Low volume herbicides

[B-Easy]

I've been researching the PG ride-on for awhile and took the next step today and went out to Lesco to ask some more questions. In the course of our back and forth he stated that only a herbicide labeled as low volume (of which they have 2 options, Red Zone and Momentum) could "legally" be used with the PG but that pretty much everyone used their 3-way herbicides and took their chances with the State. I don't know that I've seen this issue addressed in any previous threads re. the PG's. Any information would be appreciated.

[rcreech]

I've been researching the PG ride-on for awhile and took the next step today and went out to Lesco to ask some more questions. In the course of our back and forth he stated that only a herbicide labeled as low volume (of which they have 2 options, Red Zone and Momentum) could "legally" be used with the PG but that pretty much everyone used their 3-way herbicides and took their chances with the State. I don't know that I've seen this issue addressed in any previous threads re. the PG's. Any information would be appreciated.

Great question...but this has been discussed on here SEVERAL times actually.

I think I am going to have to disagree with you Lesco man!

If the label stated DO NOT spray at low volumes and you did then that is against the label.

It just lists in the COMMENTS the gallons to be used. A lot of grey area really!

It just depends on how you want to "read it".

I just went through an ODA inspection about a month ago and the inspector went through a ton of my records. He never said anything about it.

I also had my Lesco man check with the state and we are fine.

As long as you apply the correct AI/given area...they could care less about the amount of carrier you use.

Just call you state and ask them!


I hope you didn't just open a can of worms that was closed a while back! :laugh: :cry: :hammerhead:

[SpreadNSpray]

I couldn't get the 3way label off of lesco's web site but i did get the label off pbi gordon's for trimec 992. Trimec 992 list the mix rates at
5-175 gallons of water per acre. The Permagreen falls within that.

Call your state dept of ag. I called mine last year and asked about low volume. They were more concerned about application rates, not mix rates. They said I should be ok as long as I was calibrated within the application rates on the label.

[Blink74]

I have also been researching this for some time. I actually demoed one in the fall and used it to spray Momentum for broadleaf control. I was skeptical of using such low volume, but, it did the job.

From what I understand the Threeway is too thick for regular use in the PG and will cause issues. I was told that Eliminate Lo is the Ideal product for the PG, as it is labeled and intended for low volume usage. I used it in my skid sprayer in early spring 07 and it worked as well as Momentum, plus it has little odor and cost less. I was also advised to use a different sticker in the PG but can't remember what it was.

I think you are going to be limited to what can be sprayed with the PG. I'm ordering one soon and only plan to use it for broadleaf control and granular. I'll still have my skid sprayer for other incidental applications.

[rcreech]

I have also been researching this for some time. I actually demoed one in the fall and used it to spray Momentum for broadleaf control. I was skeptical of using such low volume, but, it did the job.

From what I understand the Threeway is too thick for regular use in the PG and will cause issues. I was told that Eliminate Lo is the Ideal product for the PG, as it is labeled and intended for low volume usage. I used it in my skid sprayer in early spring 07 and it worked as well as Momentum, plus it has little odor and cost less. I was also advised to use a different sticker in the PG but can't remember what it was.

I think you are going to be limited to what can be sprayed with the PG. I'm ordering one soon and only plan to use it for broadleaf control and granular. I'll still have my skid sprayer for other incidental applications.

Three Way isn't thick at all! It has about the same "thickness" as water!

There are absolutly NO issues with spraying Three Way with a PG.

I went through 2 - 55 gallon drums last year if that makes you feel any better!

[PSUTURFGEEK]

You shouldn't have to feel like your'e gonna open a can of worms everytime a similar discussion comes up, I think that just makes everyone feel uncomfortable. Just help the guy out and don't worry about past differences.

[Blink74]

Three Way isn't thick at all! It has about the same "thickness" as water!

There are absolutly NO issues with spraying Three Way with a PG.

I went through 2 - 55 gallon drums last year if that makes you feel any better!

I may be mistaken. It may have been the three way ester formula or something different. My point is; there are products they recommend not using in the PG for one reason or another.

BTW, no, it doesn't make me feel better that use used 2-55 gal drums last year.

[RigglePLC]

I have used Three-way--no problem. I normally use regular Eliminate in my Permagreen Ultra--no problem. I have used Three-way Ester II--slight problem--I think perhaps it settled out overnight and was too strong the next morning, for the first 30 seconds.

Now more recently, I have a mild sparge recirculating agitation system in my Permagreen tank.

Has anyone devised a good agitation system for their Permagreen?

[Jason Rose]

How ironic, I was at the Lesco, errr, John deere Landscapes today too! I was there after 1:00 and spent about an hour talking to Larry.

Never fear, he DOES know his stuff and is pretty fimiliar with the Permagreen. Yes, there are more and more products that are getting their labels changed so that they will include the ultra low volumes used in the PG and similar set-ups. I have used standard 3-way quite a bit in mine and it works fine. Legal? Honestly I couldn't recite you the label right off hand, but I believe it IS sort of vague when it comes to water volumes. Granted the 30oz. per K. is on the very bottom of the scale!

I *try* to not leave chemical in the tank over night. Yes, some times it's unavoidable. Running the unit for a bit, driving, or even a stir stick is a good idea for getting the tank mixed back up good.

PS. If you are really interested in it I'm sure he would be glad to dig it out and let you test drive it. He may even put some water in it and let you get a feel for the spray pattern etc. in the parking lot. (that's what I did before I bought mine) Also, you might wait a little while still, they may have some incintive programs (low or 0% financing and discounts) as it gets a little closer to spring. I got mine for 3 years no intrest!

[rcreech]

I may be mistaken. It may have been the three way ester formula or something different. My point is; there are products they recommend not using in the PG for one reason or another.

BTW, no, it doesn't make me feel better that use used 2-55 gal drums last year.


I don't know of any LIQUID broadleaf products that you can't run with the PG.

The only thing that I can think of is WP's or something as they may not work well as this unit has no agitation!

I know a lot of people that run a ton of different products through their PG with no trouble at all!

I am thinking I heave heard that there are certain surfactants and such that you can't run.

[Blink74]

I'm not sure if you get off pointing out when you "think" someone is wrong, or if you're just fanatical about Permagreen? In my search for info for ride-ons. I've noticed that you dig into anyone who says anything you conceive as being derogatory about the PGs. I'm not saying the PG is inferior or anything like that. I'm simply relaying info I've gathered about low volume spraying with the PG. As I stated, I don't own one yet and I don't use three way (don't like call backs). If you would like, you can call JD landscapes in Plain City, OH and tell them they are wrong.

[rcreech]

I'm not sure if you get off pointing out when you "think" someone is wrong, or if you're just fanatical about Permagreen? In my search for info for ride-ons. I've noticed that you dig into anyone who says anything you conceive as being derogatory about the PGs. I'm not saying the PG is inferior or anything like that. I'm simply relaying info I've gathered about low volume spraying with the PG. As I stated, I don't own one yet and I don't use three way (don't like call backs). If you would like, you can call JD landscapes in Plain City, OH and tell them they are wrong.

I don't "get off" on pointing out when people are wrong at all....but I will be the first to stand up for what have seen, learned and know!

Just as I would expect from you all on here!

If you think or know that I am wrong...tell me (which none of us on here has a problem of doing)! :laugh:

If you say that a PG can't spray Three Way...and we leave it at that, then a lot of people may think it is true.

IT IS NOT! So I will be the first one to say "hold on a minute here"!

You are right, I am a big fan of the PG!

I guess when you stated there were problems with certain products it just made me wonder where you got your info!

REMEMBER: The Lesco guys just SELL the unit as they don't USE them everyday like us!

I would hope you could put more faith in all the people on here that apply over thousands of acres vs. a guy that is trying to make a sale.




If they think that spraying Three Way is illegal and thinks it causes problems when applying...then get me their number!

I have "real life data" (results) that I can share with them so they canl quit "misinforming" people.

[Shades of Green LService]

Products i used in my PG last year:
3 WAY
MOMENTUM fx2
Q4
DRIVE
MOSQUITO BARRIER
CROSS CHECK
FERROMEC
OH and WATER

The only one i had a problem with was the mosquito barrier, as it clogs filters VERY quick. Also, Drive was used on a new account that had a ton of CG ( worked very well by the way) Q4 was experimental on my own property ( worked fine, but to expensive.)

[PSUTURFGEEK]

I won't speak for everybody in this industry but.... where excactly do you think "Lesco Guys" and other fert and chemical sales reps come from? like maybe space or something. I happen to know that they don't only sell the machines but most of them operated them or similar ones for many years.
Remember Perma Green came out with the original cowboy unit which was b4 the centri which I still have in the early 1990's, I'm not trying to come back to hard at you but these guys don't just sell the pg's.

[Shades of Green LService]

I won't speak for everybody in this industry but.... where excactly do you think "Lesco Guys" and other fert and chemical sales reps come from? like maybe space or something. I happen to know that they don't only sell the machines but most of them operated them or similar ones for many years.
Remember Perma Green came out with the original cowboy unit which was b4 the centri which I still have in the early 1990's, I'm not trying to come back to hard at you but these guys don't just sell the pg's.

Both of My Lesco Reps have no experience in the field w permagreens. All of what they know is from PG themself and feed back from customers. So Yes, they just sell them. At least in my case.

[PSUTURFGEEK]

sounds great!!

[PSUTURFGEEK]

sounds great!! I guess you can teach them something.

[rcreech]

Pasture,

You would think that....but from what I have heard on here from most of the guys, they claim their Lesco guys don't know crap. And from what their Lesco guys tell them..I would have to agree!

I know there are awesome Lesco reps out there and several of them are no here from time to time. Fortunately, I have AWESOME Lesco guys. My main Lesco guy has been in the business 30 years but he had his own lawncare co along time ago and has been with Lesco along time.

Even though he has 30 years in the business...I am sure he hasn't logged much time at all on a ride-on!

I would just think that a person on here would listen to peoples experience over a salesman with little to no experience.

Maybe I am wrong!

[PSUTURFGEEK]

Your'e right listen to the guys that post the answer to your questions on here. I know I've talked about this b4 but here it goes again, advice is great whether it's from someone on here or a know nothing salesman but the point is these machines are one of the most basic machines you may ever buy. You can honestly take apart and rebuild or fix anything on any of the models
cowboy,centri,ultra,magnum,especially the magnum with such little wiring involved in no time at all and anyone can do it, almost anyone.

[Shades of Green LService]

I'm not saying my guys don't know their stuff, They are very intelligent w/ our field and respect what they say. Always. In this case, they just don't have experience using PG's in the Field.

[Shades of Green LService]

Your'e right listen to the guys that post the answer to your questions on here. I know I've talked about this b4 but here it goes again, advice is great whether it's from someone on here or a know nothing salesman but the point is these machines are one of the most basic machines you may ever buy. You can honestly take apart and rebuild or fix anything on any of the models
cowboy,centri,ultra,magnum,especially the magnum with such little wiring involved in no time at all and anyone can do it, almost anyone.

When it comes to that, i like to make sure from the people that built this $6,000 piece of equipment that i'm doing it correctly.

[PSUTURFGEEK]

which part?

[PSUTURFGEEK]

That's a very good idea, doing it correctly really helps your end results.

[Shades of Green LService]

which part?

Repairs and calibrating

[PSUTURFGEEK]

I think the most important part of being able to know and work on your machine yourself is over the years it's been very hard to find shops that work on these units for whatever reason, some don't understand the machine and some don't like dealing with the chemical exposure, and as we all know at times youre out there in the field and something goes wrong and time is money.

[CHARLES CUE]

i have never used PG but my 2 cents this subject gets a lot of talk just as long as your putting down lets say 1.1 oz per th if thats what the label calls for thats what kills the weeds not the Carrier it just there to take up space to make your job easier
just had to get into this
Charles Cue

[jspray]

With my 30 years of spraying low volume as the basis, rcreech gave the correct answer. State regulatory agencies are worried about application rates--not volumes. If you spray to make money then water is your enemy.
I am aware of university work with a Herbi CDA ultra low volume hand held applicator that showed better, quicker kill with straight giyphosate at 1 qt. per acre.

[Blink74]

I may be mistaken. It may have been the three way ester formula or something different. My point is; there are products they recommend not using in the PG for one reason or another.

I'll refer you guys to my earlier statement.

As far as Lesco goes, the one I deal with is outstanding. I do appreciate the feedback and knowledge that can be gathered here. However, it is the internet and any advise should be taken with caution. You know what they say, "99% of the internet is garbage."

The horse is officially dead.

[rcreech]

Hey....what was that....did the horse just take another breath.....? :laugh:

You know what I say Blink.....

If you think 99% of the stuff on here is garbage (which is what you are insinuating)...then don't ask questions! Because when we answer you with the CORRECT information you won't BELIEVE it anyway! :hammerhead:

As I stated...my Lesco is excellent also, but they don't know much about PG's.

Oh no...I think it might be dead now...but we will see! :laugh:

[emeraldoutdoor]

So I just installed the Cub Cadet factory 10 gallon saddle sprayer to my Lesco HP. with 40psi and 3 nozzles @4mph ground speed it will spray 3.92 gallon per acre (only .09 gallons per 1000 between all 3 nozzles)according to the data provided. Should I change nozzles for spraying RedZone, Or is that enough carrier? Should I use a sticker? Major drift issues? Like others, I have always used 2 gallons per 1000 in a 200g trucksprayer.

[jspray]

Redzone herbicide at 4 gpa and 40 psi could be a real off-target problem. Dicamba, 2,4-D esters, and carfentrazone all will float in hot weather.

My low volume set-up is with air inducted pre-orifice tips that practically reduce all fines. We spray at 20 psi. 4-5 gpa would be ok with this set-up.

We never spray volatile materials above 85 degrees and then at low pressure with drift control tips.

Hope it all came out OK. Your thread was just sent to me.




Bill J.

[emeraldoutdoor]

If it is a boomless system with off center sprays (Teejet OC) on the sides, and a extended range (teeejet XR) in the center from the factory, would all three nozzles need to be the same volume per acre, seeing that the center nozzle is covering both left and right, while the individual sides are not? I believe they would, but am having trouble thinking. The data in the manual from cub-cadet (lesco) does not measure up to tee-jet specs.

[jspray]

If all 3 tips spray the same width then each has to have same flow rate. If OC's spray twice the width then they need twice the flow rate.

Give me the number on the tips and spray widths and I can tell what is going on--also spacing of tips. Bill J.

[emeraldoutdoor]

xr 11001vb center and oc-01 angled about 15degrees up on the sides 18apart 14"from ground. I was thinking about the OC-04 for the sides (8.5gpa @3mph/5.1@5mph) and a keep the center because it is rated @ 5.9apg @5mph, but I cant find exact specs for the "VB" only the VF(very fine).

[Grandview]

So I just installed the Cub Cadet factory 10 gallon saddle sprayer to my Lesco HP. with 40psi and 3 nozzles @4mph ground speed it will spray 3.92 gallon per acre (only .09 gallons per 1000 between all 3 nozzles)according to the data provided. Should I change nozzles for spraying RedZone, Or is that enough carrier? Should I use a sticker? Major drift issues? Like others, I have always used 2 gallons per 1000 in a 200g trucksprayer.

Yes get smaller nozzles.

[Grandview]

I have sprayed 3-Way at 5 gal/acre for 20 years with no control problems. When I was using Permagreen Magnums I was able to get the small leafy weeds along the edges also.

[jspray]

I have sprayed low volume from 4-5 gpa for a lot of years using all post and pre materials you can name. We sprayed 2,000 lbs. of prodiamine at 5 gpa this season.

Carrier is not a regulatory concern--it's a.i. per ac. and if it actually landed on site. I would be concerned about nozzle design and pressure and resulting drift control in all of this.

If you are out to make a profit then water is your enemy--low volume/low drift hi-tech air inducted tips are your ally.

Please see picture of tractor with TTI11002VP air inducted pre-orifice tips that are 42" off the ground.


Bill J.

[jspray]

I would be very concerned about using these tips--yes they are matched in flow rate but very dangerous in producing fines.

Recommend using Teejet AI tips--AI11002vp in center and AIUB8502VS as off center tips. Air induction will give the excellent drift control.