Smoking B&S 7HP Intek on Snapper - help?

[Al Bondigas]

Howdy all,

Hoping someone here can help me diagnose and let me decide whether I've been hoodwinked, bamboozled or otherwise foolishly wasted my money on a used Snapper Hi Vac push mower.

Engine is a B&S 7HP OHV Intek

Mower is a P217018BV - The engine is a Model 128602, Type 0149E1, Engine Code 041001FB

Here's my problem. It burns oil, seriously offending the senses and the neighbors. This mower white-blue cloud generating machine.

Oddly, it seems to enjoy pointing downhill, and makes almost no smoke when you tilt the mower forward by picking up on the handle. (Although this is a neat trick, my yard is not completely downhill, so I'd like understand and remedy the problem.)

Manuals state that this mower has the cast iron cylinder sleeve, and I'm hoping that it's not destined for the graveyard too soon. (It was purchased new in 4/05)

To me, the oil does not smell like gasoline, however changing the oil (draining & filling with 30W as manual recommends) did not help the problem, and running the mower for only a few minutes resulted in the "new" oil looking just the same as the old, (I did not see any particulate in the oil when I drained the old).

Previous owner told me that it was possibly overfilled by the maintenance shop and that it would burn off and be OK, but it's apparent that is not happening. It fogs the yard when running (intermittently acting fine - especially when mowing downhill).

It was also suggested to me to check the breather - not much to check there - and it looks fine, not stuck, or filled with oil, etc. In addition, the air filter and foam sock covering the filter are clean, not oil soaked.

The previous owner also told me that it was checked out at a shop before I bought it, and that the compression was perfectly fine. (I take that with a grain of salt, since he also told me that it only smoked some of the time - perhaps he meant "only when running")

Since the previous owner is NOT interested in taking this beast back (private party "gotcha" sale) - I'm stuck with her. She cuts wonderfully and the hi-vac works great. So I'm hoping it's not a lost cause.

Obviously oil is getting into this to be burned, could it be a head gasket? Cylinder wall scored? Broken ring? Something else?

Thoughts, questions? Straight talk is fine, I already know the story about the fool and his money...

Thanks in advance,

Al

[joesimoes2]

Do not waist another cent on this engine get your self a new motor.:waving:

[topsites]

I remember my first year, or actually the year before that, I bought a similar machine, that is, in about the same condition.

I took it all in stride, the money I spent on it I chalked up to experience, then re-sold the machine for about half what I paid for it, and someone else hopefully went on to learn something from it.

How that works?

[Roger]

Are you sure the crankcase isn't overfilled with oil? I know you said you changed it. Was it changed just one time since '05 after it was bought? I don't think you said how long you have used it. How many times have you run it with the smoking problem?

[MowerMedic77]

Here's my problem. It burns oil, seriously offending the senses and the neighbors. This mower white-blue cloud generating machine.

Oddly, it seems to enjoy pointing downhill, and makes almost no smoke when you tilt the mower forward by picking up on the handle.

If you let it run on a flat surface without going up and down your hills this mower will still smoke?

[Bill Kapaun]

O this engine, you screw in the dipstick. Did you use that method, or just insert the dip stick without screwing it down?
I'd re-check the oil level after it's sat undisturbed for a few hours. I know on my mower, it seems to take forever for the oil to drain down.

[Al Bondigas]

Guys, thanks for the replies already - this site is a great resource.

joesimoes2 - I've considered replacing the motor, but I haven't put a dime towards it since the initial (poorly chosen?) purchase. What did I describe that makes you think it's a lost cause?

topsites - you said you had a similar machine - spent some money on it and passed it down the food chain - what did you find wrong with it?

Roger - the other owner had it serviced before each mowing season, I could contact the shop to see if they have any records (Monday). He was rather "particular" about the mower - I have a booklet that had all the manuals and he highlighted in the maintenance manual to change the oil ever 25 hours. He also highlighted the picture showing which direction to pour the oil out. He had all the model numbers recorded in the blanks, along with purchase date, etc. Did not seem like the type who would have neglected maintenance. I could be dead wrong though.

MM77 - It would still smoke intermittently and heavy even when flat on the concrete driveway. This was also right after a carefully measured oil change to ensure I didn't overfill. Tipping alternately in any direction it would either smoke worse, (nose up, and side to side) or would stop smoking (nose down, picking up on handle) - Seemed very odd to me - but what do I know - I bought it in the first place!

Bill - yes, checked level with cap screwed down snug. I was careful to measure it out, pour it in and let it settle before checking the level. Manual states, "Place engine level. Add about 5/8 quart (20 ounces) new oil. Fill to FULL line on dipstick. DO NOT OVERFILL."

I should also restate - after the oil change and then test running briefly, the new oil looked as dirty as the old oil I had just drained. Seemed like it got dirtied up pretty fast. It also used quite a bit of oil in a short amount of time.

I plan to tear into it tomorrow with a more experienced wrench to assist - Is there something in particular I should be looking for?

Thanks again,
Al

[Al Bondigas]

Guys, thanks for the replies already - this site is a great resource.

joesimoes2 - I've considered replacing the motor, but I haven't put a dime towards it since the initial (poorly chosen?) purchase. What did I describe that makes you think it's a lost cause?

topsites - you said you had a similar machine - spent some money on it and passed it down the food chain - what did you find wrong with it?

Roger - the other owner had it serviced before each mowing season, oil change, tune up, blade sharpened, etc. I could contact the shop to see if they have any records (Monday). He was rather "particular" about the mower - He had all the booklets to give me and he had highlighted in the maintenance manual to change the oil every 25 hours. He had also highlighted the picture showing which direction to pour the oil out. He did not seem like the type who would have neglected maintenance. I could be dead wrong though.

I purchased it in early January, did not change oil at that time. I mowed with it once in early Feb., mostly to suck up leaves with the hi-vac, I ran it for about 45 minutes total time. It ran ok, but smoked. By the time I finished, the oil was down to the add level on the dipstick. I frowned a LOT.

I called the previous owner right away to check in - he didn't want to talk to me, and suggested I take it to a shop. His story about the smoking changed, and he stated it had smoked "a little" for the past year. I frowned even more.

MM77 - Even when flat on a concrete driveway it still smokes. Tested that theory right after a carefully measured 30W oil change to ensure I didn't overfill. Tipping alternately in any direction it would still smoke, (nose up, and side to side) or would stop smoking (nose down, picking up on handle) - Seemed very odd to me - but what do I know - I bought it in the first place, at night, without trying it out. (yeah, I'm still learning...)

Bill - yes, checked oil level with cap screwed down snug. During the change I was careful to measure it out, pour it in and let it settle before topping it off. As the manual states, "Place engine level. Add about 5/8 quart (20 ounces) new oil. Fill to FULL line on dipstick. DO NOT OVERFILL." (the original owner didn't highlight that in the maintenance book)

I should also restate - after the oil change and then test running briefly (5-10 minutes), the new oil looked as dirty as the old oil I had just drained. Seemed like it got dirty pretty fast. It also used quite a bit of oil in 45 minutes of time -during that February mow.

I plan to tear into it tomorrow with a more experienced wrench to assist - Is there something in particular I should be looking for?

Thanks again,
Al

[Jay Ray]

I bought almost the same Snapper brand new: P217017BV 7hp Intek 128602 0149E1 040430FA.

Started to smoke exactly like Al's Snapper about a month or two out of warranty, but it had rough duty. I couldn't describe the smoke any better than Al did. It is not economical to repair the motor. Mine is in the scrapyard but I kept the Briggs manual and had written the numbers above in it. Good thing.

Do a search with keywords: Snapper crankshaft.

One of the threads that comes up has the title, "Big crank for a push mower." A few posts down you will see a dimensional drawing of the crankshaft on this motor, thanks to Restorob.

Still you need to measure the crank to be sure it is 25mm, and there should be enough of the Woodruff key sticking out of the drive pulley to get the width on that. The long keyslot for the blade adapter is 1/4 wide but measure that also. A vernier caliper is the easiest way to get the measurements. The lower Woodruff keyslot is under the blade adapter and is unused, would not matter if it was not there.

So you now have some info on finding out what size crankshaft you need.

Now it gets even better.:) Small Engine Warehouse still has the 6.75 hp engine that I bought to replace mine with and the price is $110 plus shipping. I don't miss the 1/4 hp and am still jumping up and down happy with the performance. I just bought a new bagger so maybe I should buy a spare engine too!!! It is a take-off test engine from Husqvarna company, but who cares! SEW stock number 121602-0349-TO 6.75 hp Briggs

smallenginewarehouse.com

I can't guarantee that you will be as pleased as I have been, but there is what I did to solve the same problem economically.

[Al Bondigas]

That might be a good way out of this mess.

I missed an opportunity to purchase another Snapper locally on Craigslist for $70 - the owner had a problem with the throttle cable - can't guarantee his motor was any better than mine - but then I'd have had another whole mower for resale - letting someone else learn my lesson. (Nah, couldn't do it - I told the previous owner that I couldn't resell it in good conscience - maybe another reason he didn't want to talk to me anymore!)

Al

[Jay Ray]

I got the engine in late June of 07 and it looked new and has performed like new. The last Briggs carb repair kit I got was $33 for an 8hp horizontal, so $110 for an almost new engine seems pretty good.

The only problem I had installing it was the blade brake cable didn't have quite enough tension, so bent a little metal to solve that. Thought about taking the blade brake out but the kill wire is built into it.

[Tharrell]

I wonder if there were any service bulletins on this problem? Anyone know where to look?
Sounds sorta like a stuck piston ring to me. Tony

[Jay Ray]

I suspect there were two possible causes or both that did mine in:

Side mowing on small ditch banks.

Second, not cleaning around the dipstick tube and under the filler cap before opening it up, and then a little debris falling into the oil. It was just too hard to clean it.

On the new engine I cut away as much of the plastic decorative cover as I could without cutting into the gas tank, and also cut it away toward the front of the mower. Now I get the thing clean as I can with WD40 and a strip of rag before checking the oil. It is still not easy to clean, but much better than before. I wouldn't mind having a tube a couple inches higher for easy cleaning.

[Al Bondigas]

Well, we tore it down part way today and stopped after removing the cylinder head. Cylinder wall looks fine, no nasty groove, no scoring.

Head gasket was not obviously shot, but did have a darkened area on it between the cylinder and the area where the push rods are (sorry, don't know the proper name). My buddy seems to think the headgasket is the cause of my concern, and I'm fine with trying one out to see if it helps.

Laying a straight edge across the block where the headgasket goes reveals another oddity. The middle of the bridge area between the cylinder and the push rod passage is raised just a hair. (Maybe a few thousands of an inch) - Anyone ever seen this symptom before?

I think I saw another post on here stating the clearances for the valves, and will look for it. I think they were out of adjustment. There seemed to be a lot of play in the valves, but I can't say for sure we were measuring them with the crank in the proper position. I explained to my buddy about the Briggs design for holding one valve partially open to make it easier to pull, and that we were not to measure clearances at TDC. (Will find the other post and let him check it out.)

Going to get a headgasket (someone have a good online source for this?) and put it back together / adjust valves and see what happens.

I still don't comprehend why it would smoke unless it was pointed down hill (valves forward). Anyone have thoughts to share on that?

Thanks again,

Al

[Jay Ray]

Hope it works. I might have thrown away a perfectly good engine.

[Valk]

Can you check into the bottom of the oil reservoir?

Since your new oil would TOO soon look like old oil - makes me think there's a lot of dirt in the reservoir.

~ a faulty/filthy air cleaner may have been used/overused for a prolonged period of time leading to accumulated debris in the oil...which could be further complicated by: If the previous owner didn't change the oil when hot, then any crud would stand a better chance of remaining in the reservoir.

~ a crack/defect in the air intake - post air-filter - can let in dust which could lead to a potential problem of accumulated dirt in the oil.

~ the previous owner may never have changed the oil :hammerhead: or not often enough....until it was time to sell.

Keep us posted!

[rockytopp]

Sounds to me like it could have been run low on oil and took out the valve guides ,, that would let the oil seep from the crankcase through into the cyl. and be burnt thus giving smoke..... new engine sounds best to me also... course if you like to play.......... good luck either way..Rocky

[Jay Ray]

Sounds to me like it could have been run low on oil and took out the valve guides ,, that would let the oil seep from the crankcase through into the cyl. and be burnt thus giving smoke..... new engine sounds best to me also... course if you like to play.......... good luck either way..Rocky

Now that I think about it there wasn't time to play last June. Used the mower smoking one day and put it back on the trailer with the new engine the next. This time of year I might have spent some time on it.

[Bill Kapaun]

I still don't comprehend why it would smoke unless it was pointed down hill (valves forward). Anyone have thoughts to share on that?"

How about-
Let's assume a bad head gasket, which isn't uncommon on this engine AND tends to blow right by the push rods.
The combustion gases escaping tennd to "atomize" some of the oil in that area and these "fine droplets" are sucked into the intake through the crankcase breather.
When pointing downhill, gravity prevents this from happening as readily.
I guess a test would be to leave it pointing downhill and see if the smoke increases after awhile as the oil puddles up in that area of the engine?
That's my story....
I think you have nailed it with the head gasket though.

I'd also check the air cleaner to make sure it's not clogged. Sometimes people tilt the mower with that side down and the AC gets "oiled up".
Valve lash is .006" +/- .002" WITH the piston 1/4" PAST TDC.

http://www.briggsandstratton.com/pdf/owners_manual/100%5C277102-Domestic.pdf
page 19

[jkason]

Measure the warpage of the head. If it's more than .003" you need a new head (and gasket).

Don't re-use your gasket. Get a new one. It's only a few bucks.

If you are constantly mowing on hills greater than a 15 degree slope, this engine is toast. And you are going to toast another one in a similar amount of time unless you get a mower that has an engine with an oil pump. (Usually reserved for the mowers in the $700.00 and up range.)

[Al Bondigas]

Howdy folks, I owe you an update. Reassembled today with new headgasket, buddy wanted to double it, using the new and old gaskets together, to try and overcome any warp to the block. It's together, and seems a little better, but still smokes intermittently (and occasionally heavy). Time to admit defeat?

I don't see many posts on the web about Intek 7HP, wonder if they had flaws that Briggs has not admitted to. Perhaps a broken ring? At this point, I'm not sure it's worth messing with.

Jay Ray, sounds like you did fine with the new take off motor. Less time & frustration.

[Al Bondigas]

Sounds to me like it could have been run low on oil and took out the valve guides ,, that would let the oil seep from the crankcase through into the cyl. and be burnt thus giving smoke....

Rocky, good point there, not knowing a lot about these engines, there did seem to be a little wiggle when the valves were in place... I wouldn't call it a lot, but I'm no expert.

Oil is obviously getting through there somehow to get burned up.

Ran it for a bit with the dipstick not seated - hoping that would lower pressure and maybe it wouldn't smoke as much? Is that a valid test? Also loosened the breather a bit while it was running, oil seeped out from around it. Could the breather be bad?

The valves were way out of adjustment when we put it back together, but got them to .005 before sealing it up.

It started fine, ran good, but still smoked. My buddy suggested maybe I get some sunglasses for when I'm mowing, then I won't see the smoke.

--Al

[Jay Ray]

Jay Ray, sounds like you did fine with the new take off motor. Less time & frustration.

I kind of went by the maintenance I had done to the Snapper. Wore all four wheels out and replaced them. Replaced the rubber driven disc twice, and the inboard bearing on the hex shaft. Replaced both belts, and they were really in bad shape. Think I put more hours on it than I realized, it was out of warranty, and i was pressed for time. When it started smoking bad the $110 + ship didn't seem bad at all, and breathing it was no fun, plus it was embarrassing to mow in public with a smoker.

At first I wanted a Kawasaki, but way too rich for me on a 21, almost the price of a new Snapper. The B&S 6.75hp take-off has a cast iron sleeve and if it goes two years I'll be happy. The 7hp B&S at the dealer was nearly $400. No sir, just could not do that, way more than I expected.

But if it had been in Feb. I would have tinkered with the 7hp too.

Btw, you might have lost some power to a lower compression ratio with the second head gasket, but I understand about taking any port in a storm.

[Al Bondigas]

Update - followed Jay Ray's advice, I hated to spend more $ on this mower, but I'm still ahead of the game, and kept the deck from the landfill. Husqvarna branded Briggs was a good buy, and a near perfect fit (cabling considerations). It is far quieter than the original motor, bets of all NO SMOKE. With proper maintenance I expect years of performance out of this setup.

Thanks Jay Ray (and everyone else) for your time and for the push in the right direction. If I find the time, I'll tear down the original engine and look for a cracked ring, or other problem.

Anyone have a guesstimate at what parts would cost to fix the old? I suppose it would make a fantastic go-kart motor if only it didn't smoke.

[Jay Ray]

Glad to hear the problem is solved. Mine is still going strong, zero problems so far.

[Al Bondigas]

Jay Ray,

You mentioned needing to change / modify a cable, I cannot seem to get the replacement motor to run high RPM as the old one, so the "Hi-Vac" is diminished to a degree. I have not tried to run it with the throttle cable unhooked, or manually set to wide open throttle, but the cable appears to open throttle all the way.

Do you recall same?

Thanks,
Al

[Jay Ray]

On mine I push the throttle all the way and then come back just a tad and it picks up some rpm. But seems like it couldn't be more than 1 or 2 hundred rpm. I don't have a tach. If you take the cable off and performance picks up when it is hand operated at the carb you could try a generic cable rather than the Snapper original.

I had trouble with the blade brake cable/kill switch assembly and modified it to get more tension on it. I doubt the brake could be dragging and the kill not activated but you never know.

[44DCNF]

The warpage you see on the deck (cylinder head deck) may be a sign of a distorted cylinder. A distorted cylinder from unequal tightening of the head bolts could cause oil to pass by the rings and be burned, rather than to be wiped away.

How does your plug look. Wet with oil? Dry with soot? Clean burning?

I didn't see any mention of your method of tipping the mower during service. Are you always going in a direction that leaves the valves/carb/intake at the top?

I wouldn't worry about the dirty oil. That the new oil appears dirty quickly, is just a sign that it is doing it's job of cleaning up the engine and holding the dirt in suspension. Change more frequently if you want. Are you using a straight 30W or multigrade oil?

[Jay Ray]

Also if you have the Snapper blade with the huge bolt-on sails, it is going to slow the engine some, and also use a lot of fuel. But that blade will pull the lid up on a plastic-case water meter cover and cut it in half.

[Al Bondigas]

Thank you all for your advice. Jay Ray, I swapped the blade brake mechanism from the old motor the new one, and ended up modifying the spring on the throttle mechanism. Now it runs like a champ, and I'm back to vacuuming up the yard. Won't be long now before leaves will be falling and I hate to rake, so that's good news.

RE: the spark plug, it does get a little dirty, but not horrible. A friend took the old motor for an inspection and declared it a loss, not worth a rebuild. It wasn't clear what they found, but I'm hanging onto it for parts for now. I plan to keep this mower for a long time. Glad to have followed Jay Ray's advice!

Thanks again!