bacterial vs fungal teas?

[cspaugh]

Hello everyone

Been doing some research and ran across two types of tea, just wondering if anyone could tell me, is one more benificial than the other. From what I have gathered, brewed tea contains both bacteria and fungi, but it takes longer to culture fungi. I guess that would be the case with teas we make, heavy on the bacteria and light on the fungi. How would you go about making a brew with a high fungi count and woult ther be any benifits? Or am I way off here and sound like im just spewing, how bout a little input or clarafication. Thanks for any input, I am trying to learn:weightlifter:

[Gerry Miller]

Hello everyone

Been doing some research and ran across two types of tea, just wondering if anyone could tell me, is one more benificial than the other. From what I have gathered, brewed tea contains both bacteria and fungi, but it takes longer to culture fungi. I guess that would be the case with teas we make, heavy on the bacteria and light on the fungi. How would you go about making a brew with a high fungi count and woult ther be any benifits? Or am I way off here and sound like im just spewing, how bout a little input or clarafication. Thanks for any input, I am trying to learn:weightlifter:

Since it does take longer for the fungi to grow, you need to activate your compost about a week before you make your tea. Using baby oatmeal works well with just enough moisture for the fungi to develop.

Or you can purchase compost already activated from KIS, Inc.:
http://www.simplici-tea.com/prokit.htm

Different plants have different needs. It depends on the plant you are going to apply the tea to, but in most part, balance is more desirable.

[cspaugh]

thanks Gerry

So would every other month, with fungi rich tea, be good to get the biology in my soil up to par, in addition to monthly tea treatments. Also, am I correct that once you have good population of benificials, you feed the benificials with protiens and complex sugar, therefore less often with the teas? Thank you for your help and knowledge.

[NattyLawn]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the turf would prefer more of a bacterial tea, while plants prefer a more fungal tea. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but I'll try and dig up some info on it.

[Tim Wilson]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the turf would prefer more of a bacterial tea, while plants prefer a more fungal tea. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but I'll try and dig up some info on it.

Hi Matt,

I believe you are correct. A higher fungal volume may be necessary if your microbial soil test indicates a shortage. Generally my inclination would be that grass would do well with a CT complete with bacteria/archaea, fungal hyphae and protozoa. This generally requires brewing longer than 24 hours and for me (50 gal.) 42 hours seems to be the average magic number but it will vary. Larger brewers seem to take a bit longer for some mysterious reason. I believe you can get a 2 to 5 head count on flagellates per 200X field of view with a KIS 5 gallon brewer in about 24 hours and a 50 to 100 head count in 36 to 44 hours.

Tim

[Gerry Miller]

thanks Gerry

So would every other month, with fungi rich tea, be good to get the biology in my soil up to par, in addition to monthly tea treatments. Also, am I correct that once you have good population of benificials, you feed the benificials with protiens and complex sugar, therefore less often with the teas? Thank you for your help and knowledge.

It all depends on the condition of your soil. Have you been using synthetic chemicals in the past? Does you grass suffer from any diseases?

If yes to either of those questions, I would apply weekly tea applications during the spring growing period. I would apply a protein meal to my lawn before I applied my first application of tea. Soil organisms need protein to thrive.

If you soil was already in balance, a slightly bacterial dominance of your tea is suggested. However, since bacteria grow so well by themselves, most soils have a need for fungi more so than bacteria. So in the beginning of getting your soil into balance, I would use a slightly fungal dominant tea.

[Gerry Miller]

Hi Matt,

I believe you are correct. A higher fungal volume may be necessary if your microbial soil test indicates a shortage. Generally my inclination would be that grass would do well with a CT complete with bacteria/archaea, fungal hyphae and protozoa. This generally requires brewing longer than 24 hours and for me (50 gal.) 42 hours seems to be the average magic number but it will vary. Larger brewers seem to take a bit longer for some mysterious reason. I believe you can get a 2 to 5 head count on flagellates per 200X field of view with a KIS 5 gallon brewer in about 24 hours and a 50 to 100 head count in 36 to 44 hours.

Tim

With a KIS brewer, a decent fungal count can be obtained in a 12 hours cycle using their 5 gallon brewer. However, the magic number seems to be at the 18th hour for fungi in their system, providing you have activated you compost.

[cspaugh]

Thanks everyone for the help.

[Elden]

http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/compostteashow/compost-tea-slides/sld001.htm

Here is a site that I found when I first read this post and googled "fungal compost tea"
What I got from it was Bacterially dominated teas more for foliar applications "phyllosphere" and fungally dominated teas were more for root zone applications "rhizosphere"

[Organic a go go]

What about fungal tea as a foliar treatment? I viewed a web-inar earlier this month from the people at SPCP in IL and the compost tea lecture included quite a bit about fungal teas being helpful for disease control when applied a foliar treatment rather than a drench.

[ICT Bill]

Fungi produce enzymes, think of enzymes as an M16 in the soil. Fungi carry an M16 with them all of the time, actually they all carry different types of weapons some BB guns, M16's and others Bazooka's, but often they are weapons that can only kill specific bad guys, they work on some but not others.
If you try to take thier resource (food) or invade their territory they will blow you out of the water. The natural reaction is to produce an enzyme that will eliminate the enemy.

OK so now we coat a leaf with all of these gun toteing fungi and guess what Fallujah!!!

Certain bacteria have this capability too but most often it is the Fungi that are the most disease suppressive

I recently spoke to the administrator of one of the Soil Food Web offices and was told after all of the thousands of samples they have looked at only 2 (two) that were tested were fungally dominant. Apparently it is a difficult thing to produce.

People wiser than I in the art may have a reason for this

There is a war going on beneath your feet

[Gerry Miller]

I recently spoke to the administrator of one of the Soil Food Web offices and was told after all of the thousands of samples they have looked at only 2 (two) that were tested were fungally dominant. Apparently it is a difficult thing to produce.

People wiser than I in the art may have a reason for this

There is a war going on beneath your feet

That is not accurate. If you activate your compost for a about a week prior to using it in your tea, you will have very good fungal count in your tea. So if you follow the right procedures, it's not difficult at all.

[ICT Bill]

UUHHH HMMMM Gerry, Hello Gerry are you awake. little shakey shakey there Gerry........wake up.

That is not accurate

We're you listening in on the conversation? did you take notes? what do you mean "that is not accurate"

post your SFI testing results if you claim that you consistantly make fungally dominant teas

Helloooooo are you there, Heeelllllooooooo wake up

[Gerry Miller]

UUHHH HMMMM Gerry, Hello Gerry are you awake. little shakey shakey there Gerry........wake up.



We're you listening in on the conversation? did you take notes? what do you mean "that is not accurate"

post your SFI testing results if you claim that you consistantly make fungally dominant teas

Helloooooo are you there, Heeelllllooooooo wake up

Wake up bill, because you don't know how to make fungal dominated tea doesn't make it difficult. Like I said before, I'll explain it again for you bill, you need to activate your compost first to be able to produce fungal dominated tea. You again try to make it seem that making tea is more difficult to make than it really is so you can promote your product. Now that's shakey!

[Elden]

Gerry, please explain how to activate your compost to produce a fungally dominated tea. Is that done by introducing Oxygen in to the compost? This would be a perfect thread to explain the ways to brew bact. or fung. dominated teas.

Listening to Gerry and Bill fight remind me of an old divorced couple. LOL

[ICT Bill]

I resemble that remark

Actually Gerry has given some enlightening information on how to produce great compost and compost teas. His info on carbs and proteins for turf is right on. He is a plethora of information

Sometimes caustic, but you gotta love it

[tadhussey]

Alright, I couldn't resist jumping in on this one. My understanding, both from reading Dr. E and talking with Jeff Lowenfels, is that you want a tea that is high in BOTH bacteria and fungi. That puts the plant in control. Dominance is not so much of an issue, because the plannt will choose the organisms it wants in the rhizosphere or on it's leaf surface based on the exudates it is releasing. Therefore, a tea that has all the organisms present (bacteria, archaea, fungi, protozoa) in sufficient numbers would be the best for application purposes in almost every instance. Remember, compost tea is a shotgun approach. We're trying to put out as many beneficial organisms as possible. The fungi is an important part of that, and would be the hardest to consistenly cultivate in a tea, but that doesn't mean the tea can't have a bunch of beneficial bacteria swimming around too!

Okay....that's my 2 cents! Keep up the great discussion.

~Tad

[Smallaxe]

Say Tad, Does Gerry's idea of increasing fungal dominance by using oatmeal work?
He said the KIS compost was already activated fungally. Is that true?

[NattyLawn]

Let me just say this, and once again, someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I've only been looking at teas for a few weeks under the scope, but this is what I've found in the 5 gallons brews. At about 24 hours is when you will find the fungal counts highest (let me state, this is a KIS 5 gallon pro kit). After 24 hours, the protozoa and nematode populations begin to thrive, and they need something to eat. So as microbe populations increase, fungi and bacteria counts decrease. Could the lower fungal counts have to do with the timing of the samples sent? Or were they observed on site?

As far as activating your tea, there's a little snippet I found online from Jeff Lowenfels book, Teaming with Microbes. It's at the bottom of page 141, and of course, page 142 is skipped. This book is well worth the 16.97 price on Amazon.

http://books.google.com/books?id=sslymTtMR-kC&pg=PA141&lpg=PA141&dq=baby+oatmeal+in+compost&source=web&ots=WmSCzxgpYb&sig=L0M8bnVnsMmRkjuq8ZlfQPJLfdA#PPA141,M1

[Tim Wilson]

Let me just say this, and once again, someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I've only been looking at teas for a few weeks under the scope, but this is what I've found in the 5 gallons brews. At about 24 hours is when you will find the fungal counts highest (let me state, this is a KIS 5 gallon pro kit). After 24 hours, the protozoa and nematode populations begin to thrive, and they need something to eat. So as microbe populations increase, fungi and bacteria counts decrease. Could the lower fungal counts have to do with the timing of the samples sent? Or were they observed on site?

As far as activating your tea, there's a little snippet I found online from Jeff Lowenfels book, Teaming with Microbes. It's at the bottom of page 141, and of course, page 142 is skipped. This book is well worth the 16.97 price on Amazon.

http://books.google.com/books?id=sslymTtMR-kC&pg=PA141&lpg=PA141&dq=baby+oatmeal+in+compost&source=web&ots=WmSCzxgpYb&sig=L0M8bnVnsMmRkjuq8ZlfQPJLfdA#PPA141,M1


Hi Matt,


Your observation is correct that usually the highest incidence of fungal hyphae and bacteria/archaea is earlier on in the brew (12 to 24 hours).

Nematodes do not reproduce nor grow in compost tea. You may extract a few from your compost but they hate being in compost tea and many of them die. Compost tea is a very inefficient way to distribute nematodes. If you grow a bunch of nematodes in your compost, better to distribute them in the compost by hand/bucket.

Indeed protozoa do start multiplying in large numbers after 24 hours; usually between 36 and 48 hours. What you want to see is flagellates and/or naked amoebae mostly. As the protozoa multiply and consume the bacteria/archaea there is a sweet zone when the fungal hyphae resume growth because there are less bacteria/archaea munching on them. It is this sweet zone that those of us with microscopes can observe and take advantage of. This is the point where you have the optimum functional nutrient cycling microbial consortia and this is the optimum time to apply the CT for nutrient cycling purposes.

BTW they are all microbes; bacteria, archaea, protozoa, fungal hyphae, yeast, and to some degree nematodes but nematodes are commonly called worms in scientific studies.

There is a lot to learn about fungal hyphae. When we use oat flour to grow hyphae in compost are we just growing aspergillus fumugatus?; a common compost degrader and bread mold. When we grow fungal hyphae from compost in compost tea how likely is it that we are growing species which find their habitat on leaf surfaces? I have on my list of things to do, to learn how to catagorize/identify fungal hyphae. I also should get my butt in gear and submit some for analysis. There are only a few people capable of this identification (to my knowledge).

I have found that clay/rock powders support fungal hyphae in CT and good quality fish hydrolysate diluted and mixed with compost grows good hyphae of more than one species. When trying to promote fungal growth in CT decrease molasses and increase fish.

Gerry,

You mentioned the 18 hour point being good for fungal hyphae volume. How did you ascertain this without a microscope?

Salutations,
Tim

[NattyLawn]

Thanks for the clarifications and corrections, Tim.

[Smallaxe]

Hi Matt,
Your observation is correct that usually the highest incidence of fungal hyphae and bacteria/archaea is earlier on in the brew (12 to 24 hours).
Indeed protozoa do start multiplying in large numbers after 24 hours; usually between 36 and 48 hours. What you want to see is flagellates and/or naked amoebae mostly. As the protozoa multiply and consume the bacteria/archaea there is a sweet zone when the fungal hyphae resume growth because there are less bacteria/archaea munching on them. It is this sweet zone that those of us with microscopes can observe and take advantage of. This is the point where you have the optimum functional nutrient cycling microbial consortia and this is the optimum time to apply the CT for nutrient cycling purposes
Salutations,
Tim

So do we want the fungi when inoculating the soil? and the bacteria for digesting the above ground litter and meals?

Or do we need to hit the sweet zone for the digestion of litter? I assume that is what you mean by nutrient cycling.

[Tim Wilson]

So do we want the fungi when inoculating the soil? and the bacteria for digesting the above ground litter and meals?

Or do we need to hit the sweet zone for the digestion of litter? I assume that is what you mean by nutrient cycling.

Microbial nutrient cycling, in rudimentary terms; The roots of plants attract certain bacteria/archaea and species of fungal hyphae and the bacteria/archaea are fed by substances released by the roots, the bacteria/archaea are eaten by protozoa, nematodes, rotifers, etc. and these larger microorganisms in turn release nutrients (usually a form of nitrogen) which are bioavailable to the roots of the plants. The fungal hyphae have various roles, depending on the species but many serve as nutrient providers in a symbiotic relationship with roots. I believe that most which we are able to grow in compost teas serve as degraders of organic material. They also bind soil particles together aggregately, store nutrients later released when they die and are eaten by bacteria/archaea, retain moisture in the soil and provide pathways for microbes. This is what I mean by microbial nutrient cycling.

All of these organisms will contribute to the chain of organic matter digestion in combination with bugsnworms.

NOTE: I use the term bacteria/archaea because in the late 70s it was discovered that organisms previously thought to be bacteria actually are uniquely structured and able to digest differently based on their membrane. We cannot tell them apart visually (need complex testing) so I have chosen to name them both.

Salutations,
Tim

[tadhussey]

Say Tad, Does Gerry's idea of increasing fungal dominance by using oatmeal work?
He said the KIS compost was already activated fungally. Is that true?

We are adding foods for the fungi to activate it prior to shipping. One of these ingredients is baby oatmeal. Jeff talks about it in his book. Tim and I share a healthy skepticism as to the benefits of this particular species of fungi, but we will continue our current practices until I see data that shows something contraty relating to it's benefit. The theory is that Dr. Ingham states that fungi with wide fungal hyphal diameter greater than 3 microns are beneficial, the larger the hyphae, the more beneficial the species. The baby oatmeal does create excellent fungal hyphae, so this would fit with that theory. However, it is just a theory until proven that this particular species that the baby oatmeal serves as a food substrate for is actually beneficial. It may be completely innocuous, we don't really know.

[Smallaxe]

Thanks Tim,
Excellent explanation and it only makes sense once I thought about it. Compost is 'digested matter' so the majority of your aerobic bacteria/archaea are going to be digesters in the resultant brew.

AM fungi are going to be a little more difficult to get into a compost tea, because they have a different growth environment and enjoy 'root exudates' for lunch as opposed to left over leaves and such.

This brings us to Tad's point about the 3 micron hyphae being 'beneficial' (the jury is still out and, thanks for the frankness), and I am assuming that this oatmeal fungi is an above ground hyphae that would be incompetition with - for example - Red Thread.

So the baby oatmeal fungi really isn't pretending to be advertised as an AM fungi. Perhap is akin to the bacteria/archaea group. Is that correct?
Do we really have a good AM fungi innoculant?

In my mind it boils down to this. CT is more valuable as a topical app., than it is, as an innoculant for the soil itself. It is a 180 degree turn from what I thought I understood about CT yesterday.

Or am I mistaken and AM along with bacteria/archaea, can both, be brewed in a good batch of compost placed the tea bags?

I was told today that I tend to overthink things to the point of redundancy. They may be correct :)

Thanks again to Tad and Tim.

[DUSTYCEDAR]

i will try it on red thread this season cant wait to see how it works

[ICT Bill]

Tim,
Excellent post and excellent insight

So the cycle of compost teas changes all of the time as different food and environment are availalbe to whoever is in the mix at the time.

So if you get good at making compost teas, and want to apply for a specific reason it is timing that is most critical rather than a certain reciepe.
More fungal, more time
More protozoa, more time
More bacterial, less time

Someone help me with this, I believe (for some reason) that in turf (and most applications) if you are working with lifeless soils the bacteria are the best ones to get back first.

[Tim Wilson]

Thanks Tim,
Excellent explanation and it only makes sense once I thought about it. Compost is 'digested matter' so the majority of your aerobic bacteria/archaea are going to be digesters in the resultant brew.

AM fungi are going to be a little more difficult to get into a compost tea, because they have a different growth environment and enjoy 'root exudates' for lunch as opposed to left over leaves and such.

This brings us to Tad's point about the 3 micron hyphae being 'beneficial' (the jury is still out and, thanks for the frankness), and I am assuming that this oatmeal fungi is an above ground hyphae that would be incompetition with - for example - Red Thread.

So the baby oatmeal fungi really isn't pretending to be advertised as an AM fungi. Perhap is akin to the bacteria/archaea group. Is that correct?
Do we really have a good AM fungi innoculant?

In my mind it boils down to this. CT is more valuable as a topical app., than it is, as an innoculant for the soil itself. It is a 180 degree turn from what I thought I understood about CT yesterday.

Or am I mistaken and AM along with bacteria/archaea, can both, be brewed in a good batch of compost placed the tea bags?

I was told today that I tend to overthink things to the point of redundancy. They may be correct :)

Thanks again to Tad and Tim.

I assume by AM you mean mycorrhizal fungi (AVM?). These species of fungi do not grow in compost tea; only in symbiotic association with roots.

Compost tea, in my opinion, is more useful in the soil at the root/soil interface so yes it is a soil innoculant.

Bacteria/archaea are prokaryotes (bacteria like) not related to fungi.

Salutations,
Tim

[Tim Wilson]

Tim,
Excellent post and excellent insight

So the cycle of compost teas changes all of the time as different food and environment are availalbe to whoever is in the mix at the time.

So if you get good at making compost teas, and want to apply for a specific reason it is timing that is most critical rather than a certain reciepe.
More fungal, more time
More protozoa, more time
More bacterial, less time

Someone help me with this, I believe (for some reason) that in turf (and most applications) if you are working with lifeless soils the bacteria are the best ones to get back first.

Timing is important but the proportions and types of foods to promote certain organisms is also important.

I would think that laying down a high population of bacteria in 'lifeless' soil makes sense. This may provide a basis of support for the higher functioning organisms. It appears that the bacteria/archaea came first evolutionarily.

Tim

[tadhussey]

The idea that bacteria would be helpful in lifeless soil does fit with plant succession table, as bacterial soils are the first to repopulate with plants. Grasses do prefer a slightly bacterial soil, but are close to 50:50. From talking with and reading Dr. Ingham's work though, it sounds like most soils are lacking in fungi more than bacteria, so I would think a balanced tea would still be the best bet. It's easy to get bacterial growth, both in soil and tea, fungi can be a bit tougher to cultivate and are much easier to destroy.

[Smallaxe]

Perfect!! Thanks guys.
I think I have a clear, 'basic' understanding that will guide my work with CT, this summer.

The bacteria/archaea feed the rest of the world. As long as they are present and fed the rest of the system falls into place. (Generally speaking and over-simplified, I know)
However, all we got to do... is get them onto the liveless lawns , get them fed, ...then, ...keep them fed.

It is the fundamental principle that needs to be addressed first, ...b4 worrying about NPK or even ph. Until the microbe population is stable, everything else is just treating the symptoms.

Experience should then teach me how to recognize the point of 'lifelessness' that CT would be desireable.
Or perhaps to see where a good batch of tea will help balance the nutrient cycling system in a particular area in which it got out of whack somehow.

I'm with Dusty, ...Can't wait to get started.

[Kiril]

If you have suitable substrates present, I would think the balanced approach would be the best route to take. I do agree with the comments on a bacterial start for the reasons mentioned.

I also agree with Tim that CT is most useful as a soil inoculant.

[NattyLawn]

i will try it on red thread this season cant wait to see how it works

Why not get the tea down right before red thread season starts? Then you will have the organisms in the soil to combat the red thread. Remember, you have the host plant (turf), the pathogen, the pathogen's food substrate, and environmental conditions (stress) for that pathogen to thrive. If you already have the organisms in the soil to keep the pathogen at bay, the diesease shouldn't thrive.

[ICT Bill]

Disease, in most but not all cases, like red thread is a sign of low diversity in the soil. These pathogens are opportunistic, if there is no competition they can easily get a foothold and dominate an area.

Its what they do and have done for hundreds of thousands of years.

You have to ask yourself why does it happen here but not over there. Diversity and density of good guys I would think.

My neighbors lawn for instance, he had to completely refurbish his lawn last fall from brown patch, almost wiped out the entire lawn. You could see the DMZ line between his and mine, I had a couple of small patches where I was affected.

[DUSTYCEDAR]

Why not get the tea down right before red thread season starts? Then you will have the organisms in the soil to combat the red thread. Remember, you have the host plant (turf), the pathogen, the pathogen's food substrate, and environmental conditions (stress) for that pathogen to thrive. If you already have the organisms in the soil to keep the pathogen at bay, the diesease shouldn't thrive.

u r right and i will try that and i also want to see if it will work as a rescue treatment for a lawn that already has red thread

[ICT Bill]

Did someone ask about bugz in a compost tea, this is what is in our #2 Instant Compost Tea. In extremely dense populations

Bacillus subtilis, Bacillus pumilis, Bacillus megaterium, Bacillus azotofixans , Bacillus laterosporus , Bacillus licheniformis , Bacillus polymyxa, Bacillus azotoformans , Glomus aggregatum, Glomus clarum, Glomus deserticola , Glomus intraradices , Glomus monosporus, Glomus dussii, Glomus mosseae , Glomus margarita , Paraglomus brasilianum , Trichoderma harzianum , Trichoderma Viride, Glocladium Virens , Trichoderma koningii , Trichoderma polysporum

That is what is on our label

Dusty, there is nothing wrong with spraying compost teas when the soil is cold, I wouldn't suggest frozen as the good guys can't get down in the soil, but cold is fine
You have to remember, when conditions are not right these good guys have mechanisms to shut down and wait til the environment is better. They may not be doing anything, but when conditions get better, they are on the march.

[cspaugh]

Those sound like some sexy bugs you got. I think we talked a little about this, You were loking for a lesco in ATL, to distribute? There are 3 stores within 30 miles of me, zip 30680. If you dont end up down here, it probably wouldent be economical for me to ship the weight of liquids, in such small quantities, or would it ? What is this biology in a bottle called, and can i read more about it somewhere? ie website, just dont know if you can post that? Thanks..So is this what the bottle looks like on the inside:weightlifter::weightlifter::weightlifter::weightlifter: just had to add that:laugh:

[ICT Bill]

I do believe that they allow us to do that now

ICT Organics

www.ictorganics.com

At list price it works out to $0.67 per 1000 square feet

[Kiril]

Bill

Do you have any data on what benefits/functions those microbes provide?

[ICT Bill]

We have a new person on board that is doing that as we speak. I have A LOT of different items, it just hasn't been put in a simple form. Shep is going to do just that

Shepherd Ogden, has been on the organic side since the early 70's with his organic seed business, he worked for Burpee and Meyer seed, he was a regular on Martha Stewart, and has written 5 books on different organic subjects. His last gig was with safelawns.org, working with Paul Tukey, a non profit that is trying to raise awareness legislatively of the dangers of pesticides. He has a very long list of accomplishements, very long. We are proud to have him.

Excellent all around guy

[Tim Wilson]

Did someone ask about bugz in a compost tea, this is what is in our #2 Instant Compost Tea. In extremely dense populations

Bacillus subtilis, Bacillus pumilis, Bacillus megaterium, Bacillus azotofixans , Bacillus laterosporus , Bacillus licheniformis , Bacillus polymyxa, Bacillus azotoformans , Glomus aggregatum, Glomus clarum, Glomus deserticola , Glomus intraradices , Glomus monosporus, Glomus dussii, Glomus mosseae , Glomus margarita , Paraglomus brasilianum , Trichoderma harzianum , Trichoderma Viride, Glocladium Virens , Trichoderma koningii , Trichoderma polysporum

That is what is on our label

Dusty, there is nothing wrong with spraying compost teas when the soil is cold, I wouldn't suggest frozen as the good guys can't get down in the soil, but cold is fine
You have to remember, when conditions are not right these good guys have mechanisms to shut down and wait til the environment is better. They may not be doing anything, but when conditions get better, they are on the march.

For ease of reference I'm using this quote to answer Kiril in a limited fashion.

The bacillus type bacteria are bacteria (to my knowledge) which normally occur in healthy soils and function as nutrient fixers and processors. (mostly nitrogen fixers). They of course would serve secondary roles as dinner for other microbes. The glomus and paraglomus group are (to my knowledge) mycorrhizal species of fungi which interact with the roots of plants in symbiotic nutrient exchange roles. I would assume these are in a spore form in the product, as they do not grow into hyphae unless in contact with their host root. The trichoderma and glodlacium are fungi species which have been discovered to work to protect plants from pathonegetic species of fungi and even destroy active infections. They do this through the release of destructive enzymes and displacement - space occupation. I would quess that they would be present in spore form in the product.

Again, I have limited knowledge in this area.

Salutations,
Tim

[Tim Wilson]

'glocladium' I meant & NOT 'glodlacium' It appears my fingers got brains of their own in hitting the keys.

[phasthound]

I’m just playing catch up here, been too busy to check in lately.

OK so now we coat a leaf with all of these gun toteing fungi and guess what Fallujah!!!
Bill……….and we’er doing this to promote democracy of leaf surfaces right?:)

That is not accurate.

C’mon Gerry. Just stop it. :hammerhead:

And then a great informative, non-biased discussion followed. Wonderful stuff guys!
My input is short, strive for diversity when making a general purpose tea. The plants will chose what they want.

[Smallaxe]

The trichoderma and glodlacium are fungi species which have been discovered to work to protect plants from pathonegetic species of fungi and even destroy active infections. They do this through the release of destructive enzymes and displacement - space occupation.

Salutations,
Tim

These trichoderma and glocladium guys must exist indigenously in all parts of the world. Does anyone know what the basic difference is between a lawn that favors disease fungi and a lawn that favors the beneficials?

The reason I ask is that - if there are macro-corrections that need to happen in order for the fungi to thrive; then we need to know what they are and make those corrections to ensure that their new home is congenial. Otherwise the tea goes to waste and no results are seen. We may be raising gerbils in a pond and not even know it.

[ICT Bill]

Bang - Bang - Bang there is that drum noise again

Soil Organic Matter and beneficial microorganisms the basis of organic soil care (lawn care)

I am told, no emperical evidence, that basically the same fungi and bacteria live all over our planet.

I am sure there are cases, like camels, where they live in one place better than another

[Tim Wilson]

These trichoderma and glocladium guys must exist indigenously in all parts of the world. Does anyone know what the basic difference is between a lawn that favors disease fungi and a lawn that favors the beneficials?

The reason I ask is that - if there are macro-corrections that need to happen in order for the fungi to thrive; then we need to know what they are and make those corrections to ensure that their new home is congenial. Otherwise the tea goes to waste and no results are seen. We may be raising gerbils in a pond and not even know it.

In my opinion the pathogens result often from the overuse of macronutrients (NPK), especially chemical based. Microbial horticulture is based on the microbes assimilating and processing nutrients from organic matter rather than prepared fertilizers.

Some people combine microbial amendments with macronutrients but usually when high yield crops are necessary. I don't think this applies to landscape.

Tim

[ICT Bill]

microbes assimilating

OHHH cool, startrek

"YOU will be assimilated" I think I had too much Saki at dinner.

put that in your lawn mower and smoke it
I think I need to post something about fungal snowflakes or penguin snowflakes

[Kiril]

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j296/zakrzew/borgUnclesam.jpg

[Smallaxe]

In my opinion the pathogens result often from the overuse of macronutrients (NPK), especially chemical based. Microbial horticulture is based on the microbes assimilating and processing nutrients from organic matter rather than prepared fertilizers.

Some people combine microbial amendments with macronutrients but usually when high yield crops are necessary. I don't think this applies to landscape.

Tim

Thanks Tim, for helping me think this through,

It would make sense that the rapid growth of excessive NPK makes it more disease prone. Just like shrubs and trees.

I was thinking of picking out similar areas in every lawn, this year, and spraying half of those areas with CT.

I expect little result and perhaps 0 survival of the tea bugs, in the "chemical soup lawns".
Would it help to feed them anything to keep them alive long enough to see a difference? Perhaps increase the survival rate to 7 of 9 or so.

[ICT Bill]

expect little result and perhaps 0 survival of the tea bugs, in the "chemical soup lawns".
Would it help to feed them anything to keep them alive long enough to see a difference? Perhaps increase the survival rate to 7 of 9 or so.

Actually most fungi are excellent for bio-remeadiation. They eat stuff like that for lunch and love it.

Paul Stamets, fungi perfecti, has done test for the government on soils at mining sites that are loaded with heavy metals that are extremely toxic. It not only sequestered the heavy metals but you can eat the fungi too. Completely non-toxic

[Smallaxe]

So the fungi in the tea will do well in the chemical soup lawns. How about the bacteria having a shot at aggregating soil particles, building colonies, and such before the next bio-assault occurs?

Let's say they got 6 weeks to make a difference before they are possibly killed off by a pesticide. Will the 'organic' residue in the lawn that exists, be adequate?
Will a shot of molasses or something be of any use?

[ICT Bill]

Let's say they got 6 weeks to make a difference before they are possibly killed off by a pesticide. Will the 'organic' residue in the lawn that exists, be adequate?
Will a shot of molasses or something be of any use?

In organic land care that is called a disturbance. Flood, fire, construction, pesticides, etc. are considered disturbanaces. What they do is push back the biology further and further in succession. I wish I had a picture of the chart on succession in soils. I know its on the USDA site somewhere

basically soils that biologically inactive are at the beginning, with your typical shrub/perrennial bed somewhere in the middle and old growth forests at the other end
In the beginning there are some bacteria but little fungi, the preferred ratio for turf is 1 to 1, shrub beds (If you think about it, we don't rototill our shrub beds) are some where around 1 to 10 bacterial to fungal. Old growth forests can be 1 to 100, or 1 to 1000 bacterial to fungal.

What we try to do with bio-assays is determine where the soil is in succession and try to correct the balance for the type of plant growing there. So if we have turf at 1 to 1 and someone sprays pesticides, lets say a fungicide. Well it probably wipes out a lot of the fungi in the soil and as a result it is probably more 10 to 1 or 20 to 1 bacterial to fungal.

We can adjust our teas for fungal foods and try to get a hold of some really fungal compost like vermicompost or some really old leaf compost.

Rototilling - Major disturbance especially for the fungi
No till farming pereserves the top soil by not disturbing the fungal hyphi in the soil, the fungi knit the soil into aggregates and hold it together creating increased soil porosity and soil fertility and better results with less input.

Roto tilling your garden sure looks great when your done, all fluffy and weed free. What you have done is created a major disturbance for the biology, the fungi have to start all over again, the group of bacteria that have formed colonies are now scattered all around. Your garden is now at the beginning of succession and you have to work very hard to get it balanced for the plants you want put in there.
OH screw it, spray it with miserable grow

[Smallaxe]

That was a good description of the process. Thanks, Bill.

What I gathered from that is the most important element is - time. Any incidental food supplies will not be usable any time soon because the populations need to build first.

Of course in the 'chemical soups' they may never get that chance.

Most are already prime turf areas, but I would like to see what changes may or may not occur with an app. of tea.

[ICT Bill]

I found the succession chart, go here (Canada soil food web site). It is on the 6 th page

http://www.compost.org/conf2006/9compostTeaParty/SoilFoodWebScience.pdf

[Tim Wilson]

Actually most fungi are excellent for bio-remeadiation. They eat stuff like that for lunch and love it.

Paul Stamets, fungi perfecti, has done test for the government on soils at mining sites that are loaded with heavy metals that are extremely toxic. It not only sequestered the heavy metals but you can eat the fungi too. Completely non-toxic

The work done by Paul is spectacular, however the species of mushroom they are using are very specific. Yes mushrooms are the fruiting bodies of fungal hyphae (in many cases). It is possible that we are going to have some of these specific degraders in a CT but certainly not a sure thing. I would therefore suggest a diverse CT applied fairly often. You can apply food sources for the microbes; fish hydrolysate, molasses, kelp, compost, etc. If you contact fungiperfecti.com, they may be able to sell you a mushroom species that is indigeonous to grass and by seeding the 'chemical soup' areas with the spores or starter kit you may have the perfect machine for restoring these areas. Your customers would need to accept the appearance of mushrooms in their yards. If they are lucky they could be edible. {Or in the case of Bill with his assimilation startrek talk, magic <grin>). It would be worth contacting them to see if they have any ideas. Maybe I'll do that. In this area a mushroom we see growing in grassy areas is the 'shaggy mane' also 'puff balls' & another we just call a field mushroom. They are all edible.

Bill, Have you used a fungi based amendment for successful chemical degradation?

Salutations,
Tim

[Tim Wilson]

I found the succession chart, go here (Canada soil food web site). It is on the 6 th page

http://www.compost.org/conf2006/9compostTeaParty/SoilFoodWebScience.pdf

Bill,

What is the value of that link (pdf)? It is a little hard to follow and a bit nonsensicle. Plus they show a picture of mold growing on the top of leafy compost and call it beneficial fungi.

Tim

[ICT Bill]

Bill, Have you used a fungi based amendment for successful chemical degradation?
I have not personally but our technical advisor Kevin John Richardson has in the passed. He has done some off the wall unbelievable things, like stream restoration with biologically (fungal) enhanced mulch.

What is the value of that link (pdf)? It is a little hard to follow and a bit nonsensicle. Plus they show a picture of mold growing on the top of leafy compost and call it beneficial fungi.

On page six it has a picture of the succession chart that I was talking about earlier

[Smallaxe]

The work done by Paul is spectacular, however the species of mushroom they are using are very specific. Yes mushrooms are the fruiting bodies of fungal hyphae (in many cases). It is possible that we are going to have some of these specific degraders in a CT but certainly not a sure thing. I would therefore suggest a diverse CT applied fairly often. You can apply food sources for the microbes; fish hydrolysate, molasses, kelp, compost, etc. If you contact fungiperfecti.com, they may be able to sell you a mushroom species that is indigeonous to grass and by seeding the 'chemical soup' areas with the spores or starter kit you may have the perfect machine for restoring these areas. Your customers would need to accept the appearance of mushrooms in their yards. If they are lucky they could be edible. {Or in the case of Bill with his assimilation startrek talk, magic <grin>). It would be worth contacting them to see if they have any ideas. Maybe I'll do that. In this area a mushroom we see growing in grassy areas is the 'shaggy mane' also 'puff balls' & another we just call a field mushroom. They are all edible.

Bill, Have you used a fungi based amendment for successful chemical degradation?

Salutations,
Tim

So it may help to give a hit of molasses to the yard before applying the CT.

I wish this client was interested in detoxing the lawn.
I could even do it for him without growing mushrooms!! :)
That ain't gonna happen no time soon, that is why I wasn't sure just how to slip in the app. amongst all the chem sprays.

It will be interesting to see if there are any results in that yard.

[DUSTYCEDAR]

just slip it in and let us know what happens

[heritage]

In organic land care that is called a disturbance. Flood, fire, construction, pesticides, etc. are considered disturbanaces. What they do is push back the biology further and further in succession. I wish I had a picture of the chart on succession in soils. I know its on the USDA site somewhere

basically soils that biologically inactive are at the beginning, with your typical shrub/perrennial bed somewhere in the middle and old growth forests at the other end
In the beginning there are some bacteria but little fungi, the preferred ratio for turf is 1 to 1, shrub beds (If you think about it, we don't rototill our shrub beds) are some where around 1 to 10 bacterial to fungal. Old growth forests can be 1 to 100, or 1 to 1000 bacterial to fungal.

What we try to do with bio-assays is determine where the soil is in succession and try to correct the balance for the type of plant growing there. So if we have turf at 1 to 1 and someone sprays pesticides, lets say a fungicide. Well it probably wipes out a lot of the fungi in the soil and as a result it is probably more 10 to 1 or 20 to 1 bacterial to fungal.

We can adjust our teas for fungal foods and try to get a hold of some really fungal compost like vermicompost or some really old leaf compost.

Rototilling - Major disturbance especially for the fungi
No till farming pereserves the top soil by not disturbing the fungal hyphi in the soil, the fungi knit the soil into aggregates and hold it together creating increased soil porosity and soil fertility and better results with less input.

Roto tilling your garden sure looks great when your done, all fluffy and weed free. What you have done is created a major disturbance for the biology, the fungi have to start all over again, the group of bacteria that have formed colonies are now scattered all around. Your garden is now at the beginning of succession and you have to work very hard to get it balanced for the plants you want put in there.
OH screw it, spray it with miserable grow


Hi Bill,

This Post has opened my eyes a great deal....Thank you.

Understanding ratios of Bac to Fungi, makes perfect sense.

I found it by the way, looking at Red Thread Turf Disease........I have another approach now for a "brand new" client :)

They have LOTS of leaves coming off trees this fall as I will be sure to have them mulch many of them in INSTED of constantly removing Clippings/Leaves from the specific area of concern.

This should bump up the Carbon in the soil and Stimulate the Bac and Fungi.


Thanks,

Pete

[tadhussey]

I would spray the shredded leaves down with a good compost tea to add additional beneficial biology and speed up the decomposition process.

[phasthound]

Hi Bill,

This Post has opened my eyes a great deal....Thank you.

Understanding ratios of Bac to Fungi, makes perfect sense.

I found it by the way, looking at Red Thread Turf Disease........I have another approach now for a "brand new" client :)

They have LOTS of leaves coming off trees this fall as I will be sure to have them mulch many of them in INSTED of constantly removing Clippings/Leaves from the specific area of concern.

This should bump up the Carbon in the soil and Stimulate the Bac and Fungi.


Thanks,

Pete

Hi Pete,

Music to my ears, that's sustainability at it's best. :clapping:
IMO, all plant residue should stay on the property.

[treegal1]

its like cash in hand.....