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INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-09-2008, 09:18 PM
What qaulities would you list if you were to think of the pefect low voltage lighting cable?

Very Flexible Jacket, no memory effect and easy to install
Suitable for direct burial
Sunlight resistant
Tin Coated copper strands to eliminate oxidation.
Double jacketed conductors just like Romex
Inner colour coded jacket on conductors
90c rated for use indoors and on structures
Dual coloured outer jacket (Brown and Grey) for excellent hiding in trees.
Available in sizes from 8/2 through to 14/2.
Also available as a 10/3 and 12/3 for applications requiring grounding
Unique shape allowing for a water tight connection to hubs and junction boxes - guaranteed.

Never heard of such a cable before have you? Well it is now available from Qtran and is called Qwire. Check it out for yourself.

http://www.q-tran.com/

Go Halogen
02-09-2008, 09:52 PM
You do not need tin coated wire for most applications.
It is less conductive when compared to Copper only wire, thus
greater voltage drop. I only use it in my designs and installs when
the job is close to the shore. Marine grade wire for marine localities.

Too many guys get duped into using it all to often.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-09-2008, 09:57 PM
In another thread this was discussed at length. I believe the final word was that the differences in conductivity was inconsequential for our applications.

You have to admit, having a cable rated for direct burial as well as installation on and inside of structures and buildings is pretty remarkable!

Go Halogen
02-09-2008, 10:07 PM
James,

It sounds great. I just get urned off when I hear the "tin coated thing".
CAST has that approach and I have done enough jobs to know that is mostly
a marketing ploy. I have a couple hundred jobs in the ground (that I personally put in) and other than above ground incidence, the systems are doing well. 11+ years of work and I mostly use Baron copper only wire.

Do not get me wrong, your description of the new wire sounds awesome.

Good job!:clapping:

-Andy

pete scalia
02-09-2008, 10:21 PM
This sounds like one of those shills I was referring to in an other post.

pete scalia
02-09-2008, 10:26 PM
There are no new ideas just a rehashing of the same ole crap that's been available since the dinosaur days. And I like it that way.

Go Halogen
02-09-2008, 10:31 PM
I do not believe that James would participate in a shill. He is simply introducing a new product. How he heard about about it or who told him really does not matter.

We all decide what to try and what to believe.

I think that you just like to use the word "shill".

ChampionLS
02-10-2008, 01:50 AM
What qaulities would you list if you were to think of the pefect low voltage lighting cable?

Very Flexible Jacket, no memory effect and easy to install
ALL PVC insulation for underground circuit cable is soft
Suitable for direct burial
This is a UL 1838 requirement
Sunlight resistant
This is a UL 1838 requirement
Tin Coated copper strands to eliminate oxidation.
Probably beneficial but not a UL requirement
Double jacketed conductors just like Romex
SJT cord!!!
Inner colour coded jacket on conductors
SJT cord again.....
90c rated for use indoors and on structures
under UL 1838 in the US 105c is standard
Dual coloured outer jacket (Brown and Grey) for excellent hiding in trees.
Already available, including white, tan, yellow and green.
Available in sizes from 8/2 through to 14/2.
Thats it?? what about 10/3, 16/2, 18/2
Also available as a 10/3 and 12/3 for applications requiring grounding
Not needed
Unique shape allowing for a water tight connection to hubs and junction boxes - guaranteed.
SJT cord dammit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Never heard of such a cable before have you? Well it is now available from Qtran and is called Qwire. Check it out for yourself.
You need to get out more. It's all there.

ChampionLS
02-10-2008, 01:55 AM
You have to admit, having a cable rated for direct burial as well as installation on and inside of structures and buildings is pretty remarkable!

Now explain to me why you feel Circuit Cable can not be used indoors, if that's what your implying. :confused:

irrig8r
02-10-2008, 09:32 PM
What is SJT cord? Can you point me toan informational link? Googling it didn't turn up anything especially useful.

irrig8r
02-10-2008, 09:51 PM
OK, I found the following in this Power Cord Glossary (http://www.systemconnection.com/downloads/PDFs/power_cord_glossary.pdf)


SJT: Hard service cord for general use at 300 volts, rated -4° F to +140° F, PVC thermoplastic insulated and jacketed.


All the other references I found are about power tool cords and plug-in extension cords. Are you saying this same class of wire can be utilized in permanent LV lighting applications? If so, it's news to me.

ChampionLS
02-10-2008, 10:00 PM
YES YES YES YES YES! It must have the "W" wet location listing I. E. SJOW cord. Everybody is so stuck in the past on UL1838 revision 2, from 1999!!!!

ChampionLS
02-10-2008, 10:06 PM
Everyone is so stuck on using flat parallel cable. As I mentioned before, this is for convenience only. It was originally meant to be used with those tap connectors people keep grieving about. If everyone is using a hub method, upgrade your wiring choices too. I suggest you go buy or read the latest revision to UL 1838. They've added wiring choices to the list of circuit cable that can be used.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-11-2008, 07:43 AM
You cannot use any cable that has a jacket rated for 60c inside a structure. This includes the SPT-1 and SPT-2 cable that most of us use for LV outdoor lighting systems. In some areas they will even call you on it when you use it 'on a structure' like a deck. For interior applications, you must use a cable that has a minimum jacket rating of 90c (NMD 12/2 for instance or "Romex")

The new Qwire product makes use of a outer jacket rated to 105c and is listed to 90c applications. This allows it to be used on and inside structures. No more need to hide the wire or bend the rules. Just take a look at the product and you can see that it is double insulated just like 'traditional house wire' or romex. There is a jacket around each conductor, and then the outer jacket surrounds all. This outer jacket is rated for direct burial AND to 90c allowing it to be used on and inside of structures. I am also pretty sure it is the only cable on the market that makes use of two colours on the outer jacket. Charcoal Grey on one side, Brown on the other (for hiding in trees.)

SJOW is not an acceptable wire for use inside of structures as it is not rated to 90c.
This was never a discussion about appliance cords, power tool cords or extension cords!

irrig8r
02-11-2008, 11:46 AM
Well, is there another rounded (not flat) cable besides the SJTOW that has been used for outdoor LV applications?

The reason I ask is that sometime between 1989 and 1993, when I still had crews doing landscape maintenance, we had a senior VP at Intel as one of our clients. He brought in a lighting specialist for his oak studded hillsides. The fixtures used looked like current Lumiere uplights, and the cable was black and rounded.

I was intrigued because I had only ever used flat 12/2 and 10/2... but I never got a chance to talk with him before they were done and moved on, and I've never seen anything like it used since...

Pro-Scapes
02-11-2008, 05:27 PM
You cannot use any cable that has a jacket rated for 60c inside a structure. This includes the SPT-1 and SPT-2 cable that most of us use for LV outdoor lighting systems. In some areas they will even call you on it when you use it 'on a structure' like a deck. For interior applications, you must use a cable that has a minimum jacket rating of 90c (NMD 12/2 for instance or "Romex")

The new Qwire product makes use of a outer jacket rated to 105c and is listed to 90c applications. This allows it to be used on and inside structures. No more need to hide the wire or bend the rules. Just take a look at the product and you can see that it is double insulated just like 'traditional house wire' or romex. There is a jacket around each conductor, and then the outer jacket surrounds all. This outer jacket is rated for direct burial AND to 90c allowing it to be used on and inside of structures. I am also pretty sure it is the only cable on the market that makes use of two colours on the outer jacket. Charcoal Grey on one side, Brown on the other (for hiding in trees.)

SJOW is not an acceptable wire for use inside of structures as it is not rated to 90c.
This was never a discussion about appliance cords, power tool cords or extension cords!


And what did you use inside for low voltage before this fabulous new wire ? I am asking because we need to supply stuff for the EC to wire up 8 lights that will be sofit or surface mounted

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-11-2008, 05:42 PM
And what did you use inside for low voltage before this fabulous new wire ? I am asking because we need to supply stuff for the EC to wire up 8 lights that will be sofit or surface mounted

Billy. When I am installing structural lighting and have the wire running through the framing or other interior areas (anywhere inside the building envelope) I have used NMD 12/2 in order to meet the code. Basically 12ga. solid core 'house wire'. It is a pain to work with compared to the SPT-x stranded wire.

I will now be using the new Qwire instead.

Regards.

irrig8r
02-11-2008, 06:18 PM
So James... do you need any special tools to work with this new cable?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-11-2008, 08:39 PM
So James... do you need any special tools to work with this new cable?

Qtran has come up with a cool new stripping tool just for the Qwire. It is included in their sample kit that you can ask to have shipped to you. You get one with every order and I am sure you can purchase them separately if you need to.

It sort of looks like a modified potato peeler, It scrapes off the outer jacket with a smooth pull, but does not cut deep enough to knick the inner jackets. Quite trick.

Have a great day.

NightScenes
02-16-2008, 11:14 AM
Just a couple of thoughts.

If you talk to the folks at Cast or Qtran they will admit that the only benefits to tin coated wire are the ease of soldering (if you do that) and less corrosion for wire that is exposed (which it should not be anyway). They will also admit to an additional 2% voltage drop on tin coated wire.

If you don't solder (I use Buchanan crimps) and your connections are not exposing the bare wire to the elements (I sure hope not) then the added expense and added voltage drop for tin coated wire do not make it quality, only expensive.

ChampionLS
02-16-2008, 06:07 PM
James,

I think your mixing up Canadian code with US code. Everything I posted is legit here in the USA. ALL wire that I know of is rated with 105C Insulation. It actually costs more to produce a lesser value of 60.

I don't see any benefit of using the Qproducts, unless it makes you sleep better at night. Why re-invent the wheel? There are no major issues with the millions of people that work with the conventional wire on a day to day basis. This is simple landscape lighting, not the wiring of medical equipment.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-17-2008, 08:18 PM
Not sure about that Anothony. I would have guessed that all of your direct burial outdoor wire (NMWU and LV cable) would be like ours here, rated to 60c as they are not used for interior applications.

Pro-Scapes
02-18-2008, 01:40 PM
all the wire we use says 60c on it... on interiors and attics we now run romex

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-18-2008, 05:04 PM
I thought so Billy. Best to be safe and meet the code when mounting LV fixtures on and inside of structures. NMD 12/2 and 10/2 (romex) is a bit of a drag to use once you have become accustomed to working with stranded wire, but it does meet the code requirements.

Think about trying out the new Qwire for your structure mounted fixtures. No more having to think about what wire to use where. It really is very well conceived, designed and built.

Pro-Scapes
02-18-2008, 05:20 PM
I inquired with them asking about purchasing it and about a 1 foot sample to see. No reply equals no business from me.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-18-2008, 11:29 PM
I inquired with them asking about purchasing it and about a 1 foot sample to see. No reply equals no business from me.

Billy. I know that Qtran has lots of samples of the Qwire available as they were handing them out at the AOLP Conference. When you guys connect, ask them to send you out a Qscape catalog/sample bag.

Regards.

Pro-Scapes
02-19-2008, 12:04 AM
Billy. I know that Qtran has lots of samples of the Qwire available as they were handing them out at the AOLP Conference. When you guys connect, ask them to send you out a Qscape catalog/sample bag.

Regards.

the ball is in their court. I took the time to email them if they cant take the time to reply then its their loss. No worries what I am using now is working great as is.

ChampionLS
02-19-2008, 02:01 AM
Here's a vendor "Sea Gull Lighting" that stocks white and black circuit cable.
Note the ratings... 105C for use indoors... low voltage wiring.
Your using wire for designed for AC on DC circuits. Thats a lot of extra work.




Sea Gull Lighting 9471-15 - Ambiance Track Lighting 100' of White Cable
Specially designed, easy piercing, self-sealing insulation over sranded copper wire for use with the Ambiance® LX Lighting System. Markings for socket placement every 2". For use with track.
Features:

White finish
UL and C-UL listed.
For use with track
105°C 10/2 cable for indoor use only. Maximum wattage per length 300w at 12v; 500w at 24v
Overall Dimensions: Length: 600'' Width: 3/16'' Height: 3/8''