Who is the Dirt Doc. on here?

[Maintenance Man]

I am wanting to grow my lawn program the right way and was wondering who can tell me what things I need to know if I do soil samples and where the different minerals should be. Lots of info would be helpful. Nebraska

[Turfdoctor1]

i don't understand the question. where the minerals should be? as in, what amounts?

In my opinion, the three most important parts of a soil test are the Phosphorous levels, the potassium levels and the pH.

Adequate levels of P is probably about 60 to 80 ppm.
Adequate levels of K is 120 to 510 ppm.
pH 6.0-6.9.

These are obviously broad ranges, but it was the quickest i could pull off the internet. I always think <250ppm K is probably low.

[Maintenance Man]

Yea thats what I was looking for, are there any other nutrients that a person should look for or test for. Mabey with regards to other plants like trees, shrubs, roses, ect.

Also do you know of any books that could shed some light on this. Just want to get it right and know what I am talking about when I talk to the customers.

[americanlawn]

Easiest way is to find out what competitors are using. Soil samples are usually a waste of time. Also check with LESCO & other vendors as to what they are selling. It's usually best to keep things simple, but if you want scientific data, University of Nebraska is a fine source.

[Maintenance Man]

Thanks for the help! Neighbor-looks like you arn't toooo far away!

[americanlawn]

M M ........I'm just a couple hours away on I-80. Got friends in your state. PM anytime you want. Larry, Des Moines.

[txgrassguy]

Soil tests are area specific - meaning different soils in different parts of the country require different amendments.
Once you learn how to properly read the soil test report for your given area, host turf, etc - it will clearly explain what is necessary.
I would recommend speaking with your local extension office for further information specific to your operational area.

[whoopassonthebluegrass]

Unless you're groundskeeper for one property, you shouldn't bother with that kind of detail. As bad as it sounds, you have to take a general approach. You can't please ALL the people ALL the time... so just find a solid business practice that will please MOST of the people ALL of the time...

Then, later on down the road, if you really want the headache, you can soil test and problem-solve on troubled areas...

[Turfdoctor1]

Unless you're groundskeeper for one property, you shouldn't bother with that kind of detail. As bad as it sounds, you have to take a general approach. You can't please ALL the people ALL the time... so just find a solid business practice that will please MOST of the people ALL of the time...

Then, later on down the road, if you really want the headache, you can soil test and problem-solve on troubled areas...

I completely disagree with this advice. In my state, it is against the law not to have a soil test on record for every customer. stupid, but true, unless they have changed the law, again.

I agree that a general approach is probably necassary, but you may find a few properties way out of whack. In those instances a general approach just won't cut it. If a certain customer is low in P, say, "Mr. Jones, your soil test results show that you have a P deficiency, and I believe we better make an extra application to bump those levels up so that your grass is better able to take up the nutrients that it needs."

Guess what, you sound like you know what you are doing, the customer believes that you generally care about them, which you do, you really do help the health of the soil and therefore the grass, and you get to make an extra application. Everybody wins.

[whoopassonthebluegrass]

I completely disagree with this advice. In my state, it is against the law not to have a soil test on record for every customer. stupid, but true, unless they have changed the law, again.

I agree that a general approach is probably necassary, but you may find a few properties way out of whack. In those instances a general approach just won't cut it. If a certain customer is low in P, say, "Mr. Jones, your soil test results show that you have a P deficiency, and I believe we better make an extra application to bump those levels up so that your grass is better able to take up the nutrients that it needs."

Guess what, you sound like you know what you are doing, the customer believes that you generally care about them, which you do, you really do help the health of the soil and therefore the grass, and you get to make an extra application. Everybody wins.


Wow. I can't imagine spending that much time on one yard, unless it's significant. Profit margins being what they are, I think your state screwed you. LOL.

You're right, of course. But I'm not actually in this simply to make the world a greener place. That's just one of the perks of MAKING A LIVING.

Soil sample for every lawn? Yikes!

[Doster's L & L]

I'm right in there with Turf Doc. If you're going to be in the fertilization business, you MUST have the soil analyzed. This small amount of time spent will be well worth it in the long run. Suppose your Phosphorus is TOO HIGH to start out with. Then you continuously and ignorantly apply a fert that is a little too high in P. Since P doesn't leech from the soil, you'll have massive amounts of P stockpiled for a number of years to come. And yes, this leads to a not so pretty lawn and a not too happy customer.

You won't have to worry about having an angry client because at this point, this will be one less client you'll be servicing. So there goes the whole "making a living" thing.

[whoopassonthebluegrass]

If you're going to be in the fertilization business, you MUST have the soil analyzed.

Really? So that's why I only have a 90% retention rate with my customers. (96% if you discount those who moved away)...

This small amount of time spent will be well worth it in the long run.

Around here a soil analysis up at the university costs $45. That's probably a third of my profit margin for one customer (with a typical-around-here 6,000 square foot yard). It's not just about time - it's about $.


Suppose your Phosphorus is TOO HIGH to start out with. Then you continuously and ignorantly apply a fert that is a little too high in P. Since P doesn't leech from the soil, you'll have massive amounts of P stockpiled for a number of years to come. And yes, this leads to a not so pretty lawn and a not too happy customer.

First off, we have regional differences. I have no need for P at all here. So that's a total non-issue.

What's more, is almost nobody around here had soil amenities done when they installed their landscaping. Thus a very small percent of lawns will be OUTSIDE the status-quo.

You won't have to worry about having an angry client because at this point, this will be one less client you'll be servicing. So there goes the whole "making a living" thing.

You may have to do things totally different where you are. That's fine. But in response to the original question, I'll reword my answer so as to encompass you dunderheads who think that I'm losing clientèle by not doing things your way:

If you don't have some glaring need for soil analysis (such as myself) it's a waste of money. If you DO - then this is really a moot point.

If it ain't broke...

[Doster's L & L]

whoopass,

My post wasn't directed at you.... well, atleast not until we got to the last sentence anyway.

My point in saying what i did is to illustrate that you CAN jack someone's lawn up by "puttin' a little bit a fertilizer" on someone's property. For someone who may not know a good portion of what there is to know about soil chemistry and gets into the fertilizing business needs to know what i just said.

[whoopassonthebluegrass]

whoopass,

My post wasn't directed at you.... well, atleast not until we got to the last sentence anyway.

My point in saying what i did is to illustrate that you CAN jack someone's lawn up by "puttin' a little bit a fertilizer" on someone's property. For someone who may not know a good portion of what there is to know about soil chemistry and gets into the fertilizing business needs to know what i just said.

Okay. I just could've sworn I saw you in vision whacking your keyboard against the monitor and yelling my name. My bad.

Healthy paranioa, perhaps?

*trucewhiteflag*

[Doster's L & L]

It's not a problem. why would I ever want to offend anyone on the web who has a name of whoopass? That just doesn't make good sense. :hammerhead:
Now as I think about it, I don't think that healthy and paranoia should ever be used in the same sentence together.... especially when the prior precedes the latter. :nono: :laugh::drinkup:

[Turfdoctor1]

$45 for a soil test!! wow.

our's are free through the county extension office. If you need somesoil tests done, mail em to me. I'll only charge you $20!

[whoopassonthebluegrass]

$45 for a soil test!! wow.

our's are free through the county extension office. If you need somesoil tests done, mail em to me. I'll only charge you $20!

LOL. A few hundred manila envelopes of dirt coming right up!

[timturf]

soil test a must!!!

Once you get the soil chemistry correct, then soil test every 3-4 years if you completely understand the soil and how your fert progrom will affect the soil chemistry. All my new accounts get a custom program for the first 2-3 yrs until soil chemistry is correct, then they go on a standard maint. program, that has little effect in changing the soil chemistry

[americanlawn]

7 or 10 years ago, we took 214 (or 224 - I can't remember which) soil samples from all areas we service. We included soil plugs at a 2 - 4 inch depth on each property (4 or 5 plugs per property), and put the combined plugs in each paper bag. Samples were anaylized for pH and nutrient deficiencies.

Results: Clay soil lawns were deficient in 5 micronutrients plus nitrogen. Loam soil lawns were deficient in nitrogen only. We figured this would be the case even before we collected the samples, but we wanted to be sure. This extensive testing was done for free by our liquid (synthetic-organic) fertilizer supplier.

Hope these first-hand results are helpful, but I realize our market is pretty much "cut & dry". Clay = bad. Loam = good.

L.

[BeautifulBlooms]

Easiest way is to find out what competitors are using. Soil samples are usually a waste of time. Also check with LESCO & other vendors as to what they are selling. It's usually best to keep things simple, but if you want scientific data, University of Nebraska is a fine source.

Dont you think you should be responsible and do a soil test before recommending fertility applications to people? I have recently added this to my programs to show that I am not just blindly applying fertilizer. I also am informing my customers that if they do not currently leave their grass clippings on their lawn they should because it will save them 25% of the fertilizer cost throughout the year, as well as minimize nutrient waste and off site contamination of nutrients.

Remember your fertilizer salesmen are exactly that salesman, and they may not all recommend the proper way of doing things. They are in the business of selling product to you. I am not saying all salesmen are bad, but temper what they tell you with what you already know.

[Turfdoctor1]

Dont you think you should be responsible and do a soil test before recommending fertility applications to people? I have recently added this to my programs to show that I am not just blindly applying fertilizer. I also am informing my customers that if they do not currently leave their grass clippings on their lawn they should because it will save them 25% of the fertilizer cost throughout the year, as well as minimize nutrient waste and off site contamination of nutrients.

Remember your fertilizer salesmen are exactly that salesman, and they may not all recommend the proper way of doing things. They are in the business of selling product to you. I am not saying all salesmen are bad, but temper what they tell you with what you already know.

Blooms, I think your logic is good, but you are missing some pretty major points. I believe that it is a great idea to use soil tests results to help determine the amounts of P and K that we apply as well as the micros. I too believe that we should not blindly apply fertilizers with high amounts of P and K if they are already in ample quantity in the soil.

However, N is ultimately the main concern in our nutrient management programs. Since nitrogen is not stable in the soil, using soil test results to determine the amount of N that you are applying is practically useless. Those results give you a snapshot view of the amount of N in the soil at that given time. 2 weeks later, the next day, 6 months later, it is going to be totally different.

Any manager should know what amounts of N should be applied to their given turf species for their given climate. It should not be based on what the salesman says. It should be based on what experience, research, recommendations by professionals, and common sense say.

[BeautifulBlooms]

Oh I totally agree with you about the N. I didnt think soil tests even told you Nitrogen levels. I just know how much my turf type, combined with soil types, and environmental conditions should require. Shade also reduces the need for Nitrogen.

I was simply trying to say that soil tests can be very valuable, and they certainly can also increase your image to your customers as it shows you are being responsible with the nutrients applied to their property, at least it is if you follow the guidelines laid out in the soil test results. I think this will be an increasingly important aspect of our business, we have to adjust to the changing market and pesticide and fertilizer use is probably the most important issue right now with turf managers.

I love this kind of discussion. Its intelligent and all in the best interest of all of us. Its up to us to determine what to do with the information.

[Frank Fescue]

customers are usually done. tell them you're doing a soil test and say the lawn is low in something and they need to spend an extra 200-300 bucks to fix it.

[BeautifulBlooms]

Wow now thats a responsible approach. I think you meant to say that customers are dum.

[Frank Fescue]

some people measure success by an old lady saying thank you and giving you a plug of ribbon candy for bustin' your hump on her property. i consider my success my inflated bank account and two large houses. buyer beware, theres people out there who will take your money without asking i'll at least show up for a couple minutes every month and a half.

[BeautifulBlooms]

Bets of luck in life with that attitude man. Congratulations on your two houses too man thats awesome!

[RigglePLC]

Only one house and its small.

But if you like to get technical--do a "Tissue test". It is like a soil test, but it is done on the green leaf blades themselves. It determines the ratio of nitrogen, phos, potash, calcium, magnesium and other micro nutrients--and the ratios that have been taken up and are actually within the plant. So if something is tied up or unavailble in the soil --it will become obvious.

Costs a lot more of course. But better.

[BeautifulBlooms]

Riggle how much does a tissue test cost? I can see it is a more beneficial number but it would need to constantly be taken in order to fully understand the plants. Soil tests would be more genera; but would indicate the overall health of your soils. Its up to the plants to actually take up the nutrients however.

[timturf]

Only one house and its small.

But if you like to get technical--do a "Tissue test". It is like a soil test, but it is done on the green leaf blades themselves. It determines the ratio of nitrogen, phos, potash, calcium, magnesium and other micro nutrients--and the ratios that have been taken up and are actually within the plant. So if something is tied up or unavailble in the soil --it will become obvious.

Costs a lot more of course. But better.

Riggle,

I totally agree with the tissue test, BUT I wouldn't recommend doing until a soil test has been done, all corrections have been applied, then wait 1 year after last application, do another soil test. If soil chemistry is correct, and getting poor response, THEN I would do a tissue sample.

When gc Supt, we would do regular tissue samples on some of the putting greens during the stressful summer months. Again, this was only on putting greens, so I would do on a home lawn until soil chemistry is correct and your not getting the proper results from fert applications. Also, don't forget the water quality... When in N IL, could lower the soil ph, even after applying the max sulfer, do to high ph of irrigation water.