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View Full Version : What chems can i use in the same tank?


Newby08
02-09-2008, 12:24 PM
Starting a new chemical business and am wanting to know what chems I can use out of the same tanks. I take it Herbicides need their own, but what others need to be separated or can be joined? Maybe not joined but not have to worry so much about residues mixing.

JoeinJasper
02-09-2008, 12:40 PM
I hate to be the first to ask - but are you licensed? If not, then you need to talk to the county agent for the proper study material and testing information. A license is required ( as well as some basic knowledge ) in order to apply pesticides of any type. Joe

Newby08
02-09-2008, 12:46 PM
I'm half way there. I am actually trying to aim more toward organics but I will need the regular synthetics to get some jobs done. I've been in the landscape business for about 5 years now I just never messed with chemicals much.
I'm surprised no one else has brought that up yet as far as being licensed.

JoeinJasper
02-09-2008, 01:04 PM
The USDA requires a license to apply any type of pesticide 'for hire', this includes organics as well as 'chemicals'. The study material and the test deal with safe handling and use of the product as well as specific chemical recommendations and uses. This license is a USDA requirement, not a state or local government issue. The Cherokee county co operative extention agent can set you up. Also see the 'sticky' in this forum. Joe

Newby08
02-09-2008, 01:09 PM
yeah, i got all the material already and in the process of studying. Its kind of frustrating cause it has so much about farming in it. The books alot bigger than i thought it would be too

rcreech
02-09-2008, 01:47 PM
yeah, i got all the material already and in the process of studying. Its kind of frustrating cause it has so much about farming in it. The books alot bigger than i thought it would be too

You will need to know a lot more then is just in the books but that is a start!

Read and study as much as you can. Understanding the turf industry is just a start. You will want to KNOW and UNDERSTAND every product you use, how to use it and why.

Once you know all this you will understand what you can share tanks for and what you can't.

If you do something wrong in this business it can cost you $1000's of dollars so be careful and know what you are doing before you start!

There is much more to it then most think!

ACA L&L
02-09-2008, 02:00 PM
Some of the guys round here are offering free fert and sprying of trees and shrubs with a yearly contract. There are only a handful of ag guys here and they are more concerned with the japanese beetle. After talking with one of these really smart guys (haha) there thinking is that since they dont charge for it directly they are clear of needing a license to apply chemicals. One of these guys bought a skid sprayer, its like the wild west all over again. :hammerhead:

RigglePLC
02-09-2008, 08:05 PM
Newby,
sorry to say, but the books don't cover what you can mix and what you can't. Chemical companies do not generally say if someone else's product can be mixed with theirs. You need to ferret out the information from chemical dealers and experienced people. You may need to experiment--on your own lawn of course.

However, herbicides can usually be mixed in the tank with water and with liquid fertilizer. If you drain the tank and want to change to fungicide or insecticide it usually works fine--on grass (only).

However herbicides contaminate a tank and hose--so that it is very risky to spray trees or bushes using the same equipment used to spray turf weeds. Very difficult to clean it out completely, and some types of trees are very sensitive--redbud and grapevines to name two.

txgrassguy
02-09-2008, 08:12 PM
I understand that someone has to start somewhere - but Jesus H Christ - read the FREAKIN LABEL - it tells all about compatibility and tank mixes.
And what is "I'm half way there"? Bull.
Either you are licensed or not.
Take the time to read a pesticide label - essentially all the information you need is contained in those 3 -6 pages of information.

Newby08
02-09-2008, 08:37 PM
bad day tx? Half way there means I'm halfway finished studying to take the test. Your right everyone has to start somewhere and you had to be here where I'm at with all of this at some point in time to. I wasn't meaning a specific chemical with another specific chemical either. What I was asking was what Riggle was getting at. Whether you are able to use herbicides in a tank and then switch over to ferts without the residual herbicides causing problems. Same question with pesticides and fungicides.

Chill out man...

Thanks for the help Riggle.

txgrassguy
02-10-2008, 10:23 AM
Newby, once again - read the label.
What you are asking for is not available to be answered by one person simply due to the immense amount of variables associated with chemical types, modes of actions, climatic conditions, plant variatials and a sundry amount of other variables unique to your application.
And, no, I didn't have a bad day.
You are yet again another classic example of a person whom has no concept of chemicals, plant types, modes of actions, etc and is approaching a field of work woefully under prepared. Being licensed means diddle squat, learn the actual chemical, mode of action, the use, the plant use and most importantly - read the label.
I do not blame you completely for being under prepared as what ever state agency is testing you obviously has short standards. Yet what aggravates me is when alleged licensed pesticide applicators are using material they have no idea on how it operates, on plants they have no idea how they imbibe chemicals, charge people for this lack of knowledge then have accidents that raises my insurance rates.

HenryB
02-10-2008, 10:35 AM
Newby most guys are terrified of new competitors hence the hostility. You can purchase tank cleaners from Lesco etc. I've used them with every product I can think of never had any phototoxicity or other problems.
Best of luck with the exam.

Ric
02-10-2008, 11:01 AM
Newby, once again - read the label.
What you are asking for is not available to be answered by one person simply due to the immense amount of variables associated with chemical types, modes of actions, climatic conditions, plant variatials and a sundry amount of other variables unique to your application.
And, no, I didn't have a bad day.
You are yet again another classic example of a person whom has no concept of chemicals, plant types, modes of actions, etc and is approaching a field of work woefully under prepared. Being licensed means diddle squat, learn the actual chemical, mode of action, the use, the plant use and most importantly - read the label.
I do not blame you completely for being under prepared as what ever state agency is testing you obviously has short standards. Yet what aggravates me is when alleged licensed pesticide applicators are using material they have no idea on how it operates, on plants they have no idea how they imbibe chemicals, charge people for this lack of knowledge then have accidents that raises my insurance rates.


Txgrassguy

Can't you guys just open the top of my head and pour the knowledge in?? I am too lazy to read old thread here at Lawsite or books on the subject. Oh forget it, I will just go to Lesco and the guy behind the counter used to work at Home Depot in the Fert Section, He'll tell me what to buy.

Whitey4
02-10-2008, 11:02 AM
Newby, everyone starts somewhere. I only just got certified, and am waiting for my state pesticide registration to come back. But, txgrassguy has some points not to be taken lightly.

The question you asked is not a good question to ask at this point. If you are going to get started, you need to keep your applications very simple. Crawl, then walk before you run. I would strongly suggest joining your local turf or LCO association. There you can get sound advice for setting up a simple, safe standard program (after of course all the certs and stuff are aquired, which will take some time).

Even thinking about mixes is far too premature for you at this point. That is why you got your chit jumped on. At this point, you don't realise just how much there is to learn. It will take even the smartest most studious people at least a year before they can start cutomizing with mixes and whatnot.

There are enough products out there that will do the job without getting creative with chemicals. Know what your limitations are and stay within them. You can start with a simple per-emergent/fert app in the spring, do some spot spraying, learn to know why, how, when and IF you should use any insecticides.

You likely won't be legal until at least mid-summer anyway, at the earliest. I'd also suggest taking a course... your local association should be able to help you select one. Why do some people get upset? When pesticides are mis-applied, that can lead to restrictions and prohibitions on their use. There ARE far too many people out there doing apps that don't know what they are doing.

boats47
02-10-2008, 11:20 AM
You should never share the same tank you spray herbicide with, with a tank you spray turf with for weed control. Keep a separate tank for eveything, because things you can spray on a lawn will defoliate a tree or shrub (if you get into that). I have a tank for non-selective herbicide, a tank for selective herbicide, and a split tank for tree application. Sounds like alot, but using same tanks is to risky (even cleaning with it Lesco sol).

Newby08
02-10-2008, 11:32 AM
OK, thanks for all the concerns and advice. I understand I don't have nearly all the questions answered and probably never will. I understand that I am new at this and am wanting to do it right. That is why I put the name on here that I did... Newby, because I am a newby when it comes to chemicals. I plan on using organics for the most part and only a few select herbicides when absolutely neccessary. The question I was asking was not intended to be applied to mixing chemicals with chemicals it was more along the lines of what Boats was saying. Nonselect herbs and select herbs he says do not use the same tank. I don't want to mess with mixing any chemicals now. I was just asking if the residues of herbicides would affect the lawn if I cleaned it out and put a liquid fert in it like a compost tea or something. Thats all. Yall are getting to fancy for what I was asking and I don't plan on using any chemicals without knowing the side effects of them. Like I said, I'm new at this and I know a lot of things can go wrong which is why I'm asking so many questions and plan on asking more. I want to start slow and work my way through it with the help of you more experienced people. I'm not just going to go out and throw chemicals on the ground and hope a green turf shows up by chance.

Again, thanks for all the input any input is beneficial even if it is the kind where it seems im getting my chit kicked.

Adam


-Life is good.-

Victor
02-10-2008, 11:49 AM
Once you do get to the point where you are ready to start mixing products, the best way to determine their compatibility, is to do a "jar test." You'll read about how to do a jar test in your study materials. The jar test will tell you if your products are compatible.

rcreech
02-10-2008, 12:39 PM
Once you do get to the point where you are ready to start mixing products, the best way to determine their compatibility, is to do a "jar test." You'll read about how to do a jar test in your study materials. The jar test will tell you if your products are compatible.

Txgrassguy,

You are 100% correct! Totally correct...and exactly on it!

Henry B,

I only go one thing to say....:laugh: I don't worry at all about competition...especially the new guys! Knowledge and experience gets you much farther then price in most instances. Customers see that!

Ric,

So true! That is hilarious!

Adam (Newby),

Study, learn, study learn! Read Txgrassguys comments and know all that and you will be able to answer your own questions. You really need to know all of that!

I would never recommend sharing any tanks for products! Even if Lesco has a tank cleaner....it is VERY hard to clean a tank and lines that good.

If you spray a lawn... then "clean" it out and then go spray tress, shrubs and or ornamental beds etc.....GET OUT YOUR CHECKBOOK!

Rayholio
02-10-2008, 12:51 PM
Yeah... unfortunately, this is a very revealing question...

you can't be studying that hard or would have allready read about this.. The Jar test is the ony way (unless covered in the labeling) to tell if 2 or more chems are compatable..

Keep studying bro... if you have a question about 2 specific chems, ask away... someone here may have allready done the testing...

Newby08
02-10-2008, 02:10 PM
what don't you understand? I've already read about the jar test and understand that. What I was asking was if you had a herbicide in your tank and was needing to spray a fertilizer or insecticide, etc, then do you need to use a new tank or can you clean and reuse the same tank. Lets say the chemicals can mix no problem and all that other stuff.

I would never recommend sharing any tanks for products! Even if Lesco has a tank cleaner....it is VERY hard to clean a tank and lines that good.

That is the answer I was looking for. I'm trying not to be rude or anything but yall are jumpin all over me for a very simple question.

Midstate Lawncare
02-10-2008, 02:27 PM
what don't you understand? I've already read about the jar test and understand that. What I was asking was if you had a herbicide in your tank and was needing to spray a fertilizer or insecticide, etc, then do you need to use a new tank or can you clean and reuse the same tank. Lets say the chemicals can mix no problem and all that other stuff.

I would never recommend sharing any tanks for products! Even if Lesco has a tank cleaner....it is VERY hard to clean a tank and lines that good.

That is the answer I was looking for. I'm trying not to be rude or anything but yall are jumpin all over me for a very simple question.

Hi newby08, My name is Nate. Illinois deapartment of agriculture Applicator's license, Turf, Ornamentals, Right-Of-Way and Mosquito sub categories. I have 5 years experience.... and I am still learning. My best advice is Read labels 'til you can't see anymore, pick the lesco guy's brain and anyone who has more than 4 years experience.(journeyman) If you don't know EXACTLY what you are doing, and EXACTLY how to do it DON'T DO IT!!!! You can do some serious damage with the chemicals we use. Read every chemical label you can get your hands on, and it will say on the label if it is mixable with other chemicals. I would like to think I know somthing about what I am doing, but I still spend half of every winter reading and learning more about the chemicals. If you need somthing else, or have questions, you can pm me. I would rather help you than see you kill a rose by putting the wrong insecticide on it. Hope I helped.

Newby08
02-10-2008, 02:35 PM
sounds good, I don't plan on killing anything or using any chemicals that I don't know how to use. I do know that I don't know hardly a thing about all of this. I have been more focused on the organics than I have the synthetic chemicals because that is what I plan on using. I also do know that you all know a whole lot more than me on all of this and I have a lot of respect for all of you. I hope I didn't and don't come off as a new little prick who thanks he knows all and will be out there throwing chems on everything and not do any research before I perform any work. All I ask is that if there is a question that I have that it be answered... that is the whole point of this forum correct? I've met a lot of great guys on here and appoligize if I have come off in a bad way to anyone. The whole reason I'm on here is to learn more about this subject so that I can perform the job correctly and take care of any customers I have in the future.

thanks

Whitey4
02-10-2008, 03:12 PM
Newby08, don't sweat it. I got run through when I arrived here a few months ago myself! Well, a little bit, anyways.

If you are going to go with mostly organics, you might think about just using backpack sprayers unless you have some very large properties. Sure, it's slow, and there are those here who would scoff at the notion, but it's a way to get started without creating a lot of overhead. It works for me even long term, because I only do small residential properties... 3,4 maybe 5k of turf each. Like you, I am an LCO, but want to offer all services, apps, plantings, maintenance. I may only handle chemicals 10 times in a season. I don't need the heavy artillery most of these guys use. Nor do I have the storage space for such a big spray operation. I also use granular whenever I can, but using spray application systems can't be avoided either.

I think you have the right idea, sounds like you are an IPM man, or at least buy into it as a strategy. As an LCO, that is the backbone of my business plan. I still get flamed once in a while... doesn't bother me much. Small price to pay for the accumulated experience and knowledge here. Good luck.

Rayholio
02-10-2008, 04:46 PM
You know.. When it comes to rinsing out your tank, it's really going to be common sense + experience... For example, If you have a herbicide in your tank, and you need to spray insecticide on some bushes, you need to clean out your tank pretty good..

If you have insecticide in your tank, and you need to spray weeds, then you're probably safe... but maybe not legal, depending...

Just always be aware what target, and Non-target pests could be affected.. some times a much smaller dose of active ingrediant can still have an effect... best rule of thumb is to assume every chem that has touched your tank since the last rinse will have FULL effect...

Newby08
02-11-2008, 06:55 AM
what do you mean by target and non target?

Newby08
02-11-2008, 06:56 AM
that was a joke.

HAHA. Funny Funny.

Midstate Lawncare
02-11-2008, 08:27 AM
You wouldn't believe how many "spray monkeys" are out there that are licensed and can't answer that question.

boats47
02-11-2008, 10:16 AM
Newby08,
If you have not realized yet there is probationary period on this site where everyone tools on you until that one day when the eternal ice cream in the sky melts away and dogs and cats start living togeather in perfect harmony....BLABLA... Then and only then you will start with the sarcastic comments towards the NOOB.
We were all there at some point in history and its all good, keep asking the questions and learn from our mistakes and trust me I am sure we have all made them.

Jason Rose
02-11-2008, 10:44 AM
When I started out this is something I really never thought of... I was under the assumption that if I had rinsed the tank really well and flushed the hose out then the new mix I put in the tank would just dilute whatever I had in there (any tiny bit that was left even after rinsing) down to nothing that would harm anything. I never thought that the poly tank and rubber hose would absorb chemicals, especially things like 2-4D, Glyphosphate, or soil sterilants. And that other chemicals in the tank could actually leech those absorbed chemicals out of the poly and back into my new mix...

1. It's a good thing I never did any tree and shrub spraying before I learned this...
2. No, I've never killed or burned any plants since then. I HAVE used my lawn tank for spraying bagworms on evergreens, I used the tank nutrilizer/cleaner first, then just had to hope like hell that it was clean...
3. Don't do that!

I actually don't recall who told me or where I read that the tanks can't ever be totally "cleaned" after having herbicides in them (cleaned well enough to 100% trust them for spraying other things). But I'm pretty sure it wasn't in my pesticide manuals. That was 10 years ago now...

Like has already been beat to death here, there's a lot to learn with chemicals other than what's in the test and study books. Real world experience and getting tips from a long time Pro. that you trust will teach you more than a book can. Of course the labels help too, lol.

txgrassguy
02-11-2008, 11:20 AM
I would never recommend sharing any tanks for products! Even if Lesco has a tank cleaner....it is VERY hard to clean a tank and lines that good.

Not true.
Once you understand even a modicum of chemistry, the proper cleaning of a spray tank is not only easy, when done properly there are no off-target effects.
I have been in this industry for approaching twenty years and have worked with both C3 and C4 turfgrasses at a multitude of sites.
I have never had an off-target effect and I have used primarily one rig for all of my applications.
Learn how the different pumps work, know your equipment, know your chemicals and you won't have a problem.

HenryB
02-11-2008, 11:50 AM
I would never recommend sharing any tanks for products! Even if Lesco has a tank cleaner....it is VERY hard to clean a tank and lines that good.

Not true.
Once you understand even a modicum of chemistry, the proper cleaning of a spray tank is not only easy, when done properly there are no off-target effects.
I have been in this industry for approaching twenty years and have worked with both C3 and C4 turfgrasses at a multitude of sites.
I have never had an off-target effect and I have used primarily one rig for all of my applications.
Learn how the different pumps work, know your equipment, know your chemicals and you won't have a problem.

I was going to say the same thing but you beat me too it. Well said. I've used one tank for all apps. Never I'll repeat ever have I had a problem. Where do you guys get your info? Guys who sell tank sprayers?:dizzy: Your lucky if 2-4d kills a dandelion let alone a tree:laugh: The big feared Glyphosphate (round up) was originally a PGR. Lots of fear on here.

Newby08
02-11-2008, 01:51 PM
Until I know exactly what I'm doing, which I'm pretty sure will be a very long time from now, I think I'll stick to the better safe than sorry idea.

ATVracer
02-11-2008, 02:08 PM
I was going to say the same thing but you beat me too it. Well said. I've used one tank for all apps. Never I'll repeat ever have I had a problem. Where do you guys get your info? Guys who sell tank sprayers?:dizzy: Your lucky if 2-4d kills a dandelion let alone a tree:laugh: The big feared Glyphosphate (round up) was originally a PGR. Lots of fear on here.



I agree, clean the tank out a few times and flush the hoses real good. When I worked at the co-op I sprayed thousands of acres of fields with the same sprayer. You just have to run water through the system and clean it. Depending on the chemical sometimes tank cleaner is necessary.

rcreech
02-11-2008, 02:21 PM
I agree, clean the tank out a few times and flush the hoses real good. When I worked at the co-op I sprayed thousands of acres of fields with the same sprayer. You just have to run water through the system and clean it. Depending on the chemical sometimes tank cleaner is necessary.


Henry B,

I have been in the chemical business since 95 and also have an agronomy degree so I guess I would say that I am VERY COMFORTABLE with my knowledge and experience. But I still do not share tanks! Too much risk in my mind! I don't care what you know or how much you know...when you share tanks...you are asking for trouble IMO!

The only tanks I put chem in is my PG and BP sprayers. I have a BP for every product (which is only 3) 1 for herbs, 1 for insect and 1 for Gly.

I never cross them up so rinsing isn't an issue!

ATV,

Same here! Worked for the Co-op for about 6 years through HS and then College and full time for a coulple years.

Dealing with corn and beans is much different then spraying a lawn and then trees!

Did you ever spray Banvel on corn and then RINSE the sprayer REAL GOOD and spray beans? If you did...then you know what happens almost EVERY TIME! Cupped beans!

RULE #1 for most people is don't share a tank! Can it be done? HECK YES

Is it good practice? NO...especailly for newer guys!

Newby...you are definilty going to be smart "playing it safe"!

HenryB
02-11-2008, 02:32 PM
Henry B,

I have been in the chemical business since 95 and also have an agronomy degree so I guess I would say that I am VERY COMFORTABLE with my knowledge and experience. But I still do not share tanks! Too much risk in my mind! I don't care what you know or how much you know...when you share tanks...you are asking for trouble IMO!

The only tanks I put chem in is my PG and BP sprayers. I have a BP for every product (which is only 3) 1 for herbs, 1 for insect and 1 for Gly.

I never cross them up so rinsing isn't an issue!

ATV,

Same here! Worked for the Co-op for about 6 years through HS and then College and full time for a coulple years.

Dealing with corn and beans is much different then spraying a lawn and then trees!

Did you ever spray Banvel on corn and then RINSE the sprayer REAL GOOD and spray beans? If you did...then you know what happens almost EVERY TIME! Cupped beans!

RULE #1 for most people is don't share a tank! Can it be done? HECK YES

Is it good practice? NO...especailly for newer guys!

Newby...you are definilty going to be smart "playing it safe"!

This isn't a pissing match. Use as many tanks as you like. I'm just giving my experience. I'm not saying you or anyone else should do as I. Everyone has their own way of doing things. I never questioned your knowledge so no reason to post your credentials. As a matter of fact you seem very knowledgeable.

rcreech
02-11-2008, 02:41 PM
This isn't a pissing match. Use as many tanks as you like. I'm just giving my experience. I'm not saying you or anyone else should do as I. Everyone has their own way of doing things. I never questioned your knowledge so no reason to post your credentials. As a matter of fact you seem very knowledgeable.

I agree and I am not trying to make this a pee contest!

You are right, you can do it either way!

My point and why I stated my "credentials"....I am very comfortable with the products I use and have a great knowledge of understanding of them, but I still won't share tanks!

Just too much room for human error and unknowns can cost BIG $$$$$$!

Spray a lawn and rinse....then spray a mature Jap Maple or several and it could cost you a grand or 3 pretty quick! :cry:

Do this once and it was cheaper to buy designated tanks! Thats my only point!

I am not going to say I don't trust myself...but in the spring when I get busy I don't want to have to worry about it! :cool2:

humble1
02-11-2008, 10:49 PM
Once you know all this you will understand what you can share tanks for and what you can't.

There is much more to it then most think!

Oh come on Rodney I know you take the spray tank with the 2-4d in it and mix liquid fert to foliar spray your flower garden--lol:laugh:

Trees Too
11-19-2013, 05:52 PM
When in doubt (and even if you think you know), READ THE PRODUCT LABELS!!!!!