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Victor
02-08-2008, 10:40 PM
Does anyone else here hot rod their application program by applying fulvic acid?

RigglePLC
02-08-2008, 11:26 PM
Victor: What?

ted putnam
02-09-2008, 12:09 AM
Does anyone else here hot rod their application program by applying fulvic acid?

If it's cheaper than fert :laugh: and it helps, I'd give it a whirl! Don't hold back...tell us more:confused:

Whitey4
02-09-2008, 12:12 AM
Fulvic acid.... I think that's what I would name what my female canine leaves on the lawn after a short squat. That, and nitro burn.

Victor
02-09-2008, 01:56 AM
:laugh: You guys know how long-winded I get. One of the benefits to incorporating fulvic acid in your app program, is that it enhances the uptake of other nutrients you apply to your lawns.

I can give you the long version if you'd like, but if you ask for the long-version, don't say you weren't warned. :laugh:

Victor
02-09-2008, 02:07 AM
Not only does fulvic acid improve the uptake of nutrients (that's because it increases the permeability of plant membranes), it also increases the drought tolerance of your lawns. In addition to those benefits, it also increases root formation and root respiration. It basically hot rods your program.

I did pretty well. Only 4 lines. :)

whoopassonthebluegrass
02-09-2008, 09:57 PM
Yeah. Around here they call that SNAKE OIL.

Lol. J/K.

DUSTYCEDAR
02-09-2008, 11:13 PM
ok how much u usin and where u gettin it?

PHS
02-10-2008, 10:41 AM
Hey Vic, Are there any legitimate studies on it's effectiveness? I'm open to new treatments but as we're all aware the green industry, the vitamin aisle's, and every other marketplace is absolutely flooded with miracle cures these days so I tend to wait for some solid info before jumping onto bandwagons.

phasthound
02-10-2008, 10:48 AM
Here is a good explanation on humates, humic acids, fluvic acids. Nothing new about the fact that they provide results.


by Gary Zimmer Organic matter, compost, humus, humates, humic acid and fulvic acid are all related to, and are parts of, decaying plant materials. These organic materials are food for soil life and a storehouse for minerals, energy and water. They also serve as mediums on which certain organisms can grow. Research is proving what farmers have long known to be true: humic substances stimulate plant roots and soil life (mostly fungal populations), chelate minerals (holding them for future use by plants), improve absorption of minerals for root and plant use, and improve the effectiveness of herbicides. This article will explain the different humic products available and how they presently are being used, while Lawrence Mayhew’s detailed review of the current scientific literature on the subject is available
in “Humic Substances in Biological Agriculture” (Acres U.S.A., Jan-Feb 2004)

Humate is a common term used to describe dry-mined carbonaceous materials found in areas where coal is mined.
They are correctly called leonardites or oxidized lignites. For many years the most commonly used humic product was a
black liquid extract called humic acid, obtained by mixing a strong base liquid material such as sodium hydroxide, or
more commonly potassium hydroxide, with a dry humate material. The black humic acid material (not really an acid —
the base extraction has a pH of 9-plus), usually a 6- or 12-percent solution, was most commonly mixed with fertilizers,
mixed with liquid nitrogen sources for use in transplant solutions, or mixed with herbicides. Its high pH meant that it could
cause the liquid mix to jell or precipitate out, thus careful mixing was required. Mixing it with phosphorus materials was
a real problem in many situations. Besides its use in transplant solutions (where it is highly diluted and doesn’t cause many problems), my favorite way to use humic acid is to mix it with liquid nitrogen sources. It provides an organic material for the nitrogen to hook to, therefore reducing leaching and loss of nitrogen and buffering the solution for more effective
and efficient use. My observations indicate that a rate of one to three gallons per acre, depending on nitrogen needs
(which can be reduced with humic acid use), seems to work best. Fulvic acid, another extraction from dry humates, is truly an acid. It is an acid extraction and has a pH near 3. It can be mixed with any liquid compound without difficulty. It is a part of the original material, but quite different from humic acid. My favorite place to use it is in liquid fertilizer mixes, where it buffers the soluble fertilizer, chelates it, and improves its uptake by the plants. Another common use for fulvic acid is to mix it with herbicides. Besides acidifying the tank mix, which helps the effectiveness of the herbicide, it again also chelates and improves the intake of the chemical. Application rates are from one quart to one gallon per acre, depending on the crop and on the amount and type of fertilizer and chemicals used.

If humic acid is extracted with a base, and fulvic acid extracted with acid, that which remains of the original humate is a
large molecule called humin, with a sponge-like ability to hold and absorb substances. My philosophy in agriculture is to use the whole compound wherever possible, not just parts or pieces. Sometimes the parts we leave behind have some real benefits — for example, the calcium, trace elements and rare earths remaining when the fertilizer industry extracts phosphorus from rock phosphates. The same is true for the minerals, vitamins, hormones and other unknown compounds left behind when cytokinins are extracted from kelp. Wherever possible, why not use the whole? As for humic substances — in the last few years micronized compounds with added suspending agents have been showing up in the marketplace. This is the original humic material ground really fine. This material can be used anywhere that humic and fulvic acids are used.

PHS
02-10-2008, 11:05 AM
phast, That's a good explanantion of what they are. I use a mulching mower (and mow-in fallen leaves) and topdress, all of which add organic matter to the soil. For the average lawn does it really make sense to buy an extract(?) to spray when nature is already doing on it's own? If it does are there any studies on it?

boats47
02-10-2008, 11:59 AM
The last lecture that was given at the UMASS winter turf school disscussed this theory and I say theory!! That was one thing that I found interesting about this professors lecture was stress on theory this would be benificial. If I am correct this in addion to adding humates to suppliment the soil, will increase the micro biology of the soil and will aid in the break down of organics into simple sugars to feed the turf. Once this is achieved you in most cases see the increase in the soil micro bio.
The way I understood it was that if you were to just add benficial microbs the popullation would intially stay high, but then die out rather fast because the soil can not suuport the population. Of course you could always go out and water your lawn with beer and that would support the microbs you added to the turf.
It is an intersting theory and by all points and should work to our benifit, I am not sure that we would see it on our level unless we walked around with a microscope. As I remember, though, the applications of insecticides do have an effect on the soil microbs so you woudl need it impliment this in an organic program.

phasthound
02-10-2008, 12:30 PM
phast, That's a good explanantion of what they are. I use a mulching mower (and mow-in fallen leaves) and topdress, all of which add organic matter to the soil. For the average lawn does it really make sense to buy an extract(?) to spray when nature is already doing on it's own? If it does are there any studies on it?

I'd say if you are getting the results you and your clients want continue doing what you're doing. If you are also applying salt based fertilizer and/or fungicides, you may be off setting the benefits of soil organic matter.

If you are using systemic liquid herbicides, you can reduce the rate by 25% by adding a small about of liquid humates.

Victor
02-10-2008, 12:35 PM
I haven't added fulvic acid to my program in years past. I was just considering adding it to my program this year. I've seen that various companies offer it and was just going to keep my eyes open for what I determined to be the best option for me.

I have read quite a few reports on them. I guess that's what you'd call them. "Reports." Like someone else mentioned. This could be considered a "vitamin aisle supplement." I've seen the benefits first hand of adding humates to a lawn. Since fulvic acid is merely a component of humates, it's hard for me to see how incorporating it into my program could be a bad idea.

As far as the product options out there go for vendors, I'm probably going to use "Fulvigain," from "Applied Ag Science."

phasthound
02-10-2008, 12:38 PM
The last lecture that was given at the UMASS winter turf school disscussed this theory and I say theory!! That was one thing that I found interesting about this professors lecture was stress on theory this would be benificial. If I am correct this in addion to adding humates to suppliment the soil, will increase the micro biology of the soil and will aid in the break down of organics into simple sugars to feed the turf. Once this is achieved you in most cases see the increase in the soil micro bio.
The way I understood it was that if you were to just add benficial microbs the popullation would intially stay high, but then die out rather fast because the soil can not suuport the population. Of course you could always go out and water your lawn with beer and that would support the microbs you added to the turf.
It is an intersting theory and by all points and should work to our benifit, I am not sure that we would see it on our level unless we walked around with a microscope. As I remember, though, the applications of insecticides do have an effect on the soil microbs so you woudl need it impliment this in an organic program.

This theory is being used in agricultural practice all over the world. Our university system is beginning to pick up on it. The Ohio State University and Cornell University have taken quite an interest in it. There are a numerous published studies about the impact of soil micro-organisms on plant health.

There are many ways to incorporate these methods with a good IPM program.

americanlawn
02-10-2008, 03:37 PM
Vic -- we use humic acid in our liquid (synthetic organic) fert. We used to add hydrocloric acid to our liquid fert about 20 years ago -- is this the same thing?

PHS
02-10-2008, 05:04 PM
phast, from your original post, My philosophy in agriculture is to use the whole compound wherever possible, not just parts or pieces. Sometimes the parts we leave behind have some real benefits

That's kinda how I look at it too I guess. I try to mulch, compost, and everything else and let nature take it's course from there. If humates and fluvic acid are by-products of decaying plant plant material then I figure they're probably being released into the soil already from the decomposition of lawn mulching, topdressing, etc. Maybe that's too much of a simple minded approach.

phasthound
02-10-2008, 08:17 PM
phast, from your original post,

That's kinda how I look at it too I guess. I try to mulch, compost, and everything else and let nature take it's course from there. If humates and fluvic acid are by-products of decaying plant plant material then I figure they're probably being released into the soil already from the decomposition of lawn mulching, topdressing, etc. Maybe that's too much of a simple minded approach.

I can't take credit for that quote, but it is how I feel.

In the world of having to please a client, specific materials may be a good way to speed things up.

boats47
02-11-2008, 11:36 AM
I would be interested in finding a source of supply for Fulvic Acid and try it on one of my baseball fields I maintain. If I am correct, Fulvic acid increase the bioavailability of important trace mineral found in the soil. It is also one of the most prevalent natural electrolytes out there and can essential repair damaged cell membranes and like I said before increase the plant efficiency in water and nutrient up-take.
I can defiantly see how this could really help in high traffic areas e.g. soccer, baseball, and football fields. Does anyone know any studies we could access and see the results on paper?

whoopassonthebluegrass
02-11-2008, 12:09 PM
Not to start something here, because it's not worth my time...

But when I was in school (5 years ago) we did research in my Turfgrass Mgmt class. We studied humates b/c a trend in this area has everyone requesting it.

At that time, there was no research that showed any recognizable benefit, excepting the small amount of fertilizer nutrients integrated within it. SNAKE OIL.

If there's quantifiable proof, I'm certainly willing/interested in taking a look. But from an unbiased, truth-searching study we did - there were no results that offered any sort of a concrete example of these products being more than hype.

boats47
02-11-2008, 12:33 PM
Whoo,
That was what I saying in one of first post about this subject and what the professor was saying and stressed during the lecture "THEORY". It seems to make sense looking at it scientifically, but would the results actually show up visually to a customer. It is probally next to impossible to sell something in our line of work that they can't see e.g. a dark green lawn that is weed free. Most customers won't care what happens on the microbiological level, much less pay extra for it.
Like said I and you said, if there concrete documented proof I'm in.

PHS
02-11-2008, 06:44 PM
I searched around a little bit to try and find some actual hard numbers on the benefits of some of these additives. Most of the actual measurable benefits seemed to revolve around sand based greens and sports fields, greenhouse trials and that sort of thing. In other words, soils with an exceptionally low organic content to them.

It looks to me like field soils tend to have a higher organic content to begin with so that's why there isn't much in the way of concrete results under normal field conditons. Here is a link, it's the only one I could find that answered my question about the typical amounts of humic substances found in soils and the amounts needed to produce results. I didn't read the entire thing execpt for a few pages above and below pg. 278.

http://books.google.com/books?id=u7Zqs-u91wcC&pg=PA278&lpg=PA278&dq=fulvic+acid+studies+on+turf&source=web&ots=3-RKkWKR-X&sig=1dG2MXEf9FRL0eGRL9h2Sg5pxMk