Where are you getting N-P-K analyized organics?

[lawncuttinfoo]

Where are you getting N-P-K analyized organics? Like Alfalfa meal and Soybean meal or anything listed in the FAQs.

I was under the impression that by federal law materials sold as a fertilizer and applied for hire must have the analysis of N-P-K printed on the front of the bag.

[Kiril]

In that case it is sold as livestock feed, not fertilizer. You might be able to find someone who does sell it as a fertilizer, and it then would require the analysis.

[ICT Bill]

Your impression is exactly correct
I was speaking to a state regulator on Friday and asked the same question
His reply was, if you claiming that you are performing fertilization in any way on a property and not using a state registered fertilizer you are in violation of the law and can be fined and/or your license removed. If it says alfalfa meal on it and has no guarenteed analysis it will not be considered a fertilizer by the state and you will be in violation of the law

If you make no claim that it will improve the soil or plant then you can spread it all over the place. But if you are billing the customer for fertilizing you can be fined

[ICT Bill]

Bradfield Organics has a line of ferts like that, they will deal direct and give discounts on larger orders. They are distributed nationwide and are backed by Land o Lakes Purina

Fertlizers and pesticides are regulated by each state not by the fed's

[Kiril]

Your impression is exactly correct
I was speaking to a state regulator on Friday and asked the same question
His reply was, if you claiming that you are performing fertilization in any way on a property and not using a state registered fertilizer you are in violation of the law and can be fined and/or your license removed. If it says alfalfa meal on it and has no guarenteed analysis it will not be considered a fertilizer by the state and you will be in violation of the law

If you make no claim that it will improve the soil or plant then you can spread it all over the place. But if you are billing the customer for fertilizing you can be fined

I don't know about you Bill, but that seems a bit over the top to me.

Assuming compost is on the list, how could they even hope to cover every possible compost ingredient combination?

Does this also extend to homeowners or just LCO's?

If it doesn't extend to homeowners, why doesn't it? Most residential landscapes are maintained by the homeowner.

[DUSTYCEDAR]

its all a game and now with the phos ban in many places how do u get that out of the organics?

[ICT Bill]

His point was "what you are claiming" as an applicator
This was the state regulator for Florida, but I have to assume it is the same almost anywhere.
If you are a licenced business in Florida and perform fertilization for hire you must use state approved fertilizers or risk losing your license to do business. period end of quote.

The state gets a fee ($0.75) for every ton of fertilizer shippied or produced in the state.

I you state that you are just putting down something and you don't know what it does and it is a bag of alfalfa meal you can do that. You can not say you are improving the soil or turf in any way or state on the billing to the customer that you fertilized. You could say you applied alfalfa meal, but can't say it that improves anything or promotes growth

[Kiril]

So basically, it is all in the wording. ;)

[ICT Bill]

That is correct. It is how you state what you are doing. If you say you are improving the soil by appying alfalfa meal the department of Ag considers it a fertilizer and it has to be an state approved fertilizer

I think I was set up

You could use our 2-0-2 compost tea

[DUSTYCEDAR]

the way the laws were written didnt take into account all the changes in lawn care and like it was said its all in the wording

[Kiril]

I think I was set up

Nah, just looking for clarification for those people who might need it.

Personally I think if you can get around the regulations by simply using (or not using) certain words, then you may as well not even have the regulation to begin with. Furthermore, regulating something like using livestock feed as a soil amendment is silly IMHO. To much bureaucracy, to little common sense.

[ICT Bill]

Personally I think if you can get around the regulations by simply using (or not using) certain words, then you may as well not even have the regulation to begin with. Furthermore, regulating something like using livestock feed as a soil amendment is silly IMHO. To much bureaucracy, to little common sense.
Agreed, They have to pay their salaries somehow

As the Department of Ag guy said "what are you claiming or billing the customer for?" if its fertilization it has to be registered with the state as such.

Did you see the other post in the fert section where Florida has changed it laws. no more than 2 lbs of N per 1000 per year on some types of grass and no more than 0.7 lbs of K, starts July 1 2009

http://www.flaes.org/pdf/Urban_turf_fact_sheet.pdf

This is just the beginning of a tidalwave of legislation coming, its a water quality issue

[Kiril]

Did you see the other post in the fert section where Florida has changed it laws. no more than 2 lbs of N per 1000 per year on some types of grass and no more than 0.7 lbs of K, starts July 1 2009

http://www.flaes.org/pdf/Urban_turf_fact_sheet.pdf

This is just the beginning of a tidalwave of legislation coming, its a water quality issue

Florida is particularly vulnerable to water pollution from fertilizers. If it were me, I would forget about the essentially unenforcible regulations, eliminate retail sales of fertilizers, and limit all other sales to certified applicators (since they already require certification to apply).

[cspaugh]

Could you bill the applications as ammendments? You dont need certs for ammending the soil do you? Add a little perilite a little composted manure....and for future "ferts" apply your special blend of meals as a topdress ammendment....would that be worded correctly? What do ya think?

[ICT Bill]

What they are doing is changing the law for manufacturers, Florida for instance is making us change our label and product to fit thier law.
We have to have a statement on the outside of every package that says

"Do not apply near water, storm drains or drainage ditches. Do not apply if heavy rain is expected. Apply this product only to your lawn / garden, and sweep any product that lands on the driveway, sidewalk, or street, back onto your lawn / garden."

and the direction have to read so that only 1 lb of N and .7 lb of K per 1000 is put down at any one time

all a good thing as far as I am concerned

[ICT Bill]

cspaugh, Probably

It depends on what you say you are doing, if you say your fertilizing then NO.

What would the state agency do to you, probably not even slap your hand buy tell you to change your ways

[cspaugh]

I dont live in florida nor have i ever seen a label on a bag of compost of feed that says anything about where to apply.....im not trying to sound like i know it all or start any static, just trying to decide why i should get an applicators license to put top dress ammendments down i.e. cgm, bone meal, alphalfa etc....thanks

[Dchall_San_Antonio]

Generally it seems the laws are in place to protect the clients from having some fly-by-night "contractor" spread useless materials and skip town. If your state licenses you, you should have the license and be ready to show it to clients. The license also means you promise to abide by the state rules.

Anyone should be allowed to put any fertilizer on their own lawn, regardless of the NPK. Things are changing in the organic marketing, though. I bought a bag of corn gluten meal last weekend that had the full NPK analysis on it, so it could be sold and used as a fertilizer. If the bag did not have that, then it falls into agricultural laws that require a guaranteed analysis of food value to livestock. The food value sticker must list the protein. That is good because protein is the key ingredient the soil needs and lacks. However, the state laws are all written in terms of NPK and not protein, carbohydrates, vitamins, and minerals.

If you offer an organic program to your clients, I would suggest you prepare some informative handouts (more pictures than words) to explain what you will be doing, when, what materials you are using, and why. I see there is already a thread on that topic, so that's a good thing. But you should be really sure your client is not going to come after you for spreading junk on his lawn in violation of an agreement or the law.

[cspaugh]

I dont intend on spreading junk on peoples lawn. I get cgm by the ton from a hopper at the feed makers so it is definatly AG.

[cspaugh]

nor do i want to be in violation of any laws

[ICT Bill]

David
Where in the Hell of you been?
Nice to see you on here

[Smallaxe]

This could become a very important issue if the gov't start dictating certain amounts of NPK. Many organic ammendments are technically in violation of P bans already. Thats crazy! Grass clippings are considered toxic waste if it goes through the storm sewers into the lakes and streams. An organics program fails because homeowners don't want toxic waste layin about the yard? That's crazy too!!

If organics could get it together and verify just how much organic N & P leaches into the waterways vs granular N & P leaching into the waterways we could protect that natural amount of both, extant in most plant and animal tissues or by products.

Just a couple of months ago we were talking about P bans, now the N bans or (limits). It is not the nutirents that stay in the lawn that are the problem - it is the materials that leave the lawn creating the problem. Organics is the best solution we have in that it is non-polluting and yet there is discussion about needing a liscense to put down cgm.

We are about to throw the baby out with the bath water if the gov't is allowed to turn cgm into a controlled substance. Back alley deals? "Hey, Jimmy cracked corn, man, and I got a bag I can sell ya."

[cspaugh]

i wish to speak to Jimmy himself, i dont want whats left after the middleman. lmao..
just had to say it

[lawncuttinfoo]

WHOA look at this!

http://www.downtoearthdistributors.com/fert_single.html

almost all of them ate N-P-K analyized. Too bad it looks like they are just on the west coast. :(

[Smallaxe]

i wish to speak to Jimmy himself, i dont want whats left after the middleman. lmao..
just had to say it

Jimmy has a tendancy to view all new people as 'Revenuers', but I will see what I can do for ya.

[lawncuttinfoo]

Anyone found any NPK organics in Minnesota?

[Daner]

We Use this>>>>>>http://www.turfrevolution.com/TR_alfalfa515_comm.html