cost comparison Organic Vs. Traditional

[Newby08]

What is the cost comparison of organic chemicals compared to traditional chemicals? I was talking to a lesco dealer earlier today who obviously baulked at the idea of using only organics and he was saying that it would be alot more expensive and a lot more work involved, applying once a month rather than once every 6 weeks. I was wandering if any of you have any experience using this as a commercial application of only organic lawn care. Is it more expensive for me and is it more expensive for the customer? I live in Georgia and organics are just barely beginning to make their way down here if at all. I might be one of the first pioneers. I can't find any other organic companies around. Any help would be nice. I really like the idea of using only organics but if its not going to work then I am willing to do a hybrid and have it as an option if I have to.

Thanks
Adam

[ICT Bill]

Do you really expect your fertilizer supplier to tell you "no, you don't need to come here anymore, just go down to southern states and buy some alfalfa meal"?
Cost justify all you would like, the fact of the matter is that you can grow better grass and it will cost you less money in the long run than "YOUR BUDDY'S" program.
Did he also ask you for your order, Oh and by the way ferilizer prices have gone up 64%

All kidding aside you will have to investigate the different types of programs out there and what you are comfortable with.

Some I have spoken too feel more comfortable using organic based products and with 5% of the customers using a meal or compost or some mixture of total organic, just so they can watch the results an a few and tweak if necessary

[Newby08]

OK, at first I was lost, then I understood you were kidding, then I got lost again. Basically all I got from there was that it is cheaper in the long run and fertilizer has gone through the roof. I didn't quite catch on to what the last part was about and any idea where I might can find some of these programs to look at? Or is it the same as a traditional program just changing the chemicals around?

Thanks
Adam

[ICT Bill]

Look at Barry Draycotts company techterra they have some great performing organic based products, their products put a lot of organic matter in the soil which is a key

Read up on compost teas at the soil food web site

order the book by jeff lowenfels, teaming with microbes, and read it right away

go to the NOFA site www.organiclandcare.net and order the book on organic lawn care, they also have good books on organic pesticides and herbicides

buy Paul Tukeys book "the organic lawn care manual" and use it as a reference
I'm beat good night

[dtally]

Two great books, read then both and still refer to them. Another great book is "Soil Biology Primer", it's a great place to learn what the soil food web is all about and why organics are so important.

Mother Nature did a really good job all by her self, then we can along and started "improving things" and destroyed millions of years of hard work.

[Newby08]

dtally, your from SC? How is the organics market in your area? I can hardly find any here in GA and I'm unsure of how the market is here. Also some have said that it will be harder to control insects and stuff since it doesn't get cold enough here to kill them off in the winter. Just the other day I saw yellow jackets and a mosquito and it's the beginning of Feb.

[Newby08]

sounds like I've got some -more- reading to do. thanks for the advice, I'll definitly track them down. I've already been talking to Tech Terra too, good to here that they are a good company.
Thanks for the help
Adam

[dtally]

I don't think NC or SC is not much different than anywhere else, as far as organics goes. Controlling pest is a problem with organics; I have not found much if anything that works very well. Sure wish someone could shed some light on this. As far as the market goes, SC and NC both are great, I have several competitors, some doing a bang up job and others, well… I don’t like to talk bad about people.

If you are looking for a supplier, we have a company in SC called Organic Plant Healthcare, www.organicplanthealthcare.com. They carry Nutrients Plus products as well as their own specialty products. I don’t know where in GA you are but Atlanta is not far from Charlotte.

[Smallaxe]

sounds like I've got some -more- reading to do.

That is the number one problem with anyone starting an organic program.
The fear that one needs to be an expert before even getting experience.
Replace a fertilizer application with a compost application and see if the fert. was missed.
Analyse what you see and gain from that experience. Then take another step :)

If you think that skipping a fert application will destroy the lawn. Don't worry about it. The other 5 apps will cover you. lol.

When I took over a Chemlawn lawn the grass was burning out , thinning, and the blower was picking it up in whole chunks like a rotting carpet. 6 apps per season with no irrigation.
The first thing I did was nothing. In the fall applied a winterizer and that was it, other than mowing.

I tried to reseed but the soil was so polluted nothing germinated that first year. Weeds niether. Don't be afraid to take a simple step of any kind. Following a "program" makes no more sense in organics than it does with synthetics.

Programs are for people who can't think on their feet. If the lawn is fine don't fix it. If there is a problem learn to treat the problem not the symptom.

[Newby08]

so what do you do to keep the customer happy when you send them the bill if you do nothing? how are you suppose to make any money? I'm not saying I just want to make money, I want to do this right and treat my customers right but I also need to make money. Around here it is mostly bermuda grass, any takes on if that has much different effect than anything else or needs to be treated any differently. I'm pretty sure it doesn't other than the cutting height. Like I said I'm new at this so I have plenty of questions.

[Gerry Miller]

so what do you do to keep the customer happy when you send them the bill if you do nothing? how are you suppose to make any money? I'm not saying I just want to make money, I want to do this right and treat my customers right but I also need to make money. Around here it is mostly bermuda grass, any takes on if that has much different effect than anything else or needs to be treated any differently. I'm pretty sure it doesn't other than the cutting height. Like I said I'm new at this so I have plenty of questions.

Burmuda is a N hog. It needs to be fed every 4 weeks with say soybean meal or cgm to thrive.

It also needs to be mowed short and that will prevent weeds from appearing.

[Elden]

Newby, If you are not applying anything you have to communicate to the customer that you are a professional and your time is worth money. If you are on their property inspecting, taking samples, etc... you should get paid. They don't get to see the doctor for free. It's sad to say but you probly care more about making their lawn look good than their doctor cares about their health. I had a simple form made up that states what I did while I was at the customers home. Simple check boxes w/ common problems attached to the work order/invoice.

dtally, what kind of pest are you having problems controlling?

[Kiril]

I had a simple form made up that states what I did while I was at the customers home. Simple check boxes w/ common problems attached to the work order/invoice

Nice.

Is there room for making recommendations on your checklist?

Would you post your list so maybe we all could come up with something similar that could be universally applicable to residential/commercial landscaping?

[Smallaxe]

so what do you do to keep the customer happy when you send them the bill if you do nothing? how are you suppose to make any money? I'm not saying I just want to make money, I want to do this right and treat my customers right but I also need to make money. Around here it is mostly bermuda grass, any takes on if that has much different effect than anything else or needs to be treated any differently. I'm pretty sure it doesn't other than the cutting height. Like I said I'm new at this so I have plenty of questions.

The suggestions given are good ones. Adding the meals etc. as fertilizer is not doing nothing. Skipping a synthetic application to put down compost is also doing something. How much you charge for compost vs. syn.fert. is up tp you. I personally keep it the same so they don't get the idea that I do compost for a higher profit.

Dropping back from 6 to 4 apps. may seem to be losing money, but if you are highly regarded as a pioneer in organic/natural/*cidefree/ lawncare business you make it up in volume. The neighbors' 4 apps totals 8, 12,16 ... apps. Some jobs are known as investment in your future.

Have a healthier more environmentally friendly lawn for even less money than the chemical companies can provide?
Don't find your business stepping over dollars to pick up nickels.

For those clients not interestted, you continue upping the pay scale as always.

[Newby08]

what does the cost comparison look like for customers for organic as opposed to synthetic? I've read that there is a large initial start up cost but then goes down from their. How "large" is that exactly? Do your customers ever baulk at that initial cost and how technical do you get with the customers about whats going on with the soil and all?

I take it organics are taken pretty good with someone who has never used them before or is it something you have to convince them of?

[Newby08]

what do you use to put down your compost? Do you use a spreader or do you just shovel it?

[Smallaxe]

what does the cost comparison look like for customers for organic as opposed to synthetic? I've read that there is a large initial start up cost but then goes down from their. How "large" is that exactly? Do your customers ever baulk at that initial cost and how technical do you get with the customers about whats going on with the soil and all?

I take it organics are taken pretty good with someone who has never used them before or is it something you have to convince them of?

The intitial start up cost is the spreading of the compost in the spring instead of a fert.app.
You can complicate it as much as you would like, but that step requires no special tests. Unless you get a lot of jobs and lots of compost to justify a machine to spread compost for you. Just do it yourself like you would grass seed from a bag you carry or slung around your neck, (I find the shovel is not a good spreader) then mow to more evenly distribute it.

I am working on redesigning a fertilizer spreader to handle compost. Just a small one bag hopper thing.

Keep in mind that your client will be only as comfortable as you are. Tell them up front it is ususally a better idea to do a gradual change over - so there is alway the syns. to fall back on - but you should already see by the following season that you need very little NPK if any at all.

A question you want to keep in mind is "What do I do - if I need to kill insects and/or grubs in the lawn?"

Fungicides and pesticides will definately set back an organic program pretty quick.
There is where the CTs could be helpful afterwards if I am understanding it all correctly.

You do not need to be a 'purist' right off the bat. Get to 1st base then see if you can get home later.

[Newby08]

hey small, do you use manufactured organic fertilizers or do you pick up your stuff from a local feed store?

[Smallaxe]

hey small, do you use manufactured organic fertilizers or do you pick up your stuff from a local feed store?

I have only been free to start experimenting with organics about 4 yrs ago in other peoples' lawns for the same reason you have now. Uncertainty.!.!
I have done many things in the landscapes that involve organic practices that I apply to my own garden, that have been very successful. Lawns are touchy in that if I fall below the green standard I could lose the business to the big Chemlawn type companies.

To answer your question I have picked up supplies on the internet that I thought was worth a try and of course the old Wisconsin stand by, Milorganite. I like the idea of Milorganite in that the iron content is high. Compost I get locally and when applied I see a definate difference particularily when overseeding.

I have not used the meals from the feed stores but I would suggest putting them down because of all the talk and the fact that they are organic feeds, which will breakdown and release their value eventually. So there is nothing to lose, even if you need to do an NPK app. to keep it green in the meanwhile.

I intend to use them this year one a couple of properties. No NPK at all, because I think it is ready. If I see failure looming by the end of summer I can always NPK for the winterizer and rethink my strategies for the spring. However, I expect complete success with happy clients at a lower cost to them than the chemical company bills.

In fact the clients that I am experimenting with don't even know I am employing organic practices. Niether do they know that I intend to eliminate synthetics all together this year. All they know is the improvements in the lawn and how it doesn't cost them an arm and a leg to have one of the nicest lawns ever. I am also to the point of weeding by hand and the extra 10 minutes is a part of the mowing cost. Many times that 10 minutes is not even needed but the cost is fixed :)

[Newby08]

so you are transitioning out of synthetics to organics. Why use synthetics at all? From what I can tell there is organic fertilizers out there that will do the job. The only reason I can find so far to use any synthetics might be for insects if needed. But then if your soil is right you shouldn't have many insect or weed problems for that matter. The other thing I still am trying to figure out is if you do get weeds then what can you do organically to get rid of the weeds? maybe that too is a place for synthetics until the lawn is healthy enough to eradicate weed growth on its own. I think from what I have learned so far that I will be able to do a majority of organic lawn care with just a few apps of synthetics for certain situations kind of like what you are getting at now. I also seem to think, like you were saying, that if the organics aren't moving fast enough to throw a little NPK on the lawn to keep the customers happy if things aren't moving at their speed.

Let me know what you think, I know I just repeated some of what you just got done saying but thats kind of me just stating what I've found and figuring where I still have questions.

I think it can be done, this is awesome,
Adam

[dtally]

Smallaxe made a great point.. take note. Treat the problem not the symptom. Great advice for someone just starting out. Now that easy to say and it's sometimes hard todo, because you need to know what symptoms are related to what problems. That's where this site come in realy handy. Someone has already encountered the same situation and will have a solution to the problem.

We all want to make money, period. But the passion you have about your lawns will shine thru and enentually make you money year after year. People know when you care. Make those extera trips to talk with your client, if you are passing close buy, stop in and check things out, spray a few weed if needd... leave them a note saying I stopped by and sprayed a few weeds (or something to that extent) and at the bottom NO CHARGE.

Trust me, they will become a valued customer.

[Newby08]

Understood,
So, how far off was I with my statement? Am I so far off base or am I possibly actually getting a hang of this? I know that either way I have just barely scratched the surface if I have even done that but do you think that I will be able to start organics this year or should I possibly hold off until I better understand things?

Adam

[Smallaxe]

Understood,
So, how far off was I with my statement? Am I so far off base or am I possibly actually getting a hang of this? I know that either way I have just barely scratched the surface if I have even done that but do you think that I will be able to start organics this year or should I possibly hold off until I better understand things?

Adam

You understand better by doing , not just reading. It is not an all or nothing scenario. You do not have to advertise great promises or purist ideals. Just begin the break away from over fertilization, overwatering, overpricing and overselling crap that people don't need. You will be rewarded for that and be seen as a cut above the rest.

I would really like to see someone on this forum actually do something and talk about it so we could all do better next year. What have you got to lose by trying? What have you got to lose by postponing?

Here is a question that may clarify your doubts. Why is it that many horticulturalists and agricultural researchers believe that it is not only unnecessary to apply ferts (to turf) in early spring but is actually a bad idea?
Whether you want to believe them or not - the question is - what is their reasoning behind it?

You can safely stand on that practice and be more organic and natural than somebody who is trying to get N in the root zone as soon as the plants wake up. Believe me. It is worth investigating whether you are organic or not :)

[Newby08]

Here is a question that may clarify your doubts. Why is it that many horticulturalists and agricultural researchers believe that it is not only unnecessary to apply ferts (to turf) in early spring but is actually a bad idea?
Whether you want to believe them or not - the question is - what is their reasoning behind it?

That almost sounded very profound...
so... where can i go to figure that out?

[Elden]

I will try to post my check list when I get back home I am out of town for the weekend. And yes it does have a place that I can add additional comments. The work sheet is mostly for maint. and inspection as I am not doing any treatments until 2009, but I will be modifing it later to incorporate treatments. (dang non-compete) I made it on works as well as my invoices.

[Smallaxe]

I found that concept when reading about fertilizing grazing lands and a couple of county extension websites. It deals directly with the concept of plant growth and ability of soils to produce nutrients through the winter before spring growth.

Ideally your grass went into winter with a large storehouse of carbohydrates. So the grass wakes up in the spring a starts using these carbohydrate to grow roots and leaf. They are in a homogenous soil so the roots grow in all directions and as the surface dries they grow deeper.

This happens quite naturally and works fine unless, there is a burst of N on the surface and your roots start out the spring growing laterally - rather than down. That burst of N also forces the plant to give up its storehouse more quickly to produce all the extra greenery.

How much N and water does it take to keep Bermuda alive and healthy? I have heard here that it has high requirements. You should experiment to see just how true that is. A proper growing environment 'utilizes' the N. High application rates 'wastes' alot of N.

Will you do organic programs for those who insist on bagging the grass clippings each time?

[Newby08]

sure, I don't plan on doing any maintenance, just chemicals. I figured I will bring in the maintenance later on if I want to. I worked for a company for a little while that had over 4000 customers so I am kind of using what I saw there to determine how to structure my business. I know what you mean by the grass clippings though, I'm not too worried about it though. When i was cutting the lawns and catching the grass there was still a lot left over on the ground when it rained you could see the run off of clippings. If you don't pick them up and let the grass get to tall then you will not have any grass just grass clippings and thatch crap shows up. Bermuda is pretty thick and grows pretty quick. The thing that I'm use to doing like you said though is just pouring the nitrogen into it, it seemed that if you didn't keep the N up then the lawn wouldn't stay nearly as green. But then again thats using only synthetics and nothing organic. So I'm sure that organics will have the same effect since you are actually having a healthy lawn, not just the appearance. That is one area that I wish there were more people doing organics in my area. As of right now I've only found one other organic based company here in North Georgia so it's still a new idea and not many people to compare processes to.
So how long do you wait to start the fertilizer? And being that its organic isn't it suppose to wait until the plant needs it before it is released? Kind of goes back to the whole its pretty much impossible to burn a lawn.

Adam

[Smallaxe]

The thatch problem goes away with rich organisms in the lawn. In fact on the leaner soils I am going to add more leaves to the mulch mower, just to keep it building.
If you are picking up the clippings you are going to need more compost and feeds. Clippings supposedly have the N back into the plants within 3 days. I read that along time ago and I can believe it, if there are worms making a steady diet of it.

Without the grass clippings you might need to calculate back 2 or 6 weeks, (it takes about 2 weeks for NPK and closer to 6 weeks for organic ferts to get into the soil profile and be utilized by the plant), and have it there just before the heat stress hits it.

Here it means before Memorial weekend so it is into the roots by the 4th of July. However, I recycle the clippings whenever possible so that application is a, "just in case", supplemental.

How will you handle watering if your client wants lush and green in the dead of summer?
Does Bermuda go dormant in the dry heat or does it start dieing off?

[Newby08]

Bermuda will go dormant, its a really tuff grass and if you get in your flower beds you have the fight of your life to get it out. It is also pretty drought resistant, unless we have a true drought like we have been. If someone has a sprinkler system it usually will keep up and stay green. I'm sure an organic lawn being able to store water even better will do a much better job as well. You also have to take in that right now all our lawns except maybe the oldest ones are built on our infamous "red clay." If you've never been down this way when we say red clay we mean red clay. You can take it, mush it together and you have the same substance you make pots out of. There for the water retention probably isn't that geat. The only good soil you have is what came with the sod which as you know is about an inch thick if that. The watering will have to be done after each application. You see we have been under a drought the past few years and they have put harsh water restrictions on us. Last year they took away all watering even for new landscape plants. If you had something planted it had to be by a professional and then you could water for 30 days I think. That is why I have held off starting the business until now. The governor just came back and changed the rules so that you can water for 25 min a day on certain days according to your address and then you can water in any applications that are made by a professional... thats me. I take it your saying that the lawn clippings will not be such an issue if the soil is in good shape with the right organisms like nematodes and such. The other problem is that Bermuda when in good shape and cut right becomes almost a literal rug... its nothing like fescue grass that is tall and thin, this stuff intertwines with itself and if you let it grow to long you literally will have mounds of clippings left over. When I did cut grass I was using a Walker and it would catch most of the clippings and would leave a "dusting" if you call it that, that was thick enough to cover up the driveway enough to not be able to see the concrete. I understand leaving the clippings on grasses like fescue though. There is also Zoysia and Centipede that is very similar to bermuda in the thickness of the lawns. Our heat arrives about late April early May, and by June its usually cooking. So with it taking so much time for organic fertilizers to get to the soil I should put it down about March or April? Probably more April to be safer.

Another thing... What would you suggest as a good pre emergent for a lawn that is in the transitional stage and one that has a good soil base? Corn gluten from what I understand is the only organic pre emergent but is high in N. I guess that won't be such a bad thing for bermuda though since it gorges on N.

[ICT Bill]

Newby
Do you guys overseed with annual rye in the winter? I have seen the practice on golf courses in the south but did not know if its done in residencial and commercial.

In cool weather grasses you gain your foothold on the weed populations by overseeding constantly. In the NOFA course they teach to use different types of annual grasses to get the grass so thick that basically no weeds can grow in it.
Some of the annuals have deeper root systems than others and penetrate deeper in the soil, when the annual eventually dies off it leaves a path behind for the other root systems to follow.

Maybe someone that has taken the course can chime in on the practice.

[Newby08]

yeah, some people will put down rye during the winter for green lawn while the bermuda is dormant. Most people don't bother with it though. Bermuda grows so thick that it is hard to get a good thick lawn of it and it never seems to turn a dark green, it always seems to be a light green. I've been seeing more and more people actually painting their lawns. I didn't believe it at first but the closer I looked at it its obvious to tell. The first one I saw looked great... the second one though used a different tone of green and it looked painted. It was horrible.

Do you think that this has any effect on the lawn itself? This guys yard looks great during the summer also, very healthy and green. The painted lawn looked so good that I even thought about painting mine too. I know that is the farthest thing from organic but bermuda is pretty tuff and a lot of its new growth comes from the roots, some comes from the old grass stalks. Another common practice is to "scalp" the lawn where you take it down to the soil almost and it will grow back fresh.

[Smallaxe]

When you spread the compost on the Bermuda it will wash into the soil and off the greenery correct? Sounds like a great thick grass. Yes eventually the compost on the clay will increase the water retention of both.

I believe the typical pre-m is the corn gluten and should double as fert as well.
Are surface roots a problem in Bermuda in the sense that deep roots are desirable for KBG or fescue? We can really create a thatch problem in a hurry with these grasses.

What sort of pre-m or strategy would you use for rotten granite driveways and walkways through a landscape?

Lawn paints with an organic foliar feed could be good :)

[Newby08]

not sure what your asking as far as...
Are surface roots a problem in Bermuda in the sense that deep roots are desirable for KBG or fescue?


bermuda is a very thin blade so the compost should go right to the ground after a quick rinse...

rotten granite driveways and walkways
Must be a northern thing, never seen granite walkways or driveways around here, all concrete, if there is a stone or anything that would get in the way and I would be afraid of it staining or effecting any way I would just blow it off with my blower.

[Newby08]

have you ever painted a lawn... i take it your lawns up there are mostly fescue so i would doubt it, just wandering.

[Smallaxe]

The idea of surface roots vs. deep roots in my last post was in reference to your description of Bermuda being a tangle of intertwined leaves and stems. Sometimes plants that have the growth pattern that came into my mind grow roots close to the surface as a natural course of action. Does Bermuda do better as the roots grow deeper?

Yes, up here rotten granite is quite funtional in many different landscapes and corn gluten as a pre-m ,is adding OM to an area where OM is not a good thing. Vinegar is probably ok after the weeds start growing and hopefully the population has dwindled over time.

I still think it is easier to contol weeds in a lawn that a rotten granite area. The weeds alway seem to return so an occasional synthetic pre-m may always be a necessity there when the spraying of vinegar becomes too frequently a burden.

Never painted a lawn but would like to see one. Generally our landscapes are green until they turn white. Amazingly they're is still green under our current 2 feet of white.

[growingdeeprootsorganicly]

NEWBY08,
LESCO will never tell u organics are better so don't ever worry about what that guy says,
learn every thing you can and when you think you got it learn some more.

you have to get to basics don't try to over complicate it( it's ok i do it all the time.lol )

the bermudagrass you guys have down there, every one talks about how much n it needs and how much it grows....it probably grows to much cause of excessive n

theres more to plant health then just npk, the other secondary macros and micros are just important, ( learn about these) if not more for proper health, you definitely need p k but n is way over used, a good organic soil the microbiology will provide alot of n by them selves.

think about it this way. if you eat mcD's every day you will get some energy but in the long run your health will decline,

also if you provide all the proper nutrition to the plants and the proper growing environment the grass will be very health and probably green too.
and if your cutting with out the excessive n there won't be as many clippings

im sort of new to organics my self but ive been landscaping for 11 years and ive seen it all as far as chems and the problems that go with them.
thats why i got into organics cause i wanted to provide the best care for people and thats through the natural practices i found.

being the only organic guy in your neighborhood is a good thing for you since your not cutting at all, there is a door open for you if you can provide a good service, thats up to you though.

you can't look at it in terms like what are the differences in price cause it all depends on the property your on and how bad or good is it to start.
depending on that you can guessed amate how much it's going to cost to put things in balance, like the soil, you need good soil for this to work
and you also have to understand these are hi input landscapes and they will always need alot of attention to keep them productive.
then once your soil is corrected you can then put them on a semi normal priced fert schedule to keep things going.

look at this way to , what do your customers want? do they want a safe place for their children to play? do they want the healthiest landscape possible and that their property isn't hurting the environment at the same time.
people will pay for those things some will not, thats life

organic isn't rocket science but to be a good organics guy you will need to study many areas of horticulture, many, so you can provide the best service you can
it's not going to happen over night and not even after you read 20 books.
you need to get out in the field and see whats what. and then read some more. oh ya and talk to as many people in the sustainable field as possible and just keep asking questions, and learn

as long as you have passion in your heart to do this you will be ok.
but it sounds to me you need alot more experience witch is fine i do to but i can fall back on lawn maintenance and landscaping while i learn though, you might consider doing both also too, thats a good strategy to start

go back to square one and learn about soilfoodweb/plants/soil/irrigation/ferts/pest control/decease control/business/ete/ete. do you want to be ok at what you do or the best? your customers expect the best. just keep that in mind,
best wishes in biz.

[Newby08]

small, bermuda does have short roots. Here everything has short roots. Our red clay doesnt have any nutrients except for the first inch or two then its just that... red clay. Any grasses like fescue are rarely used anymore but in special occasions where a homeowner just likes the look or they just have a lot of open land and try to sow it every year. But with our soil it usually has a lot of problems and bare spots. I'm hoping that with the proper organic based care that it needs I will be able to get the grass growing like it should.

growing, thanks for the advice, I've been in the landscape business before and I'm going to try to design the business around chems only but still leave a door open for maintenance. There are so many people around here doing maintenance that prices are being driven so low I don't know if I want to get back into it again. There is so much work and so little money after all the repairs and equipment. But like I said, I will definitely keep the door open just in case. If I did get back into it though I will definitely be charging for it... I'm too much of a perfectionist to just charge what the normal guys do. I found that out the hard way, spent way to much time on each lawn for way to little money.

Thanks for the input.

[Smallaxe]

small, bermuda does have short roots. Here everything has short roots. Our red clay doesnt have any nutrients except for the first inch or two then its just that... red clay. Any grasses like fescue are rarely used anymore but in special occasions where a homeowner just likes the look or they just have a lot of open land and try to sow it every year. But with our soil it usually has a lot of problems and bare spots. I'm hoping that with the proper organic based care that it needs I will be able to get the grass growing like it should.

That is a correct assessment IMO that the adding of OM is going to create a better and deeper growing environment for roots in the clay environment.
I would suggest topdressing with sand and OM if you have an access to both, just as an experiment for yourself. But if I were to suggest that there is likely to be a backlash about how that should not be done. So I am not even going to go there :)

It only takes time. Just don't promise to kill weeds with corn gluten and then fail. The organic move into lawn care was tried 30 - 40 years ago but was soundly discredited and pushed under the rug because promises were made falsely.
Chemlawn came to the rescue and has flourished ever since. Good luck and keep us abreast of real life occurances. It could be a very interesting summer.

[GaGolfSup]

Bermuda is actually capable of producing very deep roots. I've actually seen 12 inch roots on bermuda. It all depends on soil. Feed it slowy. Water it sparingly and increase organic matter and the bermuda will go crazy.

[quiet]

Yes, exactly. Bermuda is very DEEP rooted grass.

[ICT Bill]

Welcome to the forum GaGolfSup I hope we hear a lot more from you in the future.
I am experienced with cool weather grasses it would be great to know some inside info about zoyzia, bermuda, centipede, st augstene (sp?)

do these have deep roots in the right environment also?

[quiet]

Zoysia and bermuda are deep rooted, St. Augustine is also, but St. Aug has a very poor "drought mechanism". Turf stands are lost during extended drought periods, whereas bermuda and zoysia can recover when rainfall or irrigation occurs.

St. Augustine does fine around coastal areas where rainfall is plentiful, but where extended drought periods are the norm, zoysia and bermuda need less "intensive" care. Develop a deep root system, and they'll hold up well

I don't know a damn thing about centipede!

[Kiril]

I don't know a damn thing about centipede!

Isn't that a critter with a mess of legs? ;)

[Elden]

Centipede is actually a great grass. Where I am at it is used in 90% of new construction lawns. It is a very low maint. turf. It can tolerate soil pH in the 5's and still perform well, needs mowing 10-14 days, needs less water than st.aug., zoysia, or bermuda. And it only needs about 1-1 1/2 lbs of N a yr (I know it's the organic site and we don't look at things as lbs per 1,000. its just university recomendations) Personally I have not done anything to my lawn that was sodded about 2 1/2 years ago and the area that was sodded is 95% weed free. Could be a 100% w/ a lil elbow grease. I think last year I only turned my sprinkler on 3 or 4 times. It is a great turf I think personally. Some people do not like it because it is not as dark green as st. aug. but it is darker than most cool season varieties.

[Newby08]

like i said, all i've seen are clay soils with bermuda being in the top few inches... I guess when I did fight it in my beds I never could get to the bottom of the roots with there being much better soil.

[GaGolfSup]

Newby08, I know what you mean with the clays. Using the typical 5 or 6 apps of synthetic fertilizer and watering every other day the bermuda never will get very deep. You have to make it work for its water and nutrients. If it needs to it will break through even that tough Georgia red clay.

[Newby08]

Gagolf do you only do organics as a business or just at home? If so have you had a pretty good reception to it here?

[ICT Bill]

I believe GaGolfSup is a Georgia Golf Course supervisor at least that is my suspicion

[Newby08]

LOL, yeah, that would make since... I feel stupid.

[GaGolfSup]

I am actually a former golf course superintendent. I worked on golf courses for fifteen years and was an assistant or superintendent for ten. I have been working for a school system as a grounds coordinator for the past six months. It is a different world for sure....Anyway I have used organics on my golf course and at home. At neither place were they exclusive. Due to the pressures of quick results I have never gone cold turkey to synthetics. I am leaning more and more on that being the way to go...Last year I used a combination of Milorganite and a granular humate product on my home lawn. I know some will argue against this being organic. Anyway, I watered my lawn four times deeply in early May last year to help it transition from dormancy. I did not water the rest of the year and I had one of the greenest lawns in the neighborhood. I also had very deep roots. This year the plans are to use compost topdressing, CGM, and an app or two of Milorganite.

On the golf course I have used a product called Nature Safe as well as the aforementioned humate product. Nature Safe is a blend of different meals. Had I stayed on the golf course, I was planning on doing a few test plots with strictly organic.

[Smallaxe]

[QUOTE=GaGolfSup;2148941]I I am leaning more and more on that being the way to go...Last year I used a combination of Milorganite and a granular humate product on my home lawn. I know some will argue against this being organic. Anyway, I watered my lawn four times deeply in early May last year to help it transition from dormancy.

On the golf course I have used a product called Nature Safe as well as the aforementioned humate product. QUOTE]

The Milorganite I am familiar with but the humates are new to me. I read they are applied in small amounts and you seem to have an annual program that includes them. They are ok in repeated applications?

Also deep watering for early growth after dormancy of turf. 4 times no less. I love it :)
I assume you have clay to deal with as well - Do you find that it is able to 'retain' the water vs. 'repel' when you do get rains?

[GaGolfSup]

Clay will retain water actually better than most soils. The problem is getting it in the profile to begin with. I think the organics go a long way towards making the soils less repellent. It takes time though. I look at turf almost like a child. The first year or two it is not really capable of maintaining itself. As you build the soil profile and it gets deeper and deeper roots the more self sustaining it will be. Aeration is important at first, but I think it becomes less important as your turf matures and you feed it correctly. If you get the microbes working and the earthworms working, the soil opens itself up.

The humates contain so many micronutrients that I think it is a great beginning program. I have only been using them for a few years. I think soil testing is key, because long term use could result in heavy metal buildup. The other problem is they are mined in Utah, so it is not exactly the most environmentally friendly thing having them shipped from there.

[ICT Bill]

GaGolfSup
There is actually an excellent source of Humate very near you in Atlanta. The mine is owned by one individual that keeps it to himself and lets only a few folks use or market it. turfpro is one of the companies that bottle it

[GaGolfSup]

Thanks ICTBill I'll check it out.