrong,i like and prefer better things as well as the next,but at at a customers request,or even my reasoning,id rather help a customer on with an affordable job that i put my professional touch on installing,instead of just going based on what quality product is in it

You don't have a clue what your talking about. You get what you pay for plain and simple. You want cheap then buy those composites somebody recommended that will break over time. You want something to last then you buy the best which is always the most expensive. All these guys think they are doing their customers a favor by "saving them money". Your not saving them anything when I must come in their and tear out the junk you put in and replace it with the best. Give me a break.

OUTLANDER
02-08-2008, 10:32 PM
oh ,and yes your site is very nice and quite intimidating to someone who knows nothing about this(which is the whole purpose right?)......bet me there is folks out there showing up you, and your high dollar site right now,at way more affordable,convincing,and correct prices ($500 for service call? what?) anyway,sorry had to go there,highballing can get out of control too........BUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE WAS REALLY GREAT

pete scalia
02-08-2008, 10:38 PM
oh ,and yes your site is very nice and quite intimidating to someone who knows nothing about this(which is the whole purpose right?)......bet me there is folks out there showing up you, and your high dollar site right now,at way more affordable,convincing,and correct prices ($500 for service call? what?) anyway,sorry had to go there,highballing can get out of control too........BUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE WAS REALLY GREAT

You can continue to sell to Kaymart customers all day with your mentality. me, I'll take the Nordstroms and Bergdorf Goodman well heeled variety thank you.

OUTLANDER
02-08-2008, 10:42 PM
i agree pete,being that you're probably one of those who has in mind what the bill is even before seeing what junk is there to be replaced or not....THATS WHY YOU SELL IT,or better yet how you sell it

OUTLANDER
02-08-2008, 10:44 PM
sounds like you got it going on,way to go

pete scalia
02-08-2008, 11:11 PM
Nothing wrong with making an honest living , feeding your family and making your customers happy. It's only money. Nothing more nothing less. Some have an unhealthy attachment to it. Those that are stingy are not usually successful.

Venturewest
02-09-2008, 12:32 AM
unreal... look at the sticky at the top of the forum. I cant imagine any of you guys stay in business with the unproffesionalism. Im not flaming any of you directly. Its just really sad you guys toss around your makeshift profits and pricing for the world to see.

Not trying to be inflamatory, just challenging. Here are some quotes from Pro-Scapes for the world to see. :)

bingo. Kill it first or just yank it all. Should come up easy. I pulled 5 like that last year in about an hour. 90 bucks for the pita factor and I disposed of it. If u cut it up while its aline good chance of it coming back. I think I snaked a chain round it then pulled it up by hand on some of em tho. I transplanted some in my yard when I lived out west
__________________
-Billy
Integrity Outdoor Lighting

I know my numbers. Was just wondering what if anything others would give off in order to have em all lined up like that. obviously less windshield time and more productive time has to be worth something. I need to figure it out tho and was hoping for some opinions on this because if everyone or alot of guys in the industry would give up a few bucks to have just one stop in a day then obviously i need to take that into consideration in my bid. I just typed the bid and put it in for 470 but put note in the bid that these are rental properties and if there is excessive trash or obstructions in the way areas may be passed over or extra charges will result for trash clean up.
__________________
-Billy
Integrity Outdoor Lighting

I just dont get this client tho. Original system went in 5/06 added 3 lights within a week. Called back and added 11 or 12 more within 6 mo.

Handed them thier service contract this month. They freaked at the price of 389.00 and said it comes to 130 a visit (not true) and that some of the system was not yet a year old. I saw thier point in that so I bumped it to 329 this year and full price next year. They are happy now and paid it.

__________________
-Billy
Integrity Outdoor Lighting

Yeah we were thinking 480. Maybe tad less due to our market is a bit lower. I'm thinkin its going to go for lower than that and dont wanna lose this deal over $20 With gas prices right now I would kill to have an entire days work all lined up like that. Would save me $30+ in gas.
__________________
-Billy
Integrity Outdoor Lighting

extlights
02-09-2008, 01:24 AM
That is just plain ignorance. Re-read that post that you quoted Billy saying and then try again. He said make shift profits and pricing....I don't see anywhere in the other quotes that you oddly decided to post where he mentioned anything about his cost, profits or anything else. He simply was stating potential service fees to his customers....none of those quotes you posted that he said in other threads has anything to do with what he was trying to say in this thread. lol..wow Unreal. :hammerhead:

extlights
02-09-2008, 01:48 AM
Outlander....what you need to realize before you think that all us lighting guys are just ripping people off is that our customers are most likely not your customers. We don't target your everyday suburban neighborhood. And yes we do know who's buying...it's the customers that we target, the customers that want and can afford the finer things in life...not your $200k-$400K average homes. We are in a niche business and all of us who participate on this forum regularly are lighting professionals for a reason, and alot of us only specialize in lighting. It's our name and reputation on the line and when you're dealing with the upper class customers, only the best will do and the best isn't cheap.

OUTLANDER
02-09-2008, 02:55 AM
i stand corrected there,well put.....apologize, didnt mean it like that,or didnt mean to put it like that...........was meaning more along the line that i, who dont specialize in mainly lighting,do thrive for perfection,and strongly stress that with less than perfect means,can and will provide a customer with a quality job that i stand by

Venturewest
02-09-2008, 07:39 AM
I am not trying to be a jerk, and actually I need to apologize to Billy. I have been on this lighting forum (mostly reading and absorbing) since before Paul even came on the scene. I saw the transformation when Paul first brought great knowledge and assistance to the forum. My point was not really to bash Billy, or even to say that the kind of pricing he was mentioning was the same as what was mentioned in the lighting thread. I guess it was an attempt to be a reminder of humility. That even as we gain knowledge and skill, we can be sensitive to the other people that are not yet "enlightened".

pete scalia
02-09-2008, 08:09 AM
Not trying to be inflamatory, just challenging. Here are some quotes from Pro-Scapes for the world to see. :)

bingo. Kill it first or just yank it all. Should come up easy. I pulled 5 like that last year in about an hour. 90 bucks for the pita factor and I disposed of it. If u cut it up while its aline good chance of it coming back. I think I snaked a chain round it then pulled it up by hand on some of em tho. I transplanted some in my yard when I lived out west
__________________
-Billy
Integrity Outdoor Lighting

I know my numbers. Was just wondering what if anything others would give off in order to have em all lined up like that. obviously less windshield time and more productive time has to be worth something. I need to figure it out tho and was hoping for some opinions on this because if everyone or alot of guys in the industry would give up a few bucks to have just one stop in a day then obviously i need to take that into consideration in my bid. I just typed the bid and put it in for 470 but put note in the bid that these are rental properties and if there is excessive trash or obstructions in the way areas may be passed over or extra charges will result for trash clean up.
__________________
-Billy
Integrity Outdoor Lighting

I just dont get this client tho. Original system went in 5/06 added 3 lights within a week. Called back and added 11 or 12 more within 6 mo.

Handed them thier service contract this month. They freaked at the price of 389.00 and said it comes to 130 a visit (not true) and that some of the system was not yet a year old. I saw thier point in that so I bumped it to 329 this year and full price next year. They are happy now and paid it.

__________________
-Billy
Integrity Outdoor Lighting

Yeah we were thinking 480. Maybe tad less due to our market is a bit lower. I'm thinkin its going to go for lower than that and dont wanna lose this deal over $20 With gas prices right now I would kill to have an entire days work all lined up like that. Would save me $30+ in gas.
__________________
-Billy
Integrity Outdoor Lighting

This is a business not a hobby.

Pro-Scapes
02-09-2008, 04:27 PM
I am not trying to be a jerk, and actually I need to apologize to Billy. I have been on this lighting forum (mostly reading and absorbing) since before Paul even came on the scene. I saw the transformation when Paul first brought great knowledge and assistance to the forum. My point was not really to bash Billy, or even to say that the kind of pricing he was mentioning was the same as what was mentioned in the lighting thread. I guess it was an attempt to be a reminder of humility. That even as we gain knowledge and skill, we can be sensitive to the other people that are not yet "enlightened".

Not trying to be a jerk? hrmmm ok if you say so.

My discussing of pricing was like Dave said... what i changed my clients no thats not the same thing.. not "hey i bought some malibus for 35 bucks and slammed em in for 300" or some crap like that.

For you to have enough time to do back years ago on posts of mine shows you really have a bit to much time on your hands. Some of what you quoted too is before I got into lighting seriously and just about anyone here (regulars and thoes who personally know me) will tell you I have progressed and grown tremendously over the last few years. To have a group of new guys who know little to nothing about lighting come in and start bashing people is a little uncalled for. All I asked is you not discuss wholesale or contractor pricing in public and be proffesional. You will find more than enough help here to get you out of some touch situations.

As for my original firm post to lou I was being firm for his own protection. I wanted it clear how serious it is to be licensed and im glad he is listening or at least says he will have an electrician install it.

I dont get how or why you dug thru 2000 posts to find info that really has no relations to this.