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View Full Version : Tencacity is approved, kind of!


FdLLawnMan
02-09-2008, 10:36 AM
There was some discussion earlier about a new product from Syngenta called Tenacity. You can apply it during seeding of most cool season grasses and it will control a wide spectrum of weeds. For now it is only approved for sod farms and athletic field grow ins. It is not approved for residential use. Syngenta doesn't know if they want to spend a million dollars to get it approved by the EPA.
I attended a turf seminar yesterday and the professor from the University of Wisconsin said he received the email reporting the label just received certification several days ago.
Rodney, I know you had plans to use a quite a bit of this but it looks like it will be a no go for now, at least on the residential lawns.

rcreech
02-09-2008, 11:15 AM
There was some discussion earlier about a new product from Syngenta called Tenacity. You can apply it during seeding of most cool season grasses and it will control a wide spectrum of weeds. For now it is only approved for sod farms and athletic field grow ins. It is not approved for residential use. Syngenta doesn't know if they want to spend a million dollars to get it approved by the EPA.
I attended a turf seminar yesterday and the professor from the University of Wisconsin said he received the email reporting the label just received certification several days ago.
Rodney, I know you had plans to use a quite a bit of this but it looks like it will be a no go for now, at least on the residential lawns.


Unfortunatly that is what I heard a few weeks ago on here! At the OTF they were very hopeful! Dang it!

Since we are "growing sod" on my customers.....and they have livestock (cats and dogs), would that be considered a "sod farm"? :laugh:

ted putnam
02-09-2008, 12:17 PM
Unfortunatly that is what I heard a few weeks ago on here! At the OTF they were very hopeful! Dang it!

Since we are "growing sod" on my customers.....and they have livestock (cats and dogs), would that be considered a "sod farm"? :laugh:

Only if my customers who have golf greens in their backyard count as athletic fields :laugh:

Whitey4
02-09-2008, 12:39 PM
What is the difference bewteen Tupersan (siduron) and Tenacity? Does it control more weeds, more effective or cheaper?

rcreech
02-09-2008, 02:39 PM
What is the difference bewteen Tupersan (siduron) and Tenacity? Does it control more weeds, more effective or cheaper?

IMO and many others, this will be the biggest product to hit the market! Broad spectrum of weed control and it can be used prior, during and after seeding with good seedling safety.

I am not familiar with Siduron (have heard of it, but have not used it)....but Tenacity is a newer chemistry (I have used in the ag market for about three years).

Mesotrione is the AI and it has both pre and post activity on most grasses and broadleaves. It's only drawback is on clover...but nothing a little Dicamba won't take care of!

VERY awesome product, but since it is a pigment inhibitor it turns the plants (weeds) WHITE! So one will want to educate the customer before using the product.

Other then that the product will be perfect for turf!

I am thinking about a way to spray a lawn and just call it an "off target application" or "drift".

I guess I would get in trouble for that also :cry:......so I will keep thinking! Way to good of a product to keep in the jug this year!

Whitey4
02-09-2008, 03:45 PM
Oh, OK, sounds like it can control more weed types than Tupersan. Is it a WP?

Grandview
02-09-2008, 03:52 PM
Rcreech. What is the ag side of Tenacity.

rcreech
02-09-2008, 05:30 PM
Rcreech. What is the ag side of Tenacity.


The ag side of Mesotrion is Callisto.

We put it down as a pre or early post on corn.

I actually use it as a premix which is called Lexar, which is basically Bicep II with Callisto added.

AWESOME PRODUCT!!!

Whitey4
02-09-2008, 05:52 PM
The ag side of Mesotrion is Callisto.

We put it down as a pre or early post on corn.

I actually use it as a premix which is called Lexar, which is basically Bicep II with Callisto added.

AWESOME PRODUCT!!!

They call it a post emerge, Rodney. The Tupersan is clearly and striclty a pre emerge. Sounds like this stuff will knock down weeds as they come up, not a root inhibitor. I wonder how well a Tupersan/Tenacity combo would work on springtime lawn replantings from seed. I won't do a total renovation from seed in the spring, I prefer the fall, but that combo could work extremely well in the spring I would think.

The problem with Tupersan is it's got a pretty narrow taget list... pretty much crabgrass and barnayrd grass... no dandelion, goosegrass, plaintain or chickweed control. I guess neither works on clover. Spring renovations from seed in the spring... man, that would be sweet.

rcreech
02-09-2008, 08:44 PM
They call it a post emerge, Rodney. The Tupersan is clearly and striclty a pre emerge. Sounds like this stuff will knock down weeds as they come up, not a root inhibitor. I wonder how well a Tupersan/Tenacity combo would work on springtime lawn replantings from seed. I won't do a total renovation from seed in the spring, I prefer the fall, but that combo could work extremely well in the spring I would think.

The problem with Tupersan is it's got a pretty narrow taget list... pretty much crabgrass and barnayrd grass... no dandelion, goosegrass, plaintain or chickweed control. I guess neither works on clover. Spring renovations from seed in the spring... man, that would be sweet.

You say "they" call it a post emerg, but you may want to look at this product a little closer.

It is a pre and post product. It will actually work as a PRE for crabgrass and many other weeds in turf.

Here is the info on Callisto which is the product for corn:

http://www.syngentacropprotection-us.com/prodrender/index.asp?nav=OVERVIEW&Prodid=761


Read the first sentence and you will see it is a pre and post!

redbuckcavs
02-09-2008, 11:19 PM
RC,

I enjoy reading your posts regarding the Ag side vs the turf side so what do you know in regards to Prowl (ag) vs Pendemethalin (turf). Ever since Dimension was introduced I've not used Pendemetalin due to the yellow staining-----Thank You

rcreech
02-09-2008, 11:44 PM
RC,

I enjoy reading your posts regarding the Ag side vs the turf side so what do you know in regards to Prowl (ag) vs Pendemethalin (turf). Ever since Dimension was introduced I've not used Pendemetalin due to the yellow staining-----Thank You


AAHHHHHHH the good ol'd days!

I hated using Prowl and Squadron! They were the best in their day though!

We ran case tractors (white) back in them days and they always had a "yellow tint" to them!

We have not used a pre in front of our beans since the mid 90's when RR beans came out, so it has been a while.

I go total post now with Gly only.

I use Dimension for my pre also. Like you, I hate staining my equipment, hands ect.

Whitey4
02-09-2008, 11:44 PM
Rodney, I am not challenging you on this at all... rather I want to understand better how it works. It inhibits carotinoid biosynthesis. And now I tread on thin ice, but making some assumptions, any control material that does this will not prevent emergence, but by flocking up a plant's ability to photosynthesize, will then attack the foliage, stem, root system and seed, as the plant can't absorb light energy, and light becomes what actually destroys the plant?

Sort of like a person born with no melatonin, the sun will cook their behinds.

So, if I understand this (and that is very questionable to say the least!), it isn't a root inhibitor like most pre-M's, it allows for the plant to reach sunlight, and then cooks it immediately. It is systemic, but doesn't work until breakthrough?

I am assuming it is called a pre-M because the chemical will penetrate seed and roots, but the AI doesn't do it's thing until it breaks. But the AI is in the seed and root, so it doesn't inhibit root development until light gets to the plant.

Sorry if I am being a PITA, I'm not trying to be! Tupersan like many other pre-M's is a root inhibitor, the plant never lives long enough to get to sunlight.

If I am to someday use Tenacity and Tupersan together, I want to know how each works, and if they could be complimentary. From what I think I know (LOL) I think they would be. From a link I found:


Herbicides that inhibit the bio synthesis of carotenoids may do so early in the isoprenoid biosynthetic pathway. An example is clomazone (Command) which inhibits isoprenoid biosynthesis at the level of isopentylpyrophosphate, at the very start of the pathway for carotenoid biosynthesis.

The effects are not specific to the production of carotenoids, but the mode of action results from photodynamic damage due to the inhibition of carotenoid biosynthesis. Photodynamic damage is cellular harm caused by absorption of light energy by a molecule unable to safely dissipate the energy. The pictures shown are corn and velvetleaf plants sprayed with Command herbicide. Notice the lack of pigmentation in the leaves. The inhibitor blocks production of carotenoids.

In the absence of carotenoids, chlorophyll molecules are much more susceptible to bleaching in sunlight. With no pigments, the plants cannot carry out photosynthesis and will die once reserves of energy in the seed are depleted.

http://plantandsoil.unl.edu/croptechnology2005/weed_science/?what=topicsD&informationModuleId=939154153&topicOrder=4&max=8&min=0&


So, do I have this right? :confused:

rcreech
02-10-2008, 12:02 AM
Rodney, I am not challenging you on this at all... rather I want to understand better how it works. It inhibits carotinoid biosynthesis. And now I tread on thin ice, but making some assumptions, any control material that does this will not prevent emergence, but by flocking up a plant's ability to photosynthesize, will then attack the foliage, stem, root system and seed, as the plant can't absorb light energy, and light becomes what actually destroys the plant?

Sort of like a person born with no melatonin, the sun will cook their behinds.

So, if I understand this (and that is very questionable to say the least!), it isn't a root inhibitor like most pre-M's, it allows for the plant to reach sunlight, and then cooks it immediately. It is systemic, but doesn't work until breakthrough?

I am assuming it is called a pre-M because the chemical will penetrate seed and roots, but the AI doesn't do it's thing until it breaks. But the AI is in the seed and root, so it doesn't inhibit root development until light gets to the plant.

Sorry if I am being a PITA, I'm not trying to be! Tupersan like many other pre-M's is a root inhibitor, the plant never lives long enough to get to sunlight.

If I am to someday use Tenacity and Tupersan together, I want to know how each works, and if they could be complimentary. From what I think I know (LOL) I think they would be. From a link I found:


Herbicides that inhibit the bio synthesis of carotenoids may do so early in the isoprenoid biosynthetic pathway. An example is clomazone (Command) which inhibits isoprenoid biosynthesis at the level of isopentylpyrophosphate, at the very start of the pathway for carotenoid biosynthesis.

The effects are not specific to the production of carotenoids, but the mode of action results from photodynamic damage due to the inhibition of carotenoid biosynthesis. Photodynamic damage is cellular harm caused by absorption of light energy by a molecule unable to safely dissipate the energy. The pictures shown are corn and velvetleaf plants sprayed with Command herbicide. Notice the lack of pigmentation in the leaves. The inhibitor blocks production of carotenoids.

In the absence of carotenoids, chlorophyll molecules are much more susceptible to bleaching in sunlight. With no pigments, the plants cannot carry out photosynthesis and will die once reserves of energy in the seed are depleted.

http://plantandsoil.unl.edu/croptechnology2005/weed_science/?what=topicsD&informationModuleId=939154153&topicOrder=4&max=8&min=0&


So, do I have this right? :confused:


I think you are on the money!

This product although it is a pigement inhibitor, does have a residual in teh SOIL, and once taken up by the plant roots once it emerges xylum up and done! Due to no photosyn, you are pretty much just starving the plant!

You're good!

Now if you look at Balance (which is also a pigment inhibitor) you will see that even though it is the same mode of action...the chemistry doesn't do as well as a pre. Every product is different. Here is a infield comparison of the 2 products.

http://weeds.cas.psu.edu/balance.html

Whitey4
02-10-2008, 12:07 AM
I think you are on the money!

This product although it is a pigement inhibitor, does have a residual in teh SOIL, and once taken up by the plant roots once it emerges xylum up and done! Due to no photosyn, you are pretty much just starving the plant!

You're good!

Now if you look at Command (which you talk about above and is also a pigment inhibitor) you will see that even though it is the same mode of action...the chemistry doesn't do as well as a pre. Every product is different. Here is a infield comparison of the 2 products.

http://weeds.cas.psu.edu/balance.html

Well, I'm tryin! I told you way back when.... using me for an example was a mistake! LOL! You have been a great help, Rodney.... and I am in your debt.

rcreech
02-10-2008, 12:13 AM
Well, I'm tryin! I told you way back when.... using me for an example was a mistake! LOL! You have been a great help, Rodney.... and I am in your debt.


:laugh:

You are kicking butt! Is this stuff fun or what?

redbuckcavs
02-10-2008, 12:29 PM
When treating a customers lawn the most important thing to remember is
***THE LABEL IS THE LAW****** however there are alot of the same products used in the AG industry that contain the exact same active ingredients as the products used in the turf industry, but the turf industry will pay twice as much!!!

If I tried to experince on my own lawn (would it be legal?)

1) What Liquid ag product could I use to prevent crabgrass

2) Instead of using liquid Triplet could I use the same 3 active ingredient to make my own "Triplet" ----Why use triplet on a weed free lawn (maybe 2,4,d only and add the other active ingredients on the lawns that are heavily infested with weeds (clover, ground Ivy, Thistles)

rcreech
02-10-2008, 01:25 PM
When treating a customers lawn the most important thing to remember is
***THE LABEL IS THE LAW****** however there are alot of the same products used in the AG industry that contain the exact same active ingredients as the products used in the turf industry, but the turf industry will pay twice as much!!!

If I tried to experince on my own lawn (would it be legal?)

1) What Liquid ag product could I use to prevent crabgrass

2) Instead of using liquid Triplet could I use the same 3 active ingredient to make my own "Triplet" ----Why use triplet on a weed free lawn (maybe 2,4,d only and add the other active ingredients on the lawns that are heavily infested with weeds (clover, ground Ivy, Thistles)

I agree totally!

If you would use Callisto on your lawn and experiment...it would still be off label. The question is....If you don't ever tell anyone is it legal? Get me?

I do go by the book...I am just saying that!

As far as "ag" products that control crab...again it will not be labeled for lawns so again, legal?

When I first started I looked at making my own Triplet, but it is much cheaper then buying all A/I seperately, and also you have a cosistent TURF product.

I see what you are saying though! I guess you could just use 2-4,D on "cleaner" lawns, but your cost/ac with 2-4,D is still going to be 60% of the cost of Three Way so you might as well just carry one inventory and always use it IMO.

What do you think?

redbuckcavs
02-10-2008, 04:22 PM
I have two trucks that will spray for weed control the sameday. My thinking was to use one truck '' in town'' and use only 2-4 D where I knew the weed pressure was low and use the other truck in my rural route and use "triplet mixture" on the accounts that only receive a few apps per year and will have higher weed pressure

rcreech
02-10-2008, 04:33 PM
I have two trucks that will spray for weed control the sameday. My thinking was to use one truck '' in town'' and use only 2-4 D where I knew the weed pressure was low and use the other truck in my rural route and use "triplet mixture" on the accounts that only receive a few apps per year and will have higher weed pressure

Sounds like you have a plan...but I will just tell you what usually happens to me!

I run Three Way and also spike it with a product called Quick Silver. I add Quick Silver to my mix to get the harder to control weeds that Three Way doesn't handle well such as Ground Ivy, Wild Violet etc.

I run it on almost every lawn, but sometimes I try and skip a lawn and not add it....what do you know, I end up seeing some Ivy or Violet and have to end up deadheading to the truck to add it to the tank.

So, very rarely do I not put it into the tank (plus it increases kill time also), so I don't even mess around anymore.

I guess long story short....what are you going to do when you are running your truck with 2-4,D and you start seeing clover and other weeds?

redbuckcavs
02-10-2008, 07:58 PM
With the fert prices extremley high I was thinking of other options to reduce cost without cutting back on the fert. In a perfect world I would use 2-4 D, in the spring to have "SOME" weed control and then apply a Full- Strength Triplet to completely clean out all weeds in the Fall

The more I think of my options I believe I better stick with the best fert and herbicide program and "ride out the storm" without damaging my reputation with my customers

profigala
02-18-2008, 07:01 PM
Any one have any idea as to when we will see this product hit the market?

tremor
02-18-2008, 07:34 PM
It takes out Bent which is GREAT news for Sod farms. Be nice to see home lawns too if Syngenta seeks that use.

http://www.cdms.net/LDat/ld8D9000.pdf