Sustainable Practices Part 1: The Big Picture

[Kiril]

Topics in this forum always seem to gravitate towards turf and compost tea. Given this is the only "sustainable" oriented forum on this website, I feel it is appropriate to begin a series of topics that addresses all aspects of sustainable landscape management.

This thread will be used to refine a list of the different aspects of landscapes and how they interact with each other. Following topics will dissect each of these areas in order to determine different approaches to management and solving common problems.

As a start I will suggest the following groups based on their potential for developing an independent management strategy for each. Please feel free to add to this list.

1) Soils
2) Water
3) Plants
4) IPM
5) Design
6) Wildlife

I think a good approach to this series of topics would be to spend at least 1 week discussing each area before moving onto the next. Once we have made it through all the areas, we can put together a final thread that brings it all together into a comprehensive multi-path management program that can be used as a guide for everyone from your homeowner to your golf course manager.

Please try to stay on topic and respect peoples opinions as this series is intended as a learning tool for everyone who visits this forum. Also, nothing is gained by posting inaccurate information, so please get your facts straight and speak up (in a non-adversarial way) if you see something that is not right.

I extend my thanks in advance to everyone who contributes to this series of threads.

[Newby08]

sounds good to me, I know I'll be checking in to see what has been posted.

[ICT Bill]

I'll assume the first topic will be on soils
There are obviously different soils in different areas, I am not a soil hydrologist or biologist. I have studied a little but I believe there is a designation for each type of soil starting at total sand and moving to total clay.
Does someone have those industry used terms or abbreviations? I think this would be a good start so that we can all be on the same page when discussing the different types of soils

[Newby08]

i don't know about any official terms but here in GA we call it "red clay." the name speaks for itself, it is red clay. It has all the characteristics of what you would think of the clay for making pots just not so goey. its kind of amazing if you stop and mess with it. I'd be really interested of course in what you have to say about it... drainage, etc.

Thanks

[ICT Bill]

Soils have a different mix of sand, loam and clay and there are industry terms for describing those conditions, I am just not familiar with them enough to speak out with any authority

[Kiril]

Soils have a different mix of sand, loam and clay and there are industry terms for describing those conditions, I am just not familiar with them enough to speak out with any authority

Yes, there is a specific naming convention used to describe a soil, but due to the complexity, I think it would be best to stay away from that. We can cover that in more detail in the soils section, and I will provide links for those who are interested in learning more about soil taxonomy.

If you want to describe just using the highest soil orders, then we have the following.

1) Alfisols
2) Andisols
3) Aridisols
4) Entisols
5) Gelisols
6) Histosols
7) Inceptisols
8) Mollisols
9) Oxisols
10) Spodosols
11) Ultisols
12) Vertisols

The Twelve Orders of Soil Taxonomy (ftp://ftp-fc.sc.egov.usda.gov/NSSC/Soil_Orders/orders_hi.pdf) (high res pdf of the below image)

[Kiril]

I'll assume the first topic will be on soils

Doesn't necessarily have to be. I tried to order the list based on importance, but one could argue that design belongs first. Any suggestions for reordering the list?

[Newby08]

I don't care about the order, all I ask is when you start using all the big scientific words you put the laments term in parenthesis next to it. Like with all those soy types... maybe a simpler description of what each one is. I take it that my "red clay" is a ultisol. what kind of soil is it that yall have in your areas?

[ICT Bill]

Thanks Kiril, I

would this be fair
simply: there is sand, loam and clay generally all soils are made up of some mix of these.

On the east coast most soils are clay with some loam and as you move towards the ocean they become more sandy. There are extreme with maine and NH areas having extremely rocky soils and in the far south, Florida having very sandy soils.

I am having a hard time trying to get the thrust of this going in the right direction.

Lets assume we are not talking about Ag applications and stick to what the forum is about LAWNS and LANDSCAPES

Some of the issues in our clay soils are acidic PH, compaction (rooting depth), water standing in the soil and becoming anaerobic, clay is excellent for lining ponds.

Someone help me with other issues in clay

[Newby08]

thats fine, i was just saying you guys can get some pretty big words goin sometimes. Do you what you want, I'll just do research to keep up. Lets me learn more. I have learned a ton as it is. Don't let me slow you down. What I was looking for was the affects of the different types of soil, clay soils dont have good drainage, they hold water to long, roots cant get deep due to compaction, and nutrients are all in the first few inches and deprived below that which I'm sure would lead to shallow root systems. I was just curious what soil conditions yall have to work with in your areas.

if i get to annoying just ignore me, I'll catch up.

[Kiril]

I am having a hard time trying to get the thrust of this going in the right direction.

This thread is only for discussion of the major areas that need addressing, and to determine the direction the future threads will take.

When a thread has run it's course (or 1 week later whichever comes first), then I will create a new thread. So next Saturday I will start a thread on soils. This way we have all the pertinent information in threads that are easy to find and not 20 pages deep in a single thread. Once we have discussed all the areas, then we can summarize all the important information discussed in a single thread.

I could create all the threads now, but I thought that might be to much and would tend to distract more than anything.

Lets assume we are not talking about Ag applications and stick to what the forum is about LAWNS and LANDSCAPES

Agreed. While the principals and practices are essentially the same, the program goals are not. For that reason the discussion should include everything except agriculture.

So with respect to the next thread, Soils, I am thinking there are some important divisions that we may want to treat as independent areas.

1) biological
2) mineral
3) general knowledge

The points you brought up I think would belong in general knowledge.

I'll also add that we should try to not get overly scientific with the discussion. I hope this will result in information that just about everyone can understand.

[Kiril]

there is sand, loam and clay generally all soils are made up of some mix of these.

Bill, the classification I think you are referring to here is texture classification.

[phasthound]

Bill, the classification I think you are referring to here is texture classification.

Count me in on these discussions also. For the record, I am pretty much self taught and tend to only follow what I find interesting. :rolleyes:

Soils are a good place to start, I know understanding soil structure is important, but it always put me to sleep. What woke me up was learning about how microbes are able to make dramatic changes in all aspects of soil and plant health.

The first time someone told me (almost 15 years ago) that you could reduce pesticide usage by working with soil microbes, I thought he was ought of his freakin' mind! Years later, it sunk in.

Anyway, I think soil structure is as good as any subject to start on.

So, Kiril are you going to tell us which University you teach in? :D

[growingdeeprootsorganicly]

good idea kiril and I agree with barry

If soil is the topic we need to talk about how organics can help affect soil structures and fertility and not get bogged down with heavy scientific terminology (even know I like reading some of that stuff) and concentrate on the real world common views of looking at soil like the texture classification pyramid kiril posted that way everybody is on the same page and we all can relate.

as long as that's out of the way and the posters can keep it interesting and pertaining to organics and their benefits to soil it might prove very insightful

I just want to add, maybe have 2 or 3 different topic posts running at the same time just to keep people thinking and interested at the same time.

hopefully we all might be able to concentrate talents and really move this organic sustainable idea forward:usflag:

[ICT Bill]

SUSTAINABLE PRACTICES

Lets try to define sustainable practices first.

I would think composting would rank right up there at the top as a practice. I have seen companies that, on a large scale, compost trees, leaves, crab shells, left over ckicks and chicken parts (don't ask its gross), ben and jerry's ice cream, municipal waste. Although there is a lot of fuel, time, money wasted in the process of composting, the final product employs local people and reduces waste into the landfill.

There are some that believe mining is not a sustainable practice. for instance using peat moss, the belief is that the destruction of the land produces a net negative impact. My thoughts are that deposits of ores and such should be used whether it is sustainable or not, I'll have to think that one over. I think it depends on the net impact gained or lost.

Do we need to use gasoline? right now, yes. Does it have a positive or negative net impact on society. UUHMMM It depends on which way you are looking at it. Is it sustainable long term? no

We use kelp a lot, would you consider harvesting kelp a sustainable practice? probably, because it something that you can regrow over and over again just like any other crop.

I'm trying to keep this aimed at lawn and landscape uses but my mind races off to solar, nuclear, wave power, steam from volcano's, etc.

I did meet a cool company recently that uses electric lawn mowers and their trailer has solar panels on top, so you pull the mower into the trailer and plug it in. Sounds sustainable to me, just the batteries need to be disposed of properly

Kiril, That chart is exactly what I was thinking about, thanks
and answer Barry's question please

[Smallaxe]

I can 'sustain' a shoreline that supports fish swimming about, by taking a few minutes to clean up the leaf litter and other debri each spring.
Can the planet 'sustain' the manufacturing of the plastic fork, that makes the job cost effective?
I'm with Bill and others in asking what is the definition of sustainable lawncare?
This type of learning environment can be fun :)

[growingdeeprootsorganicly]

In the wild native grasses and other plants and weeds sustain their own environment by dying of the top growth and top dressing them selves with their own self made compost and microbe activity and animal activity's helping that along with their poop and things, its a continuous cycle that nature has developed,

Now for us in our use of none native grasses in our pure stands of grass that we cut weekly and keep very unnatural, I think of sustainable lawn care as using sustainable things to keep them growing like compost(renewable) different ferts like fish, grains, kelp,
poop from many animals ete ete all those things are renewable and sustainable.

chem ferts are not sustainable they can run out and they don't contribute to the natural cycling of things.

I think people get confused when they hear sustainable lawn care cause the lawns we want will never be self sustaining like in the wild by them selves

sustainable lawn care is in the use of natural ,renewable ,sustainable materials to care for modern lawns that's the difference

[Smallaxe]

In the wild native grasses and other plants and weeds sustain their own environment by dying of the top growth and top dressing them selves with their own self made compost and microbe activity and animal activity's helping that along with their poop and things, its a continuous cycle that nature has developed,


That is about as complicated as it gets. It is really not that different if the grass grew tall and died back on itself - or - if the mower put the tops back on itself.

With the high grasses and the wetlands in pioneer times , Wisconsin was considered to be uninhabitable because of misquitoes etc. Now I can control the misqito population by how I manage my garden and the timing and height of the grass. Wood ticks too.

Lawns are more than luxuries for the rich and wasteful, it is a tool for sustaining an inhabitable spot on mother earth.

[growingdeeprootsorganicly]

small axe,
Im not sure what your your trying to say?
I though your question was to define sustainable lawn care? and what it was?

do you think if you just recycle grass clippings your are going to achieve the same sustainable diversity as nature does in the wild? especially since on home lawns there's only maybe a few types of grass growing? yes maybe you can achieve some natural cycling but your not going to get the most out of that lawn, it's going to still need out side input's.

I thought that was your question? what input's defined lawn care sustainability.

now mosquito back in the day have nothing to do with what we are talking about
and I fail to see your point about controlling them with grass height and timing, I thought mosquito's control had to do with water management, controlling stagnate water pools?

I don't know dude what your saying some times with your points and question?:dizzy:
maybe it's me? maybe it not? i'm not here for pissing matches it's just you confuse me sometimes:confused:

maybe you can clarify your points to me and your original question about what is the definition of sustainable lawn care?

remember the things I say are just my opinion

[phasthound]

If I may make a suggestion; this is a lawn care forum so it might be best to limit the discussion to maintaining suburban lawns in ways that reduce the negative environmental impacts of the conventional methods.

The issue of sustainability is a diverse conversation that can go in a number of directions, as Bill pointed out. Do we need to define this or would we best be served by assuming those who are interested in this discussion are willing to agree that there are varying degrees of sustainability and we need to strive for ways to implement them?

Let's take things one step at a time.

[DUSTYCEDAR]

i am for keeping it on lawn care and what we can do to limit synthetic inputs

[ICT Bill]

So if we accept the premise that inputs (I think this really defines what we are talking about right now, sustainable inputs) that are grown are sustainable, example: Kelp, alfalfa, soy, fish, corn, then we can produce a crop, TURF, and use these products to support the individual grass plants or lawn.
Compost is a by byproduct of waste but I believe a sustainable input

What we have not decided is whether mining a product is sustainable. I would assume that any mined product would eventually be tapped out and unavailable after a certain time just like oil. I'm mixed on this, there are some great mined minerals out there that are great for soil fertility

[Kiril]

I'll throw in my 2 cents here.

When I think sustainable, I try to think about the big picture. ;)

Lets take a generic site, with a structure(s), hardscape, and landscape.

I see this site as a system, inside of a bigger system (neighborhood), inside another system (city or township), inside an even bigger system (region), and so on. The pieces of each system have to work with each other and the other systems in order to achieve some type of sustainability on a large scale.

So let's break it down for a residential property.

I take a piece of land, essentially destroy it, and build a house on it. Now I have a structure(s), but I need a landscape that is pleasing to the eye. I look at the site and I try to envision the landscape as an extension of the structure (just another room(s)), and then look at what was there before (nature), and try to integrate the two into a functional design. In order for the site to be sustainable, the landscape needs to work with the structure to enhance it's sustainability. A couple of examples.

1) Planting trees in appropriate places to provide shading during summer heat is a sustainable for both house and landscape.

2) Prevent wetting the structure with irrigation

3) Use hardscape designs that allow for on site waste water management.

4) Use on site methods to dispose (and use) gray water.


The LEED Program (http://www.usgbc.org/DisplayPage.aspx?CategoryID=19) does a fairly good job at laying down the basics for this.


So now we have some landscape design that works with the structure, but what about nature? When we leveled the site we essentially destroyed the natural habitat and replaced it with a very inhospitable habitat. To mitigate this impact we design our landscape to restore some of the habitat that was lost, which at least in part, helps to maintain the regional ecosystem.

This landscape would be regionally appropriate, using native plants, or at least plants that are adapted to the region. We can have lawn where it will be used, however careful consideration has to be given to size of this lawn. Ideally, the landscape (with respect to water) needs to sustain itself with what is available via rain and gray water sources.

Ideally, this landscape would also be designed in a fashion that minimizes inputs (material and labor), and the inputs that are needed can be generated on site or from regional sources.

The issues extend further than the above, but you get the idea. All the pieces need to work and fit together in order to see and achieve the big picture.

You may ask, well how is this appropriate to this discussion?

* Most LCO's and homeowners care for the entire landscape, not a single portion of it.

* With new landscapes, if we begin with a sustainable design, we should end with one.

* When existing landscapes are renovated/redesigned this "sustainable" ideology needs to be considered.

* When we are maintaining existing landscapes, we can move the entire system closer to a self-sustaining system by the practices we employ.

While I agree with Bill that mining is an unfortunate necessity, I simply can't rationalize in my mind growing/mining natural resources from one location, and shipping them to another location for use as a soil amendment/fertilizer. This once again is part of the big picture. Even if the end practice is "sustainable", if the path traveled to get there is not, you gain nothing. It may even lead to a net loss (eg. the cost outweighs the benefit).

Anyhow, there are obviously some issues that need to be addressed, but I agree that finding a way to keep green waste out of landfills and instead, compost and return it to the soils, is a big step in the right direction.

Barry, Bill -> I don't teach at any schools. The only affiliation I have with a University is that I attended one, and that I live in a region which has alot of them. ;)

[growingdeeprootsorganicly]

kiril,
I'm taking gray water to mean waste water from the house?

if that's the case we all have to be on the same page as far as what resources are available to us to use and is the site entirely reliant on supporting it's self from things we obtain from it to recycle there. with no out side source's? the house would have to be set up to begin with to handle the used water. With all the parameters set we could come up with ecological solutions to those problems and make that property TOTALLY self sustaining.
keeping that in mind,

my thought of sustainable lawn care was that we discuss a traditional house landscape and the tactics to make it as safe as possible for the family and replace the harmful practices with more natural sustainable ones so they don't leave a impact on the environment and still keep a real nice landscape.

I'm game to discuss both since I probably won't design a totally pure sustaining property( though it would be fun) The customers I plan on servicing will probably just want to keep their yard safe for their family and have a nice lush lawn and pretty trees and shrubs, and leave as little a imprint on society trying to achieve that. That's the people we need to talk about cause the more of them we have the better off the environment will be.

I don't think many people will retro fit their houses pluming systems and invest that type of money to go truly green, It would be great if every body did but I'm more worried about people just stopping their use of traditional practices, that's first on my mind.

once that happens maybe they will be willing to go further

[Kiril]

I'm taking gray water to mean waste water from the house?

Gray water (or non-potable) is basically anything that is not sewage (toilet waste). Using gray water doesn't necessarily have to happen on a per house basis. Some cities have gray water systems already in place. Using it would simply require tapping into the cities gray water line for landscape use. It is commercial properties and rural areas where I think a per site system would be best suited. I also believe that using gray water and sustainable/organic management of soils go hand in hand.

if that's the case we all have to be on the same page as far as what resources are available to us to use and is the site entirely reliant on supporting it's self from things we obtain from it to recycle there. with no out side source's? the house would have to be set up to begin with to handle the used water. With all the parameters set we could come up with ecological solutions to those problems and make that property TOTALLY self sustaining.

I wouldn't expect everyone to move in the direction of "off the grid" sites, but that would be the ultimate goal. I think a good start is to move a city/town in a direction that supports sustainable practices first, by using materials in landscapes that are available locally (eg. compost).

A bit off topic, but an interesting discussion was brought up in one of the list servers I subscribe to pertaining to sustainable development. The discussion was over scattered/isolated housing vs. high density house. I believe the general attitude was high density housing is more sustainable than the alternative.

my thought of sustainable lawn care was that we discuss a traditional house landscape and the tactics to make it as safe as possible for the family and replace the harmful practices with more natural sustainable ones so they don't leave a impact on the environment and still keep a real nice landscape.

I prefer to look at it as sustainable landscape care, but you have the gist of it. :) Manage/design sites in a way that promotes self-sustainability while still providing for the needs of the site owner(s).

I'm game to discuss both since I probably won't design a totally pure sustaining property( though it would be fun) The customers I plan on servicing will probably just want to keep their yard safe for their family and have a nice lush lawn and pretty trees and shrubs, and leave as little a imprint on society trying to achieve that. That's the people we need to talk about cause the more of them we have the better off the environment will be.

My goal with these threads is to provide different alternatives to common problems, gain insight into different perspectives and approaches based on regions people live in, and to provide a general base of working knowledge which can be used in any organic program.

[growingdeeprootsorganicly]

I just thought I'd add this too, all of us on this site have different back grounds and different goals using these type of practices,

It just gets confusing some times, cause for me I look at it in terms of providing service(full service maintenance) to people who don't want or know how to do their own work and to bring awareness of the poisoning going on in our society today, that's how I plan on making my living.

another guy on here might just want to figure out how to take care of his own lawn and property and another guy might be just adding his own two cents for what ever reason he has.

We all have different motivations for using these practices but what we all do have in common is we care about the environment, and hopefully we can work together to figure out some of these common problems.

and come up with viable solutions to these things in a common sense way that everybody can relate too

[Smallaxe]

small axe,
Im not sure what your your trying to say?
I though your question was to define sustainable lawn care? and what it was?

do you think if you just recycle grass clippings your are going to achieve the same sustainable diversity as nature does in the wild? especially since on home lawns there's only maybe a few types of grass growing? yes maybe you can achieve some natural cycling but your not going to get the most out of that lawn, it's going to still need out side input's.

I thought that was your question? what input's defined lawn care sustainability.

now mosquito back in the day have nothing to do with what we are talking about
and I fail to see your point about controlling them with grass height and timing, I thought mosquito's control had to do with water management, controlling stagnate water pools?

I don't know dude what your saying some times with your points and question?:dizzy:
maybe it's me? maybe it not? i'm not here for pissing matches it's just you confuse me sometimes:confused:

maybe you can clarify your points to me and your original question about what is the definition of sustainable lawn care?

remember the things I say are just my opinion

Sorry I am not trying to p$$ off anyone. That takes the fun out of things.
Sustainability definition is what I was hoping for and the human's place in the system.

Here in rural Wisconsin we have had 'sustainable' lawns for longer than my life time. Unless you count human energy as an input. Mowing it is also keeping the brush from encroaching.(or-Does my lawn have to have alot of other crap growing in it to meet a "bio-diversity" clause of the definition of sustainabiliy?) I am asking, not being confrontational.

As farmers we did not waste resourses, time, or energy on the lawn. There are sections of the lawn on our family farm that has no weeds even because the grass is too thick, zero input since the beginning.
No one can claim a healthier or nicer lawn no matter how much they spent on it. Wisconsin summers turn it brown more often than not, but it is green under 2 feet of snow right now at 18 below 0 F. Many lawns are so dependant, on huge inputs, that they would die rather than go dormant during the summer heat.

Misquitos will hatch anywhere after a rainstorm and they seem to be hiding in the shade of the grass blades during the early morning stroll through the garden. Mow it shorter at that time - because there is obviously enough moisture to make misquitoes comfortable. Next morning they are less of a problem and sometimes completely gone.

We let it grow taller when the sun get high and bakes the lawn enough that misquitos avoid the area. Then we avoid cutting at all if it looks like it may go into the brown period.
We could mow to please the neighbors but the misquitos and other vermin pretty much set the timing for mowing lawn :)

So I hope you don't think I was talking smack - and if human input makes anything "unsustainable" I would like that clarified early on. thanks.
Jerry Garcia, isn't it?

[ICT Bill]

Looks like Mr. deadhead to me. I have seen them play many times, good memories.

Axe, I think the theme here is do what you have to do and even make it up as you go. I don't think the mood of the conversation is where anyone is trying to tell anyone how to reach certain goals in the landscape. Every site has specific issues to that site. Mow or grow whatever you like

Kiril, there is a great paper out there that is looking for input, www.sustainablesites.org

OK so we have a short list of inputs/practices that are sustainable. Some are better choices than others long term
Compost
Native low maintenance plants
grown crops as inputs (alfalfa, kelp, etc.)
Cisterns and/or grey water
minimize the use of water/nutrient hungry plants
anymore?

If we are assuming lawn maintenance here, what about minimizing the impact or sustainable use of mowers, blowers, edgers, etc

[DUSTYCEDAR]

suburban America wants a nice lawn for the most part and they want to keep up with the Jones at all cost.
now if we can do it in a more green way i am all for it.
could we could talk about in at least one section of this discussion.
i dont have any problem with other areas talking about electric mowers or less mowing and such but could we divide it up so we all dont have to step on each others views?
thanks dusty

[ICT Bill]

As a start I will suggest the following groups based on their potential for developing an independent management strategy for each. Please feel free to add to this list.

1) Soils
2) Water
3) Plants
4) IPM
5) Design
6) Wildlife

I think a good approach to this series of topics would be to spend at least 1 week discussing each area before moving onto the next.

If we stick to the theme of the thread we hopefully will get to all aspects of the industry and then some
I felt it was important to define sustainable inputs first, but that was just me

[Kiril]

If we stick to the theme of the thread we hopefully will get to all aspects of the industry and then some
I felt it was important to define sustainable inputs first, but that was just me

I agree. It is difficult to proceed forward if we don't have a working definition of what we are trying to accomplish.

Dusty, I hope to keep the discussion general enough so the information can be used in any aspect of landscaping, but still detailed enough to know how one might modify the information to suit a site.

[growingdeeprootsorganicly]

[QUOTE=Kiril;2146942]I agree. It is difficult to proceed forward if we don't have a working definition of what we are trying to accomplish.


Yes we have to do this first. I think we all have a pretty good idea what those sustainable thing are, any thing natural and renewable.
of of course obtaining these things can cause impact sometimes, we probably will never be able to completely not leave any foot prints doing these things.

we all drive cars, we use machines to harvest these things and move them around, hopefully in the future technology will help us break our dependence on oil.

we should concentrate on the ways we can give society a blue print on natural property care, meaning the best ways to care for lawn and landscaping with out chemicals and still deliver value and quility.

The things we talk about should also relate to the farm and garden guys as well and not just the professional turf and landscape guys

I personally take many cues from agriculture, they have figured out many problems long before any lawn pro's have.

one last thing, No one can change the world over night, but if we can get people to realize that you don't need chemicails to have a nice lawn.
that's good a place as anyware to start helping the earth:usflag:

[Kiril]

May be of interest to some people.

The Urban Natural Resources Institute (http://www.unri.org/) has monthly informational webcasts. One that is coming up in a couple of days addresses Finding Markets for Urban Wood Waste. Check out the 2008 Webcast schedule below.

http://www.unri.org/learning/web/2008_wecast_poster.pdf

[treegal1]

phama what in the water????? holy cow what have we done??? some days I look at the brown water that comes from my wells and think back to my childhood when we drank from these wells, then look down at the health department red sticker on the well pipe that reads, NOT POTABLE, and just want to cry. last test had PEK high sulfur and was loaded with metals, the farm well was almost as bad!!!! where we used to water the whole farm at once we now have to filter the water and only water small parts at once or just dont water at all.

http://www.unri.org/news/january-webcast-features-pharmaceuticals-and-water-quality-january-21-1100-am-eastern/

its the standard head in the sand role that some use to justify what we do in the name of organics and totally bypass the real issue that these practices embody.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnLvP57UWh8&feature=related

please don't mind the pro US spin that they put on this. you have to be there to understand..............