Pesticide License a negative.

[Footpath Organic]

I have come upon multiple posts that state applying anything that controls weeds or insects as requiring a pesticide license in your state. I know this is common knowledge amongst seasoned veterans. The thing that newcomers wanting to get in this business is, you can only apply straight fert without a pesticide license. it is my understanding that corn gluten meal is considered an herbicide and requires a license to apply. Please correct me if I am wrong.

The point I am trying to make is....if we are trying to do something good, and have to have a pesticide license number on the side of the truck, thats kind of contrary to what we are doing.

Go ahead, have at me.

[phasthound]

Good comment, deserves some clarification. According to the EPA, any product that makes claims to to control or repel pests (insects, mites, weeds, rodents, diseases, etc.) must be registered as a pesticide unless if it is specifically listed by the EPA as exempt.

Products such as corn gluten, garlic oil, clove oil and others are exempt from EPA registration. Other products that are approved for organic pest control such as horticultural oil, insecticidal soap, Bt, neem oil and others are not exempt and require a pesticide license to apply if you are doing it for hire.

Nobody said everything must make sense, but you must obey the law.

[NattyLawn]

I believe in PA you must have a license to apply fertilizer for profit.

As Barry said, the law's the law.

[Footpath Organic]

I know we must obey the law. We are a nation of laws.
It would be nice though if we could put in parenthesis? under the license#:

(But we dont REALLY use any pesticides!)

HAHA

[ICT Bill]

Footpath, maybe you could say (we use the good pesticides) kind of a double meaning

Unfortunately states have had to move in with regulations to protect consumers from scams, in every industry.
They do this with laws, the laws in this industry are there to protect consumers from bad products and practices.

What the states are saying at the basic level is, that if you claim something (it kills pests) you have to prove it. The EPA mostly and the states too regulate pesticides, each state, and not the Federal government, control fertilizer practices.
It is what it is, but it does point out that you need to be aware and compliant with the laws in your state.

Barry is well versed in this subject

Our product is regulated as a fertilzer in almost every state, there are some states that their law states, to be considered a fertilizer the NPK must be a certain percentage of the total, in those cases we are considered a soil amendment

[Organic a go go]

Good comment, deserves some clarification. According to the EPA, any product that makes claims to to control or repel pests (insects, mites, weeds, rodents, diseases, etc.) must be registered as a pesticide unless if it is specifically listed by the EPA as exempt.

Nobody said everything must make sense, but you must obey the law.

Barry the Dept of Ag. here in Illinois explains it a little differently to me if Im understanding you right. They make no distinction between restricted use and non-restricted if you're a business. So if you're spraying anything, compost tea, fish fert, or what have you then you gotta have a permit. They don't make a distinction between organic and chemical.

[ICT Bill]

Barry the Dept of Ag. here in Illinois explains it a little differently to me if Im understanding you right. They make no distinction between restricted use and non-restricted if you're a business. So if you're spraying anything, compost tea, fish fert, or what have you then you gotta have a permit. They don't make a distinction between organic and chemical.

This is true in almost every state. If you are for hire and working on a property other than your own and are spraying anything, you need to be licensed.

I have not seen, in all of my dealings with state dept of Ag, anyone that distiguishes between organic and chemical. If you say you are spraying to promote growth, the state considers it a fertilizer, if you are spraying to kill or deter bugs it is considered a pesticide.

[phasthound]

Barry the Dept of Ag. here in Illinois explains it a little differently to me if Im understanding you right. They make no distinction between restricted use and non-restricted if you're a business. So if you're spraying anything, compost tea, fish fert, or what have you then you gotta have a permit. They don't make a distinction between organic and chemical.

I want to clarify that the regulations I was referring to pertain to pesticides, not fertilizers or soil amendments.

I would strongly suggest that your marketing does not make claims of pest control properties for the products you mentioned. This is a legal quagmire that may suck you under.

That being said, you may quote published university studies that have tested these properties. The legal system is a strange animal.

And for the record;
My statements regarding laws and regulations are not founded on any legal basis. Consult with your state pesticide regulation department and your attorney for the correct interpretations of any such laws and regulations.
(How's that for a legal disclaimer?) :dizzy:

[gardenkeeper88]

Another thing to think about. Organic and Natural Doesn't always mean safer. A pestcide is a pesticide. Period you can't deny this. So a long time favorite for the garden was rotenone, killed insects great was derived from a root. Organic? Yes. Safer? No it was just as dangerous to hunmans as "sevin" and "malathion" So should a license be required to apply a pesticde on someone else's property? YES! hopefully by getting a license the applicator will have learned more than the jamok who just lost his job the, the economy sucks, he can't find a job so he loads his mower in the back of his truck, picks up a sprayer and says he his a lawn company. Does he have the knowledge to apply these pestacides? Prob. not. Oh yea the sprayer he picked up was a pull behind from the local rental store. How much product should he put in this thing? with a license he was given this knowledge, and has at least reference papers to go back to. Best bet 3 year down the road the will have learned more but maybe not how to calbibrate. and may be applying the product at 20% above reccommended strength. Are all natural products safe at this strength?

Bee Stings contain "natural " poison and can kill people.

I'm not putting down natural. I tried it for 2 years but just couldn't get my customers to be patient with the green up compared to "Mr. Jones" down the street. I also sold homeowner products fo 18 years.

[Daner]

IMO...these pesticide laws need a bit of tweaking...Having to pay the govt. to do something good for our environment Is beyond me.

Animals eat CCM ...so what, If It helps keep the weeds at bay during at particular time frame.

If the govt. Insists that we need a Licence...then It should be a whole separate licence eg. (Organic Applicators permit)

PS: What If one of us discovers that Kellogg's corn flakes will stunt the growth of weeds Will we need a applicators permit to through cereal out on the back lawn?

Daner

[ICT Bill]

PS: What If one of us discovers that Kellogg's corn flakes will stunt the growth of weeds Will we need a applicators permit to through cereal out on the back lawn?

Actually that's a good question I am not sure where PGR's fit in, does anybody else?

It is all about what you claim that you are doing. If you CLAIM that it promtes growth then the state considers it a fertilizer and you will fall under any state regulation for fertilizer.

And for the record;
My statements regarding laws and regulations are not founded on any legal basis. Consult with your state pesticide regulation department and your attorney for the correct interpretations of any such laws and regulations.
(How's that for a legal disclaimer?)

man you got out of that one really well, I'll have to remember that trick

[PHS]

Animals eat CCM ...so what, If It helps keep the weeds at bay during at particular time frame.

You know why corn kernals are universally banned to use as fish bait? What's the harm, everybody eats corn right? Well fish can't digest corn so it plugs up their digestive tract and they die. Just because we can eat something doesn't mean that it's safe for everything else too.

[Organic a go go]

If the govt. Insists that we need a Licence...then It should be a whole separate licence eg. (Organic Applicators permit)
Daner


I would absolutely support that idea. Im not anti license at all but the license I have to apply for is of no value whatsoever to my business now or ever. I'll have to demonstrate an understanding of materials I wouldn't dream of using in a million years. Wow. Now I can tell my customers Im licensed to use the products Im trying to compete against. Dumb.

[Kiril]

Actually that's a good question I am not sure where PGR's fit in, does anybody else?

In CA it is classified as a pesticide.

[Daner]

Its a Pesticide Up In this neck of the woods as well.

Like Bill says... It depends on what you say your using It for

I just wonder what the pesticide police would say ,If they caught you filling up your spreader with Kellogg Corn Flakes...I can see It now... Young man...may I see your cereal applicators licence please.....Yes sir...I also have the Cheerios endorsement officer

[DUSTYCEDAR]

the laws r funny and its hard to understand many of them but if u do it for hire in pa u need a lic
getting the lic would prove to your customers that u r with in the letter of the law for there safety and market it that way.

[treegal1]

wow, here we are the people, suffering with a law that is not fair, my thought is to dump the tea in the harbor and get back to "BY THE PEOPLE FOR THE PEOPLE " . NOW IS THE TIME WE ALL SHOULD BAND TOGETHER IN ARMS. lets get our own laws written and on the books. some how!
lets face it if we do nothing and let it slide we are part of the problem and not part of the solution. the united states organic laws are non existent, all the laws were written to safe guard chemical consumers. it would be like seat belts on bicycles. lets all get together and change this, it wont be easy but it will be rite and righteous. the EU. and AUST. have laws to protect organic consumers.

[Prolawnservice]

IMO rather than adding MORE LAWS:hammerhead: why don't we work on fixing the ones we have. How about more focus on organic and cultural practices on licensing tests, less on specific chemicals(I don't think there should be any specific synthetic chemical questions, that's just advertising, and was probably paid for by drug companies to be included, as far as I'm concerned). I already pay for my commercial applicator pesticide licence, pesticide business licence and home improvement contractor licence.:confused: That's enough, how about they enforce the laws :clapping:on the people that don't even bother to get their licence.

[PHS]

I don't think there should be any specific synthetic chemical questions,

What kinds of questions do they ask you there? I've tested in three states and don't recall having any questions about specific materials. The closest I can remember to something like was in an example like you have a 2% solution of something, figure out how much to mix and apply but that's general knowledge information.

[treegal1]

see here , that's the whole point, the system is broken, the chemical use buy it nature is not the best practice, Iam not saying that all the chemicals should be banned or license protocols changed, just that the organic Field should not be regulated the same as others, yes the basic knowledge part of the tests is important and the regulatory statutes to insure people don't get scammed are already in place. but this is like saying a dentist should do a cardiac residence before he can practice, there is a genuine need to have a separate license or make the existing limited license cover organics only.but saying that someone needs to work for a pesticide spray co. for three years for an unlimited license is just not in keeping with common sense.there are many LCO's that would be more than able to cover the test protocol's and the ED. requirements and then there is the three year thing and it kills of a lot off the chem. guys possible legitimate competition and that's why there is resistance from the chem. side of things.... eh got a license haha..... we fixed it so that we have a lock on things haha... there should be a requirement that the chem guys should have to finish the arborist exam so that they can spray trees then lets se what they say about the whole apprenticeship thing

[Whitey4]

Lots of reactionary posts here in my opinion, including a broadbrush approach to the "chemical guys"'. There are some very environmentally consciensous people with pesticide licenses. Pesticide certification was a needed control. Unfortunatley, that does not prevent some applicators from being irresponsible. At least they have learned, but it's the home owners and the chemical companies that are the biggest polluters, and it isn't even close.

I cringe when I hear about grub controls being used as a "preventative, like life insurance". But, as far as being certified goes, I agree with the EPA definition of what a pesticide is. Anything that ******s, affects or kills (or words to that effect) a living organism IS a pesticide. You want to use CGM as a root inhibitor, that's a pesticide. You want to call some organic chemicals like nicotine non-organic, that's just plain incorrect. Arsenic too. How many "wholistic" (and organic) dietary supplements have been proven dangerous to use? Lots.

Organics have been given a pass.... they aren't tested, they just get sold, even as dietary supplements. So, if they are organic, they must be safe is an extremely dangerous mind set. What is needed is more testing on oganic additives, and a much higher degree of attention by the EPA as to testing these materials. Heck, I could brew a compost tea in my backyard that could be deadly to many beneficial organisms and quite possibly very toxic to wildlife and people. There are no guidelines for such endevours. Completely unregulated and untested.

Is there a problem with processed organics, like urea nitrogen? Or nicotine in Merit? Yes, there are. What we don't know is how toxic a lot of the "safe" organics are. Blind organic extremists are in my mind as dangerous as the irresponsible chemical applicator. I expect ot now be put over the propane fire and burnt to a crisp.... although I happen to cook my food with wood and charcoal during the summer. But hey, propane is natural, right? I mean, it's carbon based. Truth is, the word "organic" isn't even defined universally. Lime is organic, but it has salt in it, so it's bad. So, which organics are OK?

No one really knows yet.

[Kiril]

I agree with some of what you have pointed out, the problem here I think is the use of legal language that is specifically targeted at synthetic pesticides for organics. Blanket statements/language of what is technically considered a pesticide is simply wrong. Let me demonstrate.

But, as far as being certified goes, I agree with the EPA definition of what a pesticide is. Anything that ******s, affects or kills (or words to that effect) a living organism IS a pesticide.

I have not read the EPA definition, so I am going to assume here what you have presented is correct.

If I remove water from a living system it will decline and eventually die. Should someone need a pesticide applicators license to trigger an irrigation cycle?

How about mulch (bark, landscape fabric, plastic, etc...). By using these products you are effectively limiting/affecting the growth of both weeds and soil biology.

Should you need a pesticide applicators license for these?

Mulching lawn clippings back onto the lawn affects the growth of soil biology and turf plants.

Should you need a pesticide applicators license to mow a lawn?

This is why blanket regulations are silly. IMHO, if you want to regulate something, then regulate a specific product and provide scientifically valid reasons for why it is being regulated.

[treegal1]

alot of good points there and the one that rings through the loudest is that we need to be regulated in an appropriate fashion, the fact is that the chem guys dont care for us to be around the state regulators are overwhelmed and dont have the resources and there is no way to test every batch of every spray that hits the ground.but if you see someone shoot them-self in the foot and bleed to death it is safe to say that is not a good practice. we see every day that their are environmental toxins, bee stings, snake bites, arsenic,lead,uranium,the list is long, but with good practices and sound science the danger level is reduced. the lethal dosage for merit is 3 grams? my worm castings wont kill you if you eat a pound, if you could eat that much and they wont cause cancer

[Organic a go go]

Hard to see anything in the least reactionary in wanting states to test us for proficiency in the materials and procedures we actually use instead of the materials and procedures you use. It makes as much sense as you being tested for AACT when you're applying chems. Same difference.

If you're concerned about organics not being defined then you ought to be
entirely in favor of different licensing procedures.

[treegal1]

yes lets get the license thing for organics defined and then put in place, that is the solution

[Organic a go go]

Yep treegal. If we were licensed differently then it'd only help sell our services. I'd love it.

[Whitey4]

Let me be clear... I DO think a complete overhaul of certification and testing is not only needed, but almost desperately needed. LD-50 testing is very flawed technology, for starters. That right there blows the entire system as is, into smitherines.

But, good luck to us and the population on getting the system that is in place changed so radically. There is SO much money going into the system by companaies like Scotts, et al, that it a near insurmountable task. Let's face it, we don't govern ourselves anymore.

Some pockets of resistance have sprung up, but I see many of these local attempts at restrictions as poorly thought out reactionary legislative, often politically motivated measures, and in terms of strategy against the big chem companies, doomed to eventual failure. To use one of our buzzwords, only a systemic and gradual change has any hope of being effective. If enacted slowly enough, the big chem companies can change over, and still be able to buy politicians along the way.

What one has to wonder is if such a gradual change will happen soon enough to prevent some major disasters. My town's water district had to shut down 4 of 8 aquifer wells last year due to high nitrate levels. That's about as unacceptable as it can get.

I do, with all appologies, still use NPK ferts. We have sandy loam. The stuff leaches fast. I've cut my N down to less that 3lbs a year, near to 2 lbs, over 5 apps. Compare that to Scotts or Tru Green doing 5 lbs in 3 apps. I know my N isn't leaching. I've taken to more top dressing, over seeding and aeration than last year. (Let me also mention this is only my second year in business) so I am still learning, and doing all I can to increase using organics while keeping my business economically viable. With some more experience, I hope to create self sustaining turf, which some believe is not viable based on evaproration alone.... how long that will take me is a guess at this point.

But I digress off topic.... sorry bout that. I guess I have rambled a bit...

[Kiril]

LD-50 testing is very flawed technology

Can you explain why it is?

[Kiril]

EPA's site for pesticides (in particular the section What substances are not regulated as pesticides? at the bottom of the page).

http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/about/index.htm

For those interested, U.S. code with regard to pesticides.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/7/usc_sup_01_7_10_6.html

With regard to this thread, a review of the definitions is appropriate.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/7/usc_sec_07_00000136----000-.html

[treegal1]

I think the answer is in the variables, metabolism, transpiration, organ size,,,,, getting Gorey

nothing is perfect?

[treegal1]

also if you plan to change apology accepted
if not then you are still part of the problem

I open my doors to the world every wed. at 5:00 pm so that every one (even the chem. guys ) can come and see and learn. we have a beautiful miracle in organics, not to share it is a carnal sin

[Kiril]

Another site that some people might want to save a link to.

http://npic.orst.edu/

[Footpath Organic]

Good to see some discussion on the subject.

I found this at the NJDEP website. Although its a page regarding IPM programs, there is a list of EPA exempt "minimum risk" pesticides that are not regulated.
Once again, different states may have different policies.

.state.nj.us/dep/enforcement/pcp/ipm-lowimpact.htm

[DUSTYCEDAR]

this is just a view so here goes
the big chem guys seem to be pushing the phosphors ban to help the watersheds however they know that it is difficult for the organic guys to get phosphors out of our products.
it seems like an attempt to push us out again with a law.
if u cant beat them twist a law to slow them down.

[Whitey4]

Can you explain why it is?

LD 50 doesn't take into account long term exposure issues, at least to any length I am comfortable with. You know, low doses, over a long period of time.

Vinegar has a much lower LD 50 than RoundUp, but I think it's safe to say that long term exposure to vinegar has to be safer than glyposhate. Maybe I'm wrong... but I doubt it.

Tree gal, that was rather tongue in cheek. I am not part of any problem, and it's comments like that which drive people away from this forum as they want to cut chemical usage down and move towards safer approaches.

I come here to learn, and hopefully not be accused of being some kind of problem, check? I know what I do now is very responsible environmentally, and don't need either your approval or ivory tower judgements. In fact, your extemeism is what I see as a problem. It gets in the way of an exchange of ideas bewtween well meaning people.

Yes, I want to move more towards organics and self sustaining cultures, but being judged by the "holier than though" people does ruffle my feathers. If you want to be part of YOUR solution, and help people move towards organics, tone down the rehtoric, or lose people willing to learn, such as myself along the way. You catch more bees with honey than you will with vinegar.

[NattyLawn]

LD 50 doesn't take into account long term exposure issues, at least to any length I am comfortable with. You know, low doses, over a long period of time.

Vinegar has a much lower LD 50 than RoundUp, but I think it's safe to say that long term exposure to vinegar has to be safer than glyposhate. Maybe I'm wrong... but I doubt it.

Tree gal, that was rather tongue in cheek. I am not part of any problem, and it's comments like that which drive people away from this forum as they want to cut chemical usage down and move towards safer approaches.

I come here to learn, and hopefully not be accused of being some kind of problem, check? I know what I do now is very responsible environmentally, and don't need either your approval or ivory tower judgements. In fact, your extemeism is what I see as a problem. It gets in the way of an exchange of ideas bewtween well meaning people.

Yes, I want to move more towards organics and self sustaining cultures, but being judged by the "holier than though" people does ruffle my feathers. If you want to be part of YOUR solution, and help people move towards organics, tone down the rehtoric, or lose people willing to learn, such as myself along the way. You catch more bees with honey than you will with vinegar.

These are whitey's posts on another thread in the pest forum entitled "Pet Saf Weed Control":

<<What in the flyin farts are you babbling about? Compost tea? What's IN it? Put some organic nicotine in it, and yeah, a couple drops could KILL you! Or maybe some arsenic.... or maybe the knucklhead who made the tea threw some poison ivy in it too! The problem with you organic maniacs is that you are throwing stuff down thinking it's all fine and dandy, and for all you know (or don't know) it could be freakin deadly! It hasn't been tested, nor are there any standards set for it! But throw that word "organic" in front of it and it MUST be safe! Clueless babbling....>>

The next day after posting this nonsense he starts a thread about organic fert! Now he's all defensive and he wants to learn? I thought your customers wouldn't pay for organics?

Psst! Don't tell anyone that we put nicotine, arsenic and e-coli in our compost teas! We want to kill as many lawns and make all applicators sick! It's a conspiracy! Teas don't work! Elaine Ingham is the leader of our cult!

[treegal1]

hey I put the olive branch out there. you were the one making apology's for what you do

I was taught that to be repentant you must first change your ways

[treegal1]

I also understand that stinging nettles make some great tea........

[Whitey4]

These are whitey's posts on another thread in the pest forum entitled "Pet Saf Weed Control":

<<What in the flyin farts are you babbling about? Compost tea? What's IN it? Put some organic nicotine in it, and yeah, a couple drops could KILL you! Or maybe some arsenic.... or maybe the knucklhead who made the tea threw some poison ivy in it too! The problem with you organic maniacs is that you are throwing stuff down thinking it's all fine and dandy, and for all you know (or don't know) it could be freakin deadly! It hasn't been tested, nor are there any standards set for it! But throw that word "organic" in front of it and it MUST be safe! Clueless babbling....>>

The next day after posting this nonsense he starts a thread about organic fert! Now he's all defensive and he wants to learn? I thought your customers wouldn't pay for organics?

Psst! Don't tell anyone that we put nicotine, arsenic and e-coli in our compost teas! We want to kill as many lawns and make all applicators sick! It's a conspiracy! Teas don't work! Elaine Ingham is the leader of our cult!


Taken out of context.... but, it's just this sort of attack that keeps people like me out of this forum. Now, I think I'll go kill multitudes of people with some Merit! Be sure to bookmark this post.... it will come in handy the next time you character assasinate.

[Organic a go go]

Taken out of context.... but, it's just this sort of attack that keeps people like me out of this forum. Now, I think I'll go kill multitudes of people with some Merit! Be sure to bookmark this post.... it will come in handy the next time you character assasinate.

Could you put that in its proper context??

[Whitey4]

Could you put that in its proper context??

There was a discussion of organics in general. It centered around organics being safe. Nicotine, arsenic and a lot of other poisons are organic. Just because a chemical compound is organic does not make it safe, correct?

I think organic teas have great promise, but I have witnessed one time when a home brewed "organic" tea, applied by small organic applicator killed everything! I was posting with pointed exaggeration about how something that is organic does not intristically mean it's safe!

Many organic products are not EPA approved, it's often entirely unregulated. That opens the door to people applying products, sometimes formulated by people who are not qualifed to do it safely.

What Natty Lawn posted came at the end of this rather long discussion, and on it's own, is very out of context. I was explicitly exagerating to make a point. It was not a condemnation of organic practices, but it appears to be so, when taken out of that context.

So, to make a point, I posted how I would go kill multitudes of people with Merit. Take that post on it's own, and what does it look like when taken out of context? It won't look like the gross and false statement it was intended to be... it would look like I actually want to kill people! Follow?

[ICT Bill]

You all bring up excellent perspectives of what is going on in general in the industry.

I have to agree with the "theme" that Whitey4 is bringing up, Dr.E brings up the same points often.
If you are making claims that can not be proven you will soon be regulated by the state or EPA.

It is fine to say that you have a better mousetrap, Dr. E (and a lot of others)would say "where is the data?"

Anecdotal and emperical are different perspectives. I feel it is important to keep my feet firmly planted in reality. It is very important to me to have the data to back up the end result.

We may need a better word to describe the process of good land stewardship than "organic".

[Organic a go go]

Thats fair enough but a couple of points are worth making.

I think you overstate the importance of the word "organic" Nobody in their right mind and certainly nobody here would make the point that "organic"
or "natural" always means perfect or completely safe. Of course nature produces poison, everyone knows that so you end up arguing a point nobody but you is interested in. I have a Rodales from 1959 that rails against the use of nicotine so that's been essentially a moot point for about 40 years now.

You often mention the fact that organics aren't tested. That simply isn't true. The level of scholarship and research on virtually every aspect of organic methods is staggering. Im not trying to be argumentative but I think it would be more accurate to say that there is a ton of research out there that perhaps you aren't familiar with yet. There are several here that would be more equipped to direct you to specific resources than I would but if you have those kind of specific questions then I'd direct them to Kiril or ICT Bill or others. I think the fact is that there are far fewer unknowns here than you suspect.

Neither would it be true to say that we're trying to avoid being licensed. I would LOVE to have a state license for non-chemical apps. Love it. But you'd probably agree that small business doesn't exist to serve the state so its not being unreasonable to ask that the state make an effort to be relevant to me and not the other way around. As long as I have to take your test and get your license Im going to complain about it, and rightfully so.

Lastly we can discuss this ad infinitum but the market is going to make the final decisions. Thus far organics have lagged far far behind but as you look at a wide range of market trends, including the amount of VC money pouring into the green sector I think its fair to say that the gap between your business model and mine closes everyday. Of course they'll be customers of yours that I'll never get and customers of mine that you'll never get but organics is going to be a big big big part of the near future. I think it'll do more for your bottom line if you argue less and accept more.

[Whitey4]

Thanks, Bill. I lurk here much more often than post, because I usually seem to get myself painted into a corner somehow. But, I believe by posting my thoughts I will learn more. In the process, I guess taking more lumps is just how it is going to work.... or I can just go back to lurking. That is clearly a safer approach for the faint of heart and thin skinned!

I actaully think that some common ground that can unite both sides, if it can be found with some moderation and tact, would be much more effective as a group of horticulturists plying political power against the powers that be. A more moderate middle ground unified approach, where one side does not condemn the other in search of better ways to solve problems....

It reminds me of the NRA vs. the gun control people. The NRA thinks that they have to defend plastic guns that can get through airport security and defend availabilty of bullet proof vest penetrating ammunition for fear of giving an inch to lose a yard, vs, the gun control folks that don't understand hunting and how that is a family value in many parts of the counrty. I bring that as an analogy because I am neither a gun owner nor do I support a ban.

I am a moderate on that issue, as I am on this issue. Hard liners rarely are capable of creating change. They generally only have the effect of polarizing people and opinions as opposed to finding reasonable common ground.

I think the pesticide forum could use a dose of this advice, as well as this forum. But, alas, I am not the king, and things will go as they will.

[Whitey4]

Thats fair enough but a couple of points are worth making.

I think you overstate the importance of the word "organic" Nobody in their right mind and certainly nobody here would make the point that "organic"
or "natural" always means perfect or completely safe. Of course nature produces poison, everyone knows that so you end up arguing a point nobody but you is interested in. I have a Rodales from 1959 that rails against the use of nicotine so that's been essentially a moot point for about 40 years now.

You often mention the fact that organics aren't tested. That simply isn't true. The level of scholarship and research on virtually every aspect of organic methods is staggering. Im not trying to be argumentative but I think it would be more accurate to say that there is a ton of research out there that perhaps you aren't familiar with yet. There are several here that would be more equipped to direct you to specific resources than I would but if you have those kind of specific questions then I'd direct them to Kiril or ICT Bill or others. I think the fact is that there are far fewer unknowns here than you suspect.

Neither would it be true to say that we're trying to avoid being licensed. I would LOVE to have a state license for non-chemical apps. Love it. But you'd probably agree that small business doesn't exist to serve the state so its not being unreasonable to ask that the state make an effort to be relevant to me and not the other way around. As long as I have to take your test and get your license Im going to complain about it, and rightfully so.

Lastly we can discuss this ad infinitum but the market is going to make the final decisions. Thus far organics have lagged far far behind but as you look at a wide range of market trends, including the amount of VC money pouring into the green sector I think its fair to say that the gap between your business model and mine closes everyday. Of course they'll be customers of yours that I'll never get and customers of mine that you'll never get but organics is going to be a big big big part of the near future. I think it'll do more for your bottom line if you argue less and accept more.

:clapping:

Not only did you just teach me a lot, you demonstrated exactly the thing I was asking for above. Do remember, I am only in my second year.... and have only gotten educated on the chemical side recently. i have more to learn on that side, and almost ... well, a near virgin as far as organics go.

I appreciate your patience and absence of judgement. That allows for an excahnge of ideas in an open forum. That is all I ask for in this forum.

I am a big proponent of restricting darn near everything from home owner access. It was not very long ago that I was of the "if this much is good, more must be better" mentality. Don't hit the student with a ruler, he won't come back tomorrow if he can find a way to skip school.

I have seen some research on organics, and I agree, much of what I've read from university studies proves it's value and safety. My concern lies more with the materials offered for sale. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that many sources, with some very notable exceptions, may not be tested as much as I'd like.

There is a fella in Jersey, just over the river who posts here. I would buy his stuff with confidence, but I am not using enough volume to order his product. Part of the problem is distribution. Maybe as I grow, I can get intoo a co-op or buying partnership to share these large volume shipments with.

In the meantime, I still have a family to feed, and bills to pay. That doesn't mean I'm throwin down chemicals with abandon.... I'm a darned responsible applicator. I live here. I am not about to poison my own family. Don't even go there.

[treegal1]

there that's more the spirit, get the chem guys (no offense) to help us get the paper of this "organic" or call it what you want to go the way we want. we all can only pray that we reach all of them in time before my river is green all the time and the fish kills wipes out say pompano or another important species, how do bees suffer long term. I think that the answer is there has been leaves and manure for.....A really long time anyway. point is that the use what you have versus the consumers of products will make less impact on the ecology. IS THIS NOT THE WHOLE POINT?

I am not that radical just in need of some clean water to drink and fish in. this is really not a request anymore it is a demand for harm not to be done to me

[PHS]

But you'd probably agree that small business doesn't exist to serve the state so its not being unreasonable to ask that the state make an effort to be relevant to me and not the other way around. As long as I have to take your test and get your license Im going to complain about it, and rightfully so.

I asked this earlier but nobody answered. I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just curious what part of the tests are so violating to organic principles? Having a license doesn't in any way, shape, or form stop me from using organic practices that I can see. Am I missing something?

Generally speaking I don't think it really matters what kind of license is issued. If you want to have an organically certified business sorta like they have in agriculture I'm fine with that. The license itself and the questions that are asked are practically just a technicality anyway IMO. The bottom line is, millions of people live in our urban areas and a hell of a lot of products, regardless of their form are being applied to customers' properties. The government agencies responsible for protecting the environment need to know who's applying what, where, and in what quantities. If there's no license or record of who the applicators are and no record of the products they're using how is data supposed to be collected. If environmental problems are detected the first thing that the scientists do is go to the records to try and find out the source of the problem regardless of what industry they're orginating from. That's why fetilizers need to have a registered analysis before they can be applied even if it's just corn meal (or corn flakes :). That's why pesticides need to be registered even if they're organic. So if there's a problem from it's use somebody can trace back to find that out. In short, I'm trying to say that I think government licences, registrations, and record keeping are a good thing if we have the environment's best interest in mind.

[Organic a go go]

I haven't taken the IL test yet but the study materials sent to me indicate that I'll have to demonstrate that I have a grasp of dilution ratios and safe application standards for chems that I'll never use. It isn't that it violates "organic standards" its that the test is completely irrelevant to my business but if I don't get certified to use materials Im not using Im liable for fines. The classic sort of government SN-FUBAR. If the test turns out to be something different then Im happy to change my tune about that.

Whatever the law is I'll follow it but wouldn't it make more sense to be certified in the techniques and materials I'd actually be likely to use? No one is asking for a pass. We're asking for relevance.

[Whitey4]

I haven't taken the IL test yet but the study materials sent to me indicate that I'll have to demonstrate that I have a grasp of dilution ratios and safe application standards for chems that I'll never use. It isn't that it violates "organic standards" its that the test is completely irrelevant to my business but if I don't get certified to use materials Im not using Im liable for fines. The classic sort of government SN-FUBAR. If the test turns out to be something different then Im happy to change my tune about that.

Whatever the law is I'll follow it but wouldn't it make more sense to be certified in the techniques and materials I'd actually be likely to use? No one is asking for a pass. We're asking for relevance.

There was much on my test that was totally irrelevant as well. I am not going to fly a crop duster, but I had to know about flagmen. The govt is not going to write 15 different verions if a test to satisfy us. Thank goodeness they don't try to micro-manage it to that extent. The certification tests, and righfully so, are written to make sure that anyone certified to use pesticides, be it CGM or Merit, is at least aware of how to apply it as per the law.

I don't need to know how to calibrate a strip sprayer. That is for row farmers. But, it's on the test. The test varies quite a bit from state to state. Some are a complete joke. Many have questions that will never come into play in how many of us use materials. It's a kindergarten course to at least ensure that some basics are known. I don't like it as is, but it's better than no regulation.

I think a push for an organic material based certification would make sense. But I will say again, unless there is some sort of unified political front between the chem manufactureres, their users, and the organic community, change won't happen.

[ICT Bill]

There was much on my test that was totally irrelevant as well. I am not going to fly a crop duster, but I had to know about flagmen. The govt is not going to write 15 different verions if a test to satisfy us. Thank goodeness they don't try to micro-manage it to that extent. The certification tests, and righfully so, are written to make sure that anyone certified to use pesticides, be it CGM or Merit, is at least aware of how to apply it as per the law.

I don't need to know how to calibrate a strip sprayer. That is for row farmers. But, it's on the test. The test varies quite a bit from state to state. Some are a complete joke. Many have questions that will never come into play in how many of us use materials. It's a kindergarten course to at least ensure that some basics are known. I don't like it as is, but it's better than no regulation.

I think a push for an organic material based certification would make sense. But I will say again, unless there is some sort of unified political front between the chem manufactureres, their users, and the organic community, change won't happen.

And there you have it

If you read between the lines it tells you that we are not doing enough to assert ourselves into the legislation that is going on in our counties, states and country.

RANT
I really get mad at some of the articles that have come out about the "dumbing down of America". It is not our children's fault, it is our capability to understand and support and grow the infrastructure to where the the publics needs are met. end rant

But I feel the same way about how we sit back and don't at least try to be involved, in a responsible way, about how the legislation is being done in this county, states and country for sustainable land stewardship.

We can rant all we want on this board, does it make a difference?..........Maybe

Who is going to the ecological landscapers association meeting March 6, 7, 8

Charles Mann and John Todd ROCK

[NattyLawn]

There was much on my test that was totally irrelevant as well. I am not going to fly a crop duster, but I had to know about flagmen. The govt is not going to write 15 different verions if a test to satisfy us. Thank goodeness they don't try to micro-manage it to that extent. The certification tests, and righfully so, are written to make sure that anyone certified to use pesticides, be it CGM or Merit, is at least aware of how to apply it as per the law.


I think a push for an organic material based certification would make sense. But I will say again, unless there is some sort of unified political front between the chem manufactureres, their users, and the organic community, change won't happen.

Good points here, and for the record, the post of yours was at the beginning of the discussion. We're not a bunch of unlicensed renegades spraying anything under the sun because it's "safe" or "organic". Nothing is 100% safe. I just found it a little odd you were defending chemical use to the T, but then posted about organic ferts the next day.

[PHS]

I haven't taken the IL test yet but the study materials sent to me indicate that I'll have to demonstrate that I have a grasp of dilution ratios and safe application standards for chems that I'll never use

I don't know what your business is exactly but chances are that at some point you'll need to spray oil or soap to get control of an insect population. Copper or sulfur might be needed for a destructive disease problem (fireblight?). You'll need to know how to mix and apply those. The soap I've used in the past (M-pede) is a warning label and so are many Copper products.

This is just my opinion but the math is the math, it doesn't matter what you're applying. If you buy Bill's CT in a bottle, I'm sure he has an application rate listed on the label for best results. Still going to have to go through the same procedure to make sure you're putting down the right amount. Spreading CGM is exactly the same as spreading straight urea. CGM has a lot more margin for error so you could get away with just eyeballing it but conceptually it's the same thing.

I guess what I'm saying is that the information on the tests is good to know and in the long run may not be as irrelevant as it seems. Personally I don't think the tests need to be changed so much as there needs to be a list of 'certified organic' materials and procedures for certifying a lawn and landscape business like there is with agriculture. I'm not 100% organic and wouldn't qualify for the certification but I think it's important for customers to know what they are getting. Believe it or not that's good for me and good for the dedicated Organic operators.

[Kiril]

LD 50 doesn't take into account long term exposure issues, at least to any length I am comfortable with. You know, low doses, over a long period of time.

LD50 values apply to lethal doses (eg. acute oral toxicity). I'm not sure why anyone would try to extrapolate lethal concentrations (eg. LC50, EC50) from an LD50 value?

As far as the rest of the "debate", I don't feel piling more licenses, regulations, etc.. onto end users is going to magically impart common sense. This is not solving the problem either. Anyone can cram enough information into their short term memory to pass a test. I do agree that homeowners are a far bigger problem with respect to environmental concerns than LCO's.

In any event, my "solution" to the larger problem (resource waste, environmental pollution, etc...) is to "regulate" the types of landscapes that are causing the majority of the problems (eg. lawns). Imagine how much resource waste and pollution would be prevented by simply eliminating 50% of the lawns nationwide. You want a solution to a problem, go to the source of that problem and eliminate it.

::ducks and runs from angry crowd of lawn maintenance company owners::

[PHS]

LD50 values apply to lethal doses (eg. acute oral toxicity). I'm not sure why anyone would try to extrapolate lethal concentrations (eg. LC50, EC50) from an LD50 value?

I think he's saying that it doesn't take into account chronic toxicity over a long enough period of time.

[Organic a go go]

I wont be spraying oil or soap, some do and thats fine I don't make a judgment about anyone else's business. Im all for math but its not reasonable to expect anyone to demonstrate their grasp of the subject to the state's satisfaction simply because the state doesn't have an apparatus in place to judge them by the standards of their particular business. When we take our test for a drivers license we aren't tested on a skateboard.

[treegal1]

God on Lawns
1. Imagine the conversation The Creator might have had with St. Francis on the subject of lawns:
God: Hey St. Francis, you know all about gardens and nature. What in the world is going on
down there in Florida? What happened to the dandelions, violets, thistle and stuff I started eons
ago? I had a perfect "no maintenance" garden plan. Those plants grow in any type of soil,
withstand drought and multiply with abandon. The nectar from the long lasting blossoms attracts
butterflies, honey bees and flocks of songbirds. I expected to see a vast garden of colors by now.
But all I see are these green rectangles.
St. Francis: It's the tribes that settled there, Lord. The Suburbanites. They started calling your
flowers "weeds" and went to great lengths to kill them and replace them with grass.
God: Grass? But it's so boring. It's not colorful. It doesn't attract butterflies, birds and bees, only
grubs and sod worms. It's temperamental with temperatures. Do these Suburbanites really want
all that grass growing there?
St. Francis: Apparently so, Lord. They go to great pains to grow it and keep it green. The begin
each spring by fertilizing grass and poisoning any other plant that crops up in the lawn.
God: The spring rains and warm weather probably make grass grow really fast. That must make
the Suburbanites happy.
St. Francis: Apparently not, Lord. As soon as it grows a little, they cut it... sometimes twice a
week.
God: They cut it? Do they then bail it like hay?
St. Francis: Not exactly, Lord. Most of them rake it up and put it in bags.
God: They bag it? Why? Is it a cash crop? Do they sell it?
St. Francis: No Sir. Just the opposite. They pay to throw it away.
God: Now let me get this straight. They fertilize grass so when it does grow, they cut it off and
pay to throw it away?
St. Francis: Yes, Sir.
God: These Suburbanites must be relieved in the summer when we cut back on the rain and turn
up the heat. That surely slows the growth and saves them a lot of work.
St. Francis: You are not going to believe this Lord. When the grass stops growing so fast, they
drag out hoses and pay more money to water it so they can continue to mow it and pay to get rid
of it.
God: What nonsense. At least they kept some of the trees. That was a sheer stroke of genius, if I
do say so myself. The trees grow leaves in the spring to provide beauty and shade in the summer.
In the autumn they fall to the ground and form a natural blanket to keep moisture in the soil and
protect the trees and bushes. Plus, as they rot, the leaves form compost to enhance the soil. It's a
natural circle of life.
St. Francis: You better sit down, Lord. The Suburbanites have drawn a new circle. As soon as the
leaves fall, they rake them into great piles and pay to have them hauled away.
God: No. What do they do to protect the shrub and tree roots in the winter and to keep the soil
moist and loose?
St. Francis: After throwing away the leaves, they go out and buy something which they call
mulch. The haul it home and spread it around in place of the leaves.
God: And where do they get this mulch?
St. Francis: They cut down trees and grind them up to make the mulch.
God: Enough. I don't want to think about this anymore. Sister Catherine, you're in charge of the
arts. What movie have you scheduled for us tonight?
Sister Catherine: "Dumb and Dumber", Lord. It's a real stupid movie about.....
God: Never mind, I think I just heard the whole story from St. Francis.

[Whitey4]

God: So, how is it going Francis?

St Francis: Well, Lord, as usual, it's a good news bad news thing.

God: OK, give me the good news first.

St Francis: Well, your most magnificent Bald Eagle has been saved, after they nearly made it extinct. It may have been a good thing, as they like that bird very much, and stopped using the chemicals that were making the young die. Even in these suburban places, where they cut your grass, they soar high above, godly in their grace. This made them more aware of the dangers of messing with yer stuff too much.

God: They cut the grass? tell me more about this.

St Francis: Yes, they like grass, they love the feel of it on their naked feet. They play with their children on it, and games, yes, they play games on it as well.

God: What are these games you speak of?

St Francis: Oh, all sorts of games, joyful games, ones that help families build strong bonds. Badmitton, croquet, baseball, tag, all sorts of games. They play with their pets, they really like your dogs and throw something called a "Frisbee" in yet another game. Fathers play wrestling with their young boys and girls too.

God: Well that sounds wonderful. What is the bad news?

St Francis: You know how you told them to use all the gifts you've given them? Well, sometimes, they don't use these gifts as you would want.... like the whole Bald Eagle thing. Then there are some merchants who would teach them to use your gifts in a way that can hurt your creations.

God: Well why would they do that?

St Francis: They do not understand your gifts as well as they need to. Some of them argue about how to make the best use of the gifts you have bestowed. Some are just greedy, and others judge those that believe they are being responsible custodians of your gifts. Remember the Spanish Inquisition?

God: Oh yes, need we bring that back up?

St Francis: Well, while the Spanish Queen was thinking she was protecting the faith and the world, she was so inflexable as to condemn all who did not agree. That did not help expand the faith. Some of these well meaning people also condemn these lawns that bring such pleasure and family closeness that I described.

God: Isn't there some way for them to agree to understand each other? Can they find no safe common ground?

St Francis: Lord, you met Elizabeth, the queen of Spain.

God: Oh, geeze.... is it like THAT?

[ICT Bill]

Whitey, I am trying to figure out what that piece was, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me

You like to dress up like a queen or st francis? anyway LOL

Treegal, when you look at it that way, it does make you smile and think, what a bunch of idiots............ooops, I'm one of those idiots too, well mostly

[Kiril]

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94528&stc=1&d=1196520292

[treegal1]

some times I just smile for no reason, maybe it just makes me feel better, or lets the blood flow back to my brain

if god were a land Lord would we get the deposit back?

[ICT Bill]

Kiril
Are you trying to tell me something??:p

[Kiril]

Kiril
Are you trying to tell me something??:p

Why would you think that? :waving:

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=101622&d=1204311152

[ICT Bill]

Yep, you are definately try to get a message across LOL too funny:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[treegal1]

Iwant a sing like that

[ICT Bill]

Kiril will show you what program or website she made it up on
or for free or I'll make one up for you, if you would like. Just say the word

delivered, no charge. Just say the word.................dark, kind of lemon but maybe more towards lime green, side
Wait a minute that is more than one word

Serious, cross my heart and hope to die stick a needle in my eye

(and my peers taught me that, no wonder I'm screwed up)
Jeez Treegal, I'll deliver it in person.

[Whitey4]

Whitey, I am trying to figure out what that piece was, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me

You like to dress up like a queen or st francis? anyway LOL

Treegal, when you look at it that way, it does make you smile and think, what a bunch of idiots............ooops, I'm one of those idiots too, well mostly

Bill, it was late, and I was misusing a chemical. Ethyl alchohol. It comes in a product called beer, although there are many other formulations available. Heck... Queen Elizabeth, the Spanish inquisition? Try Queen Isabella.... although they both tried people and killed in the name of the faith... one did it for a Protestant theology, the other for a Catholic one, but conversion is best coerced with a voluntary exchange rather than at a point of a sword.

It was a rather lame response to treegal's post. Just saying, or trying to say, that converting the masses is sometimes easier to do with large doses of compromise, time, and patience, as opposed to the whip. Heck, even St Patrick used some druid "saints" like Bridgid to convert the masses. People do not give up their accepted practices easilly. Even when confronted with factual truths, beliefs are not easilly abandoned.

I'm like that... a chemical guy that believes there is a better way, but my nature is to move slowly. Gradual change, particularly when my ability to make a living is in the balance, at least from my perspective.

I am only newly certified, and am only in year two of attempting to build a business I can make a living from. I know how to be environmentally reponsible as an IPM based company already, but my strategies by necessity must be compatable with the knowledge base and business plan I have in place. I can't very well go organic when I don't know my ass from my elbow! For me, it will have to be a gradual change, not an abrupt one.

[ICT Bill]

Whitey, well said

Yes, change is difficult. Believe me as an organic lawn care sponsor on here I am aware of the push back to change.

We get it from both sides

Personally I don't think its a sink or swim issue. I believe, what is being done here (this forum) is that people are giving some great information to some real world issues, OK, we joke around some (yeah :cool2: baby) but in general, the tone is about "how is it done and what are the best practices"

There are a lot of opinions out there, hopefully they can be heard in a civil manner and discussed as to the pro's and con's.

You were very civil just cryptic

BTW, are you a size 2 or 4?:laugh:

[treegal1]

yep, we joke a lot, but the fact of the mater is(speaking for myself) we have helped 6 organic LCOs get started and my door is always open,even to my "competition".environmentally thinking starts with the lawns layout or lack there of. and includes native plants with some zero-scape and a good IPM organic or not,although the later is preferred. lets all have a pint, read learn, live so that we dont poison any eagles"we have a baby eagle 500 yards from our door not kidding" then we will not have to mediate any thing or fix a situation involving poison's

[treegal1]

yep, we joke a lot, but the fact of the mater is(speaking for myself) we have helped 6 organic LCOs get started and my door is always open,even to my "competition".environmentally thinking starts with the lawns layout or lack there of. and includes native plants with some zero-scape and a good IPM organic or not,although the later is preferred. lets all have a pint, read, learn, live so that we dont poison any eagles"we have a baby eagle 500 yards from our door not kidding" then we will not have to mediate any thing or fix a situation involving poison's

[humble1]

Good comment, deserves some clarification. According to the EPA, any product that makes claims to to control or repel pests (insects, mites, weeds, rodents, diseases, etc.) must be registered as a pesticide unless if it is specifically listed by the EPA as exempt.

Products such as corn gluten, garlic oil, clove oil and others are exempt from EPA registration. Other products that are approved for organic pest control such as horticultural oil, insecticidal soap, Bt, neem oil and others are not exempt and require a pesticide license to apply if you are doing it for hire.

Nobody said everything must make sense, but you must obey the law.

You are somewhat corect, but i have to add that states can restrict products a good example is crosscheck it is restricted use in Ma but you can buy it in NH as non restricted use. So states can put in their law anything that repels mitigates or kills you need a pesticide license and yes organics fall under this. However the label "Is the law"if you use a corn meal that doesnt have a label for weeds you are good to go, no label no law broken call it a soil amendment for N. Just cant advertise as weed control.

[treegal1]

hey you can trust the government really
just ask an Indian!