Back to the basics

[Newby08]

I've noticed more and more people like me who are wanting to get into organics or just learn more about them. I would like this thread to be a place where they can get the gist of what it is all about without all the big terminology or little abbreviations. I've learned a lot, and I'm sure y'all are starting to get tired of all my questions. I am doing my own research but I think learning from experienced pros like yourselves is probably the best way to learn. So... anyone who wants to start, remember to start at the beginning and go slow. This will hopefully be a way of pointing people to the right info to get their feet wet and learn, and then go from there. Also any helpful websites or literature that can be useful as a good starting point that does not get to deep would be appreciated too.

[Newby08]

I think a good place to start is the Soil food web from what I understand and have read. This site seams to have it pretty well in laments terms so those of us new guys can start out with out too many mind blowing info. It explains things very well down to what micro organisms are and what they do.

Check it out,

http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/concepts/soil_biology/soil_food_web.html

[Newby08]

Some abbreviations that will be useful to know;

N = Nitrogen
K = Sodium
P = Potassium
Ca = Calcium
Mg = Magnesium
S = Sulfur
- check out this website to see what is used for what and why they are important http://www.agr.state.nc.us/cyber/kidswrld/plant/nutrient.htm#Nitrogen

There are many many others but I'm too tired to come up with them all so anyone else that has some feel free to post them

Thanks

[Newby08]

AHHH look at me, see, this is why I made this post lets try this again...

N = Nitrogen
K = Potassium (thats what I originally thought, don't they say to go with your initial decision?)
P = Phosphorus
Ca = Calcium
S = Sulfur

- check out this website to see what is used for what and why they are important http://www.agr.state.nc.us/cyber/kid...t.htm#Nitrogen it's still good.

[Newby08]

Oh, by the way, before we get any further...

If you are planning on doing this as a business you need to get a license, go to your local extension agency and they should be able to hook you up. Here in Ga you have to get the study materials, pass a couple of tests and I believe that's it. Then you also need to have insurance and a business license on top of that.

[Elden]

Newby, looks like you are having a nice conversation with your self. J/K Those are good link for the basics. I surely agree with everyone who wants to be in the business of applications need to be liscensed. Even w/organics there are some risk in application, and there isn't any way to regulate it except for liscening. I bet people in the business would not let their drivers liscense or vehical registration expire, so why do they think it is ok to apply with out proper liscensing. It's just crazy.

[Newby08]

lol,

What do you mean? I was talking to me and I along with myself... that's three people... talking to just myself, thats nonsense. I'm not crazy... does that face look like the face of a crazy person?

I DON"T THINK SO!

[Newby08]

when you hear about people talking about compost tea they are talking about a solution they make by "brewing" organic matter such as compost and in return they are able to derive beneficial organisms from it. CT stands for Compost Tea, AACT stands for Actively Aerated Compost Tea.

AACT has much more beneficial properties in it since it has a constant source of oxygen flowing through it to supply the microorganisms. If the air is taken away a lot of the organisms would die. AACT has to be applied usually within hours of being taken off the air source. AACT is great for both the soil and application to foliage of plants.

CT can be used as well. From what I understand it does not have as much beneficial microorganisms in it. It can be used as a drench. CT does not do as well as an application to foliage, does not stick as well.

From what I understand both are used for feeding microorganisms and for plant health. I believe both are good for strengthening a plants ability to defend against diseases.

[Newby08]

Again, if I am wrong in my postings PLEASE point it out to me so I am not giving the wrong information. Also others are more than welcome to make their own posts, please... like Elden said, I feel like I'm talking to myself and I am to new at this to feel comfortable to be posting on my own. I take it since no one has corrected me so far I must be doing alright.

Thank you.

[Newby08]

CGM...

Corn Glucose Meal, I have also heard it be called corn gluten meal, however you spell it.

Basically it is an organic preemergant, or Pre-M. CGM is high in Nitrogen and should usually be used about twice a year, depending on where you live. CGM will nuturalize the seeds and keep them from growing roots. The best way to prevent weeds in your lawn is to have a healthy thick lawn to crowd out weeds all together.

You don't want to use CGM if in the process of over seeding or reseeding, hence the keeping seeds from growing roots as stated before.

"For best results, you need to activate the CGM by watering it in the soil. Then it needs to be followed by a dry period, like about 10 to 14 days. After that, your watering should follow a weekly schedule of one inch per week, on average.

It takes about 3 weeks for the soil organisms to break down most protein meals and you should apply your AACT approximately 3 weeks after you've applied your CGM."
-Gerry Miller

good luck everyone

[Smallaxe]

[QUOTE=Newby08;2153292]
AACT has much more beneficial properties in it since it has a constant source of oxygen flowing through it to supply the microorganisms. If the air is taken away a lot of the organisms would die. AACT has to be applied usually within hours of being taken off the air source. AACT is great for both the soil and application to foliage of plants. QUOTE]

You noted here that the organisms would "die". However, microbes tend to go dormant when food runs out or something. This is done by turning into spores basically, called sporoform.

If you come across in your research - let me know why - these beneficials can't be made to sporoform and shipped in that fashion.

[Newby08]

actually your right, I didn't know that was what happened I was told they died. I think some do and some go dormant. ICT Bill I believe has a product that is basically what you are speaking of. He says that all you do is add water and go to spraying. It's still not considered AACT because I believe those organisms that need a constant supply of air are lost.

" Originally Posted by ICT Bill View Post
yes fungi go dormant as well
Yes most but not all of beneficial microorganisms are dormant, this is how we are able to have a 24 month shelf life. If they were not dormant they would eat up all of the food resourrces in the bottle and die off.

I believe AACT is a superior product when educated on how to make it properly. I do not believe there are many mow, blow and go guys on here that will take the time or effort to learn how to make AACT.

That is the niche for our products, safe and simple with repeatable results.

The science has come a long way, fungi protect a plants root often by making enzymes that either attack other pathogens or make it an undesireable place to live, think pennicillin. bacteria because of several factors, they produce a slime on their surface that keeps the area hydrated, when they live next to the root other bacteria have a hard time pushing them out, like me at the dinner table just try to come take my food it won't be easy. that is why inoculums works so well on seed, the PGPR's stay with the root and plant its entire life. Over-seeding and Hydro-seeding are excellent applications for biological inoculums.

I was just infromed by the webmaster to not post anything that would promote my products, does this site have an email feature. You could email me and I will send them to you. Our bacterial numbers are so large it skews the results somewhat, but I would be happy to send them.
You will find my email address on our web site under "investor relations"

Thanks Bill "

this is where I get what I think to be a fact... his product is dormant, put it in a tank full of water and you're good to go. But he says that AACT is a superior product which makes me think that you loose some of those beneficial organisms.

Thanks for posting, I was feeling unheard and I respect your thoughts,

[Newby08]

The above post is basically saying AACT (Actively Aerated Compost Tea) has many microorganisms that are very beneficial to the soil. From what I understand a lot of these beneficial organisms will die if not given a constant supply of air. Some however will go dormant which leads to the product that ICT Bill has come up with. This is dormant fungi and microorganisms that he has packaged and you can purchase to throw in a tank of water and have an instant form of Compost Tea (CT).

[Newby08]

Now onto the base of all this organic stuff that you need to understand.
I still am not 100% sure of everything involved with it or what all it means. For the most part it all is based on the same theory as the cycle of life kind of. This eats this, this eats this, this poops and feeds this, and that poops something else that feeds this that is food for that... and on and on it goes.
That's about all I feel comfortable saying about that.

Here is a good website that will take you through it step by step and explains everything in laments terms for the most part, if not it breaks down the confusing stuff pretty good.

http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/concepts/soil_biology/soil_food_web.html

check it out. There are many many people here that know how it all works a lot better than I do but at least I can point you in the right direction.

[Newby08]

Lets go over the equipment, I know we are jumping around but just bear with me, I'm trying to label these so you can sort through them a little better.

Obviously you need a truck... or trailer. This is more or less a personal preference. From what I understand if your wanting to carry a tank in the back of your truck with it loaded and all you need to get something at least the size of a 2500. I originally was thinking of using a utility van like you see some companies using but after considering the fact that I would be in an enclosed vehicle with possible harmful chems. Just doesn't sound that good to me. I know that there are certain vans with partitions between you and the cab but it still just doesn't seem that practical. I was liking the idea because of the rolling billboard that you had.

You will need some spreaders... they are everywhere, just shop around and find what is best for you. Just remember that this is all about time and efficiency so I wouldn't go buy any small homeowner versions.

Sprayers... there are many types and sizes. You can start by going all out and getting a large 100+ gallon tank sprayer for your truck or trailer but that gets a little pricey. I personally am going to use a back pack sprayer until it is absolutely necessary to get a large sprayer which will be nice down the road. The fact of the matter is that I'm pretty sure just about everything can be done in a granular form except maybe AACT or CT. All ferts and feeds should be used as in a spreader. (*again, please correct me if I'm wrong*)

Again, that is my personal opinion.

AACT brewers and CT brewers to me are something for the future, if I can get a pre-made tea like mentioned in a previous post I think I will stick to that along with compost. Although those items will be great to have on hand and being able to produce them yourself it takes a lot of time, knowledge and money.

soil testing equip definitly couldn't hurt either... you can have it sent off with your local extension agency for a nominal fee.

good luck, I'm sure there is much more equip out there that I'm forgetting and maybe even something obvious so just have fun with it, and let's make some money,

[DUSTYCEDAR]

i like your enthusiasm

[Newby08]

OK, 13 out of 15 posts are made by me and yet there are 76 views... someone please say something... even if it is just the fact that this might be somewhat helpful.

Either way I'm going to keep posting cause it's helping me find out what I know and learn more to spread, so thanks for at least looking,

[Newby08]

LOL, I appreciate it

HAHAHAHA

[Smallaxe]

Speaking of the equipment, what do you envision for spreading compost? If your market doesn't want that much compost, you will never pay for the machine. Plus it is oversized with its own motor which becomes a storage issue. If you come up with a reasonable spreader let us know :)
I think alot of that stuff is made for golf courses and such.

One more point about compost tea. The AACT is only as good as the compost correct? I have noticed a number of posts throughout the web lamenting the lack of good compost in their area. Making compost is time consuming and a person can still fail. People who have the knack and do it well, always say, "Nothing to it!", but I have experienced only failure and I do not know anyone personally doing it successfully. We have composted manure by the bag and that is it.

I said all that for another question. Have you found a source for good compost that can grow all the beneficials over and over again, by keeping them fed and aerated? You know like yogurt or friendship cake.

You are doing fine with this thread. It is like, thinking out loud, to verify that we are thinking coherently. Lots of people do that to avoid silly errors and oversights.

[ICT Bill]

I have found that I learn much more by teaching then sitting on the other side.

Compost teas are like lawn mowers, if I have a small yard I may buy a manual push mower, if I am a golf course super I will want something much bigger.They are both lawn mowers they just are used for different applications.

Compost teas can be manipulated in many different ways in order to produce a good to great end result. add humates to promote the growth of fungi, add molasses to promote bacterial growth. When seeding add a mycorrhizal package at the end. add ecto mycorrhizae for tree and shrub applications, add surfactants for better penetration ito the soil, etc

There are also different ways to make compost teas, some believe (EM) that promoting anaerobic microrganisms (not a soil food web theory) is the way to go and they have lots of data to back them up. Some believe that its the aerobes that are the best to support.

Some make compost teas that are actively aerated. Some use an extraction method to make their form of compost tea. With AACT all of the soldiers are standing at attention and are ready to go. with extraction all of the same soldiers are there and ready to go, they just need a little food and water before the fight.
AACT's application is for disease suppresion, foliar feeding and to support all of the good guys in the soil (there are more). extraction is not used for disease suppression but to build soil health and support all of the good guys in the soil (there are more). I can apply extracted compost tea anytime I would like to because most of the microbes are dormant, AACT is very sensitive to UV rays so it is generally applied in the morning or late afternoon.

If I have crews out spraying and doing this for a living I would probably use dormant biology so that it can be sprayed anytime during the day. If I am doing it in my backyard I would probably use AACT. Todd Harrington (now Safelawns) who has been doing this for close to 20 years uses extraction as well as most of the farming community, but for disease suppression he uses AACT

It is all about the application and what you are using it for

Who's right and who's wrong, I don't believe there is an answer to that question, their all right, I would think, maybe, kinda, sorta

[DUSTYCEDAR]

nice post bill

[Newby08]

thanks,

I am still looking for a good compost supplier, I have a few possibles. I did see a website that someone had posted for a vermacompost, I'm not too versed on how that works most people seem to go for the regular heated compost piles. This system seems to be easily set up and maintained... http://wormwigwam.com/large_systems.htm... check it out. One person said the hardest part was keeping them fed, not sure what all is involved in that but as long as you have the proper food it shouldn't be that hard I wouldn't think. It's kind of expensive but if you can get those worm castings that everyone speaks of then it should be pretty beneficial. And from what I understand depending on the size you get it seems to put out a good bit of finished product.
I'm no where near that point in business but it is definitely something that I am interested down the road, not only for the castings but I think it would be kind of fun too.
Right now, most of the lawns in my immediate area are small enough to use a 5 gallon bucket and the tools God equipped me with, my hands, until I can find out what the market is for compost. I saw one guy say that he puts out compost in replacement of a fert app and charges the same amount. I haven't been able to run the numbers on what compost will cost me, mainly because I haven't been able to find me a good supplier, but I would initially think that the compost will be a good bit more costly to me per 1000 sq ft, and then that will naturally be passed on to the customer. I do think that I will be able to talk most of my customers into it at least at the beginning of the year for the first few years. Ideally I would like to be able to put it down maybe twice a year. After that I would think that it could be slowed down to every other year or even longer depending on how each lawn holds up.
From what I have studied on the AACT yes, the tea is only as good as the compost you put in it. You want to make sure that the compost is well finished or else you run the risk of growing both good and bad bacteria such as E-coli. Some companies sell "tea bags" that are measured out amounts of good compost that they have test results on showing the microbiological life that is typically inside.
The compost that you are getting by the bag from what I understand is about as good as what you have been failing at. From what I understand there is very little microbiological life in them as they have not received any air or nutrients for some time. I would check out all your local landscape supply companies in your area or even around your state. I have considered traveling south of Atlanta if it means getting good compost to use for my customers which could be up to a two hour trip one way. Sometimes you just have to go to where the good stuff is if it won't come to you.
Those compost spreaders you are speaking of do seem large and cumbersome. But I have to think if I have a lawn anywhere above 1/2 acre then I don't think one of those would be too bad to have around, time cost money and that would save a lot of time. I am however going to be looking around and messing with some of my own spreaders to see what I can come up with. The only thought I have about the normal spreader is that it is used for broadcasting, with compost you want a good bit on the ground, about 1/2 inch I believe for a good top dress, I don't see these broadcast sprayers being able to put down that much compost when you look at the amount of fert it throws out. Basically you will need something with a sort of chute and a door that will funnel the compost through a slot in the bottom, dropping it straight to the ground but in a uniform manner. It will be interesting to see what I can come up with.

Good luck,

[Newby08]

This is from the second thread from the top in organic lawn care called "Sticky: Compost FAQs"...

As requested, here is my recipe for home composting.

Mulching (leaving things in layers) is easier than "piling"
organic residues, but there is a place for passive compost
piles as well. But for those who desire to make an active,
hot, compost pile that is ready for curing in three to four
weeks, here is my tried and true formula for cooking hot
compost.

Active composting is a BATCH process. It differs from passive
piles that just sit there or continuous flow systems where
stuff is periodically dumped on top of the material already in
the bin.

1. PREPARE THE AREA: Avoid walls and fences that can rot and
discolor. Stay within reach of the hose. Choose a spot away
>from drainage swales and roof overflow. Avoid low spots where
water can stand or pond. Leave plenty of room to access with
pitch fork and wheel barrow. The area should be from 6'x6' up
to 12'x9'.

2. CHOOSE YOUR BIN. Small yards use enclosed plastic,
preferably insulated bins. Large yards use larger open air
designs without covers. Large doors are better than small ones.
Three stage systems are best, but only one, maybe two bins are
active at any given time. The three stages are stockpiling,
active composting, and curing. Curing piles do not need bins.

3. STOCKPILING: Since active composting is a batch process, it
requires a full bin of material and this usually requires
stockpiling. Materials easy to store include leaves, wood
mulch, pine needles and cones, old compost, and shredded paper.

4. INOCULATING: Active composting is helped by adding old
compost or leaf mould as an inoculant. This can range from 10%
up to 50% from the curing pile or the still-cooking, last
batch. Avoid soil except as a last resort. Use bagged compost
or manure if starting for the first time. Packaged inoculants
do no harm, and may even help, but are not a substitute for old
compost.

5.MIXING and 6. WATERING: Layer your various ingredients
OUTSIDE THE BIN, watering each layer as you go. Think "Green
and Brown". Add 10% bulky matter like wood chips to keep the
pile loose to avoid matting. THEN fork the layers into the bin,
mixing as you go, blending wet with dry, watering as necessary.
Water like a seed bed, avoiding runoff. The mix should end up
50% moisture like a damp sponge. Now and during the 3 weeks of
active composting is the time to add table scraps. Avoid adding
lime, it can disturb the natural pH shift and delay
decomposition.

7. AERATE: Like any other form of livestock, your "herd" of
bacteria needs food, air, and water. You have added food with a
balance of carbon and nitrogen, which is the green and brown.
You just added water. Now the bacteria need air. Old compost
theory suggests that you "turn the pile for aeration; recent
studies show that a pile uses up its oxygen in as little as 1/2
hour after turning.

Like a barbecue or a fireplace grate, a pile needs ventilation.
This is provided through a passive aeration base. Some use
brush, stalks, screen on boards, rocks, wood chips, flat
aeration pipe, other mechanism to let air infiltrate at the
base from outside. The air will rise up due to the convection,
chimney effect, of warm air rising. With wood chips added, the
pile will self aerate with an aeration grate without turning.
Poking the pile from the top down to the base with a piece of
rebar or 1/4" rod every 6" will break up mats and provide extra
air channels.

The pile will begin active composting within 48 hours and cook
by itself. You can help the process by mixing at least once
after a week, sort of like stirring the coals, adding moisture
as necessary. When it is not frozen outside, I make a compost
batch every 2 weeks, often using half cooked compost from two
weeks previously to mix with the fresh grass clippings.
Personally, I bag my grass because I like making and using
compost, but letting the clippings lie is a fine way to avoid
the effort of active composting.

Follow these steps toward batch composting and you will see the
pile heat and cook, giving off the steam of life as it
decomposes. I think everyone should experience the pleasure of
having a compost pile cook well at least *once* in their lives.

Two last tips, *underwatering* is the largest single cause of
slow composting. Piles in *standing* water is the number one
cause of odors.

Have fun!

Mr Compost~~~

Jim~ McNelly
Granite Connection 612-259-0801
jim.mcnelly@granite.mn.org

[Newby08]

Good job of explaining it Bill, that made a lot of sense.

Appreciate it,

[Kiril]

nice post bill

Ditto, excellent summary. :clapping:

[Newby08]

You can look up organic materials online and there will be quite few companies that say they have organic material. Something to watch out for though is if they say that their products are "organic based" then chances are that their products are not exactly 100% organic. They can be a mix of organic and synthetic. One flag that I notice when I am looking at peoples products that claim to be organic is that when they show the the NKP levels. If they are really high then chances are that they have added something to the product and it is not going to be completely organic. I have mainly seen completely organic materials max out at about in the 10's. The N is usually the first one that gives it away. I was going to say that the highest level I've seen with N was a 9 but I was looking at this chart, http://www.primalseeds.org/npk.htm, and it says that feathers have a level of 15.30 and hair has a level of 14. Yummy. So I am wrong, but I have never heard of either of these being used in the landscape.

Now don't get me wrong... sometimes synthetic chemicals can have their place... in rare occasions. That really falls on how patient you are and what your tolerance levels may be for certain things like weeds.
For instance:
Lets say you want to keep any new weeds from growing in your lawn or better yet you already have weeds in your lawn as I do right this second. You want to get rid of them and the options you have that I know of so far is Corn Gluten Meal (CGM) for a pre-M, which I have found is not that easy to come by, and a strong dilution of white vinegar, this is non-selective being it will kill anything. You don't mind the idea of using these items and you can pick up vinegar at the local grocery store. CGM though is not that easy to come by and you can't find anyone that supplies it. Well, I guess you could go and by some Pre-M from the local nursery such as Pike, or you can also go with one of these "hybrid" formulas that I was previously talking about.

Everything seems to have its purpose and place. I for instance with my company will be advertising that I am an organic based company. Therefore if I get an impatient customer who wants their lawn treated and see results faster than organics provide I will be able to accommodate them in that. But for the most part I'm planning on using chems that you can eat as long as they perform well for me. That way my guys will be able to munch as they work and hopefully they can work quicker. And then there is also water to drink. Hehehehe.

Good luck,

[ICT Bill]

Hey Newb, you have over 200 posts now so you will have to change your name to pewb. you are now offically in puberty

[Newby08]

lol, i didnt know I had that many.

[jeffinsgf]

Uh, newb... do you understand the term pre-emergent?

Lets say you want to keep any new weeds from growing in your lawn or better yet you already have weeds in your lawn as I do right this second. You want to get rid of them and the options you have that I know of so far is Corn Gluten Meal (CGM) for a pre-M,...

Pre-emergent means before the weed has sprouted. If you already have weeds, a pre-em, organic or not, is not going to do you one bit of good. I also am not sure that CGM has been shown to have any pre-em benefits on anything except crabgrass, and from personal experience I can tell you it is outrageously expensive and only moderately effective. CGM has to be applied within a few days (a couple weeks at best) of the weed seed's attempt to sprout, or it will have no effect. All it does to weeds that have already sprouted is fertilize them.

Vinegar, by the way is non-selective -- that is, it kills pretty much anything green that you pour it on, meaning if you use it to kill weeds, it will kill the adjoining turf around the weed (think brown polka-dots).

And, I am not trying to embarrass you, just keep you from doing it to yourself further....it's "laymen's terms" not "lament's terms".

[Smallaxe]

thanks,

I am still looking for a good compost supplier, I have a few possibles. I did see a website that someone had posted for a vermacompost, I'm not too versed on how that works most people seem to go for the regular heated compost piles. This system seems to be easily set up and maintained... http://wormwigwam.com/large_systems.htm... check it out. One person said the hardest part was keeping them fed, not sure what all is involved in that but as long as you have the proper food it shouldn't be that hard I wouldn't think. It's kind of expensive but if you can get those worm castings that everyone speaks of then it should be pretty beneficial. And from what I understand depending on the size you get it seems to put out a good bit of finished product.
I'm no where near that point in business but it is definitely something that I am interested down the road, not only for the castings but I think it would be kind of fun too.
Right now, most of the lawns in my immediate area are small enough to use a 5 gallon bucket and the tools God equipped me with, my hands, until I can find out what the market is for compost. I saw one guy say that he puts out compost in replacement of a fert app and charges the same amount. I haven't been able to run the numbers on what compost will cost me, mainly because I haven't been able to find me a good supplier, but I would initially think that the compost will be a good bit more costly to me per 1000 sq ft, and then that will naturally be passed on to the customer. I do think that I will be able to talk most of my customers into it at least at the beginning of the year for the first few years. Ideally I would like to be able to put it down maybe twice a year. After that I would think that it could be slowed down to every other year or even longer depending on how each lawn holds up.
From what I have studied on the AACT yes, the tea is only as good as the compost you put in it. You want to make sure that the compost is well finished or else you run the risk of growing both good and bad bacteria such as E-coli. Some companies sell "tea bags" that are measured out amounts of good compost that they have test results on showing the microbiological life that is typically inside.
The compost that you are getting by the bag from what I understand is about as good as what you have been failing at. From what I understand there is very little microbiological life in them as they have not received any air or nutrients for some time. I would check out all your local landscape supply companies in your area or even around your state. I have considered traveling south of Atlanta if it means getting good compost to use for my customers which could be up to a two hour trip one way. Sometimes you just have to go to where the good stuff is if it won't come to you.
Those compost spreaders you are speaking of do seem large and cumbersome. But I have to think if I have a lawn anywhere above 1/2 acre then I don't think one of those would be too bad to have around, time cost money and that would save a lot of time. I am however going to be looking around and messing with some of my own spreaders to see what I can come up with. The only thought I have about the normal spreader is that it is used for broadcasting, with compost you want a good bit on the ground, about 1/2 inch I believe for a good top dress, I don't see these broadcast sprayers being able to put down that much compost when you look at the amount of fert it throws out. Basically you will need something with a sort of chute and a door that will funnel the compost through a slot in the bottom, dropping it straight to the ground but in a uniform manner. It will be interesting to see what I can come up with.

Good luck,

The only fert I do for 1 lawn, is a gallon of liquid for $13.95. I figured if I covered the same lawn with 7 bags of compost for 2 bucks a pop that would be pretty good coverage. Maybe not a 1/2 inch, but it will help build the environment to digest the grass clippings much better. So the numbers on the product are pretty even depending on how much you need to apply.
The only reason I apply NPK anymore is to check and see if there are deficiencies that will show up in streaks of my application designs.

I believe that you are thinking, when you figure the need for new compost dwindles as time goes by. With straight clay or straight sand you may always want to apply at least once a year. With the loam mixture with good OM you may get by with every other year.

Thanks for filling me in on the "tea bags". This would mean that, if the good compost was being brewed in a nutrient rich, aerated environment, the microbes are growing and multiplying in the tea. They are however, still resident in the solids of the original brew bags. Let them hang to dry and (all?) the beneficials go dormant and can be shipped if not left in the plastic bag too long. Now that is a system that can be used by LCOs like me :)

Just open the package, fill up the brewer bags in my brewer with the correct compost, add the nutrients to the water, turn it on 'x' number of hours before I want to apply.
Thanks again.

Good luck finding good compost south of Atlanta. I was 5 hrs south of Atlanta in sand country during January. I checked the compost wherever I found it and most of the weight was sand in the bags. It was all from dairy farms and they use sand for 'bedding'.
If I get to go again next year I am going to do some exploring in clay country to find decent ammendments.

I agree that some of those compost spreaders look right handy and would be worth the investment IF you are able to have enough jobs that are large enough. I hope we both end up buying one before the end of the season :)

[Newby08]

Uh, newb... do you understand the term pre-emergent?



Pre-emergent means before the weed has sprouted. If you already have weeds, a pre-em, organic or not, is not going to do you one bit of good. I also am not sure that CGM has been shown to have any pre-em benefits on anything except crabgrass, and from personal experience I can tell you it is outrageously expensive and only moderately effective. CGM has to be applied within a few days (a couple weeks at best) of the weed seed's attempt to sprout, or it will have no effect. All it does to weeds that have already sprouted is fertilize them.

Vinegar, by the way is non-selective -- that is, it kills pretty much anything green that you pour it on, meaning if you use it to kill weeds, it will kill the adjoining turf around the weed (think brown polka-dots).

And, I am not trying to embarrass you, just keep you from doing it to yourself further....it's "laymen's terms" not "lament's terms".



Alright Jeff, this is suppose to be an informative thread for new guys, not a bash the new guy doing the thread but help him along.
Now... I do know what pre-M is and what it is for. Corn gluten is suppose to last for sometime keeping seeds from rooting. Yes it is true that if you currently have weeds that it will have no effect on them. I don't think I ever said it would. What I was getting at was that you put the CGM down and it should prevent any new seeds from germinating. The vinegar is a nonselective herbicide. I believe I had already mentioned that also. That does mean it will kill anything similar to Round Up. Maybe I wasn't as clear as I should have been and thankyou for pointing that out, so let me do this again.

CGM (Corn Gluten Meal)
CGM is a organic pre-M. It will keep seeds from germinating. You do not want to use CGM if you are planning on overseeding/ reseeding in the near future. I have found that it is hard to find CGM in my local area, I would suggest calling your local feed stores as it is used as a feed for cattle. CGM has been trademarked as an organic pre-M in the past. Therefore you may also be able to find it in some organic supplier stores. This form of CGM, which is the same as CGM used for cattle feed, is much more expensive in that it is branded to be used as a pre-M. If you can find it at a feed store being sold as a feed then it will be much cheaper.
CGM will not kill existing weeds. It will only prevent new seeds from growing roots. It is a little higher in N also so you may want to be careful as to how many times you put down each year on certain lawns. I have read that CGM has had an effect on weeds other than crabgrass. I am unable to track down all the mentioned weeds at this time.
Again, the best way to prevent weeds in your lawn is to keep your lawn healthy and thick. Proper cutting hieght and watering are your to best keys to keeping weeds from showing.

White Vinegar,
White Vinegar is said to be a non-selective herbicide. This means that it will kill anything. When I suggested using this to control weeds I was meaning to use it very carefully making sure to only apply it to the plants that are needing to be killed. Just spray the mixture on the leaf of the plant and try not to get it on anything else. White Vinegar also has been noted to be used I believe for lowering the ph levels in soil. This however from what I understand is not a longterm fix and is not generally suggested.

Lamen's terms, when it is typed into my computer it tells me that the spelling is wrong. When I ask it what the correct spelling is it pulls up lament's. This to me seemed to be wrong in that the first spelling was correct but I was taking the computers advice. That is why I have been spelling it the way that I have been.

If you have any other thoughts, questions or comments about any posts please feel free to ask or make your own notes about a subject. I am all about talking things through just as me and Small had been about the compost and AACT. We are all here to learn and share our knowledge. When I started this thread I made it clear as with all my signatures that I am new to organics and lawn chemicals in general. I have learned a lot but am still learning. When I started looking into things it was hard to track down the basic info needed to get my feet wet in this field which required me to ask many many questions as many of the people here can attest to. Some I'm sure were getting quite annoyed with me. This is my way of sharing what I have learned so that others new to the business may have an easier time learning more about this way of treating their lawns. I'm sorry if some of my info is incorrect or not explained very well.

I DONT KNOW EVERYTHING, never said I did, actually I have said many times that I don't know anything. I'm just trying to help out. ANYONE is welcome to post any comments or thoughts. Again, if you feel I am wrong please let me know and give your thoughts of the situation. I'm not here to fight with anyone about whether I am right or wrong, chances are I'm probably going to be the one that is wrong. I am just trying to help in general. If I don't know the answer to a question or you feel that I am wrong PLEASE let me know so I can do further research and talk to the more experienced people on this site so that I am sure you will have the most correct up to date info possible.

Thankyou,

[Smallaxe]

Don't let it get to you. lol. They say attitude isn't everything - its the only thing. Without the 'y' in laymen the computer had no other categories to look under.

I have another question though... Why white vinegar? I just look for 5% acid on the label and pick it up whether brown or white.

[Newby08]

That is just what I have read, when someone said vinegar it seemed kind of vague so I looked for a more specific kind. White is what came up. I haven't used it yet but I plan to shortly.

[tadhussey]

I have found that I learn much more by teaching then sitting on the other side.

Compost teas are like lawn mowers, if I have a small yard I may buy a manual push mower, if I am a golf course super I will want something much bigger.They are both lawn mowers they just are used for different applications.

Compost teas can be manipulated in many different ways in order to produce a good to great end result. add humates to promote the growth of fungi, add molasses to promote bacterial growth. When seeding add a mycorrhizal package at the end. add ecto mycorrhizae for tree and shrub applications, add surfactants for better penetration ito the soil, etc

There are also different ways to make compost teas, some believe (EM) that promoting anaerobic microrganisms (not a soil food web theory) is the way to go and they have lots of data to back them up. Some believe that its the aerobes that are the best to support.

Some make compost teas that are actively aerated. Some use an extraction method to make their form of compost tea. With AACT all of the soldiers are standing at attention and are ready to go. with extraction all of the same soldiers are there and ready to go, they just need a little food and water before the fight.
AACT's application is for disease suppresion, foliar feeding and to support all of the good guys in the soil (there are more). extraction is not used for disease suppression but to build soil health and support all of the good guys in the soil (there are more). I can apply extracted compost tea anytime I would like to because most of the microbes are dormant, AACT is very sensitive to UV rays so it is generally applied in the morning or late afternoon.

If I have crews out spraying and doing this for a living I would probably use dormant biology so that it can be sprayed anytime during the day. If I am doing it in my backyard I would probably use AACT. Todd Harrington (now Safelawns) who has been doing this for close to 20 years uses extraction as well as most of the farming community, but for disease suppression he uses AACT

It is all about the application and what you are using it for

Who's right and who's wrong, I don't believe there is an answer to that question, their all right, I would think, maybe, kinda, sorta


Just read through this thread and wanted to comment. I might have missed some things though, so I apologize if I repeat something previously mentioned.

1. From talking with Dr. Ingham, my understanding is that you can spray AACT throughout the day without UV being an issue, provided your droplet size is not too small (I'll have to go back and find the exact info., but I remember thinking that it was quite reasonable).

2. We ship our compost in burlap bags for the very reasons listed in this thread. It's important that the compost stays aerobic for these organisms. A good local source that's tested it's product would be best, provided they've done biological testing and can share that info.

3. EM products are definitely worth looking into. We use some EM products in our kits and we've found that they seem to enhance the disease suppresive abilities in our teas. We can't afford to do clinical trials on this, but the feedback we've gotten from growers and homeowners, and the lab tests (which show larger diameter fungal hyphae) seem to support this. I can't see a lot different under a microscope when comparing 2 brews (one with EM, one without), but they seem to play a role in the soil after applying.

4. Making AACT is not a complicated process. Granted, there are a lot of variables to consider, but what you have the process down it becomes quite simple. If you bought a commercial brewer, it should be taken care of for you. All you do is dechlorinate the water, drop in the compost and foods, and then apply the finished tea (and clean out the brewer). I think the benefit far exceeds the time and trouble.

5. I think there is a niche for products like what Bill offers. Maybe it's an interim product for people first considering biological amendments before they begin to use AACT. It also has the advantage of convenience and a shelf life. However, there are many purported "instant compost teas" on the market and they are NOT equal in quality or consistency. While I haven't tried or tested Bill's product (want to send me a sample? :0 ), I do like the fact that his company has done testing on it and that he seems well-educated (and nice guy).

It pays to do your research when considering any commercial products. Good luck, and good thread!!!

~Tad

[Newby08]

Thank you for your input it is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

[ICT Bill]

3. EM products are definitely worth looking into. We use some EM products in our kits and we've found that they seem to enhance the disease suppresive abilities in our teas. We can't afford to do clinical trials on this, but the feedback we've gotten from growers and homeowners, and the lab tests (which show larger diameter fungal hyphae) seem to support this. I can't see a lot different under a microscope when comparing 2 brews (one with EM, one without), but they seem to play a role in the soil after applying.

I don't know a lot about this process, at first glance it would seem counterinuitive. From everything I have learned it is the anaerobes that are typically pathogenic, but in practice it may be something different

Tad, We have just finalized testing on our new batch (version 2.1) and it is some great stuff, as soon as I get it in the plant for bottling I'll send you a sample if you'll pay the freight, typically $8.

[tadhussey]

I don't know a lot about this process, at first glance it would seem counterinuitive. From everything I have learned it is the anaerobes that are typically pathogenic, but in practice it may be something different

Tad, We have just finalized testing on our new batch (version 2.1) and it is some great stuff, as soon as I get it in the plant for bottling I'll send you a sample if you'll pay the freight, typically $8.

Sounds good, I don't need very much, just enough to play around in a test tube with. Maybe enough to make a gallon of tea? I'll post the microscope results for you guys if that's okay with Bill. Send me a PM when your next batch is completed. Thanks!

~Tad

[Newby08]

Hey Bill,
I appreciate your posts and input very much. I was wandering if you, or Tad, could explain for us what EM is. I like how you broke down what AACT can be used for and what the extracted version is used for and the differences. Very well put. Could you also explain why UV rays might effect AACT?

Thanks again, both of your inputs are always greatly appreciated.

[Kiril]

I was wondering if you, or Tad, could explain for us what EM is.

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=208939&highlight=ecto

[NattyLawn]

Kiril, I think Tad's talking about Effective Microorganisms. I think the key to EM is the phototrophic bacteria, meaning the sun doesn't effect it.

Cut and paste from: http://www.eco-organics.com.au/em.html
EM Technology

EM is a natural, probiotic technology developed for over 25 years around the world. It is based on beneficial and effective microorganisms ("EM"). The microbes in EM are non-harmful, non-pathogenic, not-genetically-engineered or modified (non-GMO), and not chemically-synthesized. The basic groups of microorganisms in EM are lactic acid bacteria (commonly found in yogurt, cheeses), yeast (bread, beer), and phototrophic bacteria ("cousins" of blue-green algae).

The concept behind beneficial and effective microorganisms ("EM") technology, was developed by Professor Teruo Higa, at the University of Ryukyus, Okinawa, Japan. Dr. Higa is also the author of an Earth Saving Revolution I & II.

History of EM
Throughout the 1970s and 80s Dr. Higa pioneered the research that led to the development and commercialization of EM technology. This natural biotechnology has since been successfully commercialised throughout world markets in human health, agriculture, livestock and industrial waste treatment. Thousands of research and efficacy studies have been conducted and documented in projects, conferences and books around the world.

Originally, EM was developed for use in agriculture (crop farming) as an alternative to agricultural chemicals such as pesticides and fertilizers. EM however is not a conventional fertiliser and unlike the purpose of fertilisers, the purpose of EM is to increase the number of beneficial microorganisms in the soil. This improves the soil's microbial health and promotes a healthy environment for plants, recognising the principle that microbial diversity and organic material combine to produce healthy soils, and therefore healthy plants. EM can also be used as a processing tool to manufacture organic fertilisers.

From crop farming, its application flowed naturally into livestock. Outside the U.S., EM is actively used in livestock operations, including hog, cattle/dairy, and poultry. From livestock, the positive effects on the livestock waste and effluent into lagoons and rivers led to the use of EM for environmental purposes: from land/soil remediation to water purification. EM environmental applications throughout the world have included cleaning polluted waterways, lakes and lagoons, in septic systems, municipal wastewater treatment plants, and landfills/dump sites. As EM became used extensively in livestock, research began into its use as a functional food supplement for human health. It was discovered that EM exhibits very beneficial effects as an antioxidant and probiotic on the digestive system.

The principal microorganisms in EM are:

A. Photosynthetic Bacteria

The photosynthetic or phototropic bacteria are a group of independent, self supporting microbes. These bacteria synthesise useful substances from secretions of roots, organic matter and/or harmful gases (eg. hydrogen sulphide), by using sunlight and the heat of soil as sources of energy. Useful substances developed by these microbes include amino acids, nucleic acids, bioactive substances and sugars, all of which promote plant growth and development. The metabolites developed by these microorganisms are absorbed directly into plants and act as substrates for increasing beneficial populations.

B. Lactic acid bacteria

Lactic acid bacteria produce lactic acid from sugars and other carbohydrates, developed by photosynthetic bacteria and yeast. Therefore, some foods and drinks such as yogurt and pickles have been made with lactic acid bacteria for decades. However, lactic acid is a strong sterilizing compound, and suppresses harmful microorganisms and enhances decomposition of organic matter. Moreover, lactic acid bacteria promote the decomposition of material such as lignin and cellulose and ferments these materials, thereby removing undesirable effects of undecomposed organic matter. Lactic acid bacteria have the ability to suppress disease-inducing microorganisms such as Fusarium, which occur in continuous cropping programs. Under normal circumstances, species such as Fusarium weaken crop plants, thereby exposing plants to diseases and increased pest populations such as root-feeding nematodes. The use of lactic acid bacteria reduces root-feeding nematode populations and controls propagation and spread of Fusarium, thereby inducing a better environment for crop growth.

C. Yeast

Yeasts synthesise antimicrobial and other useful substances required for plant growth from amino acids and sugars secreted by photosynthetic bacteria, organic matter and plant roots. The bioactive substances such as hormones and enzymes produced by yeasts promote active cell and root division. These secretions are also useful substrates for effective microbes such as lactic acid bacteria and actinomycetes.

Summary

The different species of effective microorganisms (Photosynthetic, Lactic acid bacteria and Yeast) have their respective functions. However, photosynthetic bacteria could be considered the focus of EM activity. Photosynthetic bacteria support the activities of the other microbes. This phenomenon is termed "Coexistence" and "Coprosperity".

The enhancement of populations of EM in soils by its application promotes the development of existing beneficial soil microorganisms. Thus, the micro-flora of the soil becomes abundant; thereby the soil develops a well-balanced microbial system. In this process harmful species are suppressed, thereby reducing microbial species that cause soil born diseases. This results in plants growing exceptionally well in soils which are dominated by beneficial and effective microorganisms. Use of EM improves soil conditions resulting in greater yields, and healthier more nutritious plants.


Target Industries

Probiotic Dietary Supplement

Human Health – EM technology can be formulated to harness the beneficial microorganisms in the body for digestive health, reducing the severity and development of chronic colon diseases. Extracts of EM have been developed to contain very high antioxidant properties for stimulating the immune system and scavenging disease causing free radicals. Examples of products to market include:

• Probiotic Supplement – Contains live microorganisms for daily consumption to restore and maintain digestive health, as well as, natural bioactive substances to boost the immune system and digestive health. Herbs and/or berries can be added to increase effects. To date, such products are not available in Australia.

• Antioxidant Supplement – Unique extracts of natural foods and our proprietary EM fermentation process result in supplements that are high in anti-oxidative properties and bioactive substances. Used as a daily supplement to boost the immune system, to increase resistance to disease/stress and to supplement your body's daily nutritional needs.

Animal Health – EM technology is used to significantly reduce the need for pharmaceutical antibiotics and growth hormones, while increasing the health in livestock and improving the bottom line for farmers. In addition, EM turns toxic livestock waste that contaminates air and groundwater into valuable organic compost and livestock feed.

Organic Microbial Inoculants

Home Gardening – EM replaces chemical agents and fertilizers with natural products for pest management, composting and fertilization. These alternatives are completely non-toxic, certified organic and are more sustainable and safe for the environment and human health.


• Liquid Garden Spray – A convenient microbial inoculant used to enhance soil fertility and plant growth. Can be attached to the end of a garden hose and sprayed directly on plants.

• Organic Fertilizer – Powerful all natural fertilizer containing live microbes that actually continue producing plant food in the soil. Can be sprinkled on house plants, garden beds and lawns.

• Natural Pest Control – Microbial extracts which keep insects away from the garden without toxic chemicals.



Commercial Agriculture – EM is an effective management tool that improves the bottom line for farmers while also improving the environment. EM can be used as an in put in certified organic agriculture. The technology has been adopted by numerous Asian governments in the national agricultural programs and has been proven to:

• Enhance plant growth
• Increase soil fertility
• Decrease fungal and bacterial disease
• Increase vitamin content of plants
• Increase shelf-life stability of products after harvest
• Decrease erosion

Bio-Augmentation Solutions – Waste Treatment

Wastewater – Most industrial processes produce wastewater as a byproduct. Whether it is a livestock operation, food processing plant, oil refinery or municipal sewage facility, EM is effective and practicable for reducing biological oxygen demand (BOD), chemical oxygen demand (COD), controlling odors and acting as a flocculent.

Composting – Yard and food wastes make up approximately 30% of the waste stream in the United States. Composting most of these waste streams would reduce the amount of Municipal Solid Waste requiring disposal by almost one fourth, while at the same time provide a nutrient-rich soil amendment. EM-based products formulated with composting in mind will not only decrease composting times but it will also add to the nutritive properties on the compost when applied to soils (i.e. improved soil structure, texture, aeration, and water retention).

EM Applications


Based on research and development activities in many countries, EM is increasingly viewed as a means of providing solutions to many problems of food production, depeltion of natural resources, environmental pollution, food safety and nutrition, and human and animal health.

EM products have been used successfully to:

• Improve soil quality and the growth, yield and quality of crops
• Suppress malodors associated with livestock production
• Enhance the growth and market weight of swine and poultry when used as a probiotic food additive
• Improve the quality and shelf-life of fruits and vegetables
• Improve the process technology for composting municipal waste (i.e.,garbage) and kitchen waste into high quality soil conditioner and biofertilizer
• Improve the process technology for recycling other waste materials including plastics, paper, rubber, and textiles
• Enhance human and animal health through the use of EM as a probiotic
• And around the house, EM can be used for household cleaner, for use in kitchens, bathrooms, laundry equipment and to assist in the control of pet odors and waste.



Note: SCD and Eco Organics are not sponsored by or officially affiliated with Dr. Higa, EM Research Organization or any of their affiliates.

[Kiril]

Kiril, I think Tad's talking about Effective Microorganisms.

:laugh: My bad :hammerhead:

[Newby08]

Nice job, I appreciate it. I tried to do a search on the forum but that always brings up so much stuff it's hard for me to find anything useful a lot of times. I guess it will take a little getting use to.

Thanks again,

[tadhussey]

Thanks Natty,

We're heading into our largest trade show of the year tomorrow so I don't have much time to post.