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farmboy1285
02-18-2008, 11:28 PM
I just bought a 48" encore WB with not motor and missing a few other things off ebay for $150. I want to put a motor on it and fix it up so I have a couple questions.

1.Any brands to stay away from
2.V twin vs Single cylinder
3.Electric or recoil, I figure if I ever wanted to make it electric start now would be the time
4.Is there a universal bolt pattern or do I need a specific motor for my WB
5.Rebuild vs new, I am pretty sure I sure I want a new motor but maybe rebuilds are better than I think
6.Any place that sells good motors cheap I am trying to keep this project cheap because I don't really need this mower but I need something to fill out my time:dancing:.

topsites
02-19-2008, 12:38 AM
The first thing I always say is becoming educated about things helps a lot, because I don't think that mower ever had a motor in it.

That's most likely because motors are electric, now engines are gas so that's likely what you're looking for.
Motors are electric, engines run on fuel, so if it runs fuel then it ain't a motor.

I can recommend Kohler and Briggs & Stratton.

khouse
02-19-2008, 01:26 AM
Farmboy,
The first thing I would do is find out what motor originally was on your mower. Then try to find it here.
http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/

Landrus2
02-19-2008, 09:02 AM
Kawasaki 15hp will fit like a glove. I would go with recoil. these engines start very easily this is a twin cylinder great motor.:waving:

Jay Ray
02-19-2008, 10:26 AM
Kawasaki 15hp will fit like a glove. I would go with recoil. these engines start very easily this is a twin cylinder great motor.:waving:

People look at the size of the Kawi 15 twin and think you will have to do a big windup like pitching a fastball to start it. That little bitty one-handed pull it takes is quite a surprise. Much, much easier to pull than my 3.5hp walk behind edger. I have the FH451V which is pre-KAI I think, and it has been trouble free. I have no experience with the newer KAI models.

I have no idea what they cost however.

farmboy1285
02-19-2008, 09:45 PM
Kawasaki 15hp will fit like a glove. I would go with recoil. these engines start very easily this is a twin cylinder great motor.:waving:

Do you know where I can find that engine? Also any input on single cylinder vs v twin. I would prefer to go with a recoil but if I had to go with an ES it would not be the end of the world.

farmboy1285
02-19-2008, 09:51 PM
Forgot to mention this before when/if I get this thing running I want to put a swivel style sulke like the lesco or bull rider sulkies. Will this effect what enigne I should buy?

WJW Lawn
02-19-2008, 10:06 PM
People look at the size of the Kawi 15 twin and think you will have to do a big windup like pitching a fastball to start it. That little bitty one-handed pull it takes is quite a surprise. Much, much easier to pull than my 3.5hp walk behind edger. I have the FH451V which is pre-KAI I think, and it has been trouble free. I have no experience with the newer KAI models.

I have no idea what they cost however.


NOT CHEAP lol

You'll find a Briggs for a better price.

LawnTamer
02-19-2008, 10:08 PM
The first thing I always say is becoming educated about things helps a lot, because I don't think that mower ever had a motor in it.

That's most likely because motors are electric, now engines are gas so that's likely what you're looking for.
Motors are electric, engines run on fuel, so if it runs fuel then it ain't a motor.


Man Topy, where do you come up with this stuff?



As to the original post, I would also recommend a 15 Kawasaki, or a 15 Kohler command.
The Kawi is the better engine, but it is also more $$$$. I might be worried about dumping too much money into a $150 Bunton, you can polish a turd all day long, but it won't shine like a diamond.
If you are going to do this, I recommend going through Tulsa Engine Warehouse. I have used them and been very pleased every time. I tried using Small engine warehouse a few years back, it was a nightmare. They frequently try to sell old (like 20 yr old) engines and try to pass them off as new, my "new" 12.5 Kohler was a 21 yr old used Kohler with a broken governor, it came duct taped in a broken wonderbread box. Tulsa engines are shipped and packaged straight from the factory.
Here is a link.
http://www.tulsaenginewarehouse.com/catalog/kawasaki/vertical/FH430V_S03.html

farmboy1285
02-19-2008, 10:19 PM
I just did a search on the model number (48k200) and I think the mower came from the factory with a 14 HP Kawasaki on it. I will call my dealer tomorrow and try to find out for sure.

Lawntamer I know what you mean with the polishing a turd thing but I figure if worst comes to worst I can use the mower for parts on my other encore WB and sell the rest as scrap. Thats another reason why I want to keep this project cheap.

greenbaylawns
02-19-2008, 10:22 PM
Farmboy,
The first thing I would do is find out what motor originally was on your mower. Then try to find it here.
http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/

Also does it look like this mower? Then you need a vertical engine Try Northern tool like this one Kohler command pro 15 hp $689.99 recoil

topsites
02-19-2008, 11:28 PM
Man Topy, where do you come up with this stuff?

dammit because we don't even know the shaft size or the model of the ENGINE that goes on that mower and obviously doing a search for a replacement MOTOR ain't gonna yield any results and we might as well stop looking because any engines we recommend are as likely not the one he needs. Now I come up with this crap because I want to send the man in the right direction because when I spend money I don't like to pay for shipping more than once so that's where I come up with this crap.

lol sorry man

First thing first, we need the MODEL number of the ENGINE that goes on that MOWER!
Then we might can find the shaft size, and then we can start looking.

Any vertical 13-17hp engine won't do because if the shaft size is wrong it most likely won't work.
And it ain't a motor, it's an engine!

Now I know I should've said that in the first place but folks have to learn to walk through the process some kind of way...

J&R Landscaping
02-20-2008, 12:11 AM
The older single cylinder kawasaki engines (fb460v and fc420) were a pain to start when cold though the fb460 was always harder then the 420. If you wanted to go with a single, Kohler would be the way. You might also consider a Briggs and Stratton Vanguard engine. Does the mower have a manual or electric blade clutch on it? If its electric which its probably not, you'll need a special charge coil built into the electrical system of the engine.

farmboy1285
02-20-2008, 12:58 AM
Also does it look like this mower? Then you need a vertical engine Try Northern tool like this one Kohler command pro 15 hp $689.99 recoil

Yep except mine is a belt drive. I love northern tool and that is the first place I looked but I thought some of those engines were a little to expensive for me. I have the belt pulleys that go on the bottom of the engine so I should be able to measure those right? As I said earlier I am going to call my dealer tomorrow and see if I can find more info. Also yes the mower has a manual blade clutch. I have been considering mainly briggs and stratton but would be fine with Kawasaki or kohler.

barnard
02-20-2008, 09:30 AM
Shaft size is going to be 1"x3&5/32" . This is a standard size and widely used in the industry.

Jay Ray
02-20-2008, 06:59 PM
The older single cylinder kawasaki engines (fb460v and fc420) were a pain to start when cold though the fb460 was always harder then the 420.

For the 12.5 hp fb460v you can put a little bit longer metric machine screw in the arm where it closes the choke and then adjust it for more choke. I had that problem on my 2004 Metro 32 where the choke wasn't close to full choke on the choke plate, and this simple fix solved it. I don't know if it is hard on the engine but so far no bad effects.

farmboy1285
02-21-2008, 12:07 AM
I called my dealer today and the guy that knows encores wasn't there so I didn't get any info I did find a few engines that I thought might work. Assuming that all these motors have the correct bolt pattern and I could make them work on my mower what do you think.

1. This is not the actual engine I looked at but it is very close the one I found is at a local farm supply store for $450 with tax, it is a single cylinder 17 hp Briggs with electric start it comes with a muffler. http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/product.asp?PN=31D707-0567&desc=Briggs+Stratton+Engine+17+5+HP+Vertical+1+x+3+5+32+Shaft+Dual+Circuit+Alternator
2. I found this one on smallenginewarehouse.com http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/product.asp?PN=28BH76-0114&desc=Briggs+Stratton+Engine+15+5HP+Intek+Vertical+1+x3+5+32+Shaft+IC+AVS+Recoil+Start+9+Amp+Alt+and+ Regulator+Oil+Filter
3.This one is on ebay and on smallenginewarehouse.com
http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/product.asp?PN=294776&desc=Briggs+Stratton+Engine+14hp+Vanguard+Vertical+1+shaft+Recoil+Start+W+Alternator

The believe the first two are 508 cc and the last one is 480 cc. Of the three I like the third one the most mainly because its a v twin. I figure two cylinders is better than one and it may have more torque and its a commerical grade engine, but maybe I am not giving the single cylinder engines enough credit after all horsepower is horsepower. Thanks for all the help so far and the links for engine websites.

Jay Ray
02-21-2008, 05:30 PM
You got to buy the muffler too for the Vanguard twin and a regulator if the Encore uses an electric clutch, but that looks like really good value and better quality to me at $465 with free shipping.

I don't see an oil filter, maybe I missed it, so you might have to change oil at 25 instead of 50 hours. Quart and a half and a little more labor, not that hard to live with. I think if you ever sold the mower it would be worth more (to me anyway) with the Vanguard on it.

You can download the dimensional drawing and check it against the Encore deck.

farmboy1285
02-21-2008, 09:16 PM
The oil filter isn't a huge deal to me and to be honest I didn't notice it until you pointed it out. My second choice was the 15.5 hp with the recoil but with that one I think it is for homeowner use and if I got that one I would either have to mount it sideways(which would annoy the crap out of me) or drill new holes for it.

topsites
02-21-2008, 11:22 PM
As a general rule SEW's ebay prices tend to be better than in-store, something about they put some engines on ebay not sure if they're just overstock or what, but I always check ebay to see what they have first.

Then compare the price to their in-store one, it's not always the same.
I like that V-twin myself, kinda neat for a 14.5hp

But to save money, I mean don't spend a lot for an old unit Wb, here's a nice one for 400 (+shipping thou):
http://www.smallenginewarehouse.com/product.asp?PN=28BH76-0114&desc=Briggs+Stratton+Engine+15+5HP+Intek+Vertical+1+x3+5+32+Shaft+IC+AVS+Recoil+Start+9+Amp+Alt+and+ Regulator+Oil+Filter
It's recoil + ES lol run you $450 total.

I think that's the cheapest, 400 + shipping a nice 15.5hp 1-cylinder, should be plenty torque.
Once we get a bit further the price jumps to 450 and up...

I'd get a recoil unless your Wb is set up for ES, the battery and cable install can be a pita.
The worst part is finding a place to put the battery, we had to weld a bracket once, it worked fine but...

Now if you really want an ES check this Kohler:
http://smallenginewarehouse.com/product.asp?PN=CV16-43513-SD&desc=Kohler+Engine+16hp+Vertical+1+x+3+5+32+Shaft+Command+Oil+Filter+Electric+Start+15+Amp+Alt
$525 w/ the shipping.

Likely I'd get that 15.5hp for $450 w/ shipping if it were me.
The shaft may need to be ground w/ a 4.5" grinder for the key slot, not sure.

pugs
02-22-2008, 06:43 PM
The first thing I always say is becoming educated about things helps a lot, because I don't think that mower ever had a motor in it.

That's most likely because motors are electric, now engines are gas so that's likely what you're looking for.
Motors are electric, engines run on fuel, so if it runs fuel then it ain't a motor.

I can recommend Kohler and Briggs & Stratton.

You may want to rethink that. Here is a definition of the word motor:

A device that converts any form of energy into mechanical energy, especially an internal-combustion engine or an arrangement of coils and magnets that converts electric current into mechanical power.

Oldtimer
02-23-2008, 09:19 AM
That's most likely because motors are electric, now engines are gas so that's likely what you're looking for.

Motors are electric, engines run on fuel, so if it runs fuel then it ain't a motor


Definitely not a quote from a NASCAR fan and he is from Richmond.


Oldtimer

Turfhead
02-23-2008, 01:09 PM
I CAN TELL YOU THAT THE CHEAPEST MOTOR IS USUALLY A BRIGGS AND STRATTON, THE MOST EXPENSIVE IS PROBLY A HONDA. KOHLER AND KAWASAKI USUALLY ABOUT THE SAME PRICE. MOST TIMES YOU NEED TO GET AN IDEA OF WHAT HORSE POWER YOU WANT. FIND OUT THE CRANKSHAFT SIZE YOU NEED. YOU NOW HOW LONG, HOW BIG OF A KEY WAY, WHETHER IT IS A TAPPER SHAFT OR IF IT WILL NEED ANY GEAR REDUCTION. I MANAGE A MOWER SHOP IN KENTUCKY IF YOU WANT TO EMAIL ME I CAN TRY TO HELP YOU. STYLIN1983@GMAIL.COM.

topsites
02-23-2008, 05:03 PM
You may want to rethink that. Here is a definition of the word motor:

A device that converts any form of energy into mechanical energy, especially an internal-combustion ENGINE or an arrangement of coils and magnets that converts electric current into mechanical power.

I see now education is a choice.

brucec32
02-23-2008, 06:57 PM
1998 44" toro wb w/ 16hp briggs twin. Light use for the last several years (mostly as a backup) but looks to have maybe up to as many as 1,000 hours of use and these are certainly not the hottest new thing out there. But it cut the cool season stuff well, even heavy grass, and had a very light footprint in soft turf and cut wet grass amazing and fit through more gates, so I liked it.

Engine is 95% shot and after a few stabs it's not worth repairing.

Anyone have a ballpark figure on what a simple new engine install would be including labor? Having not seen one done, I worry about buying an engine and running into some hard to remove key or whatever that burns up time I don't have. The briggs twin is overkill in power, I've had similar 15hp kohler machines that did ok in most situations. But I have no idea if the pulleys and such are set up for other engine types. Also the electric clutch and various wiring connections make Mongo's head hurt and I'd just as soon not bother.

Or should I sell it as-is to someone handier? I have plenty of machines, but it'd be nice to have a very light wide area wb for days after it rains or use on recently seeded lawns till they're in shape to handle a ZTR.

farmboy1285
02-26-2008, 11:31 PM
Sorry the third picture is a little blury. I would go with the 15.5 HP briggs recoil but on the description it says that it needs to be hooked up to 12 volts to keep a fuel soleinoid open. If I am going to get a recoil I dont want the hassle of a battery and not have en Electric start. Is there a way to over ride this so the engine runs on its own without a battery.

farmboy1285
02-27-2008, 11:48 PM
Anyone else have any more input/advice?

Jay Ray
02-28-2008, 12:03 AM
I think I see what looks like some cut wires coming off the bundle with the ground wire.

Do you know if it has manual blade engagement or uses an electric clutch to engage the blades? Manual, sorry I forgot from your post above.

So you can use a recoil motor without an alternator to power the clutch, usually a little less expensive.

Jay Ray
02-28-2008, 12:27 AM
There is a new old stock 14hp kohler on eBay for $362.50 BIN and 40 bucks shipping. Recoil, single cylinder, remote oil filter. search: 14hp kohler engine. About eighty less than the 14hp Vanguard twin with the muffler.

Jay Ray
02-28-2008, 12:36 AM
Sorry the third picture is a little blury. I would go with the 15.5 HP briggs recoil but on the description it says that it needs to be hooked up to 12 volts to keep a fuel soleinoid open. If I am going to get a recoil I dont want the hassle of a battery and not have en Electric start. Is there a way to over ride this so the engine runs on its own without a battery.

If you have all the numbers you can go to the B&S site and download the pdf file on the engine. Usually the same engine will have several configurations of carbs. Maybe there is one with the same float bowl and main nozzle but with the bowl plug instead of the fuel solenoid. If so, get the item number and drop down to the last pages to get the B&S part number. Buy the plug and sell the fuel solenoid on eBay because they are not cheap.

Also maybe just take the fuel solenoid to a dealer and ask for a plug to substitute.

farmboy1285
03-02-2008, 11:59 PM
I talked to the guys up at the encore factory today and found out that the engine that was originally on the mower was a kawasaki FC420V-FS15. I think that I have decided to go with this engine http://www.briggsandstratton.com/engine_power/details.aspx?pid=46. It is the engine that was the first choice on the list that I posted on page 2. I haven't completely made up my mind yet but I went back to the store yesterday to measure the mounts and look at it again and I realized that it should/will fit my mower. The advantages of this engine are
1. More horsepower
2.Complete engine, yes muffler included
3.The engine is local so If I do have to return because something is wrong I don't have to pay shipping and is shouldn't be as much of a hassle.
4.I know that I am getting a brand new engine and not something thats been sitting for 10 years.

Even though it is an electric start I don't mind that because in the long run that will probably be better. I shouldn't have to much trouble installing the battery and other parts because I have a welder and I am planning on building a battery box and bolting/welding straight to the frame.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this am I missing something or am I making the right choice?

David Thompson
03-03-2008, 05:04 AM
I to bought an old walk behind with a blowed motor and found that tulsa engine warehouse had by far the best deals with factory warrantys. Shipped to my door it was $359. for a 20 horse kohler courage series with electric start. It did not come with a muffler so I found an old muffler off of a 25 kohler command and cut one side of the exhaust pipe with the flange and used that flange to bolt to the motor then made a bracket to position the muffler out of the way and welded it all up. Since the original motor was a 15 horse recoil start the new one hangs over the cutting deck by about 5 or 6 inches but the cover still comes off to get to the deck belt. My son calls it my monster garage mower.
David

farmboy1285
03-10-2008, 01:27 AM
Well I bought a engine saturday, I decided to get the 17 hp briggs with the electric start. I havent put it on because I need a spacer for the crankshaft but I dry fited it on the mower and it looks sweet!!!! I checked to make sure the holes and the belt pulleys matched and what do you know they did. I decided that while there was no engine on it I would paint it so put on a few coats of rust-oliem and I am going to paint again before I put the engine on. I will be sure to show you guys see the finished product. Thanks again for the help and advice.

David Thompson
03-10-2008, 06:00 AM
Hello
Those Cranshaft adaptors can most of the time be bought from Grainger. I had to use one when I used a 5 horse briggs motor for an air compressor and I used the clutch off of an old mower to engage the pump belt.
David Thompson