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pete scalia
02-10-2008, 01:58 PM
I don't know about you guys but I'm getting tired of looking at all these front yard elevations that have so called "architectural lighting" or in other words lights pointed straight up on flat wall surfaces in between windows that looks so unnatural and contrived. Especially you guys in the south. There are always hot spots at the lower wall too. I don't care what lenses you use it's all bad. I'm calling for a prohibition of this ugliness. Please support my moratorium. Thank you.

This has been a public service message for concerned citizens against ugly "architectural lighting".

Mike M
02-10-2008, 02:08 PM
I'll be taking some funny pics this week, I promise--you'll be amused. I'm working on my PowerPoint to campaign against stupid ideas/bad lighting.

Anyone interested in sharing samples of bad lighting, pm me and get on an e-mail thing, or, just post here on a special thread for it. No "propriety" crap, post it for sharing, and I'll post mine. I also started a yahoo group for LED crazies like myself.

Pete you always have good images of good fixtures gone bad, let me know if we can use those, too.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-10-2008, 04:36 PM
Believe it or not, I actually agree with you Pete.

Exactly who are these people who actually want the entire exterior of their home to be washed in light anyways?

The more 'architectural lighting' that I see displayed here the more I shake my head and think that it all looks the same. Sort of like driving through a new sub-division and seeing all of those soffit mounted pot lights that the builders are selling as upgrades.

What ever happened to being discreet, soft, and ethereal?

pete scalia
02-10-2008, 04:37 PM
Believe it or not, I actually agree with you Pete.

Exactly who are these people who actually want the entire exterior of their home to be washed in light anyways?

The more 'architectural lighting' that I see displayed here the more I shake my head and think that it all looks the same. Sort of like driving through a new sub-division and seeing all of those soffit mounted pot lights that the builders are selling as upgrades.

What ever happened to being discreet, soft, and ethereal?

Absolutely James, couldn't agree more. Let's ban the practice.

Eden Lights
02-10-2008, 04:43 PM
I don't know about you guys but I'm getting tired of looking at all these front yard elevations that have so called "architectural lighting" or in other words lights pointed straight up on flat wall surfaces in between windows that looks so unnatural and contrived. Especially you guys in the south. There are always hot spots at the lower wall too. I don't care what lenses you use it's all bad. I'm calling for a prohibition of this ugliness. Please support my moratorium. Thank you.

This has been a public service message for concerned citizens against ugly "architectural lighting".

Ok, you have my attention, show us some good lighting Pete? Pics Please? If we didn't uplight the facade of homes, we wouldn't be in business very long here in the south. Within that defention of uplighting you will see all different kind of styles from various designers. I can ride around and just about call out who did what just by the style of facade uplighting.

Eden Lights
02-10-2008, 04:44 PM
Believe it or not, I actually agree with you Pete.

Exactly who are these people who actually want the entire exterior of their home to be washed in light anyways?

The more 'architectural lighting' that I see displayed here the more I shake my head and think that it all looks the same. Sort of like driving through a new sub-division and seeing all of those soffit mounted pot lights that the builders are selling as upgrades.

What ever happened to being discreet, soft, and ethereal?

Same to you James, I am waiting for a pictorial education from you guys?

Eden Lights
02-10-2008, 04:47 PM
80% of our work

Eden Lights
02-10-2008, 04:49 PM
20% of our work

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-10-2008, 04:50 PM
Visit my website. There you will fine some photos of architectural lighting that I designed and installed.

My beef is that all of the ground mounted uplighting of structures looks the same after a while. It generally does not do a very good or stand out job of highlighting the subtle nuances of the structure.

By mounting your lights onto the building, finding unique features, and generally working MUCH harder at being unique with the application of light on structures, you can stand apart from the crowd.

Regards.

pete scalia
02-10-2008, 05:02 PM
20% of our work

First photo= Bunch of hot spots on a building
second photo depicts soft effective garden lighting

Maybe you should focus 80% of your business on what you are only doing 20% of the time right now. Just a thought.

Eden Lights
02-10-2008, 05:06 PM
Visit my website. There you will fine some photos of architectural lighting that I designed and installed.

My beef is that all of the ground mounted uplighting of structures looks the same after a while. It generally does not do a very good or stand out job of highlighting the subtle nuances of the structure.

By mounting your lights onto the building, finding unique features, and generally working MUCH harder at being unique with the application of light on structures, you can stand apart from the crowd.

Regards.

James, I have looked at your website many times and you do excellent work. I love doing what we call old money properties with mature landscapes, but that not who's buying the lighitng as a general rule. The only pics on your site of structures and materials that we work with here is the golf club: the entrance is just like everything we do here and the building I couldn't quite tell, but it looks like uplighting?

Eden Lights
02-10-2008, 05:11 PM
First photo= Bunch of hot spots on a building
second photo depicts soft effective garden lighting

Maybe you should focus 80% of your business on what you are only doing 20% of the time right now. Just a thought.

20w GE BAB lamps w/prismatic spread lens, hot spots? I don't think so.

I am still waiting for the pics guys? Show us how it's done?

pete scalia
02-10-2008, 05:17 PM
20w GE BAB lamps w/prismatic spread lens, hot spots? I don't think so.

I am still waiting for the pics guys? Show us how it's done?

Sorry Hot spot city and that stands.

Eden Lights
02-10-2008, 05:23 PM
Sorry Hot spot city and that stands.


I am still waiting for the Pics? Come on Pete, you started this friendly debate and I would love to see your work?

Mike M
02-10-2008, 05:23 PM
First photo= Bunch of hot spots on a building
second photo depicts soft effective garden lighting

Maybe you should focus 80% of your business on what you are only doing 20% of the time right now. Just a thought.

Pete! 80/20 principal!! Awesome, man. Cite the reference.

Eddie I think he is trying to say you under-use your great work with plant material.

Eden Lights
02-10-2008, 05:29 PM
While I am still waiting?

I have to admit my work has improved, we havn't taken any new pics in a couple of years. Here are some more.

pete scalia
02-10-2008, 05:33 PM
sorry it's still hot. If you used LED's instead of MR-16 halogens then you wouldn't be in the predicament that you are in over this issue.

Eden Lights
02-10-2008, 05:34 PM
Mike, Pete's a big boy, he can speak for himself.

I got to run to church and I will be back in a couple of hours. Surley you can come up with one or two pics, so we can learn from your post.

pete scalia
02-10-2008, 05:37 PM
I am still waiting for the Pics? Come on Pete, you started this friendly debate and I would love to see your work?

No I'm sorry I am not putting my work on display here. I wouldn't want to take the slight risk that someone may find fault with my work and pick it apart . That I could not live with. Nice hot spots on your walls though.

Eden Lights
02-10-2008, 05:37 PM
sorry it's still hot. If you used LED's instead of MR-16 halogens then you wouldn't be in the predicament that you are in over this issue.

Good one, but the Phillips GBF has already proven it's self as a excellent low lumen smooth source.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
02-10-2008, 05:40 PM
Eddie. I am not discrediting your work as it is very well done. You certainly have more photo evidence of your work then I do!

When I really think about it, my dislike for achitectural uplighting is probably more environmental then anything else. Here in Muskoka, my clients are all about being very discreet. They do not want to have their home lit up. They want to be very soft, discreet and generally go un-noticed. Keep in mind that 99% of the properties I work on are waterfront homes and have huge site lines across the lakes to the neighbours.

I guess the environment here has affected my style and sense of what is attractive.

To each their own.

Eden Lights
02-10-2008, 05:42 PM
No I'm sorry I am not putting my work on display here. I wouldn't want to take the slight risk that someone may find fault with my work and pick it apart . That I could not live with. Nice hot spots on your walls though.

I am disappointed Pete, I thought you where the real deal? I love to show my work so I can get constructive criticism of it from other professionals. You should be prepared to make a speech in the future if your going to stand up on the stump.

Eden Lights
02-10-2008, 05:45 PM
I agree I am tried of them too,but they sure pay good.

pete scalia
02-10-2008, 05:55 PM
I'm sorry Eden but I have no time for night photography. I am too busy wasting my time here. Me the real deal, you must be kidding. I'm not here to get constructive criticism from anyone here as y'all (hey I'm from the south now) don't pay my bills. My customers do and that's all that matters to me. I'm biding my time here in hopes that some manufacturer or distributor will hire me to be their shill. I here there is good money to be made doing that.

Mike M
02-10-2008, 06:05 PM
I just think there are two benefits for up lighting structures and downlighting from trees, (1) it's a lot easier (including a nice demo and simple install), and (2) these homes cost more than the town I was born in. I don't even want to lean a ladder against that wall if I don't have too. But I will, if I have too.

Why mount on the structure, if I can cover it from the ground and get a 2-for-1 by backlighting plant material as well?

And downlighting from trees is easy and romantic, and effective with nice long-shielded fixtures.

To be fair, I had to mount a wire under the lip of the brick steps to run my cables to other side.

NightLightingFX
02-10-2008, 07:25 PM
Eddie,
Those are AWSOME pieces of work. I have no idea what Pete and James are complaining about. There are no hot spots - really neat rhythm. You can't get any better than what you have done. I would like to see someone post an architectural lighting job that beats what you have done. Come on Pete show us what you are talking about. Pete you must have some pics of your work (How do show your prospect what you can do?). I want to see something better than Eddie's work - It isn't possible.
Just my oppinion
~Ned

Pro-Scapes
02-10-2008, 09:06 PM
I gotta agree with eden... most times clients ask for the structure to be lit. Our own house is indirectly lit with spill light from the landscaping and we uplit only 2 ligustrum trees. Most of the houses we end up lighting either do not have a WOW landscape or hardscapes that warrant lighting.

How would you be doing this pete if it was you ?

pete scalia
02-10-2008, 09:13 PM
I gotta agree with eden... most times clients ask for the structure to be lit. Our own house is indirectly lit with spill light from the landscaping and we uplit only 2 ligustrum trees. Most of the houses we end up lighting either do not have a WOW landscape or hardscapes that warrant lighting.

How would you be doing this pete if it was you ?

I'd find customers that had landscapes that where worthy of lighting. Don't they have trees , gardens, fountains and statuary in the south?

SamIV
02-10-2008, 09:57 PM
If he focused more on that 20%, good chance he would be in home theater systems instead of lighting full time. Frankly, I like architectural up-lighting. This is a very common segment in our market. Very rarely do we have the elements available in Eden's second photo. I am sure his photos are much hotter than the system looks in person.

I asked Billy the same question on a job he just bid about including more lighting of the landscaping, but the client does not want it. Would you walk from this eighty fixture job? Now that would just be silly.

Burt Wilson
Accent Outdoor Lighting

Eden Lights
02-10-2008, 10:17 PM
While the south has some the best landscapes available it also has some the best and most diverse architecture available. With that being said it's our job to educate or clients about all the various types of lighting and how a layering of the these various types are what create a cohesive composition that achieves a dramatic vista from various view points. Ultimately you want to create something that surpasses your clients expectations and if you neglected to highlight, enhance, and extend the viewable hours of their most prized possession which is their HOME then you would fail them as a designer in 80% of your clients minds and I have to say I agree with them.

Guys we are not uplighting logs and vinyl siding down here in the south, It's hand shaped stone, brick, copper, stucco, slate, and etc. that takes multiple years and a multi-million budget to construct.

Eden Lights
02-10-2008, 10:26 PM
Eddie. I am not discrediting your work as it is very well done. You certainly have more photo evidence of your work then I do!

When I really think about it, my dislike for achitectural uplighting is probably more environmental then anything else. Here in Muskoka, my clients are all about being very discreet. They do not want to have their home lit up. They want to be very soft, discreet and generally go un-noticed. Keep in mind that 99% of the properties I work on are waterfront homes and have huge site lines across the lakes to the neighbours.

I guess the environment here has affected my style and sense of what is attractive.

To each their own.

I understand your points and I thank you for your comments. My question is what level of lumen's do you consider SOFT? What lamp sources are you referring too?

extlights
02-11-2008, 12:35 AM
I think your work looks great Eden. Now for those who think that uplighting is ugly or unattractive....how exactly would you have illuminated those homes that Eden has shown to get a better effect?

Pro-Scapes
02-11-2008, 08:42 AM
when uplighting is done right there should be little to no hot spots. Im not saying you will not be brighter the closer you get to the source.

I would rather arrive at a home... look to the top and see the home not some bright source of light. Yes I know proper downlighting would help reduce glare but anytime your near the home and gaze upwards at the sky your gonne be blinded.

I really do preffer the way our home looks with wash lights set out 4 ft or so from the home or used to uplight the sweet olives leaving the nice shadows to dance on the walls. With our plant types and common landscape designs in the area this is rarly possible. Unless I were to dig up half the landscape in order to obtain ideal mounting locations I will continue to do the very best I can with the projects I am presented with. One thing is for certain I always leave my clients with a smile.

JoeyD
02-11-2008, 10:04 AM
The home costs $1million and the landscape $100K........They spent the money on the home first I think I would always begin my lighting design there then work my way out.

Mike M
02-11-2008, 12:45 PM
That's a great point, Joey.

Pro-Scapes
02-11-2008, 05:18 PM
yep good point Joey.

Often times with the size of the properties we light its not feesible to light the natural wooded landscape a whole lot.

I do go for the home first then let them add the zones for the landscape. On the project Burt is talking about the client did not want alot of lighting in the wooded areas. The entrance way landscapes will be lit but also there is a good deal of landscape that is apealing during the day but would be rather hard and not very appealing lit up so we choose to light the home and let the landscape be backlit off the refectivness of the light colored home.

eskerlite
02-11-2008, 05:33 PM
Eden, great work and photos. What are everyones feelings about using 20 watt mr-16
7 degree spots on the corners of the brick home Eden installed lighting at. I use this effect alot. The brick home with the in n out brick trim on the edges of the home I always spot with a 7 degree mr 20 watt and flood the centers like seen in edens photos. Whats the consensus?
Sean C.

Pro-Scapes
02-11-2008, 05:52 PM
Eden, great work and photos. What are everyones feelings about using 20 watt mr-16
7 degree spots on the corners of the brick home Eden installed lighting at. I use this effect alot. The brick home with the in n out brick trim on the edges of the home I always spot with a 7 degree mr 20 watt and flood the centers like seen in edens photos. Whats the consensus?
Sean C.

never tried a 7 degree spot and dont think I have ever actually seen one. My narrows are 12 degree.

I am finding clients like a more diffused light.. 36 and 60 degrees with some sort of lens depending on the application. Im not real keen on the narrow beams of light going up a wall.

Lets try another approach to this. How far out are you guys who uplight placing your fixtures ? We are generally in the 10 inch range but often it varies depending on the useable space we have behind the landscape. Just depends on the house and the clients tastes.

Lite4
02-11-2008, 06:03 PM
Holy Cow, I can't believe I havn't been reading this thread. Eddie, beautiful work my friend. You are a true pro and you have a great eye for composition. In my area, so many of the homes are very new and they have almost nothing in the way of landscaping to light up. Most clients definitely want their house to be the focal point so it is prominant and inviting to guests and neighbors, which makes this the obvious place to begin and create transitional spaces to other focal points in the landscape. I have seen some lighting that can be too hot, but for pete's sake, (not you Pete, just an expression), you are being critical of photographs which we all know can be misrepresentive of the actual light levels that are really being displayed. Pete stop picking fights man. Every body has their own style they purvey. If someone doesn't like mine or Eddie's style, perhaps they can hire you to put in some tree uplights and path runway lights for them.:laugh:

eskerlite
02-11-2008, 07:55 PM
Ge constant color EZX Mr-16 20 watt 7 degree. Try one. 6" spacing from wall with spot and 18" with flood.
Sean C.

pete scalia
02-11-2008, 08:46 PM
Holy Cow, I can't believe I havn't been reading this thread. Eddie, beautiful work my friend. You are a true pro and you have a great eye for composition. In my area, so many of the homes are very new and they have almost nothing in the way of landscaping to light up. Most clients definitely want their house to be the focal point so it is prominant and inviting to guests and neighbors, which makes this the obvious place to begin and create transitional spaces to other focal points in the landscape. I have seen some lighting that can be too hot, but for pete's sake, (not you Pete, just an expression), you are being critical of photographs which we all know can be misrepresentive of the actual light levels that are really being displayed. Pete stop picking fights man. Every body has their own style they purvey. If someone doesn't like mine or Eddie's style, perhaps they can hire you to put in some tree uplights and path runway lights for them.:laugh:

I think your brain froze from doing all those nighttime demo's this winter.

Lite4
02-11-2008, 11:04 PM
W W W Wait till it t t t thaws out, Then I w w will really b b b be pasting hot spots on h h houses.

Eden Lights
02-11-2008, 11:54 PM
Thanks everyone for all the comments, while I wasn't the original poster of this thread, it has been very educational for me. I wished we talked more about the design aspects of this business and less about the volts and connectors side that we seem to get so hung up on. Again thanks to everyone for taking the time to post.

Mike M
02-12-2008, 12:50 AM
I personally enjoy the topics related to intelligent design of circuitry and proper management of volts and connector types. I think mastering these concepts will permit me to use new technologies to their full potential, ultimately leading to more liberating design options and control of my light levels and visual effects.

If anyone here thinks LED's are something to just splice into the ends of your current leads, think again. Google Phillips and Color Kinetics to see a level of architectural lighting that will blow your mind.